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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top02-26-2007 08:51:43 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Okay, I poked through here and I couldn't find a thread like this so I made one. Let's find religious parallels and mythological references, and vice versa, in SKU. I kind of tinkered with the idea in the Who is Anthy thread.


Raven Nightshade wrote:

Lightice wrote:

I believe that Anthy's original existance was as archetypical as Dios' - in other thread I speculated of her originally being the incarnation of feminine earth, as opposed to the masculine sky, which both Dios and Akio have some kind of connection to. That makes it difficult to speculate the reasons of their fall, though - they couldn't have had exactly those roles at the moment they fell.

See, that thought had crossed my mind too! I had considered that Akio/Dios and Anthy were some representation of the Sky God/Earth Goddess dynamic, but I could do little to really back it up. The concept has been around since at least Ancient Greece with Uranus and Gaea who, depending on which version you subscribe to, are brother/sister and husband/wife or son/mother and husband/wife. For the purposes of this discussion, we'll go with the first one. Also notice that this pattern continues with Kronos(Saturn) and Rhea(Ops), and then with Zeus and Hera. I'm trying not to get too far into this, because mythological and religious references could be its own thread.

Now, in reference to Anthy, let's recall Antheia, goddess of flowers. It's generally accepted that Antheia is a minor goddess, often known only as one of Aphrodite's entourage. In my mind, I see the Flower Goddess as really being the maiden aspect of the Earth Goddess. (And this is where we wander into wicca...) If you look at it that way, Anthy is stuck in this perpetual state of spring which could be connected to the reference in episode 33(I think) from the Shadow Girls about how the autumn constellations haven't appeared. Autumn is seen as the end of youth, adulthood. It marks that inevitable decline into winter, death. As long as autumn doesn't come, they'll always be at their prime.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#2 | Back to Top02-26-2007 09:10:40 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Anthy as the Whore of Babylon, 'drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus' sounds somewhat, you know, fitting, in the crazy mob propaganda sens eof the word.  emot-dance


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#3 | Back to Top02-26-2007 09:31:41 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

I don't have any choice in going to Church on Sunday, but at least every now and then I hear something that I can relate to SKU.

I think that the hair colors of Utena, Anthy, Akio, and Dios have to do with Religion. Near Christmas, four candles are lit over several weeks. Three of the candles are purple, and the last one is rose. I forget what the purple candles mean, but the rose candle symbolizes the coming of advent, the birth of Christ.

Anthy, Akio, and Dios all have purple hair, though Akio and Dios both have a very light shade of purple. Utena's hair is pink, and she is Anthy's savior, and the one who will revolutionize the world. According to my religion teacher, the priests who have to wear that color during the time the candles are lit stubbornly say that it isn't "pink," it's "rose." (*Cough*Manga-Utena*Cough*)

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#4 | Back to Top02-26-2007 09:53:13 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

The hair colors also tend to line up wiith the colours assigned to the deadly sins. Green for envy, red for lust, purple for pride, light blue for sloth...aaand I don't remember the rest.


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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#5 | Back to Top02-26-2007 10:22:46 PM

Teapot
Sensei of Sense
From: San Diego, CA
Registered: 02-20-2007
Posts: 198
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

morosemocha wrote:

The hair colors also tend to line up wiith the colours assigned to the deadly sins. Green for envy, red for lust, purple for pride, light blue for sloth...aaand I don't remember the rest.

Yellow for Greed, Orange for Gluttony... wrath is also red, I think? o.O I really don't know.


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#6 | Back to Top02-26-2007 10:27:43 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

How does Gluttony fit into Juri's personality? And I don't see Miki or Kozue as lazy so and sos either.


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#7 | Back to Top02-26-2007 10:29:19 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Tamago wrote:

How does Gluttony fit into Juri's personality?

Well, we all know how much she wants to eat Shiori...

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#8 | Back to Top02-26-2007 10:30:59 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

She's a glutton for punishment?


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#9 | Back to Top02-26-2007 11:02:43 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Razara wrote:

Tamago wrote:

How does Gluttony fit into Juri's personality?

Well, we all know how much she wants to eat Shiori...

