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Gougai! Gougai!

Anime News Network asked Gio & Yasha to write an article about Utena, Empty Movement, and they totally called us superfans, omg. Think of it as a belated Valentine's to Utena, its fandom, and the excellent friendships we've made along the way. 20 Years of Utena Fandom with the Ultimate Superfans!!!

#1 | Back to Top02-15-2017 04:07:29 PM

purplepolecat
Atlantean Singer
From: Vancouver, B.C.
Registered: 03-26-2007
Posts: 570

Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Holy crap you guys!
Chu...


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#2 | Back to Top02-15-2017 05:35:14 PM

HonorableShadow
Cow Bellhop
From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 454
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Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

I read that earlier this morning! Really cool article. emot-biggrin


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#3 | Back to Top02-15-2017 07:31:49 PM

Imaginary Bad Bug
Revolutionary
From: Connecticut, USA
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2168
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Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Crawling out of my hibernation on these forums to congratulate Gio and Yasha on keeping the pop tart burning for all these years!  I remember some of those front page layouts, too! I don't read ANN anymore, but for your piece, I made an exception. Thanks for posting it, purplepolecat!

poptartpoptartpoptart


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#4 | Back to Top02-15-2017 08:51:10 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1169
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Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

emot-aaaemot-aaaemot-aaa Wow! emot-aaaemot-aaaemot-aaa How cool is this?!

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#5 | Back to Top02-15-2017 09:16:07 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8585
Website

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Well hell! I went to post this on the forum as a shameless plug and it's already here, haha. I love you guys. emot-smile

It was really flattering to be asked to write an article with Yasha for a site that's been a staple in the anime community since before I joined it. Literally my entire adult life has had SKU in it, and I sometimes forget that I've kinda stuck myself in the world with it. (And that anyone cared to notice!) I'm not a creative person by nature, I only ever flirted with other websites, and I'm generally not a superfan kind of geek. I don't even have another fandom I follow. (I briefly dabbled in the Star Trek subreddit but holy crap what a toxic place to have a vagina.) I'm not a huge social beast either! This site, this forum, and the longevity of both are flukes for me, born out of a love for the material and the fanbase it draws. Many of my best memories involve SKU, of how it felt to watch the first time on very overcopied fansubs, with horrible image quality like I was watching the snowy porn channel feeds at hotels without paying for them. This forum, RoseCons, and the friends I've made here. The whole waifu thing. It's suffused and colored the experience of my life in such major and minor ways I can't even begin to wonder how my life would look without it.

I no longer sit and contemplate it all day, and it's been a while since I watched an episode from beginning to end. And yet every day, at some point, I'll make a passing gag about it, or think something like, 'Ugh that's such a Touga thing to say.' when someone's spouting BS. It's really quite ridiculous.

We went for something a little less immature and wanky as this post, haha. I'm kinda shocked how fast people found it, or at least figured it'd get breezed over and not really noted given the psychotic amount of content that goes up on ANN. (Which is only a couple years older than this site, though I felt when I first started watching anime like it'd been there at the dawn of time...) So yeah. poptart

PS ack they added a shot of LLOM and I noticed an aligning error in the images OMRFGHKJWERGFJSNDKVGI


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#6 | Back to Top02-15-2017 11:59:51 PM

Aelanie
Pathtracer
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 359

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Congrats on the article, it was truly excellent. A perfect overview and retrospective on Utena and how its fandom has changed over the years. Like Bad Bug, I don't bother with ANN much anymore. I used to visit regularly, until I realized that a lot of the site's content is middle-aged men complaining that anime isn't as manly as it used to be. Imagine my surprise when I trip over the tab I still keep open of it and find that article. Anyway, good work, and thank you for your insights.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 12:00:25 AM)

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#7 | Back to Top02-16-2017 12:09:35 AM

SaigonAlice
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 09-13-2016
Posts: 40

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Aelanie wrote:

I used to visit regularly, until I realized that a lot of the site's content is middle-aged men complaining that anime isn't as manly as it used to be.

