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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#151 | Back to Top03-17-2007 04:28:36 AM

garesuka
New Student
Registered: 03-17-2007
Posts: 6

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I couldn't be bothered reading through this thread, so someone might of raised what I'm saying now Xp... but I think the Clay sculptures are Haniwa (Child-like appearance but were used as funerary objects for Military leaders, horses, etc... way back in the Kofun period 250-538)

I also think the Umbrella symbolists how Keiko kept her feelings for Touga sheltered. Sheltering herself from her desire and Nanami.

I'm pretty upset, I went to see the Utena Symbolism site and seems like it was discontinued. It was a really nice resource emot-frown

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#152 | Back to Top03-18-2007 04:36:17 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 960

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Ooh, good catch. I didn't even notice that wheel. emot-keke

*checks SKU's analysis section for Anthy and Saionji's birthdates*

Anthy is born at the end of February, so no. Saionji is born in August, so no. I think the only Scorpio might be Mikage. (His birthday is near mine, and I'm a Scorpio)

Perhaps it's in relation to the personality traits of Scorpio? Actually, they could both fit some of those traits a lot: Intense. Jealous. What else..? Emotional. Those are some of the more common Scorpio traits I remember.

I caught it during my rewatch. *proud*  emot-biggrin

And in the next shot of the, er, phallic symbol, the shadow falls between Scorpio and Libra.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/untitled-1.jpg


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#153 | Back to Top03-18-2007 05:11:30 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

YamPuff wrote:

I caught it during my rewatch. *proud*  emot-biggrin

And in the next shot of the, er, phallic symbol, the shadow falls between Scorpio and Libra.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/ … tled-1.jpg

...does anyone know what this dial actually is? i.e. does it exist in real life in any form? I mean, its form resembles a sundial to my mind, but it's using the constellations, which I assume makes it something that you would use to predict the movement of the constellations...and as you guys are saying, different signs in different sectors imply different emotions and states of mind. I'm just bloody curious about whether or not it's a genuine astrology/astronomy tool or not now, because if you need the night sky to view it then it's going to be the wackiest thing ever given you'd need the moonlight to cast the shadow and the moon is about as fickle as anything. How does Juliet put it? "O, swear not by the moon, the inconstant moon/That monthly changes in her circled orb/Lest that thy love prove likewise variable."

...hmm. That was a random thought process on my part, actually, but it seems to fit rather nicely with Saionji's declaration to Anthy, or even vice-versa...considering the fact that Anthy is like the moon, changing depending on who she orbits. Dammit, that's it, my brain hurts, I'm not thinking about this anymore...although I would still like to know if anyone knows WHAT that wheel is actually supposed to be doing. school-eng101


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#154 | Back to Top03-18-2007 06:17:57 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 960

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Clarice wrote:

...although I would still like to know if anyone knows WHAT that wheel is actually supposed to be doing. school-eng101

Its for messin wit you miiind. cool

Last edited by YamPuff (03-18-2007 06:18:41 AM)


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#155 | Back to Top03-18-2007 06:39:55 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

YamPuff wrote:

Clarice wrote:

...although I would still like to know if anyone knows WHAT that wheel is actually supposed to be doing. school-eng101

Its for messin wit you miiind. cool

...I thought that was Akio's...erm..."projector" in his "tower." Or maybe that's not for my mind...


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#156 | Back to Top03-18-2007 06:47:56 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 960

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Clarice wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

Clarice wrote:

...although I would still like to know if anyone knows WHAT that wheel is actually supposed to be doing. school-eng101

Its for messin wit you miiind. cool

...I thought that was Akio's...erm..."projector" in his "tower." Or maybe that's not for my mind...

rofl emot-biggrin

Maybe its an indirect way of comparing between the sizes of Saoinji's and Akio's you-know-whatsits. Look at Saionji's weeee little tower and Akio's huuuuge one. emot-smileemot-smileemot-smile

Last edited by YamPuff (03-18-2007 06:51:31 AM)


