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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#251 | Back to Top06-09-2007 06:43:32 AM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Another thing that comes through in the knife-throwing scene is that Touga is hitting his target unerringly, even blindfolded.  His knives are aimed at Miki, but his words are aimed at Juri.  Just as the knives create an image of Miki on the wall behind him, the words create an image of Juri.

And I'm not a big Touga fan, but the image of him throwing knives in the circus makes me giggle.  Perhaps in a gypsy costume?emot-biggrin


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#252 | Back to Top06-09-2007 08:59:09 AM

Hiraku
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Stormcrow wrote:

And I'm not a big Touga fan, but the image of him throwing knives in the circus makes me giggle.  Perhaps in a gypsy costume?emot-biggrin

That's a nice idea for General SKUpidity, isn't it emot-smile. Lamentably, I have no photoshop.

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#253 | Back to Top06-09-2007 12:41:34 PM

Giovanna
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Stormcrow wrote:

His knives are aimed at Miki, but his words are aimed at Juri.

This makes it sound like the symbolism is describing the conversation. Touga appears to be throwing knives at Miki, but his target is the board, and he hits it with or without Miki's help. Just like the conversation he's having. His words seem aimed at Miki, and Miki is the one responding to him, but it's Juri his words hit. And just like the board, Juri doesn't respond, though she's being poked full of holes and should rightly run to her own defense.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#254 | Back to Top06-09-2007 12:43:47 PM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Yeah, Touga fails completely to get a rise out of her...perhaps he's not hitting his target after all?


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#255 | Back to Top06-09-2007 02:05:01 PM

Ragnarok
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Well he is hitting close enough to his target, even if (blind folded) he's not entirely clear on what that target is. But it's enough to get the desired result: Juri challenging Utena.


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#256 | Back to Top06-09-2007 02:10:36 PM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Right, I was just thinking about that scene, and ignoring the context of the episode.  He was on target after all.


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#257 | Back to Top06-10-2007 01:09:13 AM

SleepDebtFairy
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

... emot-aaa

Now I vow to pay attention to the student council meeting segments more.. I never noticed that. Interesting. I need to rewatch that episode to see what they were talking about again..

(..seriously, the student council meeting symbolism was the only symbolism I almost thought was just random. emot-gonk )


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

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#258 | Back to Top06-10-2007 04:45:21 PM

Coco Melancholy
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Registered: 06-04-2007
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Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

That's amazing! I never thought about that. There should be a thread for the council meetings or something.

I'm not exactly good with this stuff and I shy away from these topics', I'm not really smart but I was reading this thread and thought I might add a few comments if thats alright...

I started reading this thread and then my mother forced me to get off the laptop and buy her some ciagerettes. On the way back I was thinking about the scene with Dios and how condensceding he seems to be to Utena in episode 39.

I agree.......to me myself, he does seem to be mocking her, I also don't know whether or not it was to get the reaction that Utena eventually gave him. For my own sanities sake, I'm going to say my thoughts from Utena's perspective.

Okay here we go:

Everyone is in their roles in this sequence.

Akio is the false prince doing he's job of trying to become a real prince. Anthy is the rose bride doing her job of being impaled. Anthy told Utena quite frankly that she can't be her prince so Utena is instead in her princess garb which would mean her job is to be a princess and do what princesses do, (like the 'tale of the rose' play states), her job is to sit around and wait for someone else to do the rescuing. Which she does, she screams for Akio to rescue Anthy. Princesses scream for help you see. Other than that, they do nothing. Dios is the prince and he's job is to help the princess (Utena), as he's already stated he can't help Anthy-she can't be he's princess, and even if she could be he's princess, he still cannot help her because she's currently in her role as the rose bride. Since he's a prince, he can only save princesses, which Utena is at this stage. So he does he's job, he kisses the princess (like when he first meets Utena, also like the play where he kisses the princesses when he rescues them), he tells her she should stay still, because of course she's a princess, and princesses shouldn't do anything, and he offers to heal her wounds later on. Only HER wounds because he cannot help the rose bride, only the princess.

And everything is all dandy and fairytaley and wonderful.

This is what Utena wants.

The false prince is trying to be a real prince. The rose bride is protecting her false prince. The princess is a damsel in distress. The prince is rescuing the princess. Everything is as it should be. Everyone has their job and is doing them.

Its just like a fairytale.

This is what Utena has been living in. A fairytale where everyone fulfills their roles and does their job.

This is what shes aspired to right?

Wrong.

Because here it has gotten to the point where it is actually sick. And the shot of the close up of Utena's face is probably one of the most adult expressions Utena ever shows. She looks grief sicken and fed up. The fairy tale was fun and sweet for inspiration and a bit of hope. But this is ridiculous. This is real life for heavens sake. She's bleeding and weak and her friend is being assualted and nobody is doing anything because of this bizarre concept that they are supposed to be limited to these kiddish roles. I mean when she looks up at Dios, it looks as if she's just realised how absurd this all is, and her fist hitting the ground seems to scream to me that she's sick of it, in a kind if, stuff it, I'll do it myself, sort of attitute.

