You are not logged in.

Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#176 | Back to Top03-23-2007 11:33:52 AM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

The differences in hair is really interesting.. But now I'm confused. Episode 15 has Kozue's flashback, and which one has Miki's? I'd like to check. (Because I'm confused. emot-confused ) But that's pretty neat. Ah, Miki and Kozue. etc-love


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

Offline

 

#177 | Back to Top03-23-2007 12:29:55 PM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Miki's flashback was in episode 4, I think.

Offline

 

#178 | Back to Top03-23-2007 02:22:40 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Hina the Prince wrote:

Sorry if you found that offending, I didn't think that saying "no" would be rude.

It's not so much offensive as that when you're very brusque in what you say people take it as anger or irritation, and that makes people uncomfortable talking. I really do want everyone to feel comfortable talking here.


Hat Mafia Member: Ratchedface
Je vais mourir pour l ' a e s t h e t i q u e
Internet Atrocity Tourist             -           MY POSTS             ARE WARSHIPS

Offline

 

#179 | Back to Top03-23-2007 07:49:03 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Before I forget about this, in episode 36, right after Akio says he doesn't really care for the stars, they pan down the window in Utena and Anthy's room. The sky in the window is rotating the way a sky does over the course of a full evening, but at a speed you can see in the shot. Just like in a planetarium. school-eng101

Edit: However, the sky in the actual planetarium Akio, Touga and Saionji are having a camera party in a scene later...doesn't move. The suggestion, I would imagine, being that the 'real' stars are in the planetarium with them. The state that Utena's in is part of the illusion; it's not really her, but rather the illusion of herself Akio's pushed on her. Of course, you could also read that as the illusion in the room being Anthy...


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

Offline

 

#180 | Back to Top03-24-2007 01:05:40 PM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 962

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

dollface wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

Now for more YamPuff noticing irrelevant things!! school-eng101school-eng101school-eng101school-sherlockschool-sherlock

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/ … /Kozue.jpg

When Miki flashbacks about himself and his sister, Kozua has pretty curly hair, a fancy dress and a big bow. However, when Kozue flashbacks, her hairstyle is exactly the same as her current self, and no bow in sight.

How perfectly fitting is that? Brilliant. etc-loveetc-love

As great an observation as this is, if you'll watch episode 15, you'll see that Kozue's flashback is the one with the curly hair and bow.

I'd have to watch 15 again; it could be her hair is curly in it for a reason. Taking ep 4 as a stand-alone, it works perfectly.

Or it could be a glitch on the animator's part. school-devilschool-devilschool-devil


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

Offline

 

#181 | Back to Top03-24-2007 03:30:35 PM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Giovanna wrote:

Edit: However, the sky in the actual planetarium Akio, Touga and Saionji are having a camera party in a scene later...doesn't move. The suggestion, I would imagine, being that the 'real' stars are in the planetarium with them. The state that Utena's in is part of the illusion; it's not really her, but rather the illusion of herself Akio's pushed on her. Of course, you could also read that as the illusion in the room being Anthy...

Hehe, for me it's the exact opposite. emot-tongue The stars that Utena and Anthy are looking are the real ones, just as they are real even if they've been put amidst the illusionary life and dreams. Oh, and the stargazing in this scene also makes me think how they are facing the reality, but yet not seeing it. They're both oblivious about it but still on their way to realisation. It's like they're staring at something that's right under their nose but they can't see it. The fact that the stars are moving is significant 'cause the real stars are doing the same (well, not precicely though since it's the Earth that is actually moving the most).
And as for the camera party, those stars there are fake, especially if you consider the way they are being created. They're just projected in the planetarium. And even if they were moving too, it doesn't change the fact that they're not real.

Also, I believe if it wasn't for Utena, the stars in their bedroom would have been motionless too. Anthy doesn't try to do anything to make a change on her own. Oh, oh! And I think there's the Dioscuri symbolim again. In the beginning of the scene both Utena and Anthy are standing at the opposite side of the window, but later on they end up together in the middle of the room. That's almost as if they were drawn to each other - kind of like stars and other celestial bodies affect each other through gravity (w00t, I remember something from my physics class school-eng101 ). However, the speed at which the stars are rotating is waaay unreal since you hardly notice any change in the night sky in reality. I think the high speed is a reference to how things are going to go from there on. By that point, the revolution is so close and all the following events are the katalysts for all the other things that are going to happen. There's no turing back anymore, both Utena and Anthy are drawn into the spiral of changes and they are the ones who have to deal with it the most.
There's also Touga and Saionji in the planetarium and they, too, will change in the end, but like I mentioned somewhere else (where - I can't remember), the revolution for Anthy and Utena is a bit different since it comes more abruptly for them and it requires an instant reaction, whereas Touga and Saionji and the rest of them can finish their lovely schoolyears in Ohtori before the go out in the world. And that they will.