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#157 | Back to Top03-18-2007 12:16:40 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Well, Libra is more of a love sign, as opposed to Scorpio the sex sign.  Libra is ruled by Venus, while Scorpio is ruled by Pluto, but formerly ruled by Mars in the old six planet system. Also, Scorpio is seen as a symbol of mystery and magic, which is how modern astrologers assigned Pluto to it. Libra however is very light and, to hijack Clarice's wording, fickle, much like love.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#158 | Back to Top03-18-2007 01:35:57 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Well, Libra is more of a love sign, as opposed to Scorpio the sex sign.  Libra is ruled by Venus, while Scorpio is ruled by Pluto, but formerly ruled by Mars in the old six planet system. Also, Scorpio is seen as a symbol of mystery and magic, which is how modern astrologers assigned Pluto to it. Libra however is very light and, to hijack Clarice's wording, fickle, much like love.

I thought Venus rules Pisces.

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#159 | Back to Top03-18-2007 01:56:56 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Clarice wrote:

...does anyone know what this dial actually is? i.e. does it exist in real life in any form?

No, it's just a symbol or metaphor for us viewers, not something that could exist in real life and work in that fashion.

Last edited by brian (03-18-2007 01:57:34 PM)

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#160 | Back to Top03-18-2007 06:07:41 PM

Nilamarthiel
The Icon Icon
From: Northern Michigan
Registered: 02-05-2007
Posts: 3972
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

brian wrote:

Clarice wrote:

...does anyone know what this dial actually is? i.e. does it exist in real life in any form?

No, it's just a symbol or metaphor for us viewers, not something that could exist in real life and work in that fashion.

There's something with similar whatsits in the manga, which marked the transitions between duels. Maybe that's a nod to that? It has the astrological signs on there like the chart in the manga does.

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#161 | Back to Top03-18-2007 06:25:42 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Hiraku wrote:

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Well, Libra is more of a love sign, as opposed to Scorpio the sex sign.  Libra is ruled by Venus, while Scorpio is ruled by Pluto, but formerly ruled by Mars in the old six planet system. Also, Scorpio is seen as a symbol of mystery and magic, which is how modern astrologers assigned Pluto to it. Libra however is very light and, to hijack Clarice's wording, fickle, much like love.

I thought Venus rules Pisces.

Nope, that's Neptune, Jupiter in the old system.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#162 | Back to Top03-18-2007 06:27:53 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Yeah, in the manga Touga had a clock that predicted when duels happened. That element is fantastic but it is possible to make a clock that points out the signs of the zodiac throughout the year.

I was just skimming Razara's earlier posting about Shiori. Shiori is rejected as Ruka's Rose Bride and a moment later he is savagely rejecting her in public. Metaphorically both things may have happened at about the same time. Ruka lost the duel and just an instant later they are having that awful scene in front of the whole school. What they experienced as a duel is seen by the rest of the school as something different. Perhaps all the duels are like that, "just" turning points happening within relationships

Don't know if this was noticed by anyone before, but Miki seems to use his stopwatch as a divination tool. For example he consults his watch to conclude that he was responsible for the exploding curry incident. Using a stopwatch as a crystal ball is absurd but in a sense modern politician consult pollsters and economists and scientists the way kings used to consult astrologers.

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#163 | Back to Top03-18-2007 06:39:44 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

brian wrote:

Don't know if this was noticed by anyone before, but Miki seems to use his stopwatch as a divination tool. For example he consults his watch to conclude that he was responsible for the exploding curry incident. Using a stopwatch as a crystal ball is absurd but in a sense modern politician consult pollsters and economists and scientists the way kings used to consult astrologers.

Wow, maybe THAT'S what Ikuhara was saying when he said that Miki's stopwatch holds the secret to the universe.

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#164 | Back to Top03-20-2007 01:31:35 PM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 960

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Now for more YamPuff noticing irrelevant things!! school-eng101school-eng101school-eng101school-sherlockschool-sherlock

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/Kozue.jpg

When Miki flashbacks about himself and his sister, Kozua has pretty curly hair, a fancy dress and a big bow. However, when Kozue flashbacks, her hairstyle is exactly the same as her current self, and no bow in sight.

