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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top08-14-2015 11:58:06 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

Interesting. It's been a while since I was on 8chan, and I decided to go on /cow/ to see how Nick Bate's trial is coming along. I tried to bring up 8chan on a search and ended up with a news article saying, 8chan-hosted content disappears from Google searches. Down the bottom is a statement along the lines of, "Suspected child abuse content has been removed from this page." Interesting. And also disturbing. 8chan appears also to be invisible to Yahoo, but appears on Bing. Links to 7chan and 4chan remain.

I find this disturbing, to say the least. Child pornography does appear on all the chans from time to time, granted, but to say that a massive, massive site like 8chan consists of nothing but CP and blocking the entire website is disturbing to say the least. Is it censorship? Absolutely, positively, definitely. And it's terrifying for the future of the web and for freedom of information. It's bad enough that the freedom of information faces continuous threats from every government in every country of the world. First Google effectively eliminates privacy by demanding your phone number and linking your online accounts with your offline life, and now it's controlling what you can see and where you go. Actually, it's been doing the last one almost from the beginning, but never in such a brutal 'fuck you I don't care if it's a legal website you can only see what I want you to you vermin' manner. Think about it: Google owns your entire life. Not only to they know who you are and where you live, they have billions of private documents and know exactly what you're doing whenever you so much as look as a computer. They even have pictures of your house taken from just a few metres away. These fuckers own us. They lobby governments all over the world and monitor you in every way you could think of, plus a few that you haven't.

                                                                  http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cXFFtCgGZ3M/Uf69YO5SbII/AAAAAAAAAQg/WQTliZ2ZvDE/s1600/WhatGoogleKnows.jpg

Google is downright terrifying. And the idea of it eventually consuming and controlling just about every of server of any size in the world, up to and including even the tiny personal ones in someone's garden shed as a hobby, seems like less of a paranoid fantasy and more of a depressing inevitability. Big Brother is watching you, and he's not from the government. He's a massive multinational private corporation that that even entire world governments bow down to. He absolutely should be scaring people a lot more than he actually does. And he is not friendly, and is absolutely not your friend.

                                                                                                                                               https://eawrap.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/google-big-brother3.png?w=645

The chans are some of the biggest free websites in the world, open to anyone who can access the web. And if these massive anonymous depositories of information fall, then it's seriously doubtful that there's much else that'll come close to that level of freedom of information.

Orwell was right all along.

Last edited by crystalwren (08-15-2015 12:54:04 AM)

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#2 | Back to Top08-18-2015 12:22:16 AM

Arale
Ballgoer
From: collective human consciousness
Registered: 12-07-2014
Posts: 145
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

Google is extremely powerful, but it censoring an edgelord site is not really the biggest problem. (This information may not be 100 percent accurate but my point is what matters, not the minutiae) 8chan has some boards specifically for child pornography (or at least, 'technically legal' stuff) and it doesn't get removed by the owner/mods/whatever (i dont actually know my 8chan hierarchy, and i dont care to know) because it won't get them in trouble (again, 'technically legal') and in their insane dedication to ""free speech""

when you make the conscious decision to allow that kind of thing, yknow, it is not a loss to lose links to that website on what is widely known to already be a non-perfect search engine. its not like its hard to find the website otherwise

indeed, there's tons of other sites hidden from google (some dubiously legal anime watching sites) and stuff that just can't be found by it in the first place (deep web stuff). To be true here, I don't think google should be removing anything from their results, BUT 8chan is far from the biggest problem. But to be fair most of your post did indeed talk about the other ways google owns masses of information. What's especially potent about google is that they are mostly competent, which is more than you can say for other big companies like Microsoft, who are evil but pathetic


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#3 | Back to Top08-18-2015 08:59:13 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

I've seen these facts before, and all I have to counter with is that google thinks I'm a dude.

No, really. Based on my searches and the things I like, google thinks I'm a dude.

So, uhh... there's a little refining to do there before they become skynet (GOOGLE IS SKYNET).


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#4 | Back to Top08-18-2015 09:07:07 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

Google correctly figured out that I'm a white guy in my late 20's, but based on that evidence alone it assumes that I hate women.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#5 | Back to Top08-18-2015 09:25:22 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

Ugh, that's terrible!