Wait, what? emot-aaa
...Please elaborate.

Anyway that was a really neat article - we do need to stress the importance of having discussions with people of common interest.


Thân em như quả mít trên cây,
Vỏ nó sù sì, múi nó dày.
Quân tử có yêu thì đóng cọc,
Xin đừng mân mó nhựa ra tay. - Hồ Xuân Hương

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#8 | Back to Top02-16-2017 01:07:42 AM

Aelanie
Pathtracer
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 359

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

I'd rather not, as this isn't the place for it. I will say that several prominent members of the editorial staff are vocal about their preference for the rougher, edgier pre-millenial anime they were raised on - and for condemning anything with too much moe as garbage, especially in their seasonal "preview guides". I remember in particular how Madoka Magica was described initially as "cutesy-poo" tripe and dismissed, only for the tune to change later once Madoka's dark themes were made blatant. The situation is the same a lot of times on the ANNCast, with endless repetitive grumbling about how terrible anime is today and how much better it was in the Gundam/Cowboy Bebop/Evangelion past.

If that's not your perception that's fine, but it is mine.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 01:22:09 AM)

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#9 | Back to Top02-16-2017 01:23:37 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8585
Website

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Common interest, and different opinion. The unpopular opinions thread is proof of that. emot-wink

As for ANN, it doesn't seem all the different than I remember it being years ago, just a lot larger in scale and better coded...but then, that's true of all of us old timers. I've got mad respect at this point for anyone who has stuck to their guns this long, although being a staffed or larger operation no doubt helps. It's honestly bothered me a lot the last couple years how few websites there are compared to when we started. Which isn't to say that social media isn't awesome and hasn't totally changed the landscape, but there was a creativity necessary in building from scratch that I think we miss out on a lot now, as we become more and more beholden to the format of the site we use to present our content.

It kind of makes me laugh to think EM has some sort of high status in the fandom, or any status at all, given that outside practical resources and the analysis section, the content is pretty militantly shit at being representative of the fanbase. There's an Akio shrine, and for two married women, Yasha and I suck at feeling like Utena and or Anthy relate to us at all. I've learned to accept that despite being a 'superfan' (don't worry it isn't going to my head!) I'm on the whole a terrible flagbearer for the community at large, and always have been. I wonder if the fandom at large wouldn't have preferred Empty Movement be run by an Utena fan, or a Juri fan, when statistically the odds favored them. emot-biggrin

Aelanie, I have to admit I'm one of those crabby asshole people that misses the good old days so you just described me, haha. emot-redface


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#10 | Back to Top02-16-2017 01:41:53 AM

Aelanie
Pathtracer
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 359

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Aelanie, I have to admit I'm one of those crabby asshole people that misses the good old days so you just described me, haha.

Don't mistake me, I'm also of that same generation, and I actually agree that - in some ways - anime today can be too unambitious, too commercial, and so on. But that is far from being the whole story about how anime has changed over the years, and in any case, you and I don't spend time and effort endlessly repackaging those parade-raining feelings into monetized "content".

As for Utena and Anthy representing you, it's not as though they can carry the torch for all women-loving women. My best friend, also a lesbian, doesn't even like Utena (the franchise) at all, though she has watched it with me and has been familiar with it for many years. For her, the primeval yuri couple to which she eternally returns is Chikane and Himeko from Kannazuki no Miko. For many other women, it's Haruka and Michiru in Sailor Moon. Everybody has the characters that speak to them most.

Your disregard of Juri is heresy though.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 01:47:23 AM)

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#11 | Back to Top02-16-2017 01:53:25 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8585
Website

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Fair enough! I think a lot of the difference isn't so much that the amount or value of content changed, but that there are no gatekeepers now. An anime had to really inspire to get someone to manually fansub it in the 90s, and few came across the border without first being vetted in that way. We see all of it now, without devotion or word of mouth to propel it.