Thinking about it that way, Utena is probably at her most mature in that moment, and everyone else seems almost childish in comparison.

Akio is still in he's role and babbling on, ah I couldn't open the door so you can't open the door blah blah yada yada yada, anyway, Utena isn't bothered, she's rejected these roles and simply pushes him away because she's not a princess who has the ability to take care of herself but yet still waits around to be rescued by a prince. And she's not a prince like Dios who has the ability to save others but only saves Princesses at the expense of himself. She's Utena goddammit and Anthy is suffering and she's going to do something about it because she's her friend. Simple. She doesn't care if it goes against some half assed fairy tale rules or roles, or that she's a girl or that she's not a princess or is a princess or is not a prince or is a prince or about revoultionizing the world.

Her friend needs help, she's going to be honest, and help her. And she does.

Akio is trying to open the door with a princes force.

But when Utena approaches the door she strips herself of these layers and notions and in her suffering she is herself, she meets Anhty who is naked and bare of these layers and notions and this is Anthy herself. The two meet and in the sincerity of the meeting. Where two friends meet. A revolution is made.

This is my overall thoughts on this moment, its sadly the best I can come up with right now. I'm sorry.

Dios could be taunting her, but that would be very unprince like and Dios's princelike nature was kinda the problem in the first place, so it can't be this, unless he is mocking her to deliberately get her to act (which would be soooo cool), OR, it could just be the situation that is mocking her, and that makes it seem like he's the one mocking her, when in actual fact he's just being what he is. A prince. After all, he can't do anything, he is a prince, he is an ideal, she is a girl, etc, etc, he's just doing what he's hardwiring is telling him.

However Utena isn't an ideal, she's real, she has choices and options and she's here to show Anthy she isn't an ideal either, she's not only a rose bride, she's a girl whose got options and choices too.

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#259 | Back to Top06-10-2007 04:46:28 PM

Coco Melancholy
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Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Also quickly on the note of this line that Akio says with regards to Shiori:

“You’re just like Ganymede, the boy of the constellation Aquarius. Innocent and pure. But such innocence can hurt other people. Be careful.”

And somebody said:

Ganymede, in Greek mythology, was the cupbearer of the Gods.

And another person said:

It's probably a bit of a moot to point out that Shiori is in fact an Aquarius. Her birthday is February 2nd. Aquarius the water barrier... yadda yadda... and etc. *grin*

I thought that was interesting and I thought the same thing. It's also interesting to note that Aquarius, Shiori's sign is the most complicated sign in the zodiac and FULL of contradictions. Which I think goes with our quiet but rather dark character. Its not actually a water sign which is one of it's contradictions but the image of Aquarius carries water, (it is the water bearer) and shares it out to others, spreading the wisdom as it will. Shiori is actually nothing like her sign (almost the opposite which is important in itself) and astrologically it almost seems as though circumstances have caused her to go against her own nature.

Aquarius is noted for NOT being petty, they work in the grand scheme of things, its also the sign of friendship, something they value above all eles and a good way to describe even their romantic feelings for others. This would highlight Shiori going against her own nature, or perhaps devolping a shadow of her nature. And if thats the case she could be seen as a rather tragic character who spends most of the show possessed by her own shadow.

Juri is much of the same, shes almost the opposite of her sign which gives the feeling of going against her own nature. Perhaps she is just naturally regal, but Sagatarius is a jovial and OPEN sign. In fact just like Shiori, a lot of traites Juri's sign is well known for, actually oppose her in many ways. The OPENESS, and HONESTY and CAREFREE nature of Sagatrius is absent from Juri. And its almost as if even while living in the light, she like Shiroi is living in the shadows. As though, as I said, she is going against her own nature too.

As I've said in the astrology thread, the star signs in the characters are intriguing I think. Another point I'll make here is that Juri and Shiori are astrological friends, Sagatarius and Aquarius are friendship signs, in my opiuon good friends too. Which I'm guessing these two once were.

Juri's sign is also friends with Miki's in case anybody wanted to know, and her sign is suppose to learn lessons from Utena.

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#260 | Back to Top06-10-2007 04:48:30 PM

Coco Melancholy
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Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I find Shiori and Juri's relationship fascinating, though I can't see much yuri between them, maybe in their dreams (I mean literally), in pre-Utena days but not much fron what canon shows me (though since when have I ever respected canon O.o). So I might have a go at sharing my thoughts, their random and mixed up and I apologise deeply:

I would never say that one persons suffering is worse than another. But I would say that Juri has painfully less endurance than Shiori, she's extrememley deep feeling but doesn't express her emotions much and that is an UNHEALTHY combination. That one moment in time, that one event totally stunts her.

