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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top02-17-2007 04:54:47 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
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Posts: 8731
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Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

About a century ago there was a thought I had that I threatened to make a thread out of. Last night, I was finishing up the caps for episode 25 and decided it's time. emot-biggrin I'm going to attempt not to get long-winded here, since that we can save for discussion!

In many threads I've noted that I suspect Saionji came from a violent upbringing, that if it wasn't him, it was someone close to him, probably his mother, getting abused. Traumatic, to say the least, for such a young boy, and definitely an easy source for his behavior later on. But what goes through the mind of such a child when they are witness or party to such violence in their own home? They want to escape. They want someone to save them. Some children might have attempted to run away, and we might see this as the 'noble' or 'strong' thing to do, but Saionji doesn't seem like the type, a sense of helplessness and lack of control creeps into every corner of his personality, and that's no natural state. Somewhere, perhaps in this home, Saionji learned of being trapped and unable to stand for himself.

The alternative then is wanting someone to save him. Why does the idea that Touga saved the girl in the coffin rub Saionji the wrong way? We have an answer to that even at face value, that Touga turned his back on Saionji and showed a stupid little girl something he wouldn't show Saionji. But perhaps it goes deeper. The hurt is magnified by the idea that Touga saved someone else, when Saionji, who is much closer to him, needs it just as much. It's not a difficult line of psychological logic here, and many, many people walk down this road. I wish someone would save me. -> I wish you would save me. -> Why didn't you save me? -> Why won't anyone save me?, and by the time you hit the last one, it's become aggression and violence in itself, hostility directed toward everyone else who didn't save you and yourself for needing that and not wanting to admit it.

What made me think of this was capping 25 and noticing another instance of repeated shots, like in Juri's two duels.

Episode 9:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/snaps179.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/snaps180.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/snaps184.jpg

Episode 25:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/PDVD_2657.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/PDVD_2667.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/PDVD_2671.jpg

Life repeats itself! Again, someone is getting saved, and again Saionji is in the role of the monster that makes being saved necessary. At the same time he might be watching Touga and Anthy step in on Utena's behalf with envy at the situation, where someone is protected from the dangers of this world by another (when it's Anthy, fulfilling the role in her friendship with Utena that Touga never gave Saionji), but also it's not likely lost on him that he is the reason right then that Utena is being saved. He's become the violent home he grew up in, part of a cycle of violence that continues on and on, sometimes for generations in reality.

After these events, Saionji reappears in the Apocalypse Arc as Touga's running commentary. The conversations, which usually center around or relate more to Touga, betray the cracks in his cool and collected mask, and they also betray how few people can see them. (Saionji himself, and of course Akio.) Perhaps in watching Touga stumble over his own ambitions, try to save Utena only to have it blow up in his face, Saionji has come to understand through Touga a message we as viewers have pounded into our heads by the finale. No one can really save anyone else. Saionji can and does bitch and moan about what an idiot Touga's being, but he knows nothing he does will stop Touga from making the mistakes he has to make, and that nothing is learned by being saved anyway.

It shakes Saionji to find out that Touga didn't save the girl in the coffin. It must have brought the fantasy of being saved at all crashing down to realize who did, and that this grinning mischievous character in the driver's seat certainly doesn't appear to Saionji the type to save the girl out of the kindness of his heart. Saionji realizes both that his friend didn't quite betray him after all, and that the events he witnessed back then were not the genuine article. Just like he knows Touga's saving Utena in episode 9 wasn't the genuine article. Saionji knows very well it wasn't Touga's inner Dios motivating him to stop that swordfall. And Anthy saving Utena here? That looks pretty genuine, but Saionji, as much as he wants her, knows perhaps better than anyone that Anthy is not what she appears to be. The pieces might be starting to fall into place for him, and why would he trust the actions of the sister of Ends of the World, nevermind someone who has repeatedly antagonized the shit out him? Hell, go back to the first episode, when Touga grabs Saionji's hand. It wasn't some valiant effort on Touga's part and Saionji knew that. Don't touch the merchandise.

Whee! I shut up now. emot-biggrin I need my morning coffee.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#2 | Back to Top02-18-2007 02:57:29 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

etc-loveetc-loveetc-love My inner fangirl screams "YES!"