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#6 | Back to Top08-18-2015 11:22:07 AM

Leirr ✰
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Germany
Registered: 04-24-2014
Posts: 19

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

^Wow, where can I read such conclusions? This sounds hillarious.

Arale pretty much said what I had on my mind to. I was surprised 8chan showed-up on google tbh.

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#7 | Back to Top08-18-2015 02:36:42 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

In my case, it's something I was able to intuit - if I'm on Youtube, I regularly get angry anti-feminist videos showing up in my "recommended viewing" list even though I've never watched any anti-feminist videos on Youtube. I've watched a handful of feminist videos, some of which I liked and some of which I didn't. But the first time an anti-Anita Sarkeesian video showed up in my recommended viewing list, I'd never even been to Reddit.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#8 | Back to Top08-19-2015 12:05:29 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

Yasha wrote:

I've seen these facts before, and all I have to counter with is that google thinks I'm a dude.

No, really. Based on my searches and the things I like, google thinks I'm a dude.

Me, too.

I've often wondered...if I express a deep interest in women's shoes via search, what will Google decide?


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#9 | Back to Top08-19-2015 06:38:51 AM

Honey Bear
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
From: England
Registered: 08-01-2011
Posts: 173
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

I wonder how google figures out your gender... has it figured out search criteria that men and women regularly look for and decides from that?

Google seems to know I'm a woman considering the amount of times I've got advertisements about sanitary product. Like, seriously, you think I'm going to order kotex from the internet?

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#10 | Back to Top08-19-2015 08:06:21 AM

Enea
Juri Jeerer
From: Poland
Registered: 04-25-2015
Posts: 45

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

In my case Google is incredibly wrong - in its opinion I'm a young man, rap and cannabis lover (constant advertises showing appropriate merchandise), constantly playing Minecraft. For a few months I've encountered several vasectomy ads. emot-rolleyes I'm a woman, hate rap (or more likely so called "rap culture", especially in Poland), never-ever played Minecraft and had absolutely no contact with any drugs.
My search history is mostly anime/cartoons online sites, few forums, sometimes various newspappers' articles, a bit of facebook. Their ads make no sense...

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#11 | Back to Top08-19-2015 09:35:59 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

I'm pretty much with wren here.  And the insidious thing about Corporate 1984, as opposed to Government 1984, is that there are usually ways for a few determined individuals to hold government accountable.  In America we have certain rights against the government -- rights against unreasonable searches, for example.  If the government indexes your hard drive or taps your phone without a warrant, you can sue them.  You might not know they're doing this, of course, but eventually it will come out, maybe because of an Edward Snowden.  And once a court finds that the government is violating people's civil liberties, the government has to knock it off.

None of that is true about Google.  Google is limited only by the user agreements it has with you, the ones we all click through without reading.  When Chrome launched, its license agreement contained a clause giving Google the right to publicly display and distribute your emails, your credit card numbers, and anything else you "submitted, posted, or displayed" using Chrome.  This was probably an honest mistake; they either drafted the agreement very poorly (which is scary) or copy-pasted a different agreement without reading it (which is both scary and ironic).  Once this was pointed out, they removed it.  But many thousands had already downloaded Chrome and clicked Accept, and I would have been one of them if I'd been an early adopter of Chrome, because I don't read EULAs either.  If Google (or any other software company) puts something abusive in its EULA and exploits it, then they've got us.  A few determined individuals can't force them to change their policy, because they're not doing anything illegal.  Oh, and don't forget the clause that says they can change the agreement at any time without notice, and your continued use of the product constitutes assent to the change.

I'm not overly concerned with Google's decision to nix links to 8chan, assuming they continue to do that.  Google is an information company.  They make money by getting and providing information.  They won't blacklist the Internet willy-nilly, because that reduces how much information they can get and provide.  If they've removed 8chan search results, it's because they are worried about being liable for linking users to extremely illegal content, not because of moral disapproval.  Google doesn't have morals.  If they start taking down links to sites that are critical of Google, that is the moment when I'll stop using their products.

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#12 | Back to Top08-19-2015 12:44:19 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

satyreyes wrote:

Google is limited only by the user agreements it has with you, the ones we all click through without reading.

[...]

If Google (or any other software company) puts something abusive in its EULA and exploits it, then they've got us.  A few determined individuals can't force them to change their policy, because they're not doing anything illegal.  Oh, and don't forget the clause that says they can change the agreement at any time without notice, and your continued use of the product constitutes assent to the change.

