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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top03-05-2007 02:12:23 PM

Sey
Our Sicilian Prince
From: S. Cataldo, Sicily, Italy
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 268
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SKU and Nietzsche

Someone have studied Nietzsche's philosophy?
I think that the "Death of God" and the "Death of Dios" have a very similar meaning.

Nietzsche says that with the death of God all the moral values of the Catholicism and of all the metaphysical religion will be completly destroyed and the "super men" will create new moral values following the Hedonist Spirit.
   Regarding SKU, I think that it is very similar: God, for Nietzsche, is simply an illusion of men's mind they created to live better. in SKU, for the Ohtori Academy, the Prince is, namely, a God. But the now the Prince is death, killed by the own people who created it, Akio is only a shadow of the real Prince(don't blame me, Giovanna); so, Utena is the "super man" who states the death of Dios and starts to live without a Prince.

What about you? Let's talk!


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#2 | Back to Top03-05-2007 02:45:49 PM

Hysterical Woman
Touga Topper
From: Maryland
Registered: 03-02-2007
Posts: 50
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

I remember hearing Utena described at Otakon as Nietzsche-que. Then again, you can describe anything as Nietzsche-que it seems. Nobody knows what the guy was saying.


"So you should crossdress and help people.” And she did.

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#3 | Back to Top03-07-2007 12:56:42 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

I will have to actually get my philosophy prof to explain Nietzsche to me before I can make a comparison. From what I understand, he was very bitter towards women, but that's all I know.


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#4 | Back to Top11-19-2008 02:34:35 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

emot-rofl

This thread is from one month before I joined, can you believe I missed it until now? I could go on for DAYS about this (no seriously, DAYS), but I'll restrict myself to responding to what's been said so far.

1. The Death of God. Yes. Clearly, Nietzsche was not being literal here, he never believed in god in the first place. So if you view Dios as a sort of Platonic ideal, an unreachable pinnacle of nobility, then you can draw some pretty good parallels here. I go back and forth myself, sometimes I see it this way, and sometimes I see Dios as a person who tried to live up to those ideals and failed. And sometimes I see AKIO as someone who tried to live up to those ideals and failed. After all, Akio himself claims there was no Dios, right? Not like he'd have a reason to...i dunno...LIE ABOUT IT. Anyway. I'm afraid you either misunderstood some other things or we're having semantic issues though. The Nietzschean ubermensch is NOT a hedonist. In fact, he's not something that can be described in any simple terms, like an irrational number. He is what he is, and that's all. He's almost a Platonic ideal himself actually. Or perhaps he could be described as a new archetype in the Jungian sense. But it is true the the ubermensch would seek "the revolution of the world", while at the same time BEING the revolution of the world. So Utena as ubermensch does have some possibilities. Certainly she's shown a disregard for the old values by wearing a boy's uniform, but on the other hand we have her hypocritical "cheating is bad" stance too. Problematic. But of course, Nietzsche didn't really see the ubermensch as a real person either, just a target.

2. I think I've addressed this elsewhere, but while Nietzsche was indeed bitter toward women, that was hardly all his writing was about.

3. Betcha I get to add this to my thread kill count in 30 days. emot-tongue


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#5 | Back to Top11-21-2008 07:01:25 AM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Stormcrow wrote:

emot-rofl


3. Betcha I get to add this to my thread kill count in 30 days. emot-tongue

Hah ha!

I have resurrected it!

I am not sure Utena adheres to Nietzsche's ideal of a ubermensch. She does show some disregard for traditional morality, but at the same time she upholds it. Sure she wears a boys uniform and ignores many of the mores socially accepted for women, but she fluctuates quite a bit on that towards the end of the series, she still has some traditional "female" reactions such as wanting to meet her Prince. Also even if she bucks convention for her sex she still falls in line with the morality of Ohtori. Instead of wanting her prince she instead wants to become him, but in that she still idolizes the flawed idea of "God" that Nietzsche dislikes so. She does not try to find a new way to deal with this problem, she still plays the princes (God's) role. (Unless you're going to bring the movie in, where she escapes the paradigm altogether, that might be a better argument.)

Wow and I did all this before coffee too.emot-keke

....Wait wait, that means it might completely not make any sense. emot-gonk


20 threads dead so far.

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#6 | Back to Top11-22-2008 05:20:22 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Stormcrow wrote:

But it is true the the ubermensch would seek "the revolution of the world", while at the same time BEING the revolution of the world. So Utena as ubermensch does have some possibilities. Certainly she's shown a disregard for the old values by wearing a boy's uniform, but on the other hand we have her hypocritical "cheating is bad" stance too. Problematic. But of course, Nietzsche didn't really see the ubermensch as a real person either, just a target.

