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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#126 | Back to Top03-07-2007 07:24:31 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I'm just glad that my views on that episode weren't automatically dismissed as inaccurate.

As for interpreting episode 25, I'm planning on rewatching some of SKU tomorrow so I can analyze it, so I'll give that episode a look. That episode has always trigged my curiosity, because it sets a new stage in the duels, and the story itself.

brian wrote:

Possibly he is also referring to Juri.

Actually, I wondered the same thing myself once. The only reason why is because the way that he was walking away made me think of when he walked away from her after she told him to keep her hands off Shiori. "Why?" "Shiori is... An old friend of mine." (Liar, liar.)

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#127 | Back to Top03-07-2007 09:15:31 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

brian wrote:

Brian's awesome quickie analysis of Ep 25

Thanks, Brian, those are all of the vibes I get from Ep. 25 too. It's hard to prove all that with hard evidence but I think the viewer feels it: the tension between Anthy and Akio, the solidifying of Anthy and Utena's relationship, we know there's something different about Saionji this time even though the scenario is similar to before, etc. And let's face it, the show gets a whole lot sexier with that episode in some part to the new elevator sequence and the closing credits and in huge part to our favorite evil-doer, Akio.

Brian wrote:

Anyway Razara's observation of Shiori's left eye is really impressive. school-eng101school-sherlock

Seconded. Awesome job!

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#128 | Back to Top03-08-2007 11:37:47 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

This just got into my head, and I need to let it out.
Has it been discussed about why each character has certain hair color?
If so, then I think it'd make sense that why our new prince, Utena, has pink hair.
Saionji's green, in my opinion, can either mean envy, or that desire of his for "eternity" (green is also referred to as all that is living and good)
Touga's red could represent passion, and Miki's represent angelic purity (blue is the color of heaven)

Just a train of thought

Last edited by Hiraku (03-08-2007 11:38:19 AM)

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#129 | Back to Top03-08-2007 01:39:32 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Hiraku wrote:

This just got into my head, and I need to let it out.
Has it been discussed about why each character has certain hair color?
If so, then I think it'd make sense that why our new prince, Utena, has pink hair.
Saionji's green, in my opinion, can either mean envy, or that desire of his for "eternity" (green is also referred to as all that is living and good)
Touga's red could represent passion, and Miki's represent angelic purity (blue is the color of heaven)

Just a train of thought

Actually, I was thinking of making a thread about the colour schemes of the characters and what they mean and what different pairs of characters' hair colours mean together. I might have to make that one now. emot-keke


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

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#130 | Back to Top03-08-2007 02:58:10 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

No pictures this time. I got lazy. But I’ll be analyzing the super-fun symbolism in episode 27, Nanami’s Egg. :3


At the start of the episode, Nanami wakes up and realizes that she’s laid an egg. Though you probably wouldn’t expect it, this isn’t a completely random moment that happened just for the hell of it. All girls lay eggs. Nanami just got her first period. It’s very apparent that Nanami’s parents never told her about any of this, resulting in her panic and confusion through all of this. (My grandmother went through the same thing.)

As Mitsuru is reading Nanami’s schedule, he mentions that she will be having a, “girls-only health and hygiene class.” All the while, Nanami is still panicking because she laid an egg. She starts to imagine how the other girls might react, calling her a space alien. Little does Nanami know that laying an egg does not make her some sort of alien, though she continues to imagine that Mitsuru will condemn her for it as well. She tells Utena that, a “boy-girl” like her could never understand.

Later, after she finds out from Miki that girls can lay eggs, she wonders if she was the only one who didn’t know this, and that perhaps she was really late compared to most girls. She imagines Keiko, Aiko, and Yuuko making fun of her and calling her a baby, which is another thing that girls tend to worry about during this time.