I didn't mean to say Utena and Anthy should be carrying that torch, sorry. I meant it more in the sense of it being ironic that though they carry the torch for many, they don't carry it for us, when arguably it would make a lot of sense for a married couple prominent in the fandom to feel that way. But Yasha and I have always sucked really hard at this stuff, and frankly have never consistently gotten along with the LGBTQ community. That might be why frankly I've never felt any allegiance at all to any yuri/lesbian pairing anywhere, and find Juri so...well you know. emot-frown

Really, if any pairing 'speaks' to us, it's probably Touga and Saionji. And we got married.

....but was that really such a good idea? school-devil


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#12 | Back to Top02-16-2017 01:58:23 AM

SaigonAlice
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 09-13-2016
Posts: 40

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

We need more statistical abnormalities and just plain weirdoes like you Gio. emot-tongue Otherwise the fandom isn't any fun.

And goodness knows that RGU itself isn't normal.

Last edited by SaigonAlice (02-16-2017 01:59:39 AM)


Thân em như quả mít trên cây,
Vỏ nó sù sì, múi nó dày.
Quân tử có yêu thì đóng cọc,
Xin đừng mân mó nhựa ra tay. - Hồ Xuân Hương

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#13 | Back to Top02-16-2017 02:16:38 AM

Aelanie
Pathtracer
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 359

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Giovanna wrote:

That might be why frankly I've never felt any allegiance at all to any yuri/lesbian pairing anywhere, and find Juri so...well you know. emot-frown

Really, if any pairing 'speaks' to us, it's probably Touga and Saionji.

You're not alone. There are in fact a significant number of lesbian women who identify strongly with yaoi, due to it being less concerned with stereotypical female gender role/presentation depictions, and in fact some are known yaoi manga artists. My best friend is also a fan of yaoi as well, though yuri is still her chief interest.

The real issue, of course, is that you simply haven't consumed enough yuri yet. Please report to  Chu... for re-education. school-freud

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#14 | Back to Top02-16-2017 02:40:34 AM

SaigonAlice
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 09-13-2016
Posts: 40

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Aelanie wrote:

You're not alone. There are in fact a significant number of lesbian women who identify strongly with yaoi, due to it being less concerned with stereotypical female gender role/presentation depictions, and in fact some are known yaoi manga artists. My best friend is also a fan of yaoi as well, though yuri is still her chief interest.

That, and also I think they suffer from a bit of internalised homophobia (Hear me out).

Lesbian yaoi fans, or "Yaoisbians" for short,  want to see gay representation but they don't want to see themselves in it per say. They wanna see gay characters being overtly gay and in love, but don't want to face their own gayness (which itself they find abhorrent).

I say this because as a Gay guy I gravitate to f/f ships but not so much m/m ships since I might identify with them too much. I see myself in their shoes doing the same stupid mistakes as a gay guy that I did (E.g. falling for a straight guy). I want representation and be able to relate to characters on things, but in a controlled way. Not in a way that it's so eerily similar to my life and the times I've really effed it up.

I really hope I'm not projecting or anything and apologises in advance if this doesn't makes senes....Lol.

EDIT: Also I think it should be pointed out that Japanese gay men (and I suppose mainstream macho gay culture) aren't very interested in yaoi...at all. They tend to gravitate to Bara.

And hey, while we're on the topic of alternative but strangely popular outlets for LGBT, aside from the established mainstream, then I've heard that the furry community is one such outlet. Here's a little essay on the matter:  Chu...

Last edited by SaigonAlice (02-16-2017 03:17:32 AM)


Thân em như quả mít trên cây,
Vỏ nó sù sì, múi nó dày.
Quân tử có yêu thì đóng cọc,
Xin đừng mân mó nhựa ra tay. - Hồ Xuân Hương

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#15 | Back to Top02-16-2017 07:43:56 AM

malna
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Poland
Registered: 10-03-2011
Posts: 196

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Giovanna wrote:

Really, if any pairing 'speaks' to us, it's probably Touga and Saionji. And we got married.