How perfectly fitting is that? Brilliant. etc-loveetc-love


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#165 | Back to Top03-22-2007 05:12:36 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

That bow is interesting.

Anyway I've got a question. I rarely pay attention to Chu-chu but in Episode 15 Saioinji has just seen the world, he marches into the bird cage, hits Miki, grabs Anthy and challenges Utena. Just before that Chu-chu is getting buggered by a frog. Saionji grabs them both and hurls them away. Obviously the frog is a fake prince but I don't understand the rest of the symbolism.

Last edited by brian (03-22-2007 05:13:34 PM)

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#166 | Back to Top03-22-2007 05:24:48 PM

Fayli
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 03-19-2007
Posts: 25

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

YamPuff wrote:

Now for more YamPuff noticing irrelevant things!! school-eng101school-eng101school-eng101school-sherlockschool-sherlock

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/ … /Kozue.jpg

When Miki flashbacks about himself and his sister, Kozua has pretty curly hair, a fancy dress and a big bow. However, when Kozue flashbacks, her hairstyle is exactly the same as her current self, and no bow in sight.

How perfectly fitting is that? Brilliant. etc-loveetc-love

I think that's because Miki remembers those days fondly, more or less idolizing Kozua. Where as Kozua only associates the pain of Miki letting her down. When Miki flashbacks, Kozua is different from how she is now, as he remembers her differently than the Kozua she is in the present. Kozua sees herself as being still dependent on Miki and therefore she looks the same in the past and present as she can't move on.

I think that made sense emot-danceemot-rolleyesemot-dance

Last edited by Fayli (03-23-2007 04:11:02 AM)

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#167 | Back to Top03-22-2007 08:49:43 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Fayli wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

Now for more YamPuff noticing irrelevant things!! school-eng101school-eng101school-eng101school-sherlockschool-sherlock

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/ … /Kozue.jpg

When Miki flashbacks about himself and his sister, Kozua has pretty curly hair, a fancy dress and a big bow. However, when Kozue flashbacks, her hairstyle is exactly the same as her current self, and no bow in sight.

How perfectly fitting is that? Brilliant. etc-loveetc-love

I think that's because Miki remembers those days fondly, more or less idolizing Kozua. Where as Kozua only associates the pain of Miki letting her down. When Miki flashbacks, Kozua is different from how she is now, as he remembers her differently than the Kozua she is in the present. Kozua sees herself as being still dependent on Miki and therefore she looks the same in the past and present as she can't move on.

I think that maid sense emot-danceemot-rolleyesemot-dance

Oh wow, I didn't realize that the hair was different.
Oh maybe this just shows that Miki's deluding himself by "manipulating" his memories as he's looking through a pair of rosy-colored glasses.
When I looked at that pic YamPuff posted (Thank you emot-smile ) I also noticed that the Kozue in Miki's flashback has curly hair, so maybe it has something to do with his visions of Anthy, too. Kinda like how he pictured his new stepmom to be like Anthy.

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#168 | Back to Top03-23-2007 04:14:05 AM

Fayli
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 03-19-2007
Posts: 25

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Yeah that does make sense. But i would of thought that if he was thinking that she was like Anthy that her hair would of been exactly the same, which it isn't.

Plus Kozua probably wouldn't of had the same hair cut when she was a child. That's why i think it's smbolic of what they remember.

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#169 | Back to Top03-23-2007 05:04:47 AM

relmneiko
New Student
Registered: 03-22-2007
Posts: 1

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I can't believe I read all through this topic in one night. Does anyone have a life I could borrow?

ANYWAY.

Something I noted a while back, not sure if it's technically symbolism but what the heck...

In the episode 'Her Tragedy' there's a bit of a repeating theme of a deadpan joke.

The first time we hear it is with Touga:

Nanami:  Where're you going?
Touga:  The shower. Wanna come with me?
*pause*
Touga:  Just kidding.

And again:

Touga:  You...don't seem to have any fever.
Nanami:  Cut it out. I'm not a child.
Touga:  Sorry about that. Then, a kiss goodnight? (Nanami turns a brilliant shade of red)
*pause*
Touga:  Just kidding.