Giovanna wrote:

The alternative then is wanting someone to save him. Why does the idea that Touga saved the girl in the coffin rub Saionji the wrong way? We have an answer to that even at face value, that Touga turned his back on Saionji and showed a stupid little girl something he wouldn't show Saionji. But perhaps it goes deeper. The hurt is magnified by the idea that Touga saved someone else, when Saionji, who is much closer to him, needs it just as much. It's not a difficult line of psychological logic here, and many, many people walk down this road. I wish someone would save me. -> I wish you would save me. -> Why didn't you save me? -> Why won't anyone save me?, and by the time you hit the last one, it's become aggression and violence in itself, hostility directed toward everyone else who didn't save you and yourself for needing that and not wanting to admit it.

This has to be one of my favourite analyses of Saionji's state of mind ever. emot-tongue I think you've struck why people (y'know...well...crazy folk like us) still like Saionji as a character when he does do cruel things that ought to repulse us (but then one has to remember I also like the characters of Mikage, Nanami and Ruka, who have this in common as well...ah, crap, now I want to do an essay on the cruelty/lack of empathy demonstrated by these characters as compared to one another, because obviously they all do it for different reasons, and not always consciously...damn this show, making me think again...).

[coughs]

Erhm, but yeah. Saionji takes out his frustration explosively and violently, but as you say...if we take into account your hypothesis, it's a reasonable progression. And although it sucks that nobody tried to yank him back from the path (TOUGA ARE YOU LISTENING) like you say below, the show's main theme is that while others can show you the path -- and even give you the means to walk/drive it -- you still need to do it yourself. Which is possibly why Akio's manipulations never truly worked in the end; he invited them into his car and drove them to the Ends of the World under the illusion it was their choice, but it wasn't. Hell, makes you even wonder if the whole flip over the windshield was to grant the power of the illusion that no-one was in control.

...er, but that's wandered a bit far from the point. Gomen gomen! school-devil

Giovanna wrote:

Life repeats itself! Again, someone is getting saved, and again Saionji is in the role of the monster that makes being saved necessary. At the same time he might be watching Touga and Anthy step in on Utena's behalf with envy at the situation, where someone is protected from the dangers of this world by another (when it's Anthy, fulfilling the role in her friendship with Utena that Touga never gave Saionji), but also it's not likely lost on him that he is the reason right then that Utena is being saved. He's become the violent home he grew up in, part of a cycle of violence that continues on and on, sometimes for generations in reality.

You know, that makes me understand a bit better his beheaviour immediately after his expulsion...and even his later behaviour with Wakaba. Saionji is one of the most perceptive characters in the series -- when he allows himself to be. He's seems to prefer the world in black and white, and it is not until the end that he accepts the fact that shades of grey aren't the exception, they're the norm...and they're not going to go away while you turn your back and look the other way. But yes, Saionji had to leave because of his expulsion -- but I think he would have left anyway. It's partly a matter of pride, I think (we'll go with the honour code so inherent to Japanese martial arts/combat), but I think he also hated what he'd become, as you say, and wanted to get away from it. He did stay, of course, but it was Wakaba who invited him...who was saving him in a way, I suppose. Was this a positive step for him or not? I am not sure, as both that and his later actions in betraying her for reinstatement do contradict what I think was running through his mind. But then why DID Saionji choose to come back? For one last try, even then? (Touga did have to bully him into it.) Or was he even then wanting to just be there when everything finally went down? I guess it depends on your intepretation of why Saionji duelled for that last time. I'm going with the "he was so shocked at what Touga was doing/Akio had done he lost his temper." And we know Saionji without a keel = bad news.

Oh, and I found it telling, the way Saionji gave Touga the diary. It sort of seems to me to be a "remember me as a lovesick fool, not as a crazy guy who sliced you up" kind of manouvre. Which...is not uncommon in abusers, I think. "I only do it because I love you!" (That's...always bothered me, that mindset.)

Giovanna wrote:

After these events, Saionji reappears in the Apocalypse Arc as Touga's running commentary. The conversations, which usually center around or relate more to Touga, betray the cracks in his cool and collected mask, and they also betray how few people can see them. (Saionji himself, and of course Akio.) Perhaps in watching Touga stumble over his own ambitions, try to save Utena only to have it blow up in his face, Saionji has come to understand through Touga a message we as viewers have pounded into our heads by the finale. No one can really save anyone else. Saionji can and does bitch and moan about what an idiot Touga's being, but he knows nothing he does will stop Touga from making the mistakes he has to make, and that nothing is learned by being saved anyway.

