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Gougai! Gougai!

Hey I know you have opinions, put them in here! Translation suggestions for episodes 25-39, thanks all for your help!

ALSO!!! After the Revolution is now translated, scanlated, and ready for consumption! Thanks to everyone that's helped out! Ayu, you're awesome. Download here!

#1 | Back to Top08-07-2017 04:03:12 PM

DrCornelius
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 06-15-2010
Posts: 23

The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

-WARNING: AFTER THE REVOLUTION SPOILERS
also big text dump








After the Revolution shows that Touga/Nanami, Saionji, and Utena all lost their parents in the same event, and that many children also died. I have a theory that  this was an act of mass murder by a evil magic user that we haven't seen yet, who will serve as a major villain for new Utena chapters. For simplicity's sake, I'm going to call our hypothetical child-murderer "X". This is just massive guessing(using aspects of anime and manga), but hopefully will be an enjoyable read.

*We know Miki's parents are alive (but having marital issues, which may or may not be relevant), but we don't know about Juri, or any of the other recurring character's family in SKU. Their lives may have been spared by something as mundane as "Juri's dad decided not to take her to the park that Saturday." But the ones we know to be orphans, apparently all 6 of those parents died in "The Disaster".  That strikes me as way too important to be a coincidence.

*If we interpret *The Disaster* as being an attack meant to kill Ohtori Duelists years ahead of time, the culprit would have to be a magic user in order to know about The Revolution, and be so strongly motivated to prevent it. X has some (limited) degree of clairvoyance. Limited because X knew that there were children there who grow up to become Duelists, but X didn't know Utena would win. So X waits for the moment that the largest number of potential Duelists gathers in one area, and makes a brutal strike.

Exactly how this murder was pulled off is not mentioned in any way, but I think that in itself is a very telling clue - Why does nobody involved remember the cause of this horrible event that claimed so many lives? They remember certain events that happen immediately afterward, but the cause itself seems to be completely lost - like the memory wiping of Utena post-Revolution, except with many more details erased over time. This is my strongest evidence that "The Disaster" is the work of a hypothetical 'X" and not a freak accident or terrorist attack.

*It's entirely possible that "The Disaster" was orchestrated by Anthy/Akio, but I don't think it's them. First reason being, if they know a bunch of future Duelists are going to be in one place, why attack them? This event likely killed many potential Duelists, and could have single handedly killed everyone in the SKU cast besides Anthy/Akio. I get the feeling that's exactly what the intent was. There is a precedent for the two committing mass murder, but the Black Rose Saga event seems different from this - The burning of the building was on campus, controlled, and left no survivors.  "The Disaster" is an indiscriminate attack against civilians, comparatively sloppy, and ironically caused the very thing it was intended to prevent - Revolution. Anthy/Akio WANTED Revolution to happen. X does not.

*So going off the previous assumptions, I'm assuming that X is an enemy of Dios/Anthy/Akio. They made it a point to say that Anthy had to protect her brother in the fairy tale segments, it seems to suggest that he's just being protected from murderous villagers. Perhaps there's more of a threat than that? Nobody is going after him with a pitchfork while he's acting as Chairman, so what is he being protected from? Part of my theory is that Anthy/Akio stay on the Campus at all times partly because the location acts a defense barrier - X cannot interfere with Ohtori, possibly not even able to enter physically. But when a Duelist leaves Ohtori (other than Nanami humor episodes), what happens?

*Mikage - Seemingly vanishes from existence, whether you view it as him being banished or a dead man being returned to the afterlife is up to interpretation, but nobody sees or remembers him afterwards.

*Ruka - Is fatally ill, dies the very next day after leaving the Academy.


*X would be a magic user on par with Anthy or stronger, and also immensely evil, the most evil person in the series thus far. X has no problem with collateral damage or killing people, even children. The most logical motivation I can think of for perpetrating The Disaster, is that X wants to kill off anyone with a strong magical power who could threaten them. It has echoes of Black Rose saga, and also King Herod and Kronos, which to me seems fitting for the loose "fairy tale" theming. X has never been seen before, and likely attacks from a long distance, killing off foes with disease and Final Destination style "accidents". Exactly what their plans are beyond "maintaining power" I have no idea, but probably something horrible.

*I think the reason The Disaster is being brought back up, is as a starting point to introduce X into the story. If I'm right and The Disaster is a murder, that would be the single biggest case of "Unfinished Business"in the entire series, and I can't really think of anything else that would be a larger focal point for new Utena chapters - if Akio is defeated, Anthy is free, where do you go from there? This could be *it.* Especially for the manga specifically, the one telling of the story where Utena herself is explicitly shown to gain magical power - thus making her a direct enemy of X. And Utena would be entirely willing to take up that fight when she finds out what X is already responsible for.