Maybe but somehow the gluttony issue would be more fitting if Juri was the type to have a 'harem' of fangirls and she was the type to greedily 'gobble' them up if you catch my meaning. emot-dance


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#10 | Back to Top02-26-2007 11:17:55 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Tamago wrote:

Razara wrote:

Tamago wrote:

How does Gluttony fit into Juri's personality?

Well, we all know how much she wants to eat Shiori...

Maybe but somehow the gluttony issue would be more fitting if Juri was the type to have a 'harem' of fangirls and she was the type to greedily 'gobble' them up if you catch my meaning. emot-dance

For Juri's sake, you had better stop giving me ideas. school-devil

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#11 | Back to Top02-26-2007 11:20:17 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Ivy-chan wrote:

She's a glutton for punishment?

Yup. I did a thread on The Seven Deadly SIns in Utena. It's around here somewhere if anyone cares to do some thread necro.


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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#12 | Back to Top02-26-2007 11:23:55 PM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

morosemocha wrote:

The hair colors also tend to line up wiith the colours assigned to the deadly sins. Green for envy, red for lust, purple for pride, light blue for sloth...aaand I don't remember the rest.

but purple was also a color only royalty was supposed to use. Himemiya=princess shrine

And I also support the ones that signaled the Sky masculine/earth femenine dinamic. The mother goddess was supposed to be principal goddess in really ancient civilizations they thought all life came from the female all by herself (they still didn't knew it was needed two people to make a baby... I assume they practiced sex for fun then school-devil) It was until they noticed that it was needed a man for the process that appeared the consort of the mother earth that could be his son, husband or both at time. Still the mother goddess was the most important. (sometimes the masculine part was just represented by a fallus only)
It wasn't until the nomad indoeropean tribes conquered the sedentarians that the star of the show passed to be the male. Nomad indoeropean tribes believed in the father sky that gave them the rain and fire(thunder) Earth wasn't that important because they didn't knew how to plant.
At first both mother goddess and father god religions when merged in a Hierogamos (sacred mariage) but as the time passed mother goddesses lost importance compared to the males until they disapeared when monoteism appeared. (In Rome they were between choosing Cristianism or the cult of Isis as oficial religion but ended decided the first because it would be inconceivable a Rome ruled by a woman emot-rolleyes)
The first signs the mother goddess was losing importance appeared when Gilgamesh dared to reject the advances of the goddess Ishtar. (You just don't do that!!! emot-gonk)

The whole tale of the rose seem to be when the goddess(Anthy) lost all her importance. Now that I think it in the manga Anthy mentioned that Dios saved her when she was destined to die. (dissapear as a goddess? complete lost of her cult?) she wasn't a goddess anymore but a slut subject to the whim of the main god who was also dissapearing too. But in the series it was made clear that Anthy' power was still needed. And in the movie it was her power who created Dios from the lord of the flies and mantained the ilusion.

Sex between Anthy and Akio can be a mock of the hierogamos because it doesn't serve any purpose anymore.?

Sorry because of the desorder of the ideas they just popped right now and I am kind of tired. emot-frown


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#13 | Back to Top02-26-2007 11:44:40 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Romanticide wrote:

but purple was also a color only royalty was supposed to use. Himemiya=princess shrine

So, you mean that Anthy can't be prideful? emot-smile


Pride –Anthy
When glancing through the sins, Anthy doesn’t seem to fit any of them very well, and Pride seems almost like a throwaway, a bone to give her. But on more thought, it seems to be something that fits rather well. Pride is an excess of belief in one’s own superiority, oftentimes unfounded. While Anthy as the Rose Bride might be considered lesser, as displayed by the Seitokai’s treatment of her, Anthy as the Witch is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and superiority is, in this case, justified.
Anthy does not fraternize with anybody. She is no one’s friend until Utena comes along, and it takes her a great deal of time to warm up to the pink haired would-be prince. Anthy has never held anyone to be on her level, and why should she? Utena is just another potential prince in Akio’s dueling game, and everyone else is beneath her. She has a lot to have a determined kind of pride in. She stole Dios from everyone and she takes the million swords. Two very powerful things, two things that not many could’ve done.
So her pride, while more then a little malicious in nature, is justified. However, one of the most telling is the origins of the sin itself, and why it is a sin. Pride was what caused Lucifer to fall from Heaven, and began his transformation to Satan. Anthy is directly responsible for Dios’ “fall” into Akio. She takes him, for whatever reason, for whatever justification she has. She removes Dios, and basically creates Akio (in a way, she’s almost a mother to him, which makes the incest just that much…incestier).