I like this, a lot. It also possibly says something about why Saionji acted as Touga's Rose Bride; he knew he wasn't going to be able to stop Touga, so instead of trying to stop him, he just stands by his side. United we stand...united they fall. Quite an interesting development of what was apparently never a real "friendship" during the series...at least not until the revolution, as such.

Giovanna wrote:

It shakes Saionji to find out that Touga didn't save the girl in the coffin. It must have brought the fantasy of being saved at all crashing down to realize who did, and that this grinning mischievous character in the driver's seat certainly doesn't appear to Saionji the type to save the girl out of the kindness of his heart. Saionji realizes both that his friend didn't quite betray him after all, and that the events he witnessed back then were not the genuine article.

I do wonder, though, if Saionji ever wondered "...if he didn't do it, why did he let me believe he did?" I mean, it was a passive act on Touga's part, sure (although as somebody so beautifull pointed out -- I think it was you, Gio -- Touga likes the illusion of everyone else doing the work, because if it goes wrong in their perception it's THEIR error and not his), but Saionji would still have every right to think that Touga had been an ass of a friend for doing that to him. But I think perhaps by the end of the series he'd come to accept Touga for what he was. I love that little coda with the duel and Nanami making tea. Hee.


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#3 | Back to Top02-19-2007 10:26:16 AM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

Clarice wrote:

etc-loveetc-loveetc-love My inner fangirl screams "YES!"

Methinks this might be a Gio and Clarice thread. emot-wink

Clarice wrote:

Mikage, Nanami and Ruka, who have this in common as well...ah, crap, now I want to do an essay on the cruelty/lack of empathy demonstrated by these characters as compared to one another

...I squirmed. Write this, please. etc-love

Clarice wrote:

Which is possibly why Akio's manipulations never truly worked in the end; he invited them into his car and drove them to the Ends of the World under the illusion it was their choice, but it wasn't. Hell, makes you even wonder if the whole flip over the windshield was to grant the power of the illusion that no-one was in control.

I've always taken that almost like an injoke he has with himself. (Hence the rather absurd nature of the act.) He drives them toward their destination, but isn't in the car when they get there. No-one's in control of the car, or it seems that way, and they reach their destination with no apparent driver, though Akio has been that all along. It's almost like he's laughing and thinking 'lol I got out of the driver's seat and now you'll think you got here by yourself what a dummy'. But Akio in those sequences always seems to me like a kid in a candy store, just damn near deliriously pleased with the whole thing. The jump? 'WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE' You know he's in some ways very child-like. emot-biggrin

Clarice wrote:

Saionji is one of the most perceptive characters in the series -- when he allows himself to be. He's seems to prefer the world in black and white, and it is not until the end that he accepts the fact that shades of grey aren't the exception, they're the norm...and they're not going to go away while you turn your back and look the other way.

Well that's not hard to understand. Life is so much easier in black and white. That's why it sells to us so well in politics. But that he struggles so much with that is itself proof he knew better, even early on. He sees the world in black and white but it seems to be something he struggles with even early in the series. Like he's aware of the glasses he wears to maintain it. That was more of his innocence to lose though, casting them aside. It brought a lot into focus but now there's so much to keep track of. It did at least make it harder to demonize Touga, which helped their relationship quite a bit, because prior to the last arc I suspect Saionji swore he saw horns and a tail on him.

....I'd rather like to see that myself....school-devil

Clarice wrote:

But yes, Saionji had to leave because of his expulsion -- but I think he would have left anyway. It's partly a matter of pride, I think (we'll go with the honour code so inherent to Japanese martial arts/combat), but I think he also hated what he'd become, as you say, and wanted to get away from it. He did stay, of course, but it was Wakaba who invited him...who was saving him in a way, I suppose. Was this a positive step for him or not? I am not sure, as both that and his later actions in betraying her for reinstatement do contradict what I think was running through his mind. But then why DID Saionji choose to come back? For one last try, even then? (Touga did have to bully him into it.) Or was he even then wanting to just be there when everything finally went down? I guess it depends on your intepretation of why Saionji duelled for that last time. I'm going with the "he was so shocked at what Touga was doing/Akio had done he lost his temper." And we know Saionji without a keel = bad news.