Nanami is running along when she bumps into Juri. “Nanami! Be careful! You almost scratched my ball!” Nanami mistakes Juri’s ball for an egg. (Incase you haven’t already figured this out, “ball” in Japanese is “tama,” and “egg,” is “tamago,” so they both sound pretty similar.) When Nanami holds it, she comments on how big it is. “Well, I used to have smaller ones, but that’s the size I get now.” This refers to breast sizes. “I think it just feels good.” Even the first time I watched this, the first thing that popped into my mind was, “masturbation.” Nanami falls to the ground and thinks, “Juri really is mature!” And then, one of my favorite scenes in SKU, Juri bowls a strike at the bowling alley. She sparkles as a huge crowd of fans cheer for her. She certainly is very confident in her appearance.

Now Nanami is embracing the fact that one day she’ll become a mother. (You’ve gotta love that egg song.) The next day, Mitsuru confronts her.
Mitsuru: “Nanami-san, if you ever have a problem, please tell me. I’ll do anything for you!”
Nanami: “Oh? ANYthing? Oh, I see! So, if I ask you to run at 300 kilometers an hour, you’d do it?! If I told you to fly at match 5, you’d do it?! If I told you to dive ten thousand meters below the ocean, you’d do that too?!”
Mitsuru: “Well… That might be…” 
Nanami: “Impossible! Impossible! Absolutely impossible for you! So don’t make promises you can’t keep!”
PMS, much?

Mitsuru tells Utena and Anthy about Nanami’s strange and short-tempered behavior as of lately, and Anthy suggests that it is as though she has just laid an egg. “My pet hen Nanami got like that right after she laid an egg.” The way chickens lay eggs is actually a lot like their period. Someone even told me that once when I was younger. And if you’re looking for a non-symbolic reason for how on Earth Nanami could have possibly laid an egg, I’ll point you in Anthy’s direction.

Touga: “Nanami. You’re in a very good mood this morning.”
Nanami: “It’s because I’m working so hard! I’m working hard for our glorious future, Onii-sama!”
Touga: “For our future?”
Nanami: “Tell me, Onii-sama… which do you prefer? A boy or a girl?”
Touga: “That’s an obvious answer. Girls, of course.”
Nanami: “Oh, good! So do I.” (*Giggles*)
Touga: “Nanami, you… You like girls more than boys?”
Nanami: “Yes.”
Touga: “Listen, Nanami, God created men and women for a reason. That reason being because they join together in the best sort of way. No matter how good something may feel, going against God’s plan is…” (Says the man who is sleeping with the Chairman.)
Nanami: “Onii-sama, what in the world are you talking about?! You know you’re the only one I love!
Touga: “But you just said you preferred girls.”
Nanami: “That’s not what I meant!”
Basically, confusion about her sexuality. Her hands actually shake a bit as she says, “That’s not what I meant!”

Touga: “Then what?”
Nanami: “Look… What would you think of a girl who lays eggs?”
Touga: “Nanami… Why do you think we’ve been able to live so happily together? It’s because you’re a girl who doesn’t lay eggs. I pity the family of a girl who would betray them like that.”
They’re able to live happily together because Nanami isn’t the type to sleep around with boys, or Touga, for that matter.

Nanami’s three stalkers stir eggs in the background and Nanami thinks, “Juri and Keiko and the others lay eggs, so why am I the only one getting grief for it?! That’s right! What do THEY go when they lay eggs?! They wouldn’t!” She looks over in disgust in horror at the three guys stirring the eggs. The way they stir looks an awful lot like this etc-wankdude emoticon. She’s just answered the question, “Where do babies come from?” for herself.

I don’t have much of an interpretation for the Shadow Girls in this episode.

Nanami decides to give up her egg, and abandons it in the woods. Later that night, she changes her mind, and goes back to find it again. She stumbles across Saionji, who she thinks has eaten her egg. She beats him up for it until she realizes that he didn’t really eat her egg, and takes it back from him. (Honestly, I’m not sure what to make of this.)