Granted this sounds extremely Shonen-esque with "Evil warlock/witch is responsible for the main characters being orphans, and a Dios-Utena is going to duel him/her"  but yet at the same time it makes a lot of sense to me.

*also, X could be multiple individuals and not just one person.

Last edited by DrCornelius (08-07-2017 07:03:30 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top08-07-2017 05:51:20 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1308
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Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

DrCornelius wrote:

-WARNING: AFTER THE REVOLUTION SPOILERS
also big text dump

*It's entirely possible that "The Disaster" was orchestrated by Anthy/Akio, but I don't think it's them. First reason being, if they know a bunch of future Duelists are going to be in one place, why attack them? This event likely killed many potential Duelists, and could have single handedly killed everyone in the SKU cast besides Anthy/Akio. I get the feeling that's exactly what the intent was. There is a precedent for the two committing mass murder, but the Black Rose Saga event seems different from this - The burning of the building was on campus, controlled, and left no survivors.  "The Disaster" is an indiscriminate attack against civilians, comparatively sloppy, and ironically caused the very thing it was intended to prevent - Revolution. Anthy/Akio WANTED Revolution to happen. X does not.

Anthy and Akio may or may not have orchestrated the mass-death event.  They were, however, clearly present in the aftermath to "bewitch" Utena, Touga, Saionji and god knows how many more orphans present on scene.   Note how T and S were led by a scattering of rose petals to go through a door, which led to the church nave housing the 3 Tenjou Coffins.  Note also how, just like in the anime, the coffins all got rose motifs on them.  If those aren't enough visual clues, I don't know what is.


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 42 as of Aug 08, 2017)
(NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016)
(BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#3 | Back to Top08-07-2017 06:55:36 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
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Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

This is a good conversation and I will try to post later with more useful commentary.

But for now, I think I just want to point out that unless this disaster specifies otherwise, the original manga iirc mentions Utena's parents dying in a car accident.

Which uh...kinda points in a particular direction, and I seriously can totally see Akio causing a code orange mass casualty incident. I mean, he could have done that on accident, given the way he drives. emot-rolleyes


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#4 | Back to Top08-07-2017 07:18:35 PM

DrCornelius
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 06-15-2010
Posts: 23

Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Anthy and Akio may or may not have orchestrated the mass-death event.  They were, however, clearly present in the aftermath to "bewitch" Utena, Touga, Saionji and god knows how many more orphans present on scene.   Note how T and S were led by a scattering of rose petals to go through a door, which led to the church nave housing the 3 Tenjou Coffins.  Note also how, just like in the anime, the coffins all got rose motifs on them.  If those aren't enough visual clues, I don't know what is.

They definitely intervened after the fact, though it's hard to interpret their role without more information. Were they grooming their little duelists for the future, after causing the disaster? Or were they performing damage control after an unexpected attack, and trying to preserve the kids that survived? We know Dios appears and interacts with the suicidal Utena directly, but it could go either way.

If there is no X, and Anthy is directly responsible for killing Utena's parents - holy shit, that would be the biggest plot twist ever. I can't imagine how Utena would react to that, their relationship might be irreversibly changed...That would piss a lot of people off.  Although there's no guarantee the new story won't have a gut-crushingly depressing ending, so who knows.

But for now, I think I just want to point out that unless this disaster specifies otherwise, the original manga iirc mentions Utena's parents dying in a car accident.

I don't recall a car accident being explicitly stated, but it's been many years since I read the manga, and I might have been reading an inaccurate version.

Which uh...kinda points in a particular direction, and I seriously can totally see Akio causing a code orange mass casualty incident. I mean, he could have done that on accident, given the way he drives. emot-rolleyes

That probably would not have left any survivors. emot-gonk

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#5 | Back to Top08-07-2017 08:56:59 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
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Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

In case it wasn't already obvious before, I wanna make clear my gratitude towards DrCornelius for starting this truly thought-provoking thread emot-dance

DrCornelius wrote:

They definitely intervened after the fact, though it's hard to interpret their role without more information. Were they grooming their little duelists for the future, after causing the disaster? Or were they performing damage control after an unexpected attack, and trying to preserve the kids that survived?

After the Revolution 2017 is interesting in how it is mixing elements from 3 different, conflicting Utena continuities.  To make sense of what's been revealed in this new manga debut chapter, we'd have to assume that things not explicitly stated as conflicting are the indeed identical between the continuities.

So, were Double A "grooming" child duelists for future? 