You know, that's probably true. Or if he hadn't left the school, he'd have withdrawn from his role in the Seitokai for a while. He does seem very wrapped up in the honor codes. Strange...we're registering that as a breach of honor but it doesn't count when he beats Anthy. Yay double-standards? I suspect ultimately the shame of his actions were outweighed by the shame of his expulsion, so he decided to come back. In episode 25 he swears off dueling, but...well he's a hothead and rather easily convinced to go on a rampage. emot-frown
'I'm doing the right thing and getting out of the stupid duels.'
'lol bitch you pussed out emot-tongue'
'FUCK YOU GIMMIE A SWORD I'LL FUCK UTENA UP emot-mademot-mademot-mademot-mademot-mad'

Like a guy that goes to the bar and swears every time he's not going to get wasted, and yet...

Of course, aggression is something you can get addicted to. The chemistry alone, the arousal and the rush? And it's psychologically comforting, which is the idea behind beating up a pillow. I would imagine it's a lot like masturbation when you're ashamed of it. You wanna, you wanna, you do it, it feels great and then you're calm...and you feel like a total animal.

A tendency toward such behaviors makes me think Saionji does a lot of masturbating.

Clarice wrote:

I like this, a lot. It also possibly says something about why Saionji acted as Touga's Rose Bride; he knew he wasn't going to be able to stop Touga, so instead of trying to stop him, he just stands by his side. United we stand...united they fall. Quite an interesting development of what was apparently never a real "friendship" during the series...at least not until the revolution, as such.

I almost want to call Saionji's role in that duel him humouring Touga, except there was no humor. Indulgence, perhaps. I think Saionji knows very well Touga's going to lose, and that he's being led to the slaughter, but like attracts like, and for all we see of it in Saionji, Touga is damn near as stubborn. There's nothing you could drill into Touga's head that would be more effective than letting him lose. Perhaps in a strange way it's like the gift they gave each other over the course of the series. Letting the other lose. Touga might not have meant it as a gift of course, but still it was what Saionji needed, and it's what Touga needed. I don't think for any of the other duelists is actually losing the duels so helpful.

Clarice wrote:

Saionji would still have every right to think that Touga had been an ass of a friend for doing that to him. But I think perhaps by the end of the series he'd come to accept Touga for what he was. I love that little coda with the duel and Nanami making tea. Hee.

I think that's basically it. He made peace with Touga being an ass, with the knowledge he's at least not purely evil, or that now Saionji feels more prepared to deal with him. I think the key was ultimately realizing Touga needs him. This doesn't necessarily assure Touga would never fuck him over again, but at least that it would never benefit him to do so quite as much as he'd think it would. It made all the difference in the world, seeing there's something in him that makes him if not 'better' than not absolutely inferior, and that the price of those 'betters' weren't often things Saionji himself would find worth the reward. It sounds terrible, but now there's something Saionji can look down on Touga for, disapprove of, without the motivating feeling being jealousy. He saw the upkeep in Touga's status and decided 'you have fun with that but it's really not for me', and it calmed him down. Touga's not so great after all, he's competing in an arena Saionji would have no part in. Otherwise, it would have become a twisted competitive sex triangle.

Not that that doesn't sound like an awesome fic.... etc-wankgirl


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#4 | Back to Top02-19-2007 09:18:19 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

There was something I was going to reply to with this, but I forgot. But the idea of Saionji wanting to be saved by Touga (and being his princess ;3 ) seems very right-on to me.

Maybe little Saionji just thought that opening a coffin with a little girl in it was creepy. But the way he wanted him and Touga to just leave her alone so quickly does seem like a good sign of an abusive family background. Abuse victims usually feel like that have to ignore the problem, or that it's their own fault and they deserve it and they just have to suck it up.

And Touga with his very adventurous, curious attitude, seems fitting for being raised in a rich family where he's given too much freedom.

We do know that Saionji thought that Touga showed Utena something eternal when she was little, and he definitely seemed jealous and hurt. The idea that he was also jealous because he wanted to be saved from something is very fitting, too. Maybe with the abusive family thing.