....but was that really such a good idea? school-devil

lol Kashira, kashira...

Cool article! Congrats. I am so glad to be a teeny-tiny part of IRG forum myself. I wouldn't be able to put my finger on it but I do feel that, despite all differences, there is something unique and specific about people that loiter around here. Something that makes me feel comfortable and at ease, and that's rare for me.


a lot of hope in one man tent

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#16 | Back to Top02-16-2017 09:07:01 AM

zeedikay
Ballgoer
Registered: 02-22-2014
Posts: 141

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Giovanna wrote:

It kind of makes me laugh to think EM has some sort of high status in the fandom, or any status at all, given that outside practical resources and the analysis section, the content is pretty militantly shit at being representative of the fanbase. There's an Akio shrine, and for two married women, Yasha and I suck at feeling like Utena and or Anthy relate to us at all. I've learned to accept that despite being a 'superfan' (don't worry it isn't going to my head!) I'm on the whole a terrible flagbearer for the community at large, and always have been. I wonder if the fandom at large wouldn't have preferred Empty Movement be run by an Utena fan, or a Juri fan, when statistically the odds favored them. emot-biggrin

Aelanie, I have to admit I'm one of those crabby asshole people that misses the good old days so you just described me, haha. emot-redface

Not to sound sycophantic, but this forum is honestly great! Having a more practical site as a base for a fandom allows for a greater range of options for others to expand on, and play with. Sort of a neutral zone if you would, even if explaining it might get a bit more complicated and show off some contradictions. It's acted as a hub for a bunch of great things, like several translation projects, a ton of great analytical threads, and not to mention the wealth of info you guys managed to gather on the main site.
And this is coming from one of those "danged kids" themselves. Tumblr has the benefit of having live-reactions in a mesh of information which does help with getting a overview of a zeitgeist, but it does end up getting a bit... clique-y at times. Ever since I was little, I've never really gotten comfortable enough to engage deeply within fandom other than being an observer, even when I was obsessed with something. Even if this wasn't the first series-specfic forum I've been a part of, I'm proud to say it's been a blast to be a part of. And honestly, I lean more towards being a Nanami fan myself if anything if it makes you feel a bit better.

So in conclusion, congrats on the article! Here's to another twenty plus years!

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#17 | Back to Top02-16-2017 01:19:39 PM

Arale
Rose Bride
From: collective human consciousness
Registered: 12-07-2014
Posts: 113
Website

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Aelanie wrote:

I'd rather not, as this isn't the place for it. I will say that several prominent members of the editorial staff are vocal about their preference for the rougher, edgier pre-millenial anime they were raised on - and for condemning anything with too much moe as garbage, especially in their seasonal "preview guides".

I mean, is moe the right word to use here? Because when I think moe I don't think feminine, I think the fetishization of innocence by......... middle-aged men. Sailor Moon isn't moe, but it's "girly"; K-On and Love Live! are moe.


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#18 | Back to Top02-16-2017 04:29:48 PM

Aelanie
Pathtracer
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 359

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

What is and is not moe, and exactly what that term means, is a perennial and heated debate, so I won't get into that here. But I use it in the sense of "characters being presented in a way that makes them endearing to the audience". Sailor Moon certainly has moe elements in its moments where the characters are explored and their personalities come out in ways that make us like the characters more, care about them more. This does not have to include fetishization , nor are "middle-aged men" the only ones who enjoy likable and cute characters, needless to say. You are using the term in a more narrow and stereotypical sense than I am.

