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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top10-21-2006 12:03:59 AM

Rampala
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Bennington, VT
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 14
Website

The Origin of Dios

I'm currently doing weekly screenings with some of my friends to expose them to the glory that is Shoujo Kakumei Utena.  It's fun to watch my roommate make all these new realizations as it's her 2nd time through the series.  For me, it's my fourth time through and I'm starting to notice little bits and pieces all over, falling into place. 

Last week, we watched episodes 10-12, and 12 really got me thinking...

During the second duel between Utena and Touga, we get to hear Anthy's internal thoughts.  I cannot think of any other place in the series where this happens, which gives this moment special significance.   For reference, she says:

Anthy:  There's something strange about Tenjou-san.
Anthy:  She could even die...
Anthy:  Why is she fighting this duel?
Anthy:  It's over, Tenjou-san...
Anthy:  But I've seen this before. I know...
Anthy:  I know I have...
Anthy:  This is... this...
Anthy:  I know, just as it was back then...

Every other time I've seen this episode, I've always assumed Anthy was just referring to some point in time when her prince, Dios, came to save her.  This time watching it, though, I started thinking much harder... Deeper, Go Deeper

This incident is never revisited in the series, we never find out what "time" ("back then" is translated as "that time" on my DVD) Anthy was talking about.  So we must make assumptions.  Perhaps she is just thinking of Dios in general... but a particular time is clearly weighing on her mind.  What if the incident Anthy is remembering is what made Dios, Dios?

As we know from the conclusion of the series, Dios' power was taken from him-- something that is much more likely to happen if it was given to him in the first place.  Here out my nutty theory:

Anthy is in some sort of peril, her dear brother sweeps in to save the day and although he could be killed and against all odds, saves her and becomes her prince.  At the same time, however, his heroic act gains him the powers of Dios-- the power we hear about endlessly during the series, the power to revolutionize the world, the power of miracles, something eternal, a shining thing, etc.-- and he becomes the prince who makes all girls in the world princesses. 

This feeds into my own theory of why Utena is able to even wield the power of Dios in the first place and defeat so many duelists who are skillfully better than her.  That is, she is the only one fighting with Anthy in mind (her well being, that is, and not possessing her as the Rose Bride): the original intent of Dios. 

I'm sure other people have ideas about the significance of this scene-- thoughts?

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#2 | Back to Top10-21-2006 01:43:17 AM

UtenaFanGirl
Ballgoer
From: California
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 145
Website

Re: The Origin of Dios

when i think of the origin of dios the story plot in the movie cause its like the tieing of loose knots to me from the anime...

where dios was created from akio by anshi's powers untill it faided away and akio became back to himself that gio loves oh so very much...emot-biggrin ye shall never convert me ya hear gio!

i ono that was what i thought


Chu chuu CHU!!!!

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#3 | Back to Top10-21-2006 02:07:41 AM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: The Origin of Dios

That's an interesting idea. emot-keke I always just assumed that Dios and Anthy were always like that.. like archetypes. But I'm wondering if all of this went in circles forever. (Reminded of Frau Eva's fic on Empty Movement etc-love ) Dios the pure prince, him getting tired out, Anthy saving him and becoming the witch, Dios changing into his complete opposite, a new prince showing up, etc..  This theory reminds me of that, and the talk about the movie characters being an early representation of the series characters. Wow, all of that circling would be brain-breaking.

I remember the Shadow Girls' play with the prince and the witch, when they said that the prince's sister had to be a witch and couldn't be a princess because she was his sister. I wonder how much of that was true.. or did Anthy become a witch because she loved him more than anyone to the point where she wanted to save him and sacrifice it all?

But back on topic, I definitely think Anthy was referring to a specific event where Dios was saving her. I'm not sure if it was when he became Dios or if he always was Dios, though. But it could reflect on how Utena "becomes a prince" (it's debatable on when she became a prince) after trying to save Anthy.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (10-21-2006 02:07:56 AM)


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
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#4 | Back to Top10-21-2006 08:26:36 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: The Origin of Dios

Rampala wrote:

Anthy:  There's something strange about Tenjou-san.
Anthy:  She could even die...
Anthy:  Why is she fighting this duel?
Anthy:  It's over, Tenjou-san...
Anthy:  But I've seen this before. I know...
Anthy:  I know I have...
Anthy:  This is... this...
Anthy:  I know, just as it was back then...