I mean, she's a passionate fire sign with flame coloured hair for gods sake, but shes always constantly putting herself near water, at the lake, under the shower, its almost as if she's putting her own fire out with her feelings for the bearer of this water. The water bearer Shiori. Like a child, (because all of Ohotri's studtents are children), she cannot cope with the sting of having her hopes lifted only to feel disppointment afterwards.

Shiori on the other hand has amazingly more endurance than Juri, I will have to give her that, she isn't just hit by one event, but kicked over and over, if I was her, I would just crawl into a corner and die, but she's actually able to take a lot more than Juri does, despite having explicitly less confidence then Juri, she still somehow survives not only her dismally tiny self worth, but having it shoved beside Juri (ouch!), risking her friendship for a boy she thought she loved only to realise she didn't (oops) losing said friendship in the process (oops) it was all for nothing because Juri didn't even like the guy anyway (whoops) and something has to be said for falling in love and being fucked maybe even losing her virginity and being pubically humilated immediately afterwards.



I must put in that I've heard others put Shiori on the same level as Kozue, and as I mentioned elsewhere, I don't think this is the case, I love Kozue, but I think she's in much of a league of her own.

What makes Shiroi so tragic (or pathetic depending on how you see it), is that she actually isn't all that manipulative O.o

The only manipulative thing she does is run off with Juri's man......and he wasn't even her man.........she didn't even have an interest in him......he was just...like...there....

She can't even get it right when she DOES try to be scheming.

She always seems to REACT to events to me, she never seems to plan them out or plot them, she just seems like a quiet shy girl whos down on herself and just wants to be on the same level as her friend.

She saw herself in a love triangle with Juri in their past, so it's all well and good right? And heck, may the best girl win!

She looked like she geuinely thought she liked this guy. To me it seemed like Shiori was telling Juri to believe in miracles to keep her in her place so she could "win" in their supposed love feud and take the guy. This would obviously make Juri angry and hate her because she "lost".

I actually don't think she knew she'd break the girls heart. Because she sounded pretty surprised to find out that she only did it because she thought Juri wanted him. It didn't seem to occur all that much to her that Juri's heart would be broken, only that she would be angry and full of hate because she "lost" to Shiori in their supposed love triangle, she thought Juri loved the guy too, and she sounds pretty unhappy with herself because of it, in her eyes it makes her "pathetic".

Even when she thinks, oh yeah well, Juri likes me, mwahhahahaha, she pretty much stinks at her attempt to swindle a real scheme out of it because her brain can't compute how someone as magnicficent as Juri would show an interest in her, she can't even seem to get her head around the very concept of same sex relationships.

And in the Ruka episodes shes not even planning, I seriously think she is just getting owned in those episodes, she really is. Just, pwned.......people....pwned emot-tongue

(But with some practice who knows, maybe she could reach the level of the protagonist in Madamhyrda's fanfic FF7 conflicts of interest *shudders*)

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#261 | Back to Top06-10-2007 04:49:19 PM

Coco Melancholy
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Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I just have to say it takes A LOT for me to hate a character, and if I dislike a character I will spend ages trying to figure out why exactly I dislike them, because we all know that unless someone has actually done something to you. Hurt you or someone you care about. You really have no reason to dislike them, and since anime characters don't jump out of TV scenes and hurt you, its safe to say you don't like a character either because they remind you of someone or they touch an aspect of yourself (maybe they remind you of something you don't like about yourself perhaps??). So I usually don't tend to dislike characters for very long, I just tend to feel more passionately about some then others.

(There's only one character in history I've never been able to like *coughff7cough* but we're not going there)

Anyway when I first saw Shiori in the black rose, I was in SHOCK, not because of how she was acting, but because of how outta no where it came. I was just like....WTF.....I felt extrememly uncomfortable watching that episode, and I really did dislike her, she frigging scared me O.o

Anyway once I calmed down she grew on me, and shockingly enough, I think, I think I kind of like her now. A lot. A lot a lot. The same has to be said of Ruka. At first I thought 'what a jerk! Who does he think he is!', but once I understood he's intentions, I really liked him. Of course intentions don't create a saint, Juri and Shiori seem so bound that a simple action like saying, "hey Juri, why don't you take that locket off your neck and talk to Shiori", just wouldn't cut it, (someone needs to tell Utena this too), its a rule of good anime, (and good fanfiction, I'm thinking of two in particular), where in order to cut those bonds that hold you back from growth, a LOT of suffering has to be undergone, for such great transformation, great tribulation must be endured first, and considering Ruka was dying, he didn't really have much time for trial and error, he needed something big, drastic and fast to get Juri's attention and eventually free her, and that was it.

I really liked Razara's analysis, and preferred it much more to what I got from the program. I don't think I really gave the characters much credit. And I think all I thought was kinda wrong now. (And maybe too simple??)

I actually thought that Ruka didn't know about Shiori, I thought that he considered Juri and Shiori to share some kind of intricate bond of friendship or something a little deeper that was holding Juri back, I mean all he needs to know is that she cares for Shiori, that Shiori hurt her, and that Shiori has some kind of hold over her. Thats all he needs to want to damage the girl and free Juri from her in order to restore Juri's belief's and give her a chance to grow.