The rest of the thread can be found here: http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=270


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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#14 | Back to Top02-26-2007 11:53:03 PM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

morosemocha wrote:

Romanticide wrote:

but purple was also a color only royalty was supposed to use. Himemiya=princess shrine

So, you mean that Anthy can't be prideful? emot-smile

No I didnt mean that I just wanted to add the royalty thing.


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#15 | Back to Top02-27-2007 12:59:43 AM

Persephone
Memorial Hollerer
From: Edge of the Light
Registered: 01-31-2007
Posts: 687
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

I'd type long and hard about my perspective, but this computer desk is giving me scoliosis!emot-gonk


It's just time to be
sammy to the rasoodock.
And close up the business
of heart-related matters.

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#16 | Back to Top02-28-2007 02:30:31 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Romanticide wrote:

Himemiya=princess shrine

...so...the swords are all princesses?


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#17 | Back to Top02-28-2007 02:38:19 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Giovanna wrote:

Romanticide wrote:

Himemiya=princess shrine

...so...the swords are all princesses?

Hmm, I don't think the swords are princesses. I've always seen them as phallic symbols.
Here's how I interpret Himemiya's last name. She's a princess, at least she used to be, and the shrine is basically the idea that she's protecting something important. ie Sword of Dios.

Hold on, there's another interpretation that just flashed across my mind. It could be that Himemiya is protecting the traditional ideals of princesses and womanhood, hence Princess Shrine. And, Utena is the one who will take away that ideal and disappear in the sky. Utena IS Tenjou, meaning Heaven Above.

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#18 | Back to Top02-28-2007 03:26:06 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

From my understand, the Shinto always keep three things in every shrine: a sword, a mirror, and a jewel. The sword, I'm told, is to represent valor, the mirror is truth, and the jewel is for benevolence.

Now that I think of it, the story of Akio and Anthy is vaguely similar to the story of Amaterasu, the sun goddess, and her brother Susanoo, the storm god. One of the major differences is that the genders are reversed.

Wikpedia wrote:

Amaterasu is described as the god from which all light emanates, and is also often referred to as the sun goddess because of her warmth and compassion for the people who worshipped her; an interpretation of "light" or "heat" as passion, or purity. This is thought of as a likely interpretation, as upon seeing the actions of her brother, Susano'o, she fled to a cave in embarrassment, obscuring the light she emanated and plunging the world into darkness.

Despite the fact that several interpretations list Amaterasu to have acted in embarrassment, it is listed in several places to have been triggered due to fear of reprisals from her brother. According to one interpretation, Amaterasu, when visited by her brother, was fearful because of her brother's use of power; using lightning and storms to manipulate the earth so as to allow him easier passage to meet her on the plane of high heaven, which subsequently caused all living beings to go into hiding.

Upon seeing the use of Susano'o's power, Amaterasu took precautions and readied a bow and quiver at her side. Despite the fact that this may be seen as a somewhat rash decision, prior to meeting Amaterasu, Susano'o was persistent in meeting his late mother in the underworld. However, it is detailed that Susano'o was in fear of becoming lost, as he had learned of the disturbing nature of the underworld, and so it is possible that Amaterasu feared Susano'o had visited the underworld, and returned somewhat jaded or changed.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#19 | Back to Top03-01-2007 07:15:50 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Here are some thoughts I've had in the past...

Buddhism
--------
Akio is analagous to Mara in Ohtori (the physical world of desires and confusions where illusions abound).  Mara is the demon of temptation who brought his 3 daughters to try to keep Buddha from reaching enlightenment under the tree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_(demon)

Utena is a Bodhisattva.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva

While Anthy may be a Bodhisattva or Buddha herself.

All of this in the context of:
- Akio's role as a manipulator who uses peoples' own desires against them. 
- The fact that peoples' desires in the series always cause them pain.  Either because they can't have what they want, don't want to want what they want, or get what they want and it doesn't satisfy them.
- Utena's role as a person who helps Anthy leave Ohtori.
- Anthy's very life-changing step out of the gates of Ohtori a coffin where people lead lives of make-believe (into the real world, we can assume from the movie).