Gaaah, not that quote again! There are so many ways to interprete it and...and it never ends!

(Some of the following is a bit off-topic)
It's obvious that this is the part where Utena reminds her of Dios as he used to be. I think "back then" simply refers to the period when Dios was saving princesses and before Anthy became the Witch. Could it be that Anthy herself had forgotten about "that time"? And Utena's actions brought out the memories of her past again? I can't really say if she also remembered about the promise Utena had made her because her behaviour later on didn't reveal much. Unlike Utena, I think she might have remembered, but she simply ignored it as she had lost all hope.
And then there's episode 34 (my favourite, hehe). Here are the last two lines of that episode:

Anthy:  I was looking at your face while you slept.
Anthy:  Who are you?


If Anthy hadn't remembered about the promise Utena had made her then this quote suggests that she herself was starting to remember it at this point. That's one way to interprete it. Or maybe she knew all along and asked that out of malice, knowing very well who Utena was but seeing what had become of her (the previous episode, remember?) she wanted to make her suffer for not keeping her promise. Or perhaps she still had a small hope that Utena would keep her promise (I don't really believe this one though). Any other possibilities? Most likely.

Rampala wrote:

Anthy is in some sort of peril, her dear brother sweeps in to save the day and although he could be killed and against all odds, saves her and becomes her prince.  At the same time, however, his heroic act gains him the powers of Dios-- the power we hear about endlessly during the series, the power to revolutionize the world, the power of miracles, something eternal, a shining thing, etc.-- and he becomes the prince who makes all girls in the world princesses.

Though the idea is very interesting, I disagree with this theory. I don't think Dios ever could (or tried to) save her because Anthy was his sister. This is somewhat strange, of all the people there was one he couldn't save (Why is that so? This is probably the part where we'd have to go even deeper.)

Another thing is this "Power of Dios", I don't think Dios could have had it in a literal sense, but more like the duelists were the ones to gain that power somehow since during the duelists' time, Dios was no more. Dios was the the manifestation of that power (the "light" of the world that the Witch took away).

Still, the question of his origin remains. Maybe he was just there?


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#5 | Back to Top10-22-2006 07:48:13 PM

skewed_tartan
Touga Topper
From: El Terra De Richard Nixon
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 55
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Re: The Origin of Dios

Anthy is in some sort of peril, her dear brother sweeps in to save the day and although he could be killed and against all odds, saves her and becomes her prince.  At the same time, however, his heroic act gains him the powers of Dios-- the power we hear about endlessly during the series, the power to revolutionize the world, the power of miracles, something eternal, a shining thing, etc.-- and he becomes the prince who makes all girls in the world princesses.

Maybe the entire dueling game is based on what Dios had to go through to become the Prince? I mena it may be what the duel's names repersent, each battle they go through is a a hurdle he overcame to become the Prince.  It make sense that (at first at least) Anshi and Dios/Akio truly thought if they repeated this process Akio/Dios become the Prince again. Of course it would have all become corrupted and revised over the years as any ritual does, but the basic idea would be the same.

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#6 | Back to Top08-30-2010 12:05:42 PM

tuomastahti
Banned
From: Finland / NSK
Registered: 08-29-2010
Posts: 40
Website

Re: The Origin of Dios

Rampala wrote:

This feeds into my own theory of why Utena is able to even wield the power of Dios in the first place and defeat so many duelists who are skillfully better than her.  That is, she is the only one fighting with Anthy in mind (her well being, that is, and not possessing her as the Rose Bride): the original intent of Dios.

But at this point, isn't Utena's main goal to play the role of her idealized prince? In this sense Anthy as an individual doesn't mean much to Utena; she just needs someone she can save. During episode 12 Utena says to both Wakaba and Tōga that she wants to take back who she was. That is to say, saving Anthy (as such) isn't her most important motive for duelling.

Utena's personality is developing in the series and eventually Anthy as herself becomes very important to her. This progress can be seen most clearly when Anthy attempts to commit suicide, but that was after the episode we're talking about here.

I have also thought that the duelling skills symbolize mental abilities such as self-confidence, concentration, courage etc, and the swords are mysterious tools for channelling or multiplexing these abilities. I think this would explain Utena's victories and also the defeat in episode 11. When it comes to the power of Dios, Utena is able to utilize it because her mind is similar to Dios'.

Perhaps this could also explain some elements of the Black Rose arc.

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