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#19 | Back to Top02-16-2017 05:20:23 PM

purplepolecat
Atlantean Singer
From: Vancouver, B.C.
Registered: 03-26-2007
Posts: 570

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Zac Bertschy, the executive editor of ANN, recently married his long time partner and co-worker Jacob, a trans man who came out about a year ago. Both of them are big SKU fans and talk it up at every opportunity. (I'm not saying these things are connected, but it's interesting.)

I don't agree with all the opinions expressed on ANN, but their coverage of the new anime streaming firehose is a very useful resource.


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#20 | Back to Top02-16-2017 05:29:48 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8585
Website

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Aelanie wrote:

lesbian women

But I'm bisexual! The degree to which that changes everything about how I engage or don't with LGBTQ content can't be overstated. Also I don't read Touga and Saionji as a yaoi pairing. etc-saiowank Honestly, my interpretation of the show confirms three LGBTQ relationships explicitly: Akio/Touga, Mikage/Mamiya, and Juri/Her Crushed Dreams. Juri's solitude is used to safely dodge having to actually depict the relationship, and the other two are...not very flattering endorsements of male sexuality there, Ikuhara. emot-rolleyes

Aelanie wrote:

The real issue, of course, is that you simply haven't consumed enough yuri yet. Please report to  Chu... for re-education. school-freud

I'll likely regret saying this, and I hope it's evident that I don't mean to be insulting...but I personally just can't do yuri. Or yaoi. I've never been motivated to engage in a piece of media primarily because of the LGBTQ status of its characters, and yuri and yaoi presence has never made me care more about a story. Maybe because I'm bisexual, but I often find yuri and yaoi represent me a lot less than most straight representations of relationships and sex do, in part because I'm being told it represents me and I feel like that robs me of agency in the matter. I've asked myself if this is internalized homophobic behavior, as I agree with Saigon that it certainly can be... but I don't think so. I don't seem to have any reaction, positive or negative, to lesbian or homosexual depictions that I don't have equally to heterosexual ones. I don't seem to really care.

I did look at the thread though! I honestly haven't seen more than a few episodes of any one of these, my biggest effort being biting into Simoun. It's terrible to judge based on something you didn't finish, but there it is--they felt very manipulative on the point that they're yuri, which is the goal obviously, but as a genre that wasn't engaging me long enough to see them pass through their reliance on that. The same thing keeps me away from most mecha anime, in that mecha being present doesn't establish a baseline interest, so it's nothing against yuri that I don't hold against several other genres of things. But unless I missed them, Rose of Versailles and Brother, Dear Brother aren't there? Are they not considered yuri anime? Because those were going to be my counter-argument to my own very pigheaded asshole-sounding opinion here. emot-redface

I'm pretty sure as a rule you and I have totally opposing interests in everything outside SKU, though. emot-wink Your description of Shitsurakuen in the thread piqued my interest when uh, you plainly meant the description to be a deterrent. Fucked up depictions of unhealthy sexuality and gender dynamics? If that's a genre, it's definitely my favorite. But that thing sounds like an insulting or amazing degree of SKU ripoff...

malna wrote:

I wouldn't be able to put my finger on it but I do feel that, despite all differences, there is something unique and specific about people that loiter around here. Something that makes me feel comfortable and at ease, and that's rare for me.

I think some of it is that a lot of us have been here long enough to have gotten into all the SKU arguments? It's like a huge messed up mass marriage. Also forums are a very different format for social media, in that they often depart quickly from the idea of an original poster and don't encourage brevity. You can be as verbose as you like and will probably be rewarded for it!

zeedikay wrote:

Tumblr has the benefit of having live-reactions in a mesh of information which does help with getting a overview of a zeitgeist, but it does end up getting a bit... clique-y at times.