I haven't read any Nietzsche, but I have read about Nietzsche, and this seems off base to me.  The ubermensch casts aside "revealed morality" whose rightness is a faith object in favor of a morality based on reason and love.  He is categorically not a nihilist who rejects all morals.  Isn't it possible that the ubermensch would see a dress code as a meaningless artifact of a dead morality, yet agree based on his own moral code that cheating is wrong?

Here's a different question, though.  Does the ubermensch have to be self-conscious?  I don't think Utena has spent a second picking apart the old morality or constructing her own personal code of behavior in terms more precise than "never lose your strength or nobility."  The idea of her sitting down to write Zarathustra is laughable.  Does that exclude her from ubermenschocity?  Or does the fact that her behavior proceeds genuinely from her instinct qualify her?  And if it's the latter, is it a problem that her instinct derives in part from what Dios/Akio told her was virtuous when she was like five?

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#7 | Back to Top11-23-2008 01:06:58 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Ah no, there is no reason Utena as ubermensch WOULDN'T object to cheating, but objecting to cheating while being a cheater herself would be a little strange. Not insurmountable, but...the kind of thought process that would make that make sense seems absent from Utena.

The best answer I can come up with for the second question comes from the three metamorphoses of the spirit from Zarathustra (trivia tidbit, Nietzsche wrote the first book of Zarathustra in TEN DAYS). The spirit first becomes a camel (beast of burden), then a lion (destroyer), then a child (creator). The camel seeks out the most difficult tasks instinctively, then becomes the lion when the strictures of everyone elses moral codes become stifling. After breaking free, the lion must become a child in order to create a new order. So the answer is kind of a maybe. emot-tongue I think.


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#8 | Back to Top12-07-2008 02:37:26 AM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Man, I want in on this discussion. I have to go pull out all my phliosophy books from last year. etc-wankgirletc-wankgirletc-wankgirl I've always thought of Nietzsche as kind of an ass, but a lecture on him this semester gave me a new point of view...or at least made me reconsider, given that maybe I understood what the hell he was talking about a little better. Don't get me wrong. I'm still not completely sure what he was going on about, but I'm very for the whole people not being sheep thing. And I think that you can see that in SKU. The students, most of them...the whole world of Ohtori is a safe place, a lie which keeps the people in line and helps them swallow the fact that they've given up their independence by being there. Everyone plays the game except Utena, and in the end, Anthy. They are the two who decide not to be sheep, and therefore, they break the illusion.

That's as good as I can do off the top of my head at 4:30 in the morning.

Also, didn't several philosophers have problems with women? It seems that way to me, with the exception of Sartre.


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#9 | Back to Top12-09-2008 08:08:33 AM

Bluesky
Chpn Dlst
From: Your window
Registered: 10-25-2008
Posts: 1939
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Only thing I know is that both of them make me sad, and want to eat donuts.
Then again, I want to eat donuts most of the time.
So this comparison is possibly inadmissable.


/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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#10 | Back to Top05-03-2009 10:36:39 AM

Melegant
Anthy Assailer
From: Tintagel, Kernau
Registered: 05-02-2009
Posts: 73

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Utena can not be "Übermensch" - she did not decide it to be him. She only follows path of the "Prince" - "the God", if You want. She is submissive to an illusion of the Castle, of the (un)reality, she has no will but attempts to protect Himemiya. Even she is courageous, she is weak at all.


"Lascivious grace, in whom all ill well shows,
Kill me with spites; yet we must not be foes."

- William Shakespeare, sonnet n. 40 -

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#11 | Back to Top03-16-2012 03:54:30 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

I'm opposed to the idea of the ubermensch, because it glorifies the messenger to the point of refusing to evaluate or even understand the message.

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#12 | Back to Top03-17-2012 10:42:36 AM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

satyreyes wrote:

Stormcrow wrote:

But it is true the the ubermensch would seek "the revolution of the world", while at the same time BEING the revolution of the world. So Utena as ubermensch does have some possibilities. Certainly she's shown a disregard for the old values by wearing a boy's uniform, but on the other hand we have her hypocritical "cheating is bad" stance too. Problematic. But of course, Nietzsche didn't really see the ubermensch as a real person either, just a target.

I haven't read any Nietzsche, but I have read about Nietzsche, and this seems off base to me.  The ubermensch casts aside "revealed morality" whose rightness is a faith object in favor of a morality based on reason and love.  He is categorically not a nihilist who rejects all morals.  Isn't it possible that the ubermensch would see a dress code as a meaningless artifact of a dead morality, yet agree based on his own moral code that cheating is wrong?

Here's a different question, though.  Does the ubermensch have to be self-conscious?  I don't think Utena has spent a second picking apart the old morality or constructing her own personal code of behavior in terms more precise than "never lose your strength or nobility."  The idea of her sitting down to write Zarathustra is laughable.  Does that exclude her from ubermenschocity?  Or does the fact that her behavior proceeds genuinely from her instinct qualify her?  And if it's the latter, is it a problem that her instinct derives in part from what Dios/Akio told her was virtuous when she was like five?