Later, Nanami finds her egg fully grown to an enormous size. “Forgive me! I promise I’ll never abandon you again! I won’t abandon you!” After seemingly abandoning her egg again, it hatches from its shell as a monster, and leaves her to cause destruction throughout the world. In the end, isn’t that every parent’s story? They raise their children with all the love in the world, but one day they leave forever to cause destruction to the world, just as almost every other human does. But parents have to let go of their children eventually when they’re old enough.

Utena asks Anthy where “he,” has been, and she tells her that he should be home soon. Utena answers the door, and finds that Chu-Chu has returned home. We can assume that Chu-Chu is the father. (Thank you, Anthy.)


Who says that symbolism can’t be fun? emot-biggrin

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#131 | Back to Top03-08-2007 05:12:18 PM

Hysterical Woman
Touga Topper
From: Maryland
Registered: 03-02-2007
Posts: 50
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

When I saw that, I thought of balls as testicles. Damn, I knew Juri was butch...emot-aaa


"So you should crossdress and help people.” And she did.

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#132 | Back to Top03-08-2007 05:26:17 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

That episode is so amusing. emot-biggrin I had basically the same thoughts, that it was about Nanami facing aspects of her sexuality and womanhood. Although, I didn't think of Chuchu as the father.. (That's kind of disturbing emot-gonk ) I heard a theory once that Anthy got Chuchu to disguise as an egg to teach Nanami a lesson, so I kind of figured it might be that.. Hmmm.

Touga kills me in this episode. emot-biggrin


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

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#133 | Back to Top03-08-2007 05:41:15 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Actually, that didn't come out right. I don't think that Chu-Chu is literally the father, I just saw it as an, "Oh, God, Anthy's up to something again," moment.

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#134 | Back to Top03-08-2007 05:51:14 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Whenever I see Anthy happy about something, something ain't right.
Hm... I think your interpretation might have answered Ikuhara's claim of the "horrible reason why humans are on earth".
On the other hand, I'd never thought of the egg stirring thing as etc-wankdude If it's really implying etc-wankdude
Why on earth did they drink up the egg? Doesn't that mean that...

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#135 | Back to Top03-08-2007 05:54:06 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Ah, okay. emot-tongue

Hm.. doesn't the guys stirring the eggs symbolize the male's part in making babies?


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

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#136 | Back to Top03-08-2007 06:39:16 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Ah, okay. emot-tongue

Hm.. doesn't the guys stirring the eggs symbolize the male's part in making babies?

Yeah, but why drinking it down?

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#137 | Back to Top03-08-2007 06:49:30 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Hm.. that is a good question. emot-confused

Perhaps it was just Nanami being disgusted with what the boys were doing to the poor eggs. emot-gonk


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

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#138 | Back to Top03-08-2007 08:28:17 PM

Mai_Kanzaki
Ohtori Paramouri
From: Left of Nowhere, Ohio
Registered: 02-18-2007
Posts: 93
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Heh I thought the egg WAS Chu-chu. Being reborn that is. Do you see what that thing tries to eat? I'm surpised he doesn't die more often.


emot-gonk THINK MUN-KEY!

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#139 | Back to Top03-08-2007 08:29:32 PM

Hysterical Woman
Touga Topper
From: Maryland
Registered: 03-02-2007
Posts: 50
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I just thought of something about Nanami's outbreak at Tsuwabaki. She's right. Saying "I would do anything for you" is wrong, because you can't do everything. A big theme in this series is how you can't always save people, and I think that ties into it. Interesting how wise Nanami can be sometimes.


"So you should crossdress and help people.” And she did.

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#140 | Back to Top03-08-2007 09:39:53 PM

Suyo
Tenjou Tilter
From: Washington
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 82

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Episode 7.. Juri's duel emot-biggrin

Utena and Juri are talking about the Rose Bride and why they want to obtain her.
At one point, Juri says "It is stupid to try to obtain the Rose Bride" and it goes to a shot of Shiori D=

I'm pretty sure Razara mentioned Shiori and Anthy being the same (to some extent) in her interpretation of episode 17 (Thorns of Death)

I found this neat emot-biggrin
BecauseI cought on to something.