This isn't completely true. While EULAs use legal speak and are (presumably) written by people who know the laws well, they aren't law themselves. Nor are they exempt from being disputed in court. The fact that "no one" reads through these documents actually hurts the company when it comes to trying to legally enforce their contracts, it can be seen as unreasonable for a customer to be able to understand and comply with the conditions presented. This is probably why certain companies have tried to streamline their EULAs and make them easier for anyone to understand.

Just because Google can put out a new EULA for Chrome and hide "If you use this product, you agree to pay X dollars monthly" (and be 'covered' by having people click the new agreement the first time they restart the browser) doesn't mean they'd be untouchable from a legal standpoint. Obviously they wouldn't do this, because it's a very short term strategy which will lose them more business in the long run, and the changes they do make to the EULA wouldn't be so blatant, but in theory there are still laws in place which protect customers from corporations.

On the subject of the original post, there seem to be two points. Point one is that Google is censoring the internet, which I agree is bad. Point two is that Google is turning the internet into a police state by keeping records of everything about everyone. I agree that's bad as well... but you don't need Google. No one has to use Google's products. Google has information about you because you've given it to them freely. So importantly, if that bothers you then stop using Chrome, stop using Google's search engine. If it really bothers you, encourage other people to stop as well.

Here's a search engine which doesn't record your IP and search queries: startpage.com


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#13 | Back to Top08-19-2015 01:26:35 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

Ragnarok wrote:

This isn't completely true. While EULAs use legal speak and are (presumably) written by people who know the laws well, they aren't law themselves. Nor are they exempt from being disputed in court. The fact that "no one" reads through these documents actually hurts the company when it comes to trying to legally enforce their contracts, it can be seen as unreasonable for a customer to be able to understand and comply with the conditions presented.

You're right that a contract is not the word of God -- but it is the next best thing.  Fifty Shades of Grey notwithstanding, if you sign a contract where you agree to be someone's slave, that contract is not enforceable; there are things you just can't barter away.  But those things are usually fundamental civil rights protections, and other cases where the whole point of a law is subverted by the contract -- for instance, you can't sign an enforceable contract where you agree to be paid less than minimum wage by your boss, because that's what minimum wage means.  Most of the EULA terms we complain about fall short of that standard.

As for "no one reads it" being a defense, it's true that people have tried that argument, and once in a blue moon it wins, but this is very much the exception rather than the rule.  After all, when you click I Agree, you're asserting that you've read and understand the terms of the agreement -- it usually says so right there on the screen.  It is pretty hard to convince a court that, even though the text of the license was in front of you, and even though you specifically clicked a button that said you read it, nevertheless you didn't read it and therefore you should not be bound by it.  Sure, it's a boilerplate contract that you didn't have the opportunity to negotiate, and that does work in your favor, but basically I Agree means I Agree.  So your odds of winning are already bad, and that's before you take into account that the corporation's lawyer is way better than your lawyer, and that they can afford to drag the case on while you can't.  Even the exception I linked to above was not an ordinary court case, but a complaint brought directly by the FTC, which has its own very good lawyers.  In front of the right judge, I have no doubt at all that Google can bury a modest monthly charge in its EULA and get away with it.  You agreed to pay it; what more do you want?  What was Google supposed to do?  Why would you assume it was free?  Isn't "how much does it cost?" the very first thing you should ask about software?  (And as for getting the right judge, remember that the venue of the case is also usually specified by Google in the EULA, assuming they let you take it to court at all rather than submit to arbitration.)  Wikipedia has a selection of such cases, if you want to do further reading.

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#14 | Back to Top08-19-2015 04:28:11 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

To be fair, I did my best to italicize the 'in theory' part of my post. emot-biggrin But the point is Google isn't limited just to the EULA, it has to obey the law similarly to how the government has to. (Except the government doesn't ask for permission or consent when it makes life changing decisions for you. And Google probably has a slightly more difficult time changing the law to its benefit. And in either case, just because a case is taken to court and the government/google [or "govergle" if you will] loses doesn't mean they actually stop doing the bad things instead of learning to cover their tracks better.) I was trying to be optimistic!