(Sorry if my response was rather repetitive. It's been a while since I've seen those episodes. emot-redface )


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

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#5 | Back to Top02-23-2007 01:11:26 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

Advance warning, I am not attempting to provide a coherent theory, I'm just being suggestive.

Don't take this the wrong way but I really don't understand the Saionji fan club.  First of all why always assume that he grew up in a physically abusive household? I've been as guilty of pop-psych as anyone but there are alternative explanations for his treatment of Anthy. There is no evidence that he physically mistreats anyone else but her.

It's plausible that he was a "good" kid from a "good" environment. Instead of being abusive perhaps his father was gone all the time and he was raised by his mother. He had a hard time cutting the apron strings. Well naturally red-blooded girls never want to have anything to do with little boys like that, they like the rough and tough sort so he chose that as his model.

He may have been a nerdish romantic who studied Kendo the way other nerds study chess or D&D.

His bad temper may stem from the bad luck he had with girls until he shaped up and became a cool, cruel stylish warrior-type. Then the fan-girls started swarming around him. That would corrupts anyone's soul.

Perhaps Anthy was another blow to his romanticism. His theme seems to be: "I have seen the world as it really is!" It's a very bitter view and not at all innocent. Which leads to another question, why assume that he's a virgin? Nerd or not most boys would take full advantage of the Rose Bride's favors. In the end even Miki would have.

Anthy was a bottomless cup that gave no real satisfaction. Romanticism and rescue fantasy was not working, materialism and possession was not working, victory did not bring peace; sexual gratification was starting to pale, and Anthy was filling him with disgust; that alone would make anyone crazy.

OTOH notice that he cannot go home again after he is expelled. Perhaps his parents were cold, unforgiving perfectionists. Since he could excel in Kendo he pursued it. It would bring him some small measure of happiness and perhaps parental approval.

Or perhaps he was just plain spoiled.

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#6 | Back to Top02-23-2007 04:17:28 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

brian wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way but I really don't understand the Saionji fan club.  First of all why always assume that he grew up in a physically abusive household?

A lot of his behavior is suggestive of prior abuse. I don't actually assume it was physical in nature, though it does kinda stand to reason by his violent nature, which...

brian wrote:

There is no evidence that he physically mistreats anyone else but her.

He sends Miki clear across the rose garden and attacks Utena with a katana, clearly meaning to cause rather serious injury. People also accuse him of being an especially dirty fighter, since he kicks Utena. I tend to think that's a restriction of using a two-handed weapon.

brian wrote:

It's plausible that he was a "good" kid from a "good" environment. Instead of being abusive perhaps his father was gone all the time and he was raised by his mother. He had a hard time cutting the apron strings. Well naturally red-blooded girls never want to have anything to do with little boys like that, they like the rough and tough sort so he chose that as his model.

He may have been a nerdish romantic who studied Kendo the way other nerds study chess or D&D.

His bad temper may stem from the bad luck he had with girls until he shaped up and became a cool, cruel stylish warrior-type. Then the fan-girls started swarming around him. That would corrupts anyone's soul.

Hey I like that. emot-keke It's definitely another way to look at it! One character, several interpretations. I suppose the reason I've never processed this one is that when given the opportunity, it's so easy to see the characters as pairs. Saionji and Touga, I get the impression the series means for you to see them at the same time, that they're kinda a foil to each other, in which case that interpretation seems less...fitting? I suppose. I think it's entirely likely there is a romantic streak in Saionji, and if the girls didn't bash it in, no doubt Touga did. A true romantic watching that charade work? As for nerdy, I would agree and I think he is a bit of a nerd in any interpretation including mine.

brian wrote:

Which leads to another question, why assume that he's a virgin? Nerd or not most boys would take full advantage of the Rose Bride's favors. In the end even Miki would have.

It's part of Miki's character to see the evolution of his knowing what he wants from Anthy. And I don't think all of them would use Anthy that way. Touga didn't. As to Saionji's virginity, it's based on an idea the movie sealed for me. (One of the few uses I had for it.) Saionji's such a hostile character, it's hard to believe he's sexually active, or we'd have seen some indication of it either way involving his violent behavior. Just the slightest suggestion he would be sexually aggressive toward, say, Anthy. I tend to give the series credit in that it would have shown us that had it been there. Of course it's entirely possible he's not a virgin, though even in that case I would habitually call him one because he acts like one. At the very least it's quite clear sex isn't something he spends a lot of time doing.

brian wrote:

Anthy was a bottomless cup that gave no real satisfaction. Romanticism and rescue fantasy was not working, materialism and possession was not working, victory did not bring peace; sexual gratification was starting to pale, and Anthy was filling him with disgust; that alone would make anyone crazy.