I mean Shiori didn't really know Ruka when he popped up again so I wouldn't think they knew eachother well or AT ALL before hand.

If thats the case how much could he really know about the two??

Of course he loves Juri and he's facial expression looks honestly exasperated and confused when she says he should take Shiori back, right after she said he should leave her, "whatever makes her happy", at the sacrafice of [i[herself??[/i], is that it, is that what she's saying, but he's here to be the sacrafice, not Juri, he could say exactly the same thing, he wants Juri to be happy, but he does NOT want Shiori, she's spoilt, pushy, self centred and a liar, he wants the other half of himself, he wants Juri. There has to be the fleeting hope that she will return he's feelings, he still treasures the days when they use to fence together, she said it to HIM herself, which I find utterly disturbing,

Ruka: “‘Believe in miracles, and they will know your feelings.’ Weren’t those your words?”

Could it be that Juri herself innocently did the same to Ruka and gave him the hope that he's feelings would be requitted. Telling him Believe in miracles, and they will know your feelings while all the while pining for Shiori. Obviously Ruka still has those feelings, "because you love your fencing captain don't you", I'm sorry but he sounds sure of this to me, it doesn't sound planned and it wouldn't help he's plan, and he seems to kiss her with these (delusions??) in mind. Of course Juri pushes him away and Ruka somehow gets hold of the locket in the violent kiss. When its in hes palm I remember hearing a sort of...cluck...sound, I mean he must have known she carried that locket but I don't think he knew who was inside it anymore than Shiori did, when I heard that cluck sound I assumed he'd opened it and saw inside for the first time, and he's expression looks a little astonished to me (I don't know who he thought was in there....maybe he even hoped in a weird way that it was himself), when he turns back to Juri, it looks as though he's seeing her in a new light. Or as if he finally understands, or somethings just come together in he's head. I imagined he was feeling downright jealous, hurt and betrayed, if he had any idea's about he's "plan", and what was really going on and having some sort of objective upperhand. This scene shows him as truly mistaken as he is just as tangled as Shiori and Juri are, shown by the way he threatens to stamp on the locket. 'I've loved you purely for so long and this is what you've chosen over me', this is echoed by he's fight with her, "don't you find it unfair Juri", he sounds passionate and angry, its not fair, this selfish girl who only thinks about herself when he's there willing to love, sacrafice and develop Juri, even back then, he didn't care about he's ego the same way Shiori did, he'd be happy to see Juri outshine him, he knew she could and wanted her to, but Shiori?? All this time that was what was holding Juri back, not just from him, but from moving on too, Shiori and this stupid locket, 'well then, I think I'll just take care of that', and he seems quite willing to stamp on it in front of her face. When Juri slaps him and covers the locket protectively, he turns back and looks very antagonised, to the point that it is actually quite saddening to watch. The person he loves, loves someone who is destroying them, cannot return he's feelings and also can't stand him, on top of all this.......he's dying.

I don't think during any of this he intented Juri to despise him, and he says something along the lines of, "you really hate me don't you", and he sounds full of resignation, as if he never thought of this possiblity before, and though its quite painful everything has fallen into place and it all suddenly makes sense. He has to accept the fact that she hates him. He knows her secrect now, and thats when he's all, "actually, I'll do what you want, I'll take her back", he knows no matter what, Juri is going to duel to protect her friend, but here he sounds FULL of spite to me and vaguely sarcastic, like, yeah okay, okay, fine see if I care, I'll take her back, obviously with the intent of fucking her over for the purposes of revenge, and of course Juri knows this and panics saying she'll do anything he says if he wins against her in a duel. Of course if he loses he must leave Shiori alone.

I see Ruka and Shiori and Juri as being one person. Yes, I know, shoot me okay, I believe three people can make one. This is SKU, who cares about making sense in SKU?

Shiori and Juri are one person. Black and white. Light and Shadow. In Shiori's duel song I remember hearing the word twins repeated which could connect to the two of them being one. The black and white bird could be shadow and light, which represents Juri (light)-I mean just listen to her duel song back in episode 7, and of course Shiori is the shadow, something she refers to herself as being. Despite Shiori's hatred for Juri she keeps doing stuff to get her attention and it rules her life, Juri desires Shiori's attention, and it rules her life too. They are both intertwined and attracted to eachother. In the episode with the chairs, like the bird (who represents them both-black white, light shadow), the floor is also black and white, showing that even though Ruka's here, we know what this is all really about, beneath it all, its about Shiori and Juri, they are the foundation that the three sit on, guys like the first one came and went, Ruka came and went, but Shiori and Juri have to stay and sort what they have between themselves. Something I think that lead to their downfall, and Kozue and Miki's as well since they are also one, is lack of communication.