There was something else about the stars, but now I forgot. emot-frown
Someday we shall have a thread about all the things that can be seen behind the window in Utena's and Anthy's bedroom. emot-dance


The Saionji Support Squad:
Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

Offline

 

#182 | Back to Top04-02-2007 07:00:47 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 962

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

An interesting observation; none of the duelists have roses in their pockets in the opening theme. They're all fighting, up in the arena and swinging their swords around, but no roses in sight if I remember correctly.


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

Offline

 

#183 | Back to Top05-18-2007 09:04:22 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Earlier in this thread, we were speculating about the meaning of the word Dios. It's Spanish for God but is also the Greek genitive of Zeus. You see it in the word Dioscuri, the Twins. Kouros = boy, therefore children of Zeus. Dyo is also the Greek word for two. In terms of Utena the idea of duality is at least as important as the idea of divinity.

I sure hope someone else didn't already note all this elsewhere already.

Offline

 

#184 | Back to Top05-18-2007 09:12:09 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

brian wrote:

Earlier in this thread, we were speculating about the meaning of the word Dios. It's Spanish for God but is also the Greek genitive of Zeus. You see it in the word Dioscuri, the Twins. Kouros = boy, therefore children of Zeus. Dyo is also the Greek word for two. In terms of Utena the idea of duality is at least as important as the idea of divinity.

I sure hope someone else didn't already note all this elsewhere already.

And, the concept of Duality would go back to the Student Council motto for the God Abraxas, who embodies all sorts of opposing concepts into one body. Just like Akio vs. Dios, or Akio vs. Anthy.

Offline

 

#185 | Back to Top05-24-2007 03:16:36 AM

Shy Kitsune
Saionji Slapper
From: South Wales
Registered: 05-24-2007
Posts: 20

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I've got two questions. The first one in the episode where we flashback in time and find out the truth about the black rose duleists, why is the blinking hand pointing at the black cat's that show up in the window when Mikage is talking to Mamiya's mom.

The second question is about the same episode, the same hand is pointing at a random student on the steps up to the hall, I've figured out what most of the things that are pointed at mean but these two stump me.

There was something else, but um, I forgot...poptart

EDIT: I remembered what the third thing that's been bugging me was, at the very end of the movie, why do the two shadow girls turn to straw dummies with Unena's and Anthy's names on their badges.emot-confused

Last edited by Shy Kitsune (05-24-2007 04:17:34 AM)

Offline

 

#186 | Back to Top05-24-2007 06:37:35 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

1 and 2:  The best I've come up with is that the pointers are some kind of Nemuro-vision to show us what he happens to be looking at...not sure about the cats at all, though, it seems like there should be something else.

3:  I'd say that the straw dummies represent the fake selves that Anthy and Utena have left behind, Anthy's rose bride self, and Utena's prince self?  I've no idea about any connection between them and the Shadow Girls, though.

Anybody else got any ideas?


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
Honorary Hat Mafia Member

Offline

 

#187 | Back to Top05-24-2007 10:48:16 AM

Suyo
Tenjou Tilter
From: Washington
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 82

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Wasn't Tokiko Mamiya's sister?


May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy it be granted Glory.

Offline

 

#188 | Back to Top05-24-2007 11:02:29 AM

Shy Kitsune
Saionji Slapper
From: South Wales
Registered: 05-24-2007
Posts: 20

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Stormcrow wrote:

1 and 2:  The best I've come up with is that the pointers are some kind of Nemuro-vision to show us what he happens to be looking at...not sure about the cats at all, though, it seems like there should be something else.

3:  I'd say that the straw dummies represent the fake selves that Anthy and Utena have left behind, Anthy's rose bride self, and Utena's prince self?  I've no idea about any connection between them and the Shadow Girls, though.

Anybody else got any ideas?

Dang that little growing family of cat's has been driving me nuts. emot-gonk

Good suggestion on the shadowgirls = strawdummies = Utena&Anthy front though. emot-keke

Suyo wrote:

Wasn't Tokiko Mamiya's sister?

