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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#501 | Back to Top06-25-2008 09:25:35 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

hayama wrote:

OnlyInThisLight , I really enjoyed reading your intepretation of the first episode of Nanami's Apocalypse duel! Have you looked at the second episode at all yet? It's probably one of my favorites of the show. I'd really love to see what you have to say about the duel itself, as Nanami's motives for dueling Utena seem to go so far beyond what they appear to be on the surface.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.................I still have to finish up the second part of my analysis for the first episode.  I know exactly what I wanna say, it's just a matter of typing it up.


Give me about 2 more weeks to procrastinate, and then I'll see what I can do.


emot-mad  And I have to resize screencaps for Romance of the Dancing Girls, which is a bitch.

Srsly, how on earth did Gio do all the episodes for the gallery without a pheonix down? HOW I SAY!

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#502 | Back to Top06-25-2008 09:47:35 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Srsly, how on earth did Gio do all the episodes for the gallery without a pheonix down? HOW I SAY!

Easy. Yasha, Megalixirs, Life3 and a Ribbon. emot-keke


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#503 | Back to Top06-25-2008 10:22:29 PM

RoseFire
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From: OK
Registered: 06-19-2008
Posts: 302
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

lol the way you threw Yasha in there it made it sound like she actually used Yasha XD

What properties does a Yasha have if you use it? emot-tongue


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#504 | Back to Top06-25-2008 11:08:21 PM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

RoseFire wrote:

What properties does a Yasha have if you use it? emot-tongue

Extra action every round, I think. Two extra actions if targetting Touga. emot-wink

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#505 | Back to Top06-26-2008 08:31:18 AM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

OnionPrince wrote:

RoseFire wrote:

What properties does a Yasha have if you use it? emot-tongue

Extra action every round, I think. Two extra actions if targetting Touga. emot-wink

I was thinking something along those lines. Wasn't exactly sure how to phrase it.

YOU WIN!

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#506 | Back to Top07-08-2008 10:19:26 AM

Prince_of_Stars
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From: The Hellsing Organization
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Posts: 4165
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I noticed something about the way that Utena arrives to her duels, and the interaction with Anthy during them. I'm not as gifted with words, nor am I really good at getting my point across, but this has been weighing heavily on my mind, so I will attempt to explain.

In the beginning of the series, we notice that in order to get to her duels, Utena must climb billions of stairs to get to the dueling arena, and Anthy is already there. Anthy has already changed her uniform through what I assume is magic, and waits for Utena to arrive. The two also have little verbal contact with each other during these duels until later. Later in the series, we see that Anthy waits for Utena before disappearing, only to reappear to change her uniform in a more, I guess, personal fashion, actually touching her to change the uniform. They interact more during the duels, be it emotionally or otherwise. I believe the symbolism deals with the closeness between the two of them.

In the beginning of the series, Utena fights for a girl that is seemingly defenseless against an abusive man (Saionji). As she arrives to her first duel, not knowing exactly what to expect, she is alone, only finding Anthy when she arrives at the arena. At this time, neither Anthy nor Utena know about each other, or care about each other, beyond Utena's desire to serve Saionji the ass-whipping of his life for disrespecting a female. It only makes sense that the Rose Bride would speak to her only if necessary. Utena wins the duel, and Anthy is now engaged to Utena. Every duel until the Akio arc (I believe) starts out with Utena being alone and walking endlessly until reaching the dueling arena. Even after the two are engaged, there is still an air of novelty and nervousness as Utena tries desperately to understand what this girl is all about. Utena learns a little about this person, and for all intents and purposes, they become friends, but in the loosest since of the word. Even as the two of them begin to open up to each other more, they are still not comfortable enough to be able to arrive to the same destination together. Their interactions in the arena are even more estranged; no emotion is shown on Anthy's part for Utena, and very little is shown for Anthy by Utena. The relationship is all business; Utena fights, Anthy watches and is on no particular side. The first show of emotion is by Anthy during Utena's battle against Miki. Miki believes that Anthy wants him to win, but instead is shocked to hear Anthy root for Utena instead. This declaration seems to break the ice, and a true friendship seems to begin to form.

