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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#51 | Back to Top03-17-2007 06:16:06 AM

iruka
Rose Smilee
Registered: 11-11-2006
Posts: 134

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

brian wrote:

Another revolutionary idea given us from all version is that planetariums are shown as romantic places to take a date.

The other day my boyfriend told me he's taking me to a planetarium for a date next week. I LOL'd.

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#52 | Back to Top03-18-2007 02:24:26 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

Maarika wrote:

I believe Anthy's and Akio's relationship could be considered as one of the reasons why Anthy's and Utena's relationship would likely become sexual in the end.... Now let's say Anthy and Utena are reunited (which I think was meant to be that way)....I think the same could be said about Utena, but I'm a bit uncertain about her since she seemed quite unaware of her own sexuality for the most part.

A lot of that comes down to purely personal interpretation. There is lots of evidence for this. If you go with this interpretation keep in mind that there is evidence that Anthy and Utena's relationship was sexual from some indeterminate point earlier on. The recurring scene where they fall into bed simultaneously implies that.

Utena does not seem to repress her sexuality so much; it's more like it is out of alignment with her mind and heart and ideals.

If Utena had even the tiniest bit of lust for Anthy, Anthy would have  motivation from the start to fan that spark into a flame, both for herself and for her role.

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#53 | Back to Top03-18-2007 02:31:30 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

iruka wrote:

brian wrote:

Another revolutionary idea given us from all version is that planetariums are shown as romantic places to take a date.

The other day my boyfriend told me he's taking me to a planetarium for a date next week. I LOL'd.

Hee, lucky. I went to a planetarium at a science museum in Paris the other week and although the projector made me glee, I fell asleep about fifteen minutes into it. emot-gonk It was at least partly because the entire lecture was in French (and my French is very bad), but I was just tired anyway. And I had a headache. ...I'm sure Akio wouldn't buy THAT as an excuse, but I think his "projector" is a bit more interesting. Mwahahahaha. school-devil


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#54 | Back to Top03-19-2007 03:05:02 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

Major re-edit:
It's surprising how the double-entendres and innuendo show up more starkly in the scripts:

Akio:  That's wonderful. That jam is made from the rose hips that Anthy raises,
Akio:  stewed with brandy and sugar.
........
........
........
Anthy:  Would you like some too? It's very good.
Utena:  Nanami! What're you doing? You're shocking Anthy.
Nanami:  I don't want any of that jam.
Utena:  Well you don't have to get so violent about it.
Utena:  Wait a sec. I said wait!
Nanami:  What?
Utena:  Apologize to Akio-san and Himemiya!
Nanami:  Are you stupid?! You don't have a clue what's going on, do you?!
Utena:  Geez, what the heck is she babbling about?
Akio:  I'm sure she's got a lot on her mind. About siblings and such.
........
........
........
Anthy:  And it really was good, too.
***
Here is Anthy herself describing her own jam:

Utena:  That Nanami! How can she hog your bed when she's sponging off you?!"
Anthy:  I'll sleep in my brother's room, so don't worry.
Utena:  Well, I guess Nanami's got it rough too.
Utena:  Why can't she realize her bad brother is deceiving her?
Anthy:  People find it hard to doubt those they've fallen in love with.
Anthy:  They can't even imagine they're being deceived and used.
http://www.ohtori.nu/scripts/Episode_31.htm
and
http://www.ohtori.nu/scripts/Episode_32.htm

Last edited by brian (03-20-2007 05:11:52 PM)

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#55 | Back to Top03-28-2007 08:41:54 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

I had forgotten the scene in which a young Rose Bride Anthy clings to an adolescent Dios, presumably just after their "fall" (I'm not sure why I always call it that), and she says, "I understand, from now on we'll live to help each other."

I think it's pretty plain what Akio and Anthy's relationship is in the series; we see it as it unfolds, and we hear Anthy's thoughts on it in her conversations with Utena (most of the advice/wisdom Anthy doles out relates to herself), and in Anthy's confessions.

Talking about how it started is always going to be conjecture.

Apparently, the incest taboo exists in all known cultures, at least among "immediate" family.  There's been research into commonalities of the taboo between cultures, and the reasons for incest aversion (nature or nurture?).

This article (http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto … 00013.html) wrote:

Indeed, says Erickson, "the lives of both the perpetrators and victims of incest are marked by rejection and emotional deprivation during childhood." When attachment is impaired early in life--through separation or parental neglect--people grow up confusing familial attraction with sexual attraction.