Anime: Remember Anthy's own petting zoo as shown in Nanami's Egg Ep?  And Akio and Anthy feeding Kanae the Apple?  Grooming potential pawns/playthings for future use does seem characteristic of Double A here.  Plus remember the Black Rose Arc and the need for BR Duelists?  The Student Council alone is obviously not enough for Double A’s plans.  So Double A has got a) great powers b) creepy "groomer"  inclination.   Would the ruthless, powerful likes of Double A have proactively engineered some mass-duelist production -- aka disaster hurting/killing many -- ahead of time?  Or would they simply have stayed passive and just hope for some convenient turn of fate to further their highly prioritized plan?  I say the former is more true to their characters.

Manga: Akio flat out states that Utena's ring is the only real Rose Signet, meaning the rest of the Student Council Duelists could just be incidental pawns that are likely replaceable.  Mikage is the only BR Duelist shown.  Still, the fact that a BR Duelist even exist does point to how SC Duelists are not enough for Double A’s purpose.  Mass-duelist production (aka disaster) ahead of time remain highly probable and in character.

Movie:
Too nonsensical for me to speculate on much of anything, really.  Double MA seem incapable of even coherent plotting, let alone mass-duelist production.

If there is no X, and Anthy is directly responsible for killing Utena's parents - holy shit, that would be the biggest plot twist ever. I can't imagine how Utena would react to that, their relationship might be irreversibly changed...

Canonically speaking, Anthy is, at the very least, directly responsible for fiddling with the Tenjou couple's corpses ala rose motif coffin.  That is a hugely disrespectful gesture in Asian culture (and other cultures as well, I believe).  I doubt anime/manga Utena had ever dwelled upon this aspect of their first meeting – she apparently never fully remember the event, not even after EP 35 - or even she’d blow up at Anthy and Akio for using her parents’ remains for some sick manipulation scheme.         

On a non-canon related note in case anyone’s interested:
[Anthy being directly responsible for killing Utena's parents is actually the core conflict in Seinen Kakumei Utena.  ]


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 42 as of Aug 08, 2017)
(NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016)
(BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#6 | Back to Top08-07-2017 10:18:24 PM

DrCornelius
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 06-15-2010
Posts: 23

Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

Utena does seem like the one that A&A were placing their bets on as the winner(in all continuities), a likely reason Dios appears to her specifically.


Movie: Too nonsensical for me to speculate on much of anything, really.  Double MA seem incapable of even coherent plotting, let alone mass-duelist production.

In a way they succeeded in doing this, that's what the armored purple cars are - an army meant to kill anyone trying to escape Ohtori, because that risks breaking the illusion for everyone else. It's like a metaphor for cults.

I could definitely see A&A being responsible, ESPECIALLY the anime version),But if Anthy's revealed to have killed Utena's parents, I think the damage to their relationship would be irreparable. Very tragic ending, that would be.

Other thoughts;

*Burning the students at Nemuro Hall for the purpose of fueling magic - where did A&A get this idea from, and know that it would work? That's not something Dios would ever be doing. Could be borrowing a black magic trick from their enemies?


*There's a really odd bit during After The Revolution where Saionji mentions an artist named Rime who "kidnapped and abused scores of children" and is still "collecting children at his art school", Touga says he doesn't care and continues to deal his art anyway, and they fight over it. It feels really random and out-of-place, unless this Rime is being introduced for future chapters... not to mention, Rime is mentioned immediately after the Disaster flashback.


*This white-haired character behind Utena, appears to be someone entirely new. Yet, Utena has an extremely minor role and White-Hair isn't even seen in *After The Revolution*. Foreshadowing?
This character isn't necessarily X, but I'm thinking White-Hair must be important somehow.

http://i.imgur.com/XyBXfau.png



*Between the manga, the movie, and the anime, SKU has hit almost every major taboo except for two really notable ones;

Child murder, and cannibalism

If a villain who's into both shows up, God help the cast.

Last edited by DrCornelius (08-07-2017 10:32:55 PM)

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#7 | Back to Top08-08-2017 10:27:16 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
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Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

DrCornelius wrote:

In a way they succeeded in doing this, that's what the armored purple cars are - an army meant to kill anyone trying to escape Ohtori, because that risks breaking the illusion for everyone else. It's like a metaphor for cults.

Good point on locust cars, and for mentioning metaphor. Because in this "Rime" bit:

*There's a really odd bit during After The Revolution where Saionji mentions an artist named Rime who "kidnapped and abused scores of children" and is still "collecting children at his art school", Touga says he doesn't care and continues to deal his art anyway, and they fight over it. It feels really random and out-of-place, unless this Rime is being introduced for future chapters... not to mention, Rime is mentioned immediately after the Disaster flashback.

Rime's inclusion seems to be Saito's way of making explicit how Ohtori Duelists are akin to those kidnapped/abused/collected children.  Saionji apparently identify with such children, and is appalled that "fellow victim" Touga is unmoved, leading to the in-chapter duel. 

I could definitely see A&A being responsible, ESPECIALLY the anime version),But if Anthy's revealed to have killed Utena's parents, I think the damage to their relationship would be irreparable. Very tragic ending, that would be.