Later in the series, Utena takes the gondola to the arena. Anthy is in it, waiting for her, until Utena actually enters it, in which case Anthy disappears. I think the symbolism there is that Anthy is illusive in her feelings, toward Utena, and towards the world at large. I also think that her leaving her school clothes represents a shedding of the facade she has put up for everyone else, and her reappearance as the Rose Bride is just another layer of that facade, only it is closer to the real Anthy. Utena's transport to the top is faster, but she is still endlessly lost in the complexities of her friend. When Anthy reappears naked, it is as if to say that this is the Anthy that she wants Utena to see: the naked, whole, true Anthy, mistakes and all. She then becomes the Rose Bride, and this is the partially hidden Anthy that Utena is barely starting to see. Now, to change our Prince's uniform, Anthy is no longer distantly changing her uniform with what seems to be meaningless motions. She is touching our Prince, which suggests that they have developed a bond that allows for comfort in usually uncomfortable or tense circumstances, i.e. the duel. I assume that she is touching Utena gently, which may also suggest a sort of compassion or even love for Utena from Anthy. The two (I assume) ride the rest of the way to the arena, the Bride with her Prince, representing a closeness and familiarity between the two.

I assume this theory with the swords as well. In the beginning, it is the sword of Dios pulled from Anthy by Utena that she uses to fight, showing that she is not powerful in her own strength, but needs the strength of another to giver her her own. This idea could allude to Utena's life; she is not able to face life after her parents' death until someone with their own wealth of inner strength lends it her some of that strength, in which case she picks up and moves on. Later, Anthy pulls the sword from Utena, which I believe is used to symbolize her inner strength. The fact that it is pulled out by Anthy seems to point to the idea that Utena's inner strength is only released in its full compacity if someone else brings it out of her, in which case that appeals to her need to defend.

I don't know if that made any sense, but I'm a little tired, so, feel free to look at it and barf, or applaud, whichever comes first.


http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/chani_sama/prince-sig.png

Sir Hellsing: Leader of the Feminine Failure Revolution
Faithfully failing at feminine tasks, gender roles, and the conventionality of femininity since 1990.

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#507 | Back to Top07-09-2008 02:27:08 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I liked the idea of the arriving at the destination together.

Although, the problem I have with the Miki duel is that it can also be argued that Anthy was just rooting for Utena to destroy Miki and his naivete (Destroy is too strong a word, though). The Anthy I know is the Anthy who'd do whatever it takes to get what she needs to succeed. She has little or no problem of ruining Utena's pride at that time after the Touga duel, and she enjoys seeing Juri frustrated and angry by showing Juri the same orange rose that was offered by Shiori.

Akio said that Anthy's heart was moved by Utena since the first duel against Saionji. Something is already going on inside Anthy's head by then. Maybe it's not exactly friendship. But, I think at that point, her impression toward Utena is somewhat like a "Oh, she's an interesting character. I want to see what she can make of herself in the end." So, maybe it wasn't completely alien between the two. Anthy showed shocked expression when Utena runs toward Saionji with nothing more than a hilt for a sword, and she looked more engrossed into the duel during Saionji's rematch when Utena got kicked (Was that the time?) And when Utena guards her white rose from Saionji, it shows that Anthy is looking at none but Utena.

But, I don't think the whole deal with Saionji is the real ice-breaker yet. The real ice-breaker, in my opinion, is with the second Touga duel.

But, Anthy certainly wants to keep a distance from Utena, not wanting to expect too much out of Utena. All the way before Utena's second duel with Touga, I think Anthy is testing Utena's character. Utena's human after all, and humans are prone to err and failure. She can say to Utena the same thing she said to Saionji "Cheer up, Tenjo-kun." <- But, I think she's in a state of denial about Utena being just another duelist to her. She looks at Utena's hankerchief and remembers how Utena would drink tea and smile at her while Touga would walk off with random girls. I think she knew by then that Utena's not perfect, but at least she's the only one who wants to get to know her. I think that is when Anthy's feeling toward Utena changes from "what an interesting person" to "she's a friend", and she has confirmed that new feeling with her tears, which broke the spell on Touga's sword <-to me, that's where the real "ice-breaker" is.

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#508 | Back to Top07-09-2008 04:14:18 PM

Prince_of_Stars
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From: The Hellsing Organization
Registered: 06-12-2008
Posts: 4165
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I'll have to watch the series again. I don't remember half that stuff, or maybe I wasn't paying attention.emot-confusedemot-gonkemot-redface


http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/chani_sama/prince-sig.png

Sir Hellsing: Leader of the Feminine Failure Revolution
Faithfully failing at feminine tasks, gender roles, and the conventionality of femininity since 1990.