This is how I see Nanami/Touga and Anthy/Akio.  I have this notion that I've read somewhere that children who are abandoned by their parents tend to develop very strong attachment disorders.  (In Nanami & Touga's case, not only are they adopted (and therefore presumably abandoned by their biological parents), but their adoptive parents are emotionally distant.)

In Anthy and Akio's case, they probably didn't have parents.  Since I see them as being, in some sense, gods or mythological beings, I'm not sure how that would have impacted them.  But certainly they were children, and in Anthy's case, without any preoccupation, she was likely overly attached to her brother as the only person in her life.  After Dios died and Anthy became the Rose Bride, that declaration, "We'll live to help each other," indicates the kind of attachment that could end with them growing up to confuse familial attraction with sexual attraction.

I have trouble reconciling "real-life" incest (which makes me nauseated) with the symbolic intent of incest in fiction.  Good fictional characters can be analyzed like real people, because they are meant to represent real people (presumably).  So just because they're not real people doesn't mean it's not "real" incest or "real" sexual abuse within the context of the story....

Interesting: http://www.jiskha.com/social_studies/ps … ncest.html

And, um, wow--is this an Utena fan? http://www.alleydog.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1075

santa (http://www.alleydog.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1075) wrote:

Prepuberty/puberty stuff. Peter Pan stuff, possibly.

I'm pitting a "before genital sexuality" against a distorted "after genital sexuality" from the point of view of a possibly sexually molested child. I want to make a point about how the dreams of childhood and childish, nonsexual love can be assaulted by immature adults or in a wider perspective the ideas of an immature adult society.

Grow up we must - but into what context? How are we received?

I'm considering using a backstory of actual incest to portray my lead characters fear of growing up - and the very real tendency of some greedy adults to prey on the dreams of childhood and turn them into oppressive lies, for their own tragic ends.

So, anyway, just a few thoughts on their relationship.  And sexual abuse can involved multiple "rapes."  I found Gio's statements on how it's hard to determine 'where coercion becomes a robbing of consent' insightful.

I think there's a tendency to focus on how "sexy" Akio is and how he's probably good in bed, etc. and on Anthy's witchery.  Neither of those things is really very relevant to the actual sexual act between them, I think.  Except to the extent that those things have something to say about each of their personalities. 

I'm very attached to the idea that neither of them is really having very much fun.  In the shallowest sense, they may have very "good", physically adept  sex, but how much enjoyment can you really get out of sex after it's become about power and self-destruction?

I just think there's far too much negativity in both of them, and between the two of them, to really enjoy it.  That may have been less true before Utena came along; I imagine that even though physical enjoyment and orgasm are (probably) involved, they are *both* left feeling pretty bad, or even sick.  Their ability to ignore and deny those feelings are part of what makes Akio who and what he is and Anthy who and what she is.

A lot of sexual enjoyment is determined by a person's psychological state.  It's not only a physical act.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (03-28-2007 08:55:26 AM)


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#56 | Back to Top03-28-2007 03:07:33 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

Rats, such a fantastic posting and I don't have time this week to even read it properly. emot-mad

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I had forgotten the scene in which a young Rose Bride Anthy clings to an adolescent Dios, presumably just after their "fall" (I'm not sure why I always call it that), and she says, "I understand, from now on we'll live to help each other."

I always assumed that was before the fall, she remembers friendship with Dios as something in the distant past. Whatever it was with Akio, it was probably never real friendship. Friendship can sometimes be more important than love itself.

There are many kinds of incest -- moral, spiritual, intellectual, even political. All of these may also have some bearing.

Can't wait till I find time to read this and some of the other recent postings more thoroughly.

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#57 | Back to Top03-28-2007 04:07:14 PM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

brian wrote:

I always assumed that was before the fall

Why would she be wearing the Rose Bride dress, then?

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#58 | Back to Top03-28-2007 07:41:42 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

That's a good question, perhaps there is no real differences between the roles of Rose Bride and Princess in Anthy's mind and hence no need for different dresses. She apparently always wore red. Perhaps a Princess is a Rose Bride.

Maybe we should start a separate thread though.

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#59 | Back to Top03-28-2007 08:06:57 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

This is getting off-topic too but I just realized that Anthy and Nanami are two of the most perceptive and observant people in the series. Nanami especially has the makings of a good detective. Yet they have both deceived themselves. Deep down, they may both realize it, but aren't facing up to it.