Ruka and Juri are one person. Like in the song Anima and Animus. With Juri representing Ruka's Anima, and Ruka representing Juri's Animus, what she has the potential to be if she taps into it. Their genders together make them one being. I'm pretty sure theres an essay on this somewhere.

Finally Shiori and Ruka become one physically, though it doesn't seem to go deeper than that its also a form of oneness the free of them share.

Also, just to add when Ruka dies, the room goes red, I always thought of blood and how he sacraficed the last of he's life for Juri here, and Shiori too since as I stated they are a package, they are one, and you can never seem to effect one without effecting the other.

He's chair is missing showing he is no longer there, but Juri's chair is facing him showing he's influence however is. Shiori's chair is facing Juri, and later as Juri walks away into the light Shiori trails behind in her shadow, they are one again, shadow and light, but perhaps with the growth this expierence will bring and with the revolution that takes place, perhaps they will let go of these roles, just as Utena and Anthy let go of theirs, and become friends, on equal level, no longer black or white but the beautiful murky grey inbetween.

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#262 | Back to Top06-10-2007 04:50:02 PM

Coco Melancholy
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Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Possibly Shiori was mortified at being caught with Juri's sword and that is why she had to ad-lib.

I have to comment on this because its such a lovely interpretation of this scene, I NEVER thought of that at all, I just figured it was some random locker with some random sword. I mean Ruka came up with the polishing line so I presummed no one was polishing anything. It was just a bit of bait to reel her in. But I like that idea very much, its cute ^.^

I have to be honest with this scene. When I first saw it, I was like, omg she is SUCH a liar, what a LIAR. BAAAAAAAAAAAIT!

But looking over it again. She seems quite overwhelmed, as I said, this girl just sucks at scheming.

And Ruka doesn't really give her a chance to tell the truth, and I know its terrible thing to say, but I would have done the same thing. I am a bit quiet, with low self worth, and I don't talk up much for myself and to be shocked out of my wits by this intimidating handsome stranger that I figured would probably as soon as gouge out he's own eyes before looking at me with even the vaguest interest, would probably leave me flustered too. I mean come on! Who would not take that oppotunity. Is Ruka not TEH hotness?? But honestly, I mean, Ruka goes all Akio on her and doesn't leave her with that much of a choice, especially considering her personality. The fact he invades her personal space and tells her she polished he's sword. Doesn't help.

Not, did you polish my sword?

Where it would be so much easier to just go, no, sorry, and run like a bat out of hell and pant breathlessly behind some forgotten wall somewhere.

No, it was, "it was you wasn't it". Fuck yeah, I wouldn't object, especially since he says it like that, could he be anymore suggestive. I hardly think its fair to dump her in the middle of a gathered audience just because she didn't polish he's sword though O.o.

Also Shiori doesn't strike me as someone who likes open confrontation either, and she looks honestly frightened when he catches her. He's like, it was you wasn't it, I'd be like um, um, yeah, sure whatever, I polished, I, I, yeah sure. And even the kiss was just taken from her. She doesn't even really get that much of a chance to speak up for herself either. She just seems helpless.

Yes I love and pity all three of them, yes all three are victums to me.

(I secretly aspire to be Juri. But without the issues. How can you NOT love that woman)

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#263 | Back to Top06-10-2007 04:50:28 PM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Extra note:

On top of the idea that maybe Juri was unwittingly giving Ruka false hope with the line, believe in miraces, just like Shiori was doing with her. What I found also disturbing was what someone said one day when I was browsing the net. It was an absent line but it really stuck with me.

It was the idea that maybe Juri may have even showed off to Shiori when they were friends to impress her, that makes me laugh on so many levels, and if Juri acted colder to her because she realised she was in love with her best friend as well, that would just be.....like....wow....my head.

Juri: I know!! I'll really impress her with this move

/Whoosh/

Shiori: stop showing off alredy /pout/

Juri: "How do you think I did?"

Shiori: why are you asking me for? What do I know, or do you just wanna rub it in my face I don't know as much as you

"uh, I think that was very good Juri-san"

*Shiori reaches out her hand to put on Juri's shoulder and Juri gasps and jumps*

Juri: Uh-uh....there's just....I...there's something...right.....

*Juri quickly escapes*

Shiori: O.o

Ooooooh cue confusion and angst......... I honestly love their story........ if all this is true, Juri could be just as innocently cruel as Shiori, after all, I don't believe shes a cynic at heart.

I see Juri as being the protective type, and probably her responsiblity and compassion towards Shiori deepened into a sort of love, and she saw herself as wanting to be her prince. They could have mirrored Utena and Anthy in that maybe in Juri being so busy with her own feelings of love and protection, didn't see how much Shiori was suffering. Maybe even because of them. In the end though, they both move forward.