Greek
-----
- Anthy as an Earth Goddess, locked in a struggle with her mate.  The Greek gods often ended up at odds with their wives.  Uranus/Gaia (over the Titans), Rhea/Chronos (over the Olympians), then in a less fatal example Zeus/Hera (over Zeus's infidelity).  All the gods were always related in some close degree.
- Anthy locks herself away; in this respect she is like Demeter or Selene.  The malicious "Witch" aspect of her role in taking the light from the world is all a matter of perspective.  But Greek goddesses, though sometimes sympathetic, don't lack maliciousness or pride.
- Anthy as Persephone, stuck in the Underworld due to a bad bargain. (Though I like to think Persephone was OK with the whole thing.)

Misc
----
- Anthy as the Rose Bride is a sacrificial figure.  She takes the hate of humanity upon herself for the (ex-)Prince.  She accepts his wounds for him and suffers for him so that he doesn't have to.
- I like Romanticide's take; that part of Anthy's problem is the possibility of being rendered obsolete as a goddess due to the rise of Paternalistic culture.  Sabotaging Dios would be revenge for this.  It also offers the hope for an escape of the role of slave/wife to the now-asendent male god.  This would be an alternate explanation for her role as the Prince's sacrifice--not that it was a side effect of something she chose, but rather something that was forced on her.


Old Essay wrote:

THE MYTH
--------

Once upon a time, there was a Prince.  He had the power to perform miracles, create shining things, and revolutionize the world.  His job was to save all the girls in the world when they needed it and make them all princesses.  The Prince had a sister.  She was the only girl in the world who could not be a Princess.  As they grew older, the Prince's sister began to grow jealous of all the other girls in the world.  Meanwhile, the Prince began to become exhausted with his onerous duties.  The Prince's sister, out of malicious jealousy--but also out of love--decided to become the first Witch.  She told the people of the world that she would not let the Prince help them anymore.  Enraged, they impale her on their swords for eternity.  The Prince is so upset by what they have done that he leaves the world for good.

--------

Displaced Gods:

In the human mind, myths have power.  Ancient Sumerians believed that mankind had a duty to re-enact their religious myths.  This ensured, for example, that the sun would continue to rise each morning and (in a larger sense) that light would continue to triumph over darkness.  Time and chronology aren't important--we are being constantly redeemed by (for example) Christ's crucifixion.  That's why the symbol has power.  The act has lasting repercussions.  What if Prometheus knew that he would be caught and sentenced to his eternal torment?  It wouldn't have mattered, probably, because that was his role and his destiny.  Much like Christ knew he would suffer and die, but chose to do what he had to do anyway.

But what happens when mythological beings interfere with each others' destinies?  I believe the one who was to die that day was Dios.  It was the next step in his story as a Prince.  According to mythological destiny, both siblings were growing up--perhaps both reaching puberty--where their roles would change.

Anthy, however, chose to interfere.  What would have happened had Dios died?  Presumably, he eventually would have been resurrected, according to standard mythological tradition.  There would have been a period of darkness in the world, which his resurrection would have ended.  Even if he didn't return to the world as a living being, his death would have ultimately granted some boon to the world.  Had he died as he should, things would have gone on as they should.  (It's interesting to wonder what role Anthy would have played then...Witch who curses the world?  Goddess who turns her face away in despair, blighting the world a la Demeter and Persephone?  Gaia-like figure who gives birth to the resurrected Prince?)

As a result of her action, Anthy is thrown into eternal torment and the Prince is taken out of the world permenantly.  Dios necessarily became Akio.  His initial reaction of disillusionment and hatred, seeing what the people of the world had done to his sister took the bloom off of the Rose Prince.  And why should he sacrifice his life?  Dios's life has been thrown off course and his suppressed will to live is given a chance to take over--Akio.  Dios's power is lost with his disregard of his duty as Prince (his dual duty to die and to save the people who hurt his sister).  Both siblings are thrown into the limbo that is Ohtori, neither of them willing to make a different choice.