Nietzsche admired the "forthright heart," the sincere, guileless heart. And with regard to the morality based on love, one of his famous quotes is "that which transpires out of love takes place beyond good and evil."

I'm opposed to the idea of the ubermensch, because it glorifies the messenger to the point of refusing to evaluate or even understand the message.

Nietzsche was all about the self and the body replacing the soul and Platonism in general. He felt that the Objective Man, the Pure Man of Ideas and Perception, was nothing but a tool. "A most exquisite tool, but only a tool." Ideally, the true free spirit would create their own values rather than being devoid of values. His distinction between a philosopher and a priest is that a priest fits into the frame of a received canon, while his idealized philosopher CREATES the canon.

Utena can not be "Übermensch" - she did not decide it to be him. She only follows path of the "Prince" - "the God", if You want. She is submissive to an illusion of the Castle, of the (un)reality, she has no will but attempts to protect Himemiya. Even she is courageous, she is weak at all.

I think... that the "prince" ideal arose out of her desire to protect Anthy, to save her from the jealousy of the weak-minded. Originally, it was the means and not the end; and when Anthy stabbed her for wanting to be a prince after everything, she still retained that desire. That kind of principled, empathetic elitism is completely Nietzschean.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-17-2012 10:50:24 AM)

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#13 | Back to Top03-17-2012 12:05:57 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Overlord Morgus wrote:

Nietzsche was all about the self and the body replacing the soul and Platonism in general. He felt that the Objective Man, the Pure Man of Ideas and Perception, was nothing but a tool. "A most exquisite tool, but only a tool." Ideally, the true free spirit would create their own values rather than being devoid of values. His distinction between a philosopher and a priest is that a priest fits into the frame of a received canon, while his idealized philosopher CREATES the canon.

That doesn't address what I said. I never accused the ubermensch of being without morals, only that it's wrong to glorify a role rather than an idea.

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#14 | Back to Top03-17-2012 01:48:51 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Atropos, I'm a little confused, and I wonder if you can elaborate a little emot-smile  You say that you're opposed to the idea of the ubermensch.  What, specifically, are you opposed to?  Are you opposed to people who construct their own morality?  Are you opposed to glorifying people who construct their own morality?  Are you opposed to inventing a word that describes people who construct their own morality?

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#15 | Back to Top03-17-2012 02:38:05 PM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

The Ubermensch is no mere role, it is a state of being, among other things.

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#16 | Back to Top03-17-2012 02:51:35 PM

dirufacade
Ballgoer
From: Baltimore & DC
Registered: 08-03-2011
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Funny, I was always under the impression the ubermensch was a tight rope walker.


~ diru

Don't talk shit. One does not hear about Abraxas by accident.

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#17 | Back to Top03-17-2012 04:25:04 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

satyreyes wrote:

Atropos, I'm a little confused, and I wonder if you can elaborate a little emot-smile  You say that you're opposed to the idea of the ubermensch.  What, specifically, are you opposed to?  Are you opposed to people who construct their own morality?  Are you opposed to glorifying people who construct their own morality?  Are you opposed to inventing a word that describes people who construct their own morality?

What I'm opposed to is labeling an 'ubermensch' as being a 'better' person simply because they follow a pattern that has been observed among great movers and shakers. True, many of history's great leaders may be called 'ubermenschen', but many also held ideas and goals that would be the complete opposite of many attributes associated with 'ubermensch'-ism. Therefore, Nietzche and mankind's glorification of the 'ubermensch' archetype is solely because they believe that 'these are the traits of a powerful man.'
Ignore the above word salad; it's the latter two.

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#18 | Back to Top03-17-2012 08:42:39 PM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

I think Nietzsche can be at times fairly petty and inconsequential as far as philosophers go. Actually, I don't have that much respect for philosophy in general; the laws of Man have nothing on the laws of Nature.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-17-2012 08:45:18 PM)

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#19 | Back to Top03-18-2012 07:41:09 AM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1107

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

I need the read up on this because I can follow but have little to say to expand on it. I am not so widely read as some and I know I am smart enough to catch the gist of this sort of thing. Chalk up more books to read for self-education. emot-smile I love this fandom.


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#20 | Back to Top03-19-2012 07:03:32 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

I don’t know anything about him either but:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/

Take note of the doctrine of eternal recurrence. Just off the top of my head the true disciple is Akio. If Utena were a true Nietzschean she would not have cared about Wakaba or Anthy, in my uninformed opinion.

