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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top01-18-2007 09:38:04 AM

hyacinth_black
une personne horrible
From: Waiting at the window.
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The Utena Tarot

Okay, so I was, like other people I know, dissapointed by the Utena Tarot.  Some of the art wasn't that good & sometimes things just when FTW on you. (OMGTOKIKO'SHANDWTF????)  And I also thought that nobody was in the right position.  Each Tarot card has a symbolism in the body movement & positioning of each person, & sometimes that just wasn't there!  (The Hanged Man is supposed to be in the position of The Golden Dawn...)  So I've decided to kill myself by redoing the entirety of the Tarot, with Utena.

Yes, I am crazy.

And the symbolism of who is who in what card just doesn't work.  At all.  And also, there would have been some amazing pictures had they included the minor arcana!  DAMN THEM!

I love Tarot cards & consider myself a bit of an expert on the meaning of the cards, so yeah...

So... what's yous guys opinion?  Who fits what card?  