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#60 | Back to Top03-29-2007 12:58:49 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

brian wrote:

This is getting off-topic too but I just realized that Anthy and Nanami are two of the most perceptive and observant people in the series. Nanami especially has the makings of a good detective. Yet they have both deceived themselves. Deep down, they may both realize it, but aren't facing up to it.

Don't forget Saionji. He was the guy who said "We must leave our coffins!" first, not to mention understand that the End of the World had tricked them. He's got more brain in that head of his than he bothers to show in the first or second arc.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#61 | Back to Top04-03-2007 07:56:11 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

My memory is fuzzy. Earlier on there is an episode in the Black Rose arc where he says something like, "Come here little mouse" and she grins and says "chu chu!" At that point they do seem to enjoy their adventures, almost seeming conspiratorial.

OTOH isn't that "Anthy in pain" leitmotiv always in the background music at those moments?

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#62 | Back to Top04-04-2007 04:35:00 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 963

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

This is all getting very interesting. emot-kekeemot-kekeemot-keke This is the best forum ever to lurk in.

brian wrote:

Maarika wrote:

I believe Anthy's and Akio's relationship could be considered as one of the reasons why Anthy's and Utena's relationship would likely become sexual in the end.... Now let's say Anthy and Utena are reunited (which I think was meant to be that way)....I think the same could be said about Utena, but I'm a bit uncertain about her since she seemed quite unaware of her own sexuality for the most part.

A lot of that comes down to purely personal interpretation. There is lots of evidence for this. If you go with this interpretation keep in mind that there is evidence that Anthy and Utena's relationship was sexual from some indeterminate point earlier on. The recurring scene where they fall into bed simultaneously implies that.

Utena does not seem to repress her sexuality so much; it's more like it is out of alignment with her mind and heart and ideals.

If Utena had even the tiniest bit of lust for Anthy, Anthy would have  motivation from the start to fan that spark into a flame, both for herself and for her role.

But doesn't Utena say something along the lines of "Anthy and I are purely---that is not to say that you aren't pure" to Juri regarding her relationship with Shiori? And, in a series where sex is almost always very obvious (Touga and his fangirls, Touga and Akio, Akio and Anthy), if they were having sex you'd think they'd be more obvious about it. They are the main characters, after all.


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#63 | Back to Top04-04-2007 06:43:27 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

YamPuff wrote:

But doesn't Utena say something along the lines of "Anthy and I are purely---that is not to say that you aren't pure" to Juri regarding her relationship with Shiori? And, in a series where sex is almost always very obvious (Touga and his fangirls, Touga and Akio, Akio and Anthy), if they were having sex you'd think they'd be more obvious about it. They are the main characters, after all.

Utena and Anthy's relationship was never sexual during the series, but post-series I find it very likely that it'll become that way. It's pretty obviously there on Anthy's side. Utena - well, despite her saying that, she's still innocent and pretty clueless [you can't really expect much from a person who thought Touga was her prince]. This isn't like every other anime, where the person you crush over in the 6th grade becomes your mate for life. Utena will change over time, and I'm pretty certain she'll accept Anthy's feelings and return them. Actually, I think it's safe to say they're already returned - Utena just doesn't realize it.

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#64 | Back to Top04-04-2007 08:18:33 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

We went back and forth about that in this thread.  I certainly see it that way, too.  When Utena says "pure", I think she means "We ARE not sexually involved and I don't want to be sexually involved with Anthy."  (Which, given Utena's personality, doesn't entirely preclude it post-series, as several people, including Hina above, have pointed out.)  But I still don't see them as being romantically inclined toward each other.

However, I dislike the implication that Anthy's sexualized behavior is in any way healthy.  You'd have to have a drastically different take on Anthy's personality to conceive of it that way.  Which is everyone's prerogative, of course--don't think I'm saying anyone has to agree with me!  But I still view Anthy's sexual behavior as compulsive and neurotic, based on self-loathing and a lifetime of sexual abuse (I guess you could see it as them both abusing each other, to reference the topic of this thread; since there's no way of really knowing who started it.).