Last edited by brian (03-19-2012 07:04:32 PM)

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#21 | Back to Top03-20-2012 12:09:25 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Nietzsche had no interest in disciples. He advocated each person to seek their own path. And it should be remembered that the ubermensch is a direction of travel on that path, like north or left. It's where people are headed. But it's best viewed as something asymptotic in my opinion. Claiming that certain people actually ARE ubermenschen suggests that their journey has ended.

Next, a careful reading of Nietzsche makes it clear that he saw "man" as a part of "nature", not above it or beyond it. He didn't believe in anything outside of nature existing.

Finally, the Akio's Ohtori could be seen as a kind of eternal recurrence of the same. But in Nietzsche's scheme, everything was incorporated. Including revolution. That would make the show a kind of Inception-esque thing (or Prisoner-esque if you want to go back further) where Anthy left, but is still contained in the cycle. I don't think that's what Ikuhara meant at all by revolution personally.


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#22 | Back to Top03-21-2012 01:40:15 PM

Rotten Mooring
Precious One
Registered: 10-26-2011
Posts: 281

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Anthiena wrote:

I need the read up on this because I can follow but have little to say to expand on it. I am not so widely read as some and I know I am smart enough to catch the gist of this sort of thing. Chalk up more books to read for self-education. emot-smile I love this fandom.

You and me both cool. Every time I get to thinking I'm a clever kid, somebody starts in with a discussion of stuff I don't know that really makes me wish I did. As it is, I only know the basics when it comes to Nietzsche, I've never made a proper study of it. But if there was ever a good reason to want to study philosophy, better indulging a friendly discussion of Utena is probably it! emot-biggrin

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#23 | Back to Top03-22-2012 12:46:43 AM

Katzenklavier
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Stormcrow wrote:

Next, a careful reading of Nietzsche makes it clear that he saw "man" as a part of "nature", not above it or beyond it. He didn't believe in anything outside of nature existing.

An important point. Nietzsche's Übermensch is often translated to "Superman", which perverts his meaning. The Gay Science in particular reveals his passion for Dionysian ecstasy and adherence to primal force. The Apollonian nature of religion - its imposition of law and structure onto instinct - was what marked it as particularly archaic. True to the idea of eternal recurrence, he sought inspiration from classical antiquity. The rapture of art and theater in classic Greek style in place of churches. Art was to replace God as humanity's solace. In its mediums, nature could be captured in infinite shades of interpretation. Hence why Plato was such a pain in Nietzsche's pasty philosopher ass.

I'm not Nietzsche's #1 fangirl, but I'll always give him props for ripping Plato a new one. Seriously, if I hear one more usage of the allegory of the cave as a metaphor for the emergence from ignorance, I'ma punch a Department Chair.


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#24 | Back to Top11-12-2012 06:56:14 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Considering that Nietzsche's ultimate stance was that neither master morality(Akio, completely self-obsessed and a firm believer in distinctions between the intrinsic worth of different people) or slave morality(Dios, who devoted himself to anyone in need regardless of who they were) would allow mankind to reach its full potential, does that mean Utena's revolution is the revaluation of morals?

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#25 | Back to Top11-12-2012 09:35:58 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: SKU and Nietzsche

Sey wrote:

Someone have studied Nietzsche's philosophy?
I think that the "Death of God" and the "Death of Dios" have a very similar meaning.

Nietzsche says that with the death of God all the moral values of the Catholicism and of all the metaphysical religion will be completly destroyed and the "super men" will create new moral values following the Hedonist Spirit.

That's not quite the way I remember it. From The Gay Science (where "God is dead" comes from) through his Genealogy of Morals and Beyond Good and Evil, Nietzsche promotes not so much a hedonist approach (Man does not strive for pleasure, only the Englishman does), as one open to mistake and correction, open to change approach. His Superman changes his mind, sometimes, but he always does what he feels is right regardless of how it annoys or confuses anyone else.

Of the murder of God, he says, "God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?" (Translated, natch.)

That's an indictment, too, of celebrating it unduly. And, it closes with the question of how we might appear (or be) worthy.

I do think that there's range in Utena, though, for the self-correction and overcoming-your-parents aspect of Nietzsche's ideas, particularly in how locked into their private hells or social loops as Touga, Shiori, Ruka, Juri, et al are. Utena's ultimate achievements are her surrendering her previously held ideas and cherished myths to become what is necessary, instead.

And, what really intrigues me, is how Ohtori and the myth of Akio/Dios may exemplify (if not embody) what Nietizsche said of forgetfulness, that it is a "faculty of repression," that we only remember what we are taught/encouraged to remember, and what does not fit the worldview we are told to have, we exclude and immediately forget. We do this, he thought, the way a cow forgets it had no grass yesterday if you fed it the day before and again today, or a fly might not grieve the time it was a maggot, but with the fundamental difference that we are capable of remembering and dealing.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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