It's a highly-likely in-canon possibility, that with the Tenjou's manga cause of death being supposedly an engineer-able car accident (and I do mean CAR "accident").

*Burning the students at Nemuro Hall for the purpose of fueling magic - where did A&A get this idea from, and know that it would work? That's not something Dios would ever be doing. Could be borrowing a black magic trick from their enemies?

Sacrifices being needed to enact positive/negative magic is also present in Ikuni's Penguindrum, in the form of the fire-backslash/existence-erasure from the Fate Train Transfer.  Remember, even in the ancient Tale of the Rose, it was Dios' self-damaging overwork as "Prince" (a self sacrifice) that kept the World bright and shiny.  It makes sense that after Dios becomes a frustrated idealist-turned cynic ala Akio, he's abandon self-sacrifice for sacrificing others . . .

*This white-haired character behind Utena, appears to be someone entirely new. Yet, Utena has an extremely minor role and White-Hair isn't even seen in *After The Revolution*. Foreshadowing?
This character isn't necessarily X, but I'm thinking White-Hair must be important somehow.

Do we know for sure that character is from the 2017 SKU Manga?  Or, perhaps she's from another story in the Flower Magazine?


*Between the manga, the movie, and the anime, SKU has hit almost every major taboo except for two really notable ones;

Child murder, and cannibalism

If a villain who's into both shows up, God help the cast.

Urm . . . I think Anime!Anthy alone already covered both - the cannibalism at least metaphorically speaking - by becoming the 12 yr old "Mamiya" who manipulated Mikage for decades.


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 42 as of Aug 08, 2017)
(NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016)
(BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#8 | Back to Top08-08-2017 02:07:01 PM

DrCornelius
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 06-15-2010
Posts: 23

Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

Do we know for sure that character is from the 2017 SKU Manga?  Or, perhaps she's from another story in the Flower Magazine?

Oh, that didn't even occur to me. I haven't seen anything from the magazine, so I have no idea.

EDIT: If X shows up, it would be cool to use that scrapped concept from the movie about characters that are formed from swarms of flies - could make for a dark mirror of the scene with Utena appearing from an exploding rose.

Last edited by DrCornelius (08-08-2017 02:35:25 PM)

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#9 | Back to Top08-10-2017 06:11:49 AM

anthy_himemiya
New Student
Registered: 08-05-2017
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Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

Dude, I really really hope that it isn't revealed that Anthy killed Utena's parents. That's something that could ruin the whole franchise for me.

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#10 | Back to Top08-13-2017 03:35:24 PM

pagetheplush
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Registered: 10-30-2015
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Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

While the shipper in me is heartbroken over these theories, the sadistic part of me is filled with a perverse glee over the idea of an even more sinister underlying scheme. school-devil It would make things so much more upsetting...yet so much juicier.


🌹Let's become like rose petals, blowing free!🌹

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#11 | Back to Top08-14-2017 05:43:34 PM

Arale
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Registered: 12-07-2014
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Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

Here's a theory that I don't actually believe but think it's interesting to think about: What if this mysterious force has something to do with Ohtori's sister school in Amsterdam? I doubt that will actually come up, but they're both weird unexplained plot threads, so...

Giovanna wrote:

But for now, I think I just want to point out that unless this disaster specifies otherwise, the original manga iirc mentions Utena's parents dying in a car accident.

I don't think it does. I only skimmed the prologue just now, but every time they mentioned the topic they didn't give any specifics, and most of the stuff in the prologue doesn't really come up again, so I don't think it's mentioned anywhere else.


im a shadow play girl irl

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#12 | Back to Top08-15-2017 10:18:56 PM

Archambeau
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Registered: 11-20-2006
Posts: 499

Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

I always felt like A&A were trying to recreate, down to the smallest detail, the "ideal" situations to produce a prince who could regain the power of Dios for them. My interpretation of the movie is that these aren't the same characters at all, but archetypes that a severely-weakened Akio shoved into the same roles as Utena's batch of duelists in a last-ditch effort to replicate a successful experiment. To that end, I have to also throw my lot in with those thinking A&A are behind this accident. A severe trauma is needed to make a child latch all of their hopes onto fairy-tale notions of princes, miracles, and eternity, so they launched a direct attack and scooped up the survivors.

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#13 | Back to Top08-16-2017 09:29:45 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: The Ohtori Orphans - Unseen Villain theory

Archambeau wrote:

I have to also throw my lot in with those thinking A&A are behind this accident. A severe trauma is needed to make a child latch all of their hopes onto fairy-tale notions of princes, miracles, and eternity, so they launched a direct attack and scooped up the survivors.

Word to the whole thing.


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 42 as of Aug 08, 2017)
(NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016)
(BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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