Also, for the most part if you violate a EULA the only thing that happens is you don't get to use whatever thing the EULA was for. You don't get sued or go to jail or do hard labour in the data mines, because most of a EULA is the company protecting itself from being sued if you do something naughty to another company/person with their product. (Like invade someone's privacy.)

I mean I could be wrong, but I try to stay positive.

Last edited by Ragnarok (08-19-2015 04:29:08 PM)


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#15 | Back to Top08-20-2015 09:01:19 AM

Snow
Troublesome Insect
From: in the wolf
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 642

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

On a somewhat related note, the Ashley Madison data breach is really popcorn-worthy. People are again reminded that just because a service claims to be safe, there's no way to prove if it is until something like this happens. And while a part of me is giggling with glee over people actually paying money for that shit and expecting it to be safe and then getting fucked over, the mere fact that a service would so shamelessly exploit users and still have millions of them paints a rather chilling picture of the current state of privacy awareness on the internet.

I mean, people in high positions used their official emails to register?! I feel like in this day and age, that kind of behavior is inexcusable if you're an internet-using adult. Period.

Setting aside how disgusted I am by the mere existence of such a site and it's popularity, this is a cautionary tale for users of any service, really. The internet is a dangerous place, and it's the last place you should be accumulating your dirty laundry.

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#16 | Back to Top08-20-2015 09:33:03 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

Snow wrote:

Setting aside how disgusted I am by the mere existence of such a site and it's popularity, this is a cautionary tale for users of any service, really. The internet is a dangerous place, and it's the last place you should be accumulating your dirty laundry.

But what a waste of the promise of the Internet it would be if we had to be our most professional selves at all times.  How much of Tumblr would exist if we adopted that philosophy?  How much of IRG?  For that matter, how much email?  What about text messages?  (Just because you don't look at it in your browser doesn't mean it can't be hacked.)  Or to take it yet farther, would we stop using the Internet for leisure at work and school, for fear someone will get a hold of our browsing history and reveal to the powers-that-be that we took a fifteen-minute break to look at webcomics?  Do we stop looking at porn of any kind at any time, because we wouldn't want our peers and superiors to know our porn-viewing habits?  In short, do we give up on the Internet as a means of recreation and self-expression and self-exegesis and love, and go back to being ourselves only when we're offline?

I don't particularly care about Ashley Madison one way or the other -- like most people, I didn't even know it existed until it got hacked -- but I view the public posting of their member directory as a small tragedy.  I'm sure many of their members were doing something odious.  But let the one who has no dirty laundry on the Internet cast the first stone.

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#17 | Back to Top08-20-2015 09:58:54 AM

Snow
Troublesome Insect
From: in the wolf
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 642

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

I might have gone ahead of myself a bit since I find the situation funny (I'm evil, what can I say). The whole thing is sad, since the site seemed to have appalling security, extorted money to delete an account (which wouldn't actually get deleted), when the entire purpose of it's existence should have been iron security and absolute discretion. And innocent people could easily have been trolled, since the site doesn't verify emails.

If something you do on the internet, barring whiny texts about your parents or boyfriend or complaining about work, has the potential to really hurt an innocent person in your life, maybe, just maybe you should consider not doing it online, where privacy breaches have happened and will continue to happen. Having your private information published for everyone to see is horrible, but I believe that being just a bit more cautious with the really heavy stuff can go a long way - be aware that something like this might happen, and help yourself as much as you can.

And I think that your penchant for furry porn can't really be compared to paying for affairs in regards to hurting someone you care about. But the one at fault here is the site itself, with it's dubious policies, and hating on individuals is just circlefuckery. And hackers gonna hack emot-rolleyes

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#18 | Back to Top08-20-2015 10:42:03 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Google refuses to Google; 8chan has disappeared (but actually hasn't)

I think it's important to maintain a distinction between professional and personal use of the internet. I'm not ashamed to admit that I have a Grindr account, but I wouldn't use my work email address to set up my profile.

The "hacker" mindset is one of post hoc rationalization: the way they see it, the fact that a site could be hacked means that it deserved to be hacked.

We should be able to reasonably expect certain degrees of freedom and privacy, but I'm not sure what we can actually expect. My personal solution to beat hackers and tell them they deserve it because it's not my fault they spent their time learning computers instead of self-defense isn't really practical.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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