They both hate the world, and probably each other.  Their purposes have been twisted from their rightful paths.  Between the two of them is the ghost of sibling affection; but there is also incestuous love, jealousy, resentment, and disgust.
--------

The New Prince:

There's some support for this in the manga; but my theory predates reading the manga.  I believe that Utena's emotional experience in the coffin echos what's happening to Anthy (and to Dios) at the time of their "fall from grace."  They show Anthy several times mirroring Utena by hiding in the coffin, and when Anthy leaves Akio she tells him to keep playing in his "coffin" forever.

One the one hand, the young Anthy and Dios are becoming adolescents and this implies a certain disconnection from the world as it has been previously understood by the childish mind.  On the other hand, they have gone through a traumatic experience that has warped them, caused them to lose any trust in humanity, and, in fact, to leave the world because they despise it.

At that time, they reach out to Utena--that's why she is put in the unique position to change their fates.  She's actually the last girl Dios ever saves...though not in the traditional manner.  She is a child who has gone through a trauma that has caused her to lose any hope for her future.  She hates the world for hurting her, she is digusted by the people around her for lying to her about what to expect.  She hides in a coffin, too.In a way, she is re-enacting the myth.  Her parents actually do die and she tries to join them, which is not her fate.  She, however, is shown an eternal suffering far beyond her own (which is the sort of suffering she might expect had she continued with her plan to hide forever).  It's interesting to note that Touga, who does not try to help her, ends up idolizing Akio and trying to be like him.  While Saionji, who wanted to help her, becomes obsessed with Anthy (who is in the same position as the childhood Utena).  What Utena saw inspires her to redeem herself.  That ultimately requires her to sacrifice herself, which is what the Prince was supposed to do in the first place.  Her completion of the myth has the potential to redeem both Anthy and Akio.

Unfortunately, Anthy is the only one who takes Utena's example to heart.

--------

Alternatives:

It's also entirely likely that the myth, as it took place, was what was destined to happen to Anthy and Akio.  That the Rose Bride was Anthy's fated role to play, and that she is only able to leave because Utena has actually taken her place.  Ouch.  That'd be awfully cold of Anthy, and I don't think it's entirely correct.

But it's a good question to wonder what does happen to the swords.  I'd guess they don't go after Akio because he's totally not the Prince anymore--but where do they go?  Is their existence rendered obsolete?

----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (03-01-2007 07:20:21 AM)


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#20 | Back to Top03-01-2007 07:50:03 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Great posting as always. I know little about Jungian stuff but I did once read a comment that we have so denigrated the feminine principle that when she re-emerges she will be filled with terrifying fury and we may get plunged into a time of mass hysteria.

But enough of future apocalypse. One message seems to be that people should live in the Present and not be beguiled by the Past and the Future. At the end, almost everybody but Akio has learned how to live in the Present.

During Prince who Runs in the Night Akio accelerates his car to hundereds of Kilometers/Hour and changes into Word's End. It almost looks like he is operating a time machine. It's a strange, hard-to-fathom scene.

When he lectures Nanami about being trapped and unable to escape he is mostly describing himself.

I don't usually read stories about Tired Gods but Akio and Anthy do seem a bit like that.

Last edited by brian (03-01-2007 09:36:58 PM)

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#21 | Back to Top03-02-2007 03:49:14 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

The TV told me something rather brilliant today. Anthy could be what is referred to as a Kumari.

Basically, some Hindus and Buddhists(especially in Nepal) believe that the goddess Taleju(or Durga) enters the body of a young girl and resides there until she has her first period. The young girl is worshiped as a living goddess during that time and is treated as such. She is always barefoot and her feet never touch the ground, and on the rare occasions she's not barefoot, she's wearing red stockings. The Kumari wears red all the time and has a third eye, though much larger than Anthy's.