Er, maybe, I didn't check emot-redface Okay now I feel silly.

Last edited by Shy Kitsune (05-24-2007 11:03:21 AM)

Offline

 

#189 | Back to Top05-24-2007 12:06:23 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

The family of cats was strangely humorous to me, in a way, because... if I remember, they eventually have a family of 3... maybe... implying the trio of Tokiko, Nemuro, and Mamiya?
In any case, those were some BUSY cats...
There was also a coffee cup with someone's (Tokiko's) lips imprinted on it. <-I guess it just goes to show the extent of obsessiveness Nemuro has for Tokiko?
They also do a pointer on two MALE students who were holding hands with each other.
If every finger pointer means something, then what does the gay couples imply?

Offline

 

#190 | Back to Top05-24-2007 12:34:59 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

The shadow girls could well be Utena and Anthy (and the third one from the anime is probably Chu-chu.). I fancy they are the older, wiser selves of Anthy and Utena reflecting back on their experiences. Or they could be their wiser sub-consious selves trying to warn them or explain to them what is happening. Or perhaps they are guiding spirits. The straw dummies are the shadow girls, quite literally dramatic "personae." The dummies cast the shadows, and in turn are animated by Utena and Anthy.

Stormcrow wrote:

3:  I'd say that the straw dummies represent the fake selves that Anthy and Utena have left behind, Anthy's rose bride self, and Utena's prince self?  I've no idea about any connection between them and the Shadow Girls, though.
Anybody else got any ideas?

Last edited by brian (05-24-2007 12:37:50 PM)

Offline

 

#191 | Back to Top05-24-2007 01:06:05 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Shy Kitsune wrote:

I've got two questions. The first one in the episode where we flashback in time and find out the truth about the black rose duleists, why is the blinking hand pointing at the black cat's that show up in the window when Mikage is talking to Mamiya's mom.

That's an essay about that.


I just about finished analyzing episode seven: Unfulfilled Juri, and then lost interest at the last minute and started focusing on a different project. I'm kind of disappointed. Now I need to find motivation to write about the damn thing.

Offline

 

#192 | Back to Top05-24-2007 03:16:09 PM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Razara wrote:

I just about finished analyzing episode seven: Unfulfilled Juri, and then lost interest at the last minute and started focusing on a different project. I'm kind of disappointed. Now I need to find motivation to write about the damn thing.

Oh, please do that!

I'll draw you Shiori. ;D


(And besides, Shiori seems fun to draw so I need an excuse to do that.)


The Saionji Support Squad:
Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

Offline

 

#193 | Back to Top05-24-2007 04:05:22 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Maarika wrote:

Oh, please do that!

I'll draw you Shiori. ;D


(And besides, Shiori seems fun to draw so I need an excuse to do that.)

It's a deal. emot-dance

(Yay! Motivation and Shiori fanart!) etc-love

Offline

 

#194 | Back to Top05-24-2007 07:20:38 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I think we need to find a way to shed light on Chigusa. I never had the opportunity to play the game itself, but I'm curious about ALL the duelists presented in the Utena Mythos... All I know about Chigusa is that she's supposed to resemble the witch who brings Snow White the poison apple. Since each color is supposed to represent something, what is Chigusa's color supposed to represent? Light green... does that make a difference with Saionji Green?

Offline

 

#195 | Back to Top05-24-2007 08:00:52 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Well, I always thought Chigusa's hair was a light cyan/turquoise, filling in the spot on the color spectrum between Miki and Saionji. It's basically the only "true color" not already represented in the series, but I suppose that can be discussed in the color thread I unintentionally hijacked many moons ago.

Last edited by Raven Nightshade (05-24-2007 08:05:52 PM)


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

Offline

 

#196 | Back to Top05-25-2007 06:55:15 AM

Shy Kitsune
Saionji Slapper
From: South Wales
Registered: 05-24-2007
Posts: 20

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Razara wrote:

That's an essay about that.

THANK YOU! etc-love Rushes off to the site and eats it.

Last edited by Shy Kitsune (05-25-2007 06:56:16 AM)

Offline

 

#197 | Back to Top05-26-2007 10:10:37 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Lilies:
Lilies in Japan means "juri", it's symbol of shojo and juri anime too emot-smile First mangas were marked this flower at its first page. Lillies are representing woman's world in this anime: even though all is about Akio, man, we can see only females feelings and fights.