(i'm not as smart as you people. I could never write an essay t.t)


I love you all emot-biggrin


May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy it be granted Glory.

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#141 | Back to Top03-09-2007 11:38:25 AM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Razara wrote:

“Well, I used to have smaller ones, but that’s the size I get now.” This refers to breast sizes. “I think it just feels good.” Even the first time I watched this, the first thing that popped into my mind was, “masturbation.”

I had assumed that it referred to the "pleasure" of giving birth.

This may be over-obvious but bowling balls vary in weight. Beginners have lighter ones.

Is it possible that this episode also refers to abortion? It seems unlikely considering how uncontroversial it is in Japan. In any case Nanami is treating the egg far differently than she did the kitten. The comedy lies in how silly and immature she is, the drama in that she is becoming wiser, more compassionate and mature.

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#142 | Back to Top03-14-2007 11:37:50 AM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Episode 25 (the Saoinji duel) has been getting a lot of attention lately in other threads but there is a bit of symbolism that no one has picked up AFAIK. Utena is alone in bed while wondering where Anthy is. Outside her window the planet Saturn is looming. It's likely to have astrological symbolism since Saturn represents limits, setbacks, defeats, and reality intruding on illusions. It can also mean honest self-assessment and preparation for new endeavours. If it looms for Anthy it could symbolize the reality of her situation pressing down on her and the need to make a change. For Utena perhaps the realization that she needs to be less reliant on her Prince, since she has just learned to fight with her own sword rather than someone else's.

In an earlier episode, her defeat at the hands of Touga is interesting. At first he taunts her amateurishness and waits for the "Dios rush." Then he goes in for the kill. That does not make sense at first. But in fact Utena slows down and can barely lift her sword. The spirit of nobility has weakened her, perhaps because she feels that victory should rightfully go to the true prince. Her own idealism thwarts her.

It's hard to say but it also looks like that before the duel Anthy is making some extra effort to encourage Utena, holding her hand for example. They may be small signals that Anthy would prefer Utena to win.

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#143 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:26:49 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

brian wrote:

Is it possible that this episode also refers to abortion? It seems unlikely considering how uncontroversial it is in Japan. In any case Nanami is treating the egg far differently than she did the kitten. The comedy lies in how silly and immature she is, the drama in that she is becoming wiser, more compassionate and mature.

I think it's probably unlikely to be referring to abortion in anyway other than perhaps obliquely. I personally thought the joke of the episode was that Nanami, who had no maternal feelings for anything, got her period and then wanted to love and raise something for its own sake...only to find that as soon as it came of age (i.e. "hatched" in the whole manner of "breaking the world's shell" thing we have going on here) it abandoned her. It makes me wonder if this is perhaps an indication of Nanami's later maturity and where it came from, as this is the revolution of adolescence (which the cast is going through) seen from the adult perspective. As someone else said above, these parents have raised their children only to have them break free and leave them behind. In the case of some that's probably a good thing, but if it's a commentary on any social issue it's about the fact that parents can't cage their children or keep them wrapped in cotton wool forever. They're their own person. And in order to learn this about herself, Nanami had to learn it about her "egg."

Or maybe this episode just screwed with my head for kicks. There's always that, too. emot-gonk


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#144 | Back to Top03-14-2007 07:19:37 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

brian wrote:

Episode 25 (the Saoinji duel) has been getting a lot of attention lately in other threads but there is a bit of symbolism that no one has picked up AFAIK. Utena is alone in bed while wondering where Anthy is. Outside her window the planet Saturn is looming. It's likely to have astrological symbolism since Saturn represents limits, setbacks, defeats, and reality intruding on illusions. It can also mean honest self-assessment and preparation for new endeavours. If it looms for Anthy it could symbolize the reality of her situation pressing down on her and the need to make a change. For Utena perhaps the realization that she needs to be less reliant on her Prince, since she has just learned to fight with her own sword rather than someone else's.