When the girl is no longer the Kumari, she must forfeit all of the luxuries and benefits that came with it and go back to being a "normal girl." The hardest part is that until recently, Kumari were uneducated because "they knew everything." Also, the general belief is that anyone who married a former Kumari would die in rather short order. Also, whenever anyone saw the Kumari, a lack of expression on her face was considered a good thing.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#22 | Back to Top03-02-2007 08:50:50 PM

Mai_Kanzaki
Ohtori Paramouri
From: Left of Nowhere, Ohio
Registered: 02-18-2007
Posts: 93
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

Back before White Wolf did that huge reset and basically threw out the original world of darkness settings I really liked how they twisted the bible myths. One actually centered around Lillith and Lucifer falling for each other. I didn't get to read the book for that but ever since then the only thing keeping me from twisting Ohtori into a WOD setting was well lack of books.
OK that was too far off topic.
At any rate I figure based especially on that since Akio already indentifies himself as Lucifer it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to connect Anthy with Lillith would it?

PS thank god for spell check... I nearly put world of warcraft...emot-gonk


emot-gonk THINK MUN-KEY!

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#23 | Back to Top03-02-2007 10:50:27 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Anthy, however, chose to interfere.

In the manga Anthy says that she was destined originally to die and Dios became a Prince by interfering. I'm still puzzling that.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

At that time, they reach out to Utena--that's why she is put in the unique position to change their fates.

They are both fascinated by Utena and the unequal contest they fight for her is very suspenseful. I had not fully noticed before that she represents something they are trying to regain, although they don't really acknowlege it.

The differences between Anthy and a Kumari seem more striking than the similarities but it would be interesting to compare her directly to Durga.

Last edited by brian (03-02-2007 10:53:42 PM)

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#24 | Back to Top03-02-2007 11:08:55 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

I felt that Utena may also resemble a Kumari. At early age, she was given the chance to see something eternal, and then before she knows it, she is closer to the power of Dios (God) than any other duelist will ever be.
But then at the end, she leaves Ohtori and lives a normal life again, like a Kumari would when she loses her god-like power.

I guess the only thing that counters my argument is the thing about Kumari's lack of expression.

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#25 | Back to Top03-03-2007 12:15:33 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Religion, Mythology, and Utena

That might be the secret to it, though. Anthy isn't the Kumari anymore, Utena is. The moment Anthy put her feet on the ground and scratched herself up saving Dios, she wasn't a goddess anymore. This kind of sheds light on Akio's statement in episode 39 that he thought Anthy was a goddess that sacrificed herself for him, which may mean that what I call the "Kumari glamour" wore off, and that it had been affecting him too.

Now, it's also possible that Dios wasn't even a prince, but was thought of as such by the Kumari-worshiping populace since the family typically goes along for the ride. He also was thinking of himself that way as well, due to a synergy between the Kumari glamour and his own ego. And if you line up the actual documented cases of Kumari worship with the British occupation of India, then it would make sense that Dios' idea of a prince was skewed by European fairy tales.

So when Anthy wasn't a goddess anymore, Dios wasn't a prince anymore, thus their "fallen" state.  They lost everything, which could be representative of the log cabin/shack/barn that they're hiding in during the flashback. The swords of hatred that she takes on aren't a physical manifestation of the people's hatred of Anthy or Dios. They're angry because someone has to be blamed for taking away everything they believe in. Naturally, they can't blame themselves for putting this HUGE onus on Dios and Anthy, even though they know that they couldn't expect one teenage boy to save every girl in the country. 

Cue Anthy exiting the barn/shack/log cabin.

She doesn't really help matters with all of the "Dios is mine" business either. That really just turned that third eye into a bullseye, which may have been her plan. So now, she's poor, dirty, and everyone hates her. But she thinks she still has her brother, until he proves her wrong. He resents her for what she did, even if it was to save him. All he cared about was being a prince, and he could only do that if she was a goddess. To Anthy, being a Kumari was a job, something she had to do. For Dios, being a prince was a career, what he wanted to do, and Anthy took that away.

So now, Anthy is trapped in this transitional period between being a goddess and a normal girl, but she still wasn't a princess. Now she was a witch, but whether or not she had any powers is moot for the sake of this discussion. She took the prince away from the world, and that's evil. On top of that, the prince never thought of her as a princess, so no one else did either. Also, look at Circe from Greek Mythology. She was a witch in the more literal sense. When Odysseus/Ulysses landed on her island, she locked him away from the world for years.

There's more, but my brain is tired. I'll write the rest later.

EDIT: Um...I guess not. I completely lost my train of thought. Damn it...

Last edited by Raven Nightshade (03-03-2007 09:43:20 PM)


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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