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#509 | Back to Top07-09-2008 08:50:21 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Prince_of_Stars wrote:

Even as the two of them begin to open up to each other more, they are still not comfortable enough to be able to arrive to the same destination together.

Ohh, I like this. It's funny that they do always meet at the arena, rather than elsewhere. Except for the finale, where they meet on the stairs in front of the entrance instead. It's definitely a lack of comfort, but I also wonder if it's not a mutual agreement, unspoken, to keep this part of their lives separate from every other. Meeting at some other location in the school would make that location also linked to the duels, which Utena at least usually approaches with distaste. Kinda like how some people go to one bar when they're sad, and another when they're happy, to keep conflicting emotions apart.

This is also reminding me of Miki's line in the first episode of the Akio Arc, when they're discussing the gondola that Ends of the World has revealed. 'It's supposed to take us to a new level.' ...he's right and yet not, for the same reason the student council always is. It thinks is the main thrust of Ends of the World's work, when it's really just there as a means to create Utena as he needs her to be. Us to a new level? Nope, wrong us, bucko.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#510 | Back to Top07-09-2008 11:45:39 PM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Giovanna wrote:

Ohh, I like this. It's funny that they do always meet at the arena, rather than elsewhere. Except for the finale, where they meet on the stairs in front of the entrance instead. It's definitely a lack of comfort, but I also wonder if it's not a mutual agreement, unspoken, to keep this part of their lives separate from every other.

I'm not sure if it's relevant, but I'm suddenly reminded of Episode 36. In a brief flashback during the final duel with Touga, Utena and Anthy are shown talking during the ride up to the arena. "Trust me, Anthy. I swear that I'll always protect you." I'm pretty sure this is the only time anything like that occurs, and it really does seem like an unspoken agreement up until then. I suppose it's meant to further build up the bond between them to make the end of the episode all the more effective. Oh, bait-and-switch, I love you so! school-devil That's what I think, anyway...

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#511 | Back to Top07-16-2008 08:46:32 PM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I'm thinking of near the end of the series, during those bedroom scenes, where Utena and Anthy fall onto their beds and talk about stuff... In almost all of those dialogues, Anthy is on the point of saying something, and then stops herself. She says something along the lines of "Actually, Utena-sama, I... Nothing. Never mind."

They've got to the point where they're comfortable sleeping on adjacent beds, and they are ALMOST comfortable enough to open up, but not quite.

In those scenes, it seems to me like Anthy is just an inch away from spilling all the beans.

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#512 | Back to Top07-16-2008 09:20:06 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Mishi wrote:

I'm thinking of near the end of the series, during those bedroom scenes, where Utena and Anthy fall onto their beds and talk about stuff... In almost all of those dialogues, Anthy is on the point of saying something, and then stops herself. She says something along the lines of "Actually, Utena-sama, I... Nothing. Never mind."

They've got to the point where they're comfortable sleeping on adjacent beds, and they are ALMOST comfortable enough to open up, but not quite.

In those scenes, it seems to me like Anthy is just an inch away from spilling all the beans.

What I love is Touga and Akio's similiar posturing at the end of Saionji and Nanami's Akio-Arc duels.


On a side-note, sorry I haven't been contributing much to the great increase in analysis lately guys.  I have been reading and enjoying, it's
just that despite my enthusiam and how much I write, analysis and putting my thoughts together is difficult for me, and requires a good deal of time and a relaxed, engergized and focused mind on my part in order to contribute anything worthwhile.  Since college starts for me soon and I'm still working fulltime, I'm a tad preoccupied with planning, making tacos, and worrying myself sick over the tiniest of things.

I'm not going to give up on my Nanami Duel-Arc episode analysis, nor my essay on her, though. 

etc-love

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#513 | Back to Top07-17-2008 04:16:08 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

dollface wrote:

Wikipedia wrote:

Reversi/Othello is an abstract strategy board game which involves play by two parties on an eight-by-eight square grid with pieces that have two distinct sides. Pieces typically appear coin-like, but with a light and a dark face, each side representing one player. The object of the game is to make your pieces constitute a majority of the pieces on the board at the end of the game, by turning over as many of your opponent's pieces as possible.

In 1970, the game was renamed as Othello in reference to Shakespeare's Othello, The Moor of Venice. Othello was described as two-faced, represented by the white and the black.