It's also worth noting that Utena is a Capricorn, which is ruled by Saturn. Also, Saturn, as god of the harvest could symbolize the old saying, "You reap what you sow."


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#145 | Back to Top03-14-2007 08:03:28 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Raven Nightshade wrote:

brian wrote:

Episode 25 (the Saoinji duel) has been getting a lot of attention lately in other threads but there is a bit of symbolism that no one has picked up AFAIK. Utena is alone in bed while wondering where Anthy is. Outside her window the planet Saturn is looming. It's likely to have astrological symbolism since Saturn represents limits, setbacks, defeats, and reality intruding on illusions. It can also mean honest self-assessment and preparation for new endeavours. If it looms for Anthy it could symbolize the reality of her situation pressing down on her and the need to make a change. For Utena perhaps the realization that she needs to be less reliant on her Prince, since she has just learned to fight with her own sword rather than someone else's.

It's also worth noting that Utena is a Capricorn, which is ruled by Saturn. Also, Saturn, as god of the harvest could symbolize the old saying, "You reap what you sow."

I didn't realize that!
But um, they showed the giant windoe scene twice in that episode. Does the first scene have any significance? Or was it just a clear sky with random stars for show?

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#146 | Back to Top03-16-2007 12:59:20 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

The Language of Flower is frustrating and contradictory. Yellow Roses in one book mean fading love or jealousy or Platonic love and somewhere else a desire for reconciliation. Different cultures have different languages, the Persians had one, the Arabs had one but I'm not sure if was different from the Persian, the Victorians had one, and the Japanese have one called hanakotoba.

I am confused about hot link rules so I split the link in half.
http://www.tokyopop.com/
501.html?page=5

Their comment about cactus flowers = lust ought to perk up a couple of ears.

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#147 | Back to Top03-16-2007 02:59:18 PM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 960

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/untitled.jpg

The shadow falls on Scorpio. Is one of those two a Scorpio?


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#148 | Back to Top03-16-2007 03:10:19 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Ooh, good catch. I didn't even notice that wheel. emot-keke

*checks SKU's analysis section for Anthy and Saionji's birthdates*

Anthy is born at the end of February, so no. Saionji is born in August, so no. I think the only Scorpio might be Mikage. (His birthday is near mine, and I'm a Scorpio)

Perhaps it's in relation to the personality traits of Scorpio? Actually, they could both fit some of those traits a lot: Intense. Jealous. What else..? Emotional. Those are some of the more common Scorpio traits I remember.


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

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#149 | Back to Top03-16-2007 03:41:26 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Ooh, good catch. I didn't even notice that wheel. emot-keke

*checks SKU's analysis section for Anthy and Saionji's birthdates*

Anthy is born at the end of February, so no. Saionji is born in August, so no. I think the only Scorpio might be Mikage. (His birthday is near mine, and I'm a Scorpio)

Perhaps it's in relation to the personality traits of Scorpio? Actually, they could both fit some of those traits a lot: Intense. Jealous. What else..? Emotional. Those are some of the more common Scorpio traits I remember.

Here's the fast and dirty version. Scorpios are: Determined, persuasive, emotional, intuitive, passionate, exciting, magnetic, jealous, resentful, compulsive, obsessive, secretive, and obstinate. They don't like not being fully informed, being taken advantage of, demeaning jobs, shallow relationships, and brown-nosing. They do like honesty, hidden causes, being involved, meaningful work, and being persuasive.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#150 | Back to Top03-16-2007 11:02:23 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Here's the fast and dirty version. Scorpios are: Determined, persuasive, emotional, intuitive, passionate, exciting, magnetic, jealous, resentful, compulsive, obsessive, secretive, and obstinate. They don't like not being fully informed, being taken advantage of, demeaning jobs, shallow relationships, and brown-nosing. They do like honesty, hidden causes, being involved, meaningful work, and being persuasive.

The one that I always get (being a scorpio myself) is that they're extremely sexual creatures -but both ways. Either intensely sexual, or intensely celibate. Which apply to both Anthy and Saionji, respectively.


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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