The badmington match scene before and after show that Juri still loves Shiori, but she shows a lighter approach to love, (like a real sagatarius), displayed by her playful flirting with Utena. I loved this scene, this is the Juri I imagined she should be, I think she's still young, to get so bogged DOWN by the fact someone she loved dated someone else, okay it hurt, but three years crying in the shower, come on, sitting alone in the darkness, screaming at the top of your lungs miracles are for sappies, for three years that is just TOO much for a 16, 17 year old, how OLD is she anyway??

She just needed to like, chill a bit, okay Shiori doesn't love you, but it's not the end of the world, and I love that scene because it shows she has chilled in her frame of mind.

I have to say that Juri is the kind of character that seems hard on the outside but is a bubble of goo inside, it makes you want to hug her. Shiori is the reverse of this, she seems soft and sweet outside but is anything but inside, it makes you want run away screaming from her (or kick her if you are a Shiori hater).

I know everyones going to think my thoughts are wrong because their nothing like anyone elses and I think I did probably misinterpret the whole thing, but thats just what I got on that. Sorry so much about the ramble. That's all I'll say for now. And sorry again.

Last edited by Coco Melancholy (06-12-2007 10:55:12 AM)

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#264 | Back to Top06-10-2007 04:51:45 PM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I think it's probably because I'm not as smart as everyone here but I didn't get what the debate about love was about earlier. Where does maturity play into it? Love is just an emotion and how its expressed is dependent on the personality that feels it right? And no one in Utena is at the peak of themselves, they all have to learn more and grow as all people have to. Adult, child and teen alike. Some a bit (not a lot because lets face it...they're all as bad as eachother) more than others.

*shrugs* I dunno.... it just seems a redundant arguement to define something in a program that refuses the restriction of definition.



Also just randomly:

I feel kind of stupid but I haven't seen anyone mention it and I thought it was a bit weird, but am I the only one who when they saw Touga's hair colour immediately thought of danger, I'm handsome and seem princely but beware, beware. Nanami as well, with the yellow she wears, it also reminds me of danger colours, like a lion (she is leo), or a bee, as if to say, I'm cute and sweet but beware, beware (it was just bad luck the kitten ended up with BOTH of them-it obviously didn't see the danger colours and run fast enough-I wonder if there is something in the colours of the kitten as well, black and white with blue eyes?? Hmm?? Anyone wanna give thoughts). I do love the colours in Utena, when I look at Anthy, I see her hair and think of royalty (purple) I see both danger and intensity when she's wearing her rose bride gown (red) her eyes (green) I consider feminine (Anthy IS feminity in all its corrupt, beautiful and submissive glory) and nature which goes with her being in the green house always planting flowers etc, later I also thought of envy because of her unable to be Dios's princess. At the end I love how she's wearing Utena's colours, its as if shes swapped roles with Utena and must go find her or even save her, Utena's colours are white and pink and Anhty is wearing both. Too sweet!



In the Nanami's egg episode. Someone said they were confused by Saionji's role. Frankly that whole episode stumps me and kudos for making me understand it better. Well in this episode Saionji is wearing Nanami's colours in that apron he's got, (that apron *shakes head* ) so he could be there for a reason, plus he reminds me much of a housewife in that scene, if the egg is symbolic of children, he could be saying you can't always hold onto your children, it's just one child and there's no reason to be neurotic, however its impossible to be that way if you love your children, and even he gets upset with he's one egg that burns. Can I also ask what was going on with the birds outside the window when Nanami was talking about preferring girls to boys to Touga??




I liked the Keiko explanations, Keiko is also supposed to be Libra, and it goes with her character well, she is the leader of air, an element which is supposed to be all about communicating, something she does for the group, and she is very obviously the leader of the group. Also Libra see everything as equal, everything has to be fair, Nanami's view points on others would drive a normal Libra round the bend, how can you everyone as lower than yourself??? To a Libra thats disgusting, and her words that its not fair and her demands to Nanami about how she is any different to her reflect this. Her hair also reminds me of scales, Libra's symbol. Also I just have to say, I think Keiko looks pretty good in her dueling outfit.

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#265 | Back to Top06-10-2007 04:52:06 PM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Questions:

Sorry I just had to point this out. But in Razara's analysis of the Juri/Shiori/Ruka eps, I instantly noticed in the pictures she posted that in one shot the curtains are blue, and in the other shot they are orange. Would someone have a go at deciphering what that might mean in the context of the scenes please?

The three coffins where Utena and her parents are, there's a cross over them. Has anyone got any ideas on that, is it supposed to be some kind of death and rebirth symbology or something??

And

Why is it Akio is more scared of pointy swords than contracting a deadly sexual diease. Seriously??