I'm not sure if it's important or not, but Othello was an archetype of jealous lover - even in psychology exists term Othello's syndrome.
Akio-Utena-Anthy (plus Dios?) are all jealous lovers, aren't they? I think they all just like Othello. And, at the end, Othello kills in fury his beloved one because of his mad jealousy. (Anthy stabbing Utena?)

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#514 | Back to Top07-17-2008 04:26:44 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

On a side-note, sorry I haven't been contributing much to the great increase in analysis lately guys.  I have been reading and enjoying, it's
just that despite my enthusiam and how much I write, analysis and putting my thoughts together is difficult for me, and requires a good deal of time and a relaxed, engergized and focused mind on my part in order to contribute anything worthwhile.  Since college starts for me soon and I'm still working fulltime, I'm a tad preoccupied with planning, making tacos, and worrying myself sick over the tiniest of things.

I'm not going to give up on my Nanami Duel-Arc episode analysis, nor my essay on her, though. 

etc-love

I wouldn't be too worried -- I've been much the same way the last few days. I want to say more stuff, but even when I spout off random stuff I usually have thought at least SOME of it through first. emot-biggrin And do not give up on Nanami! I need more Nanami in my life! etc-loveetc-loveetc-love


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#515 | Back to Top07-17-2008 04:57:53 AM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I have been reading and enjoying, it's just that despite my enthusiam and how much I write, analysis and putting my thoughts together is difficult for me, and requires a good deal of time and a relaxed, engergized and focused mind on my part in order to contribute anything worthwhile.

But you make it look so easy! poptart

I wish I could contribute more to the analysis threads, but most of the time I'm content to just read along and enjoy learning from the experts. In practice I've never analyzed fiction so deeply before unless it involved a term paper or something, but members of this forum have been doing so for years. That's impressive, and a bit overwhelming too!

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#516 | Back to Top07-17-2008 09:53:55 AM

Mishi
Pained Growlithe
From: Montreal
Registered: 04-11-2008
Posts: 528

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

OnionPrince wrote:

I wish I could contribute more to the analysis threads, but most of the time I'm content to just read along and enjoy learning from the experts. In practice I've never analyzed fiction so deeply before unless it involved a term paper or something, but members of this forum have been doing so for years. That's impressive, and a bit overwhelming too!

hear hear. That's exactly how I feel. I like to put in my own two cents, but I can only pick up a few unrelated clues here or there. Not enough to make an essay.

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#517 | Back to Top07-17-2008 02:37:21 PM

NajiMinkin
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From: The Incredible Edible Egg
Registered: 06-23-2007
Posts: 2537

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

dlaire wrote:

I'm not sure if it's important or not, but Othello was an archetype of jealous lover - even in psychology exists term Othello's syndrome.
Akio-Utena-Anthy (plus Dios?) are all jealous lovers, aren't they? I think they all just like Othello. And, at the end, Othello kills in fury his beloved one because of his mad jealousy. (Anthy stabbing Utena?)

Specifically, I'd be inclined to think of Akio as Iago and Utena and Anthy as Desdemona and Othello. There are a lot of similarities with SKU and Othello. But that's for another thread and another day.


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#518 | Back to Top07-23-2008 08:26:15 AM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

What is one of the biggest reasons to love SKU? No matter how many times you watch it, you can always catch something new. The other day, I noticed something that I had never noticed before:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d51/trueutenafan/Utena/dios.jpg

(Sorry, it's copy-pasted from YouTube. The Gallery didn't have the shot I needed.) The drink Akio has is obviously translucent-- we can see the ice cubes and his straw through it. But why does Dios disappear behind it? Perhaps it is a symbol that now, the "Prince" is nothing more than an illusion. Or perhaps it means that Akio is now the one in control, and the part of him that was Dios has now been drained away. Or it could mean the exact opposite, that Dios is choosing to leave his slumber and bestow upon Utena the strength she needed.

However, given the events surrounding this scene, my personal favorite interpretation would be that Utena had finally gained the strength to cast aside her desires and fulfil the promise she made to Anthy. Even when they were younger, Dios was nothing more than a catalyst for Utena. She fought, not truly for Anthy, but for her prince. Somewhere along the line, Utena knew this, but she still clung to the idea of Dios. He showed her eternity, but the missing factor is what that eternity meant-- Anthy and her suffering. Now that she is prying the coffin open, and truly crying tears for Anthy, Dios has no use anymore. This symbol of nobility and justice pushed Utena through all these years, but now that she is able to see the truth- and accept it- she can stand on her own without this ideal.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#519 | Back to Top07-23-2008 09:48:00 AM

Baka Kakumei Reanna
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From: Wisconsin
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Posts: 572
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

It seems easily dismissed as laziness on the part of the artist-- not wanting to bother drawing the image of someone through a glass, but if that were the case, why would that shot have been chosen in the first place? So yes, I'm inclined to believe there's more to it than that.