Umbrellas:
I think that it's symbol of shield, protection. When Keiko is protecting Touga from rain Nanami feels replaced. At duel arena it has the same interpretation: now Anthy is protected by Utena (she holds red, royal umbrella).


Nanami's hair:
In Japan, it's not allowed to cut female's hair without her permission. Very often it's symbol of being raped or ashamed of smth. In the duel Utena-Nanami we can see that Nanami is humiliated.

Romanticide:
I really liked your interpretation od candle. Maybe flame can symbolise presence of Prince, maybe it's vestal fire? (From mythology, vestals were sacred virgins whose kept holy flame to burn still.) When she surrendered, candle fades.

Anthy on the cross:
we can see very similiar scene in Lady Oscar, and, as you know, Chico Saito was inspirated by Ryoko Ikeda.

Analysis about Ruka-Juri-Shiori triangle:
It's my favourite plot and I've spent much time for it. At first, I can't believe that Shiori loves Juri, I thought she's straight. She didn't choose Ruka, he picked her for his reason. He definitely loves Juri, and he wants her to forget about Shiori. He sacrified himself for her "freedom". (In next episodes Juri asks Utena about her picture; Juri's locket is broken what means that she HAS TO realse from her. She didn't want to fight without locket/Shiori, right? She lost her aim.)
Shiori isn't enough mature to love anyone- she's too concerned of yourself (she's afraid of being worse and being pathetic in relationship), she's also too proud to it (nor to confess her TRUE feelings, this pride unables her to let Ruka go).

*There was also a coffee cup with someone's (Tokiko's) lips imprinted on it. <-I guess it just goes to show the extent of obsessiveness Nemuro has for Tokiko?*
I'm not sure, but it seems that if you watch carefully dialogue between Akio and Mikage, you'll see lips print on the edge of Mikage's chemise. Maybe it's just my imagination, but i thought that Mikage and Tokiko have a romance (remember when she asked him: does geniuses fall in love?).

Mikage's madness:
does he lost his mind when Mamiya died?

I also wonder about 7th episode- every scene with nameless boy confuse me, mostly this: http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=memoryzf8.jpg
(I apologise for my mistakes, I'm from Poland and english isn't my first language.)

Offline

 

#198 | Back to Top05-26-2007 10:19:35 AM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

dlaire wrote:

Mikage's madness:
does he lost his mind when Mamiya died?

I'd like to think that, as I'm not much for Tokiko and Mikage/Nemuro, but I believe that Mamiya is, ultimately, not the reason. It's only when Nemuro sees how Tokiko and Mamiya live does he fully throw himself into finding eternity. However, after what can only be described as love-like feelings for Tokiko, he sees that she doesn't really feel that way for him (cue Akio.) I think that this is what really sets him off, but in the larger scheme, Mamiya roots back to this. He replaces Tokiko with Mamiya, and replaces his intellect and rationality with off-centered emotion and misplaced love. However, if we're talking about the manga, this would be a completely different story. etc-love Definitely a Mamiya-centric story there.

Last edited by dollface (06-09-2010 04:17:48 PM)


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

Offline

 

#199 | Back to Top05-26-2007 10:26:24 AM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

dlaire wrote:

Shiori isn't enough mature to love anyone- she's too concerned of yourself (she's afraid of being worse and being pathetic in relationship), she's also too proud to it (nor to confess her TRUE feelings, this pride unables her to let Ruka go).

Does maturity really play a part in whether or not you can love someone? I'm sure that most people are often afraid that they will be worse off and pathetic in the relationship, perhaps wondering if they are good enough for their lover. Not wanting to confess her feelings is also what Juri deals with, isn't it?

Offline

 

#200 | Back to Top05-26-2007 01:56:40 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Hi dlaire! I haven't put up those other polish scripts because I won't do it without permission, and I haven't got it yet. Sorry!

Anyway, I wanted to add my two cents to the maturity thing-- that's pretty much exactly the reason I don't see Shiori as being in love with Juri. It does take a certain amount of maturity to love someone, because if there isn't that maturity, it isn't something that can really be called love. I'm very picky about my definition of love, though. I've only even been willing to admit that Shiori has strong feelings about Juri, and possibly obsessive ones.


Hat Mafia Member: Ratchedface
Je vais mourir pour l ' a e s t h e t i q u e
Internet Atrocity Tourist             -           MY POSTS             ARE WARSHIPS

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB 1.2.23
© Copyright 2002–2008 PunBB
Forum styled and maintained by Giovanna and Yasha
Return to Empty Movement