If Anthy shows sexual inclinations toward Utena, it's because that's conditioned into her as a defense mechanism--as a method to get power, and because it's the only way she knows how to interact with people she cares about.  This is not right or healthy, and it does not follow that Anthy will ever have normal, healthy feelings of sexual desire for Utena.  The kind of feelings that would lead to a solid romantic and sexual relationship.

Though Anthy leaving Ohtori means "freedom" and "release", if you are practical, you know that she will have a long way to go.  She can't be made instantly whole, nor can she change the habits of a lifetime overnight.  One of the points made is that, now that she has left her coffin and stepped through Ohtori's gates, she will get there, certainly.  But I feel that it would be a very. bad. thing. for Anthy and Utena to be sexually involved for the wrong reasons (of which there are many).

Which is probably one of the reasons I avoid that interpretation altogether and find that it "cheapens" their relationship in my mind.  (One of the other reasons being that I don't have the healthiest attitudes toward sex, either. emot-biggrin  Shame indoctrination I haven't ever entirely shaken.)

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (04-04-2007 08:32:42 AM)


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#65 | Back to Top04-04-2007 10:40:43 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

rhyaniwyn wrote:

If Anthy shows sexual inclinations toward Utena, it's because that's conditioned into her as a defense mechanism--as a method to get power, and because it's the only way she knows how to interact with people she cares about.  This is not right or healthy, and it does not follow that Anthy will ever have normal, healthy feelings of sexual desire for Utena.  The kind of feelings that would lead to a solid romantic and sexual relationship.

Though Anthy leaving Ohtori means "freedom" and "release", if you are practical, you know that she will have a long way to go.  She can't be made instantly whole, nor can she change the habits of a lifetime overnight.  One of the points made is that, now that she has left her coffin and stepped through Ohtori's gates, she will get there, certainly.  But I feel that it would be a very. bad. thing. for Anthy and Utena to be sexually involved for the wrong reasons (of which there are many).

Which is probably one of the reasons I avoid that interpretation altogether and find that it "cheapens" their relationship in my mind.

You are really on a roll these days! Your postings are awesome.

I always like to connect the dots and when you look at all four stories and the additional art it become hard to avoid the sexual overtones. But you have really made a good point here, even if sex is removed the story still remains powerful and becomes more powerful in some ways. Love and friendship and honor are more important motifs than sex in this story. Before she changed her mind Saito apparently did not like to see them so "lovey-dovey" and perhaps she was right the first time.

In the movie manga Juri makes your point quite well. She looks down her nose at Anthy, (who is making a pass at Utena at the time) and says, "Making friends the only way we know how, eh?" To Juri, Anthy is the essence of dirty-minded impurity. But on a human level it is just part of her pathology.

This may be a mistake in the last three versions of the story make that the originall manga does not have. The sexual link between them is downplayed there and perhaps that is healthier in many ways.

There is the old admonition, "Don't sleep with your shrink." The corollary would have to be, "Don't try to make your lover be your psychiatrist."

Last edited by brian (04-04-2007 10:43:23 PM)

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#66 | Back to Top04-05-2007 05:56:53 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

Ah, thank you?  Maybe because I just did a re-watch?  school-devil

Several people have mentioned that fanfic...Jacquemart?  And how, in it, Utena and Anthy are presented as a couple in most ways, and apparently in love, but still haven't consummated the relationship sexually--because of Anthy.  I think that would have to be accurate.

But I think you make my point regarding romance v. friendship better than I do.  It's one of the reasons the relationship is ambiguous, I think.  Some people are obsessed with the idea of romance and feel it's a deeper and more meaningful connection.  I certainly have that tendency with other anime--do not try to tell me Amon and Robin aren't a couple. ;)

Ikuahara wrote:

Ikuhara-San: In reality, if I have a guy in the show, the love relationship gets to have a bigger role than the show.
Ikuhara-San: And that would be an interesting element, but I wouldn't want that to make that the scene-stealer of the show.
Ikuhara-San: Most other shoujo shows are in that direction.
Ikuhara-San: It's about who-and-who are getting together, or who-and-who are breaking up.
Ikuhara-San: I thought it would be a loss if that would be the big motif just because a girl was the main character.
Ikuhara-San: I think there could be more shows with other motives than that.