That's definitely a big factor. The forum is frankly a smaller population too, so there's an intimacy in play and probably not enough critical mass for cliques, per say. Although there were once! It was broken down more into character preference, though...Tumblr seems to break down cliques based on degrees and forms of social justice interpretations of the story.

zeedikay wrote:

And honestly, I lean more towards being a Nanami fan myself if anything if it makes you feel a bit better.

what Nanami owns! Every subsequent viewing makes me like her more and more. She's a deeply flawed fool of a girl with insight dangerous enough that she tries to bury it. I can relate to wanting blur your own vision to prevent having to deal with what you see. Like her brother, she's insightful enough to direct others to do her bidding, but the ease with which this happens is kind of disappointing in and of itself. She won't stand to lose her goon squad, but there's definitely a part of her that's isolated by her intelligence and resents even her 'friends' for that.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#21 | Back to Top02-16-2017 06:22:29 PM

Arale
Rose Bride
From: collective human consciousness
Registered: 12-07-2014
Posts: 113
Website

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Aelanie wrote:

Sailor Moon certainly has moe elements in its moments where the characters are explored and their personalities come out in ways that make us like the characters more, care about them more.

Is that not just "characterization"?

When I think of two-decade-old anime I don't think of masculinity at all, I think of stuff like Perfect Blue, Lain and of course Utena. Stuff that represented femininity as psychological.

There may be a lot of shows with cute girls in them now, but all those girls care about is performance, and that leads down a dark road in Japan.


im a shadow play girl irl

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#22 | Back to Top02-16-2017 06:30:50 PM

Aelanie
Pathtracer
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 359

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

With regard to Simoun...listen. The concept that "you have to finish it to really understand/appreciate it" is overapplied on a lot of media. In many cases, and very often with anime, that is not the case. I don't make a habit of saying that about anything.

But Simoun is such a case. Simoun, more than possibly any anime I've ever seen, is a carefully plotted build-up to the release of its full power and meaning in the finale. Everything that happens, everything that the characters feel and experience, leads into the final episode, "Kanojo-tachi no Shouzou", The Portrait of Those Girls.

And you will find what you are looking for in Simoun. It is rife with characters struggling with uncomfortable relationships and their gender identities. I dearly hope one day you will see it through.

(You will not find what you are looking for, or anything of value whatsoever, in Shitsurakuen. Please don't mistake my description as implying it has any form of depth, complexity or nuance. It is pure garbage with no self-awareness about what it is presenting, and presenting badly at that. Nevermind the content, even the narrative mechanics of the manga are horrendous. It is, simply, a thing that should never have existed.)

Anyway, it sounds like a standard case of Hype Aversion. As a contrarian, I also suffer from this. The assertions that "this is amazing,  it'll totally speak to you/you'll relate to it/etc." create a negative feeling that causes us to be less inclined to partake of that thing. But I will also be the first to admit, that sometimes this can cause you to miss out on stuff that really is great and enjoyable. The only way to really know is just to dive in.

Rose of Versailles I do not call yuri, though certainly an important and influential precursor. Onii-sama e is...a complicated and mixed-results work that is its own unique thing, one that I would be hesitant to recommend to anyone without intimate knowledge of their preferences.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 06:45:13 PM)

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#23 | Back to Top02-16-2017 06:58:40 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8585
Website

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Yeah RoV not being considered yuri makes sense. And now that you mention it I wouldn't suggest BDB to anyone either unless I knew them well. It's like old anime lesbian Downton Abbey in like, a bad way?? But Ikuhara's assertion that it wasn't an influence on SKU is horseshit of the first degree. As for Simoun, maybe, someday, I'll try it again.

I know what you mean about contrarianism. I long punished Touga for his fanbase, and I think the critical mass that made me stop watching anime was an exhaustion with trying to keep up with recommendations that were primarily genre-based without knowing me very well. I asked Yasha about this just now and we finally narrowed it down to the last on-target recommendation of anything to me was the anime Colorful and the game Bayonetta. So I think my friends just never suggest stuff, haha.

So I uh, looked up that manga. Dear sweet lord in heaven is it a distillation of pure shit and terrible ripping off. It's glorious and I'm kind of wanting to do a let's read or something? Is this what it feels like when people enjoy The Rocky Horror Picture Show???