We see things not as they are, we see things as we are.

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#520 | Back to Top07-23-2008 10:32:10 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Strangely, I'm going to mark it up as just an animation error, even though that's a beautiful message to read into it.  The reason is that the last time I watched the last episode, I noticed that after Dios kisses Utena (and I always imagine he actually kisses the signet, not her)...after Utena raises her arm to punch the ground, up until she is at the Rose Gate...each time her signet-hand is shown, I don't see the ring.  I'll see her finger, but not the ring.  But then the ring reappears when she's at the door, so I figure it was that animator felt you shouldn't be able to see the ring at that distance or angle.  Though, honestly, she doesn't seem to show it that often in those intervening moments.  So it may also be that my copy sucks :-)  Because it's not something I'd ever noted before and I think it's something I would have...

But if it was deliberate, it's interesting...  Ikuhara said (in one of his random straightforward moments) that when Akio is drinking that drink, it symbolizes him draining Utena's life force.  By extension, you could view the the contents of the glass as Utena/her life force.  The fact that Dios is conspicuously missing can mean that Utena doesn't need him anymore.  In the same vein, it can also mean that Utena is NOT the Prince, doesn't need to be, and/or doesn't want to be at that moment.  Maybe all she wants to do is help Anthy. :-)  And/or that what Utena has become is something that overrides the Prince.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (07-23-2008 10:46:09 AM)


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#521 | Back to Top07-23-2008 03:51:30 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

rhyaniwyn wrote:

But if it was deliberate, it's interesting...  Ikuhara said (in one of his random straightforward moments) that when Akio is drinking that drink, it symbolizes him draining Utena's life force.

HOLY CHRIST emot-aaa emot-aaa emot-aaa
Ikuhara said something useful. I think my brain just blew up. Pity, I just did the floors. emot-frown

It's definitely an awesome message to read into, and I wouldn't rule it out. I would point out though that it's not the first time Akio's drink has been suspiciously opaque. His drink in episode 30 is also so, even though it shouldn't be, if we assume it's brandy by how he's holding it. I guess it could be a red wine, but if it is, Akio needs a punch in the cock for palming it like that. emot-mad They do the same thing to the same drink in actual series artwork of him also. I'm inclined to suspect it's laziness, or that really, that level of detail would be almost jarring in SKU's artstyle. They seem to be most comfortable letting liquids be opaque. Kinda like hair, a lot of the time.

I checked the screencaps I have of that sequence, rhy, and didn't actually see any shots where her ring hand is shown until she's tugging at the gate...am I missing something? emot-confused


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#522 | Back to Top07-23-2008 07:12:38 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Yeah, I don't see it in screenshots either :-)  Which leads me to believe it was the shoddy quality of my DVDs during my last watch + my notorious inability to grasp 3D space.

Though now that the idea has occured to me, I think they SHOULD have had the ring disappear!


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#523 | Back to Top07-23-2008 07:23:36 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

rhyaniwyn wrote:

But if it was deliberate, it's interesting...  Ikuhara said (in one of his random straightforward moments) that when Akio is drinking that drink, it symbolizes him draining Utena's life force.  By extension, you could view the the contents of the glass as Utena/her life force.  The fact that Dios is conspicuously missing can mean that Utena doesn't need him anymore.  In the same vein, it can also mean that Utena is NOT the Prince, doesn't need to be, and/or doesn't want to be at that moment.  Maybe all she wants to do is help Anthy. :-)  And/or that what Utena has become is something that overrides the Prince.