The way I read this is that most anime about girls IS ABOUT romance and their relationships, more than it is about other things.  This is very true of the Sailormoon manga--it's primarily a love story.  And I love that love story.  Girls are portrayed as being obsessed with boys and relationships (think about what the "normal students" in Ohtori talk about constantly).  This is true in American TV too--think about Buffy or Charmed or Grey's Anatomy.  There's a hell of a lot else going on that's pretty freaking important, but they're all obsessing about their relationships!  To me it's suggestive of trying to compartmentalize women, though you could argue that it reflects the real world, where women with families have to try to balance career and traditional female duties.  It still annoys me in a lot of cases.

Utena and Anthy are deliberately ambiguous in this respect on purpose.  To avoid this pitfall.  To make the story about other things, and to have a show with other motives than just that.


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#67 | Back to Top04-05-2007 10:03:24 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Utena and Anthy are deliberately ambiguous in this respect on purpose.  To avoid this pitfall.  To make the story about other things, and to have a show with other motives than just that.

I guess that's the case indeed. Also, It's clearly showed both in the anime and manga that Utena would much rather give up on someone she is romantically involved with for the sake of friendship.


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#68 | Back to Top05-04-2007 10:16:23 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

There is the line from the song that goes:

Let go of me,
Take my Revolution.

It seems to be Utena talking to Anthy although I am not sure. The accompanying graphic shows them being torn apart and Utena falling asleep, perhaps to be re-awakened by Anthy. It's quite a bit different from the way the movie ended. I don't think it means that they cannot come back to together to re-establish whatever kind of relationship it is that they have. Perhaps it just means that you must first belong to yourself before you can truly give yourself to another.

I don't know if this applies to Utena but Anthy must experience a period of autonomy and loneliness and, from that, self-confidence with which to build a healthy relationship. It is the place where Kozue and Nanami had not been able to go earlier on in the story.

The movie and movie-manga have more romantic endings but perhaps the first manga and the anime are showing a bit more psychological wisdom.

Utena seems to have decided that Anthy needs to enter this place of loneliness and creativity. Meanwhile Anthy has the ring, a keepsake of the future instead of the sword which had been a keepsake of the past.

Last edited by brian (05-04-2007 10:21:13 PM)

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#69 | Back to Top05-10-2007 11:19:45 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

brian wrote:

Utena seems to have decided that Anthy needs to enter this place of loneliness and creativity. Meanwhile Anthy has the ring, a keepsake of the future instead of the sword which had been a keepsake of the past.

I definitely agree that's true both of the series and the manga. Or not that Utena meant it that way, but that Anthy would need it. We watch the series and because it ends this way, we feel like Anthy's leaving the school is the ending of her trials. It's only a beginning, and that's reflected in the shot of her stepping out of the school and the music playing to her walking. The revolution for her was not the actual change, but only the internal decision that it was possible. There's progress in that but she has only gotten as far as realizing she should be her own person. She has to become her own person now.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#70 | Back to Top05-18-2007 09:10:08 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

Changing the topic slightly I am curious about something. Akio tells lots and lots of lies. I am starting to think that he NEVER tells the truth, or when he does, he uses it to bolster a lie. Can anyone point out a place where he tells the truth and nothing but the truth?

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#71 | Back to Top05-18-2007 10:08:36 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

Oh goodie, you're going to get me and Gio going.

As I'm at work, I can't vouch for any accuracy, but I've noticed that when one has fun lying one tends to like to tell the exact truth, but in such a way that no one believes it. Not that I have any personal experience with that kind of thing. *shifty eyes*

But you recall when Akio said he was turning the Chairman's Tower into a harem? That's what I always figured that was.


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#72 | Back to Top05-18-2007 10:14:19 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

I think when it comes to Akio you can't really say he's a liar or that he's honest. Just that he's completely full of shit. There are stunningly few lines in the series where Akio is called on to lie or tell the truth; usually he dodges those bullets by approaching the subject in metaphor. Superficially at least, he's only commenting on something, not asserting a truth or nontruth.

That said, I tend to find Akio's more manipulative moments to be ones where I think he is being honest, but the presentation of that honesty is itself a lie because it's deceptive somehow. Before his last duel, Akio tells Touga he's hoping for his success. This is a lie because that isn't at all in Akio's plan and he knows it won't happen. On the other hand, at face value, it's probably true; Akio's still overconfident but I think not quite enough that he'd have minded all that much if Utena was not the one fighting the Revolution duel. Pretty much everything he says and that transpires because he says it's so in that duel I think is true. (Pretty much. I don't think he can call how he feels about Anthy 'love' any more than Saionji can.) The stuff about his dreaming about the castle? Sure, why not? Prince is dead? Yep. There never was a prince? Well if you think about it...