By now, we should already know what it feels like for someone to pull a sword out of their chest

Surprise me

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#266 | Back to Top06-11-2007 12:29:44 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Wow, that's a lot of posts. o_o

Anyway

Coco Melancholy wrote:

About Dios

Dios is naive. I don't really think he was deliberately taunting Utena to get that reaction out of her. Akio fits this scheme much better but he doesn't have a motivation to get that kind of reaction from Utena. Ultimately, I think this scene shows that nothing ever changes in the fairytale world. After all this time since Utena first met Dios, he is still a prince and yet his methods of dealing with people and life have remained the same. He only believes the illusion which he is a part of. On the other hand, by that time Utena has seen more sides of life and thus she finds it hard to accept the fact that nothing changes. She doesn't want to see mistakes being repeated over and over again like it has been happening for so long, which is why she takes action after she realises that she can't rely on her prince anymore.

I also agree she's matured quite a lot by that time, but that's just the beginning.  I think she never actually leaves the illusion behind until the very end. Her last line is what made me think so:

"I really...couldn't become a Prince. I'm sorry, Himemiya. Sorry for ending up just a make-believe Prince... Forgive me."

Would that mean she was still trying to be a prince when she opened Anthy's coffin? The fact that Utena appeared so defeated and sad in the end was because her ideals had let her down.  She did her best to be a prince and upon realising that even this wasn't enough to save Anthy made her finally let go of the illusion.

From Anthy's POV, things are much more complicated. It's hard to say whether she lets go of the illusions at the moment when she decides to reach out to Utena (hmm, I guess it's not very likely), but it definitely has great influence on her. Utena probably  works as the trigger to Anthy's changing. The moment Anthy leaves Ohtori is when she is leaving her old self behind and truly takes the revolution she was given by Utena.

We really really need to make a thread about the last two episodes. *waits patiently for the new gallery's opening* emot-biggrin

Coco Melancholy wrote:

The three coffins where Utena and her parents are, there's a cross over them. Has anyone got any ideas on that, is it supposed to be some kind of death and rebirth symbology or something??

The cross appeared from the flash of lightning, as far as I can recall. I've never really looked too deep into it and so for me it only shows that the place where the coffins are is, indeed, the church.  The much more important symbol in this scene is the coffin. ;D


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#267 | Back to Top06-11-2007 04:08:43 AM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Maarika wrote:

Wow, that's a lot of posts. o_o

Anyway

Coco Melancholy wrote:

About Dios

Dios is naive. I don't really think he was deliberately taunting Utena to get that reaction out of her. Akio fits this scheme much better but he doesn't have a motivation to get that kind of reaction from Utena. Ultimately, I think this scene shows that nothing ever changes in the fairytale world. After all this time since Utena first met Dios, he is still a prince and yet his methods of dealing with people and life have remained the same. He only believes the illusion which he is a part of. On the other hand, by that time Utena has seen more sides of life and thus she finds it hard to accept the fact that nothing changes. She doesn't want to see mistakes being repeated over and over again like it has been happening for so long, which is why she takes action after she realises that she can't rely on her prince anymore.

I also agree she's matured quite a lot by that time, but that's just the beginning.  I think she never actually leaves the illusion behind until the very end. Her last line is what made me think so:

"I really...couldn't become a Prince. I'm sorry, Himemiya. Sorry for ending up just a make-believe Prince... Forgive me."

I agree a lot on this, that the roles the fairytale characters stick to mean that nothing ever changes, even when others get hurt, and that although I believe she objects to sticking to those roles, she can't escape the grief of them failing her. A prince in the SKU sense wouldn't of saved Anthy (as Dios and Akio show) but Utena still tried to be Anthy's prince which in turn would mean she's not really fulfilling the role. She's being something more. A friend. Whether she realises it or not then, I'm sure she'll come round.


I always thought that since the cross covers the coffins like that, that its enhancing a meaning that may already be there, since when I think about crosses I think about death.



You mean theres not already anaylsis of the last two episodes!?

They make my head hurt.


Edit: Oh yeah, sorry about attacking the forum with the absurd number of posts. I wanted to reply to everything I read on those 11 pages (sorry not much of a contribution and no pictures.....yes I know I suck emot-mad I WILL say nothing next time, promise) so I kinda ended up posting it all her. Really sorry.

Last edited by Coco Melancholy (06-11-2007 04:12:18 AM)

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#268 | Back to Top06-11-2007 06:14:58 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Coco Melancholy wrote:

Oh yeah, sorry about attacking the forum with the absurd number of posts. I wanted to reply to everything I read on those 11 pages (sorry not much of a contribution and no pictures.....yes I know I suck emot-mad I WILL say nothing next time, promise) so I kinda ended up posting it all her. Really sorry.

You're sorry for your 1000+ words of high-caliber analysis?  Well, you ought to be; you gave me a headache! emot-gonk

No, seriously -- thank you!!!  This is what the forum was built for, you know.  The more thoughtful analysis, the better!  I especially liked the "water" angle you took for Juri.  I can't help thinking that if Ikuhara had wanted the zodiac to tie into the show, he'd have let us know what signs the characters were somewhere in the primary canon, but you're right about the oddness of constantly putting her fiery personality and fiery hair under a shower, by a lake, or in the rain.