That's on the commentary, isn't it? I remember that. I always thought it was strange, because after he sucks them dry, Utena seems to have amazing inner strength in prying that door open. Also, Anthy finds the comfort in Utena's actions and words to wake up. Ikuhara, why do you have to make your symbolism so confusing? emot-mad

Well, maybe it's laziness, but just the way the scene is formatted, I feel inclined to believe that it's not. I mean, why would they animate him even walking behind it if it was something they were too lazy to animate? I feel like Dios walking away would be just as effective without that drink in the foreground. I don't know, sometimes I feel like most of the symbolism I cook up is just me reading too far into things, and Ikuhara didn't intend for it to mean anything. But when I read through this thread, it's hard to believe that.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#524 | Back to Top07-23-2008 07:38:12 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

The red cherry or whatever that is on the swizzle stick makes it look like Utena and Anthy's blood is being sucked by the red-eyed one-horned monster that Prince Dios battled in the earlier episode.

My memory is fuzzy, is Dios exiting? IF yes, then maybe that means that Utena has become a Prince. His turn is over so now Dios can leave the scene and leave everything in Utena's hands.

Boy, I'm getting overwrought here.

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#525 | Back to Top08-04-2008 01:49:27 PM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1107

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Anthiena wrote:

I'm not sure if someone has touched on this, but, Spira Mirabilis actually means something! It's called the Golden Spiral and it exists in many places:

http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMT668/EMAT6 … story.html

Interesting enough, it is known in nature and scientists noted that even when it grows, it remains the same shape, as in a certain kind of mullosk. One scientist had this carved on his grave:

Jacob Bernoulli (1654-1705)  wrote:

"Eadem mutata resurgo" ("I shall arise the same, though changed.")

He was THAT fascinated by it's "mathmatical beauty". Now the title makes more sense...

I think I'm going to attempt an analysis of Miki's first duel. Goddess help me.


Dirge of an Imaginary Girl, Nocturne of the Real Girl

In the beginning of the game, we know little of Kozue. From a writer's perspective, this is just a good device; the manga wasn't finished, the introduction of Kozue in the first two episodes would be too much. We get introduced to her in almost a blink of an eye-she and Touga are doing something at least involving some pretty heavy making out; this is all we see of Kozue in current time during the Sekotai Arc; the rest is from Miki's memories, where she is an unsure, shy kind of girl.

This is certainly not the Kozue we know in Ohtori; it was in a sense, never Kozue at all. Miki, however, has convinced himself of this fact. Whether it is just something that Ohtori does to people or not, is highly effing debatable indeed. In a sense, it is because Miki is a Romantic.

Miki being a Romantic makes his character begin to make sense at this point. He idealizes things, but it is based in a sort of false sense of logic. (Miki is rather young in the show, remember-he's still a preteen, not a full-fledged teen like say Juri, Saionji and Touga) He dwells on the memory of a memory and that is indeed something he shares with Utena, but what he does with that obsession is unhealthy indeed.

When Miki begins to hang out with Anthy and hears her piano playing, it is for him, like bringing the Kozue of memory back from the dead-and I do mean that phrase. Miki mourns his sister, or at least the memory of her and ignores the living version in front of her. To him, Kozue would have been better off dying, though not in the literal sense I am giving here. He finds a proxy and here is where everyone knows pretty much what they are seeing: Miki is enamored and crushing over Anthy, but it isn't really Anthy that he wants.

So why doesn't Miki himself not see this?

For one, his age. Precocious intelligence is a very heavy burden to bear and really, he's a bit too young to recognize transference. He leaves his anger and his guilt aimed at Kozue. Intellectually, he knows sickness can't be prevented, but he blames himself and is angry at himself... but as they grew older and Kozue detached herself, he began to grow angry at her. How dare she. How dare she have a life separate from him. How dare she be what he was afraid of back then. How dare she be different.

...and in a sense, he starts to get angry at Utena. When he finds that something so precious to him can be taken at a whim from his substitute for Kozue, he wants, illogically, to prevent history from repeating itself. So he challenges Utena. To him now, Utena is also a stand-in for the negative feelings for himself. He isn't only fighting for a memory/substitute of Kozue, he is fighting himself.

All these things are at the back of his head as he fights and he fights very well. He wants to fight for his doll/substitute, and Anthy, being the jaded being she is, recognizes this. She may even find it in her to be amused at his innocence and mis-aimed crush. So she does the only thing she can without being called out on it: Cheering for Utena.

So why this simple guesture? Miki is placing his romantic hopes of perhaps... one-upping his sister. To recatch her attention... so Anthy kills all his misaimed like and cheers for Utena; for him perhaps, it is like cheering for all his flaws, all his guilt, all of the baggage he heaps upon himself... and it breaks his resolve. Anthy doesn't want him. She exerts her will on Utena's behalf and in his shock, he stumbles... and he loses.


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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