Adjusted for my assuming he doesn't have sex with Anthy, this is exactly what went on there, I think. She definitely brings out the worst in him.

brian wrote:

Or perhaps he was just plain spoiled.

I don't know about this. When he's with Wakaba, he's very appreciative, genuinely so I think, and never assumes he'll get anything from her. He acts spoiled at Ohtori in that he thinks the world belongs to him, but it's quite clear how little he believes his own lie there. Nanami...now that's spoiled. emot-aaa

brian wrote:

Advance warning, I am not attempting to provide a coherent theory, I'm just being suggestive.

Don't take this the wrong way but I really don't understand the Saionji fan club.

Don't worry, I think most people don't understand it. He just has a couple very loud fans around here. emot-keke And sucks to your coherent theories! It's great to see other ideas here, is the point of these threads! In another thread Clarice said a lot of the draw for her with Saionji was that you have to do some school-sherlock work to find him, the series doesn't give you much in the way of direct help. It's true and it's great but it leaves a lot of possibilities, only one of which yours truly is going to harp on. emot-keke


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#7 | Back to Top02-23-2007 09:33:54 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

You've made a lot of good points but I want to take issue with your statement that:

Giovanna wrote:

As to Saionji's virginity, it's based on an idea the movie sealed for me. (One of the few uses I had for it.) Saionji's such a hostile character, it's hard to believe he's sexually active, or we'd have seen some indication of it either way involving his violent behavior. Just the slightest suggestion he would be sexually aggressive toward, say, Anthy. I tend to give the series credit in that it would have shown us that had it been there. Of course it's entirely possible he's not a virgin, though even in that case I would habitually call him one because he acts like one. At the very least it's quite clear sex isn't something he spends a lot of time doing.

Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding but it sounds like you believe that aggression is caused by sexual frustration and that people who have all the sex they want are not aggressive or violent because of that. I just don't think that is at all true. I suppose that many people with strong relationships avoid dicey situations specifically because they know that their loved ones would want them to, but that's not quite the same thing.

As for Touga, he avoids Anthy because he knows or suspects her basic dangerousness and unreliability. He may have done so based in part on seeing what happened to Saionji. For all we know Saionji may have been a much more stable character before he got involved with Anthy, although I admit that's a bit unlikely.

Last edited by brian (02-23-2007 09:34:43 PM)

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#8 | Back to Top02-24-2007 12:43:24 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

I think you are misunderstanding a little, brian. I think what Gio was getting at was more that because Saionji is hostile, it drives away any outlet he has for sex aside from his hand. Who really wants to sleep with a guy that hostile? And why would he ever admit to someone that he wanted to sleep with them if doing so meant that he had to curry favor with that person to get laid? Anthy falls beyond either of these quarters, it's true, but I tend to agree with Gio that the show would have made some indication of it if it had happened. After all, when he spoke to Anthy!Utena about 'sharing their love' and we all thought he was gonna do something dirty, he brought out an exchange diary where he wrote fantasies about how he would conquer Utena to be with Anthy again instead. If nowhere else, that scene with Anthy!Utena would have been easy to slip even a kiss into-- but there isn't one. At all, through the entire series. Substituting romantic fantasies, no matter how ill-put, for sexual interaction of any kind doesn't strike me as the way someone in a sexual relationship would act.


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#9 | Back to Top02-24-2007 06:43:01 PM

brian
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Registered: 10-22-2006
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

I forgot about that diary. He keeps insisting that there is no true friendship but he has that diary, but he coerces Anthy into sharing it with him ... what a mess.

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#10 | Back to Top03-02-2007 09:27:35 AM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

brian wrote:

Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding but it sounds like you believe that aggression is caused by sexual frustration and that people who have all the sex they want are not aggressive or violent because of that.

Yasha pretty much covered this for me, but no, I don't believe that at all. Actually it's more the other direction added on top of what Yasha said. He's violent and I think it's, at that point in his development, something that could come out in his sexuality as a similarly violent and dominating impulse.