I think his tears are quite honest. But he's full of shit when he sheds them. Anthy is aware of both sides of that coin.

Edit: DAMN YOU YASHA! I was gonna answer with the harem comment but I figured I wouldn't be the smartass for once. emot-biggrin

Last edited by Giovanna (05-18-2007 10:16:27 PM)


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#73 | Back to Top05-19-2007 12:26:21 AM

Hiraku
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Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

Wasn't there a saying, something about how there's a kernal of truth in every lie or something? emot-confused
I think what really stunned me was what Akio said about Utena. How then and now, Anthy has always been the witch. How then and now, he's the same man he's always been. And, by deduction, Utena, then and now, has always been a girl. (Actually, in that sense, you can argue that there never WAS the Prince in the first place)
If I'm correct on the way Akio processes his thoughts. He's not necessarily lying, maybe he wants to give an honest, objective view toward the issues he is being asked to answer, but somewhere inside him wants to deny it. And, that denial is probably the childish side of him who despises the reality and cruelty of society for destroying his Princely dream along with Anthy (In this case, then, you can argue that the Princes actually existed once, but is now dead). So, in that case, Akio wants to be "adult and mature" about things, but the "child" side of him struggles to deny things he KNOWS are right there, and that conflict leads to the grayish shade between truth and lies.

Last edited by Hiraku (05-19-2007 12:27:12 AM)

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#74 | Back to Top05-19-2007 07:04:44 AM

Clarice
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Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

Was Akio being at all honest when he spoke to Nemuro when he graduated? I guess that probably wouldn't be a good example given he said everything obliquely, and the audience doesn't have a damn clue what he is actually getting at when he says what he does. It's not as if we ever actually work out what happened to Nemuro when he left the school (if he indeed actually did). The thing is, though, the scene on the phone always struck me as being slightly unusual in the way Akio speaks to Nemuro. Although there's a touch of the usual Akio to it, he's more point-blank about explaining the situation than he usually is. Is he telling the truth? Because we're never actually shown the truth, I suppose there's no way of telling. It's just that I don't think he ever spoke as directly to anyone else of what he did to manipulate them (Yes. The boy called Mamiya that you were keeping with you from your lingering attachment to Tokiko, died a long time ago. I exploited the illusion you cherished in your memory so much that you even halted your own time. The period where you hid the possibility in your heart, not growing up, was useful.), and in the end, it seems Nemuro's use was over...did he have any further need to manipulate him?

But as I said, that may not be the best example because it's not like we know the truth of it either. emot-tongue


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#75 | Back to Top05-19-2007 02:59:33 PM

Giovanna
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Re: Messed up relationship - Anthy/Akio thread

GRR OPERA CRASHED FOR NO REASON AND ATE POST.

Ahem. I think that one goes back to what Yasha was saying. Akio's being honest in a situation where no one believes him because we know he's usually full of shit. Really though, what reason would he have at this point to lie? It wouldn't even be amusing. More than that, it does make sense things work that way in Ohtori. If you assume this is true, then any of the characters could technically be held in the same position. I don't think they usually are, because Akio seems to graduate them on time. Perhaps this is why the last duels are done the way they are, so they won't be 'held back' in the school by their illusions and inability to leave the coffin. (Like most adults, Akio takes on the responsibility of raising the young without ever having grown up himself. emot-keke)

What makes Mikage unique is that Mamiya was the plug on his progression, and nothing else. Akio could have graduated him at any time by crashing the illusion, and that's exactly what he did when Mikage's usefulness was spent. With someone like Touga or Saionji that isn't so clearly defined, because they operate not so much on an illusion but their own warped psyches. The illusion could disappear and they'd linger. Even Juri, you'd think remove Shiori and Juri will move on, but unlike Mikage, it's not as simple as taking the finger out of the dyke*. Juri's longing will keep her there.

For that matter, I think Akio was being quite honest with Tokiko as well, and his comments to her reinforce what he's saying to Nemuro. I just woke up so this is probably not the time for me to be analyzing, but ultimately, I tend to think Akio is honest until there's a very good reason not to be. On occasion, that reason is entertainment, and I think a lot of the stuff he says to Utena is fueled as much by his sense of humor as his scheming. In this case though, what else would he say that would be amusing and get the job done?

*I'm sorry.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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