I could almost believe that Dios didn't mean to taunt Utena in the last episode, but the way he rides off as Utena pushes the door open, radiating the "my work here is done" vibe, convinces me otherwise.

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#269 | Back to Top06-12-2007 12:16:39 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

satyreyes wrote:

I could almost believe that Dios didn't mean to taunt Utena in the last episode, but the way he rides off as Utena pushes the door open, radiating the "my work here is done" vibe, convinces me otherwise.

Hmmm, Dios was riding the carousel when he was talking to Utena. After that we see him with Akio and then we see him going back to the carousel. I suppose you can interpret it differently in case you interpret the carousel symbol differently. What does the carousel symbolise? The first thing that struck me about it was the fact that it was going round and round without stopping during the scene with Utena and Dios. It's probably just me, but I like to think of it as another hint to eternity, which is also an important theme in SKU. Maybe it refers to the fact that nothing changes in the fairy-tale world and therefore things keep happening over and over again without any change (such as Anthy taking the swords for the sake of the prince, the duelling game etc). Also, I think the carousel can be associated with children, which is why it could symbolise the childishness of the world where Akio/Dios, Anthy and Utena were trapped in.

And in the end when Dios rides off, it could represent the difference between the fairy-tale world and the one where Utena is/will be. Dios remains in his childish world while Utena decides to grow up (or rather do something to change things but in order to do so, she is forced to leave her childish illusions behind).


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#270 | Back to Top06-12-2007 03:10:49 AM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

satyreyes wrote:

You're sorry for your 1000+ words of high-caliber analysis?  Well, you ought to be; you gave me a headache!

No, seriously -- thank you!!!  This is what the forum was built for, you know.  The more thoughtful analysis, the better!

I think it's all more like, story-telling than anaylsis thinking about it now O.o I felt so bad that I came very close to deleting it all, and probably would have not to soon from now. I think I was chatting pretty much a bunch of rubbish......but I gave it go.....*head hits keyboard*


satyreyes wrote:

I could almost believe that Dios didn't mean to taunt Utena in the last episode, but the way he rides off as Utena pushes the door open, radiating the "my work here is done" vibe, convinces me otherwise.

I thought the same thing when I watched it! Even the way he walked away seemed to echo that thought. Its when I thought it over it that I came to what I was saying before. Maarika's much better at it though:

Maarika wrote:

I like to think of it as another hint to eternity, which is also an important theme in SKU. Maybe it refers to the fact that nothing changes in the fairy-tale world and therefore things keep happening over and over again without any change (such as Anthy taking the swords for the sake of the prince, the duelling game etc). Also, I think the carousel can be associated with children, which is why it could symbolise the childishness of the world where Akio/Dios, Anthy and Utena were trapped in.

And in the end when Dios rides off, it could represent the difference between the fairy-tale world and the one where Utena is/will be. Dios remains in his childish world while Utena decides to grow up (or rather do something to change things but in order to do so, she is forced to leave her childish illusions behind).

But as I said, I like the idea od Dios doing that. I think it'd be pretty cool. But as I said, I don't think it would be very prince like, cos thats pretty manipulative.


Edit: Oh yeah, I can't help myself when it comes to star signs. If the creator gives it to me, I will usually pick up on it. Especially if they throw a scorpio in there, I don't creators would use a scorpio character so lightly. Also....does nobody else think its funny that Akio's sign is the virgin. Because, that just made me giggle.

Last edited by Coco Melancholy (06-12-2007 03:15:04 AM)

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#271 | Back to Top06-13-2007 12:30:26 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Maarika wrote:

brian wrote:

One of the few that make sense are the balloons. They seem to symbolize childish hopes floating away.

They never made sense to me. And I forgot what context it was used in, I just remember it was in one of the earlier episodes. Only thing that made sense to me about it was the colour symbolism. So could you please elaborate on it a bit more? I'm curious.

Actually I have next to nothing to add. Green balloons for Saionji, etc. They appear a couple of times but I remember them best when Touga has just won the Rose Bride and seems close to final triumph.

Anyway I am really enjoying Coco Melanchloy's postings.

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#272 | Back to Top06-13-2007 01:08:22 PM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Oh yea did anyone answer the question earlier as to why at the end Akio suddenly found the compulsion to catch Utena?

brian wrote:

Anyway I am really enjoying Coco Melanchloy's postings.

*hand hovers over delete button* You're shitting me??

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#273 | Back to Top06-13-2007 08:46:39 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

Learn how to take a compliment! emot-smile I'll bet lots of other analysis geeks also enjoy them.

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#274 | Back to Top06-14-2007 12:01:13 PM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

brian wrote:

Learn how to take a compliment! emot-smile I'll bet lots of other analysis geeks also enjoy them.

I'm still practicing emot-keke;;; what are the....how do you say......oh thats right.

Thank you emot-biggrin

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#275 | Back to Top06-15-2007 07:43:52 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: Interpreting Symbolism in SKU

I like the most your Ruka-Juri-Shiory analyss emot-smile

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