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#24 | Back to Top02-16-2017 07:22:21 PM

SaigonAlice
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 09-13-2016
Posts: 40

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

Giovanna wrote:

I'll likely regret saying this, and I hope it's evident that I don't mean to be insulting...but I personally just can't do yuri. Or yaoi. I've never been motivated to engage in a piece of media primarily because of the LGBTQ status of its characters, and yuri and yaoi presence has never made me care more about a story. Maybe because I'm bisexual, but I often find yuri and yaoi represent me a lot less than most straight representations of relationships and sex do, in part because I'm being told it represents me and I feel like that robs me of agency in the matter. I've asked myself if this is internalized homophobic behavior, as I agree with Saigon that it certainly can be... but I don't think so. I don't seem to have any reaction, positive or negative, to lesbian or homosexual depictions that I don't have equally to heterosexual ones. I don't seem to really care.

Aelanie's only giving you a nudge but honestly, you do you. There's no right or wrong way to be LGBT, so long as you're not hurting anyone in the process. emot-wink

And yknow, to be perfectly fair with you, yaoi and yuri are awful outlets for LGBT. Maybe once upon a time they made for good representation, like the classics Aelanie mentioned, but nowadays they're...how should I put it...gratuitous and fetishistic? They're written for the horny heterosexual gaze in mind.

Which is why I consider shows like Yuri!!! on Ice which feature healthy M/M relationships as not being yaoi, really, since it's so divorced from the usual yaoi tropes.

purplepolecat wrote:

Zac Bertschy, the executive editor of ANN, recently married his long time partner and co-worker Jacob, a trans man who came out about a year ago. Both of them are big SKU fans and talk it up at every opportunity. (I'm not saying these things are connected, but it's interesting.)

I don't agree with all the opinions expressed on ANN, but their coverage of the new anime streaming firehose is a very useful resource.

D'awwww etc-love

I admit, ANN was kind of just there for me. It existed as a place for general Anime discussion but didn't catch me as the place where better and more in depth discussions could be found. It was your typical casual anime fan hangout.  I could be wrong though.

Last edited by SaigonAlice (02-16-2017 07:25:07 PM)


Thân em như quả mít trên cây,
Vỏ nó sù sì, múi nó dày.
Quân tử có yêu thì đóng cọc,
Xin đừng mân mó nhựa ra tay. - Hồ Xuân Hương

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#25 | Back to Top02-16-2017 07:31:41 PM

Aelanie
Pathtracer
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 359

Re: Gio & Yasha piece on AnimeNewsNetwork

And yknow, to be perfectly fair with you, yaoi and yuri are awful outlets for LGBT. Maybe once upon a time they made for good representation, like the classics Aelanie mentioned, but nowadays they're...how should I put it...gratuitous and fetishistic? They're written for the horny heterosexual gaze in mind.

Actually no, you are not being fair, or informed, at all. You frankly don't know anything about the yuri genre as a whole if you think that. The genesis of yuri was in female-aimed anime and manga, and the demographic readership of yuri in Japan remains primarily female. There are many female manga artists, some of them out lesbians or bisexuals themselves, who produce excellent and tasteful works of female/female romance, some of which I recommend in that thread I linked earlier. Fetishistic works exist, but so does plenty of substance. The genre is not one or another, it is both: an ever-widening and deepening corpus of work with different types of stories for different types of audiences looking for different things, and it is possible to enjoy a spectrum of such works without falling into people's glibly rehashed fan stereotypes. I personally enjoy both thoughtful, well-written romance and cheerfully unambitious erotica at times, and I - and my best friend - are far from being "horny heterosexuals".

Giovanna wrote:

It's glorious and I'm kind of wanting to do a let's read or something?

Please don't. The intentional infliction of that manga upon pristine human minds is something that I could only consider an atrocity.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 07:51:10 PM)

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