As it is, he's so rough around the edges that he'd scare off just about anyone that paid any attention to him, quite on purpose, subconsciously. It's one of the reasons I don't think he thought Wakaba was serious about him, had he sensed that, I suspect he'd have gone into OH GOD GET IT AWAY mode.

The diary I think is more of what I discussed in the body language thread, that Saionji seems to have a difficult time with understanding you don't combine affection and violence. If he understands that conflict, it's not enough to stop him. At the same time, you have to account for how far removed anything he and Anthy share is from real affection...


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#11 | Back to Top03-10-2007 07:24:22 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

I re-watched a few of the earlier episodes you guys mentioned above and I just realized that Saoinji was actually quite gullible. In the manga his coffin was called assumption and gullibility and snap-judgment seems quite close to assumption. He is always fighting yesterday's war. Being repeatedly manipulated by Touga would explain a lot of what he is. And with Saoinji and Nanami to practice twisting around his finger Touga started becoming very manipulative early on.

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#12 | Back to Top03-10-2007 08:13:29 PM

Hysterical Woman
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

The funny thing is that the exchange diary is such an important key to Saionji, and yet its revealed in a "filler" episode. Just goes to show that you shouldn't miss the Nanami episodes emot-wink.


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#13 | Back to Top03-11-2007 04:34:22 AM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

brian wrote:

I re-watched a few of the earlier episodes you guys mentioned above and I just realized that Saoinji was actually quite gullible. In the manga his coffin was called assumption and gullibility and snap-judgment seems quite close to assumption. He is always fighting yesterday's war. Being repeatedly manipulated by Touga would explain a lot of what he is. And with Saoinji and Nanami to practice twisting around his finger Touga started becoming very manipulative early on.

Oh yes, he's totally gullible. If you told him that gullible wasn't in the dictionary, he'd find the nearest dictionary to check. However, he is also perceptive, and between Gio and I, we've roughed out (not for sure, but as a general rule) that he tends to be gullible when his emotions are involved, and perceptive when he's distanced from the situation he is watching. Which falls right into line with what you've said; since his emotions are involved with Touga, he is very easily tricked by Touga, and the same goes for Anthy. Poor boy can't see what's right in front of him if either of those two are involved.

Hysterical Woman wrote:

The funny thing is that the exchange diary is such an important key to Saionji, and yet its revealed in a "filler" episode. Just goes to show that you shouldn't miss the Nanami episodes emot-wink.

Hell no. The filler episodes always contain important information. I guess they're Ikuhara and Saito's way of saying 'Yeah, we know you don't like sitting through this-- here, have an analysis bonanza.'


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#14 | Back to Top03-13-2007 07:04:59 AM

Giovanna
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

Yasha wrote:

Oh yes, he's totally gullible. If you told him that gullible wasn't in the dictionary, he'd find the nearest dictionary to check.

emot-gonk Oh god, it's true. emot-gonk

Yasha wrote:

However, he is also perceptive, and between Gio and I, we've roughed out (not for sure, but as a general rule) that he tends to be gullible when his emotions are involved, and perceptive when he's distanced from the situation he is watching. Which falls right into line with what you've said; since his emotions are involved with Touga, he is very easily tricked by Touga, and the same goes for Anthy. Poor boy can't see what's right in front of him if either of those two are involved.

Yeah, like he's observationally farsighted. The moment it gets close, he doesn't know what's going on. Touga and Anthy are definitely sore spots, but he's also blind about Wakaba. I honestly think he had no idea, that if he understood she liked him at all, it wasn't at all in terms of how much she meant it.

Anthy...I wonder about. I think he understood what was going on better than he'd like to admit, and that it's part of the fuel that makes him so violent with her. Touga tends not so much to trick him, but set him off. Which I guess is the same thing but in my head there's a minor but important difference. When he's not in the process of being thrown for a loop, he knows it's something that could be done to him.

Yasha wrote:

Hysterical Woman wrote:

The funny thing is that the exchange diary is such an important key to Saionji, and yet its revealed in a "filler" episode. Just goes to show that you shouldn't miss the Nanami episodes emot-wink.

Hell no. The filler episodes always contain important information. I guess they're Ikuhara and Saito's way of saying 'Yeah, we know you don't like sitting through this-- here, have an analysis bonanza.'

RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP AKIO AND UTENA HAVE SEX

HEY GUYZ WERE YOU PAYING ATTENTION?


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#15 | Back to Top03-13-2007 02:51:41 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

Giovanna wrote:

Yeah, like he's observationally farsighted. The moment it gets close, he doesn't know what's going on. Touga and Anthy are definitely sore spots, but he's also blind about Wakaba. I honestly think he had no idea, that if he understood she liked him at all, it wasn't at all in terms of how much she meant it.

Anthy...I wonder about. I think he understood what was going on better than he'd like to admit, and that it's part of the fuel that makes him so violent with her. Touga tends not so much to trick him, but set him off. Which I guess is the same thing but in my head there's a minor but important difference. When he's not in the process of being thrown for a loop, he knows it's something that could be done to him.

I think that's very true -- Saionji really doesn't "mature" in the perception of the viewer until he sidelines himself. Which is rather interesting in and of itself, actually. emot-keke What it makes me wonder, actually, is if it there's a bit of a relativity-theory parallel-viewpoint thing going on here between Utena and Saionji. I mean, at the beginning of the show? Saionji stands beside Anthy and comes across as -- quite frankly -- absolute batshit crazy (and the movie emphasises this because of its focus on other characters). Utena is at a distance and basically thinks (as that crazy dub rather aptly illustrates) that the whole situation is crazy. I mean, I think it's telling that she doesn't want to save Anthy at that moment; she's focused on the IDEA of her, and the apparent abuse she gets from Saionji. As this turns around and she gets to "know" Anthy, she becomes blinkered and actually starts to come off as a bit crazy herself. Saionji, who is now isolated to a large degree from Anthy, takes a step back and sees what is going on. And once his obsession cools...his temper cools, and he becomes one of the more objective observers of the last great revolution of the Ohtori of Utena's day.

...eh, did I have a point? I think I've forgotten what it was. [hits self in head] But I do agree with the idea that Anthy sets Saionji off -- simply because she sets everybody off. It's what she does, but Saionji in particular acts as something of a caricature around her. This is also true of Nanami. Both Nanami and Saionji bear the brunt of Anthy's twisted sense of humour, and because of that a lot of people find the characters at least somewhat distasteful. I think I find them interesting because of the fact that they have these undesirable characteristics that are hugely exaggerated for long periods and then they eventually  begin to balance them out by stepping backwards from the crazy world of Ohtori...while Utena moves forward and does the opposite. She got too close, got too obsessed, and missed the point -- or so we think. There might have been something else that couldn't be seen until you walked straight into it.

But erhm, yes, I think I've missed the point here. I'm good at that.

Giovanna wrote:

Hysterical Woman wrote:

Hell no. The filler episodes always contain important information. I guess they're Ikuhara and Saito's way of saying 'Yeah, we know you don't like sitting through this-- here, have an analysis bonanza.'

RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP AKIO AND UTENA HAVE SEX

HEY GUYZ WERE YOU PAYING ATTENTION?

I SURE WASN'T!!!! (I thought they were having lunch HAY WTF THIS LOOKS LIKE PORN YEY!) school-devil


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#16 | Back to Top07-02-2008 09:54:33 AM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

brian wrote:

I re-watched a few of the earlier episodes you guys mentioned above and I just realized that Saoinji was actually quite gullible. In the manga his coffin was called assumption and gullibility and snap-judgment seems quite close to assumption. He is always fighting yesterday's war. Being repeatedly manipulated by Touga would explain a lot of what he is. And with Saoinji and Nanami to practice twisting around his finger Touga started becoming very manipulative early on.

I wasn't sure if the word 'assomption' really existed in French, so I dug out my Larousse and looked it up. It does indeed exist, but it means something completely different. Assomption is a religious term referring to Mary's ascent to Heaven after her death. This might be referring to the 'eternity' Saionji thought Touga showed Utena.

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#17 | Back to Top07-02-2008 12:23:35 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Jealousy and wanting to be saved. Another Saionji thread by Gio!

Oh fine, sure, start an awesome Saionji discussion thread on the day I leave for vacations, when I have all of five minutes at my disposal to post before I leave.

emot-mad


I will be re-reading it in its entirety when I get back and contribute something, though.  etc-loveetc-loveetc-love

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