Later on we hear it from Akio:

Akio:  That's fine. Making sure that each an every student has a pleasant time at the Academy is my job.
Nanami:  Aren't you going to ask what happened?
Akio:  My real dream is turning the Chairman's Wing into a harem.
*pause*
Nanami:  Huh?
Akio:  Just kidding.

And almost immediately after we hear it from Anthy:

Utena:  Is Akio-san trying to found a harem or something? Taking Nanami in and all...
Anthy:  Well, my brother draws no distinction between women.
*pause* (Utena remembers her kiss in Akio's car)
Utena:  Is that true?
Anthy:  I'm joking.

This little running joke is in fact, IMHO, displaying the chain of command. When Touga uses the joke he is heavy-handed and laden with sexual innuendo, and he uses it twice. When Akio uses the joke he is lighter and more subtle. Finally, when Anthy makes the joke, she doesn't even initiate the gag, she just says the punchline - and her words are so true that even the naive Utena believes her for a moment.

I think the joke is one of the best illustrators of Anthy's skill in subtlety, and how everything in the show doesn't come back to just Akio's plots, it comes back to hers. Despite Akio's overt displays of power, she's the one really in control... I think. Which is really an essay in itself.

Oh, and first post. Yayz. emot-biggrin

[edit] Also, I believe there are a few roses spinning in corners during the times that the deadpan jokes are told, as well as the image of a toad eating a fly and the sound of a ribbit when Nanami hears the joke from Touga. Does anyone have screencaps?

Last edited by relmneiko (03-23-2007 05:07:16 AM)


I climbed the ladder of evolution, and saw the leaning tower of culture that humans have struggled to construct. It's not even a tower, really, it's a scaffold of rotting wood, built with meager knowledge and pitiful tools.

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#170 | Back to Top03-23-2007 07:16:50 AM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

YamPuff wrote:

Now for more YamPuff noticing irrelevant things!! school-eng101school-eng101school-eng101school-sherlockschool-sherlock

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/ … /Kozue.jpg

When Miki flashbacks about himself and his sister, Kozua has pretty curly hair, a fancy dress and a big bow. However, when Kozue flashbacks, her hairstyle is exactly the same as her current self, and no bow in sight.

How perfectly fitting is that? Brilliant. etc-loveetc-love

As great an observation as this is, if you'll watch episode 15, you'll see that Kozue's flashback is the one with the curly hair and bow.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#171 | Back to Top03-23-2007 07:25:54 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

@ relmneiko: I've noticed those jokes too but I couldn't make anything more meaningful out of them. But I think they also show how naive both Nanami and Utena really are. Of course, Nanami's the one to get over it soon after that but I think they're both (especially Utena) quite gullible characters anyway.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Last edited by Maarika (03-23-2007 07:26:47 AM)


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#172 | Back to Top03-23-2007 07:44:37 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

dollface wrote:

As great an observation as this is, if you'll watch episode 15, you'll see that Kozue's flashback is the one with the curly hair and bow.

I just checked, and... no.

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#173 | Back to Top03-23-2007 09:49:24 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Hina, that is pretty rude. Also, It should be fairly easy to tell whose flashback it is-- perhaps you could explain why you think this is not Kozue's flashback?


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#174 | Back to Top03-23-2007 10:27:16 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Sorry if you found that offending, I didn't think that saying "no" would be rude. I opened Miki's episode in the first arc and checked the flashback and Kozue had curly hair, while Dollface said she had her normal hair then. Maybe Kozue had curly hair in her flashback, too, I didn't check - but she had it in Miki's flashback.

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#175 | Back to Top03-23-2007 10:48:02 AM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I see. I'm sorry, I did the opposite of you. I know episode 15 like the back of my hand, and I knew her hair was curly in it. I suppose since there was a screencap with her normal hair, I just assumed that Miki must have had that flashback. To be fair though, I said 'if you'll check episode 15', not 'if you'll check [insert another Miki/Kozue centric episode]'. But I understand what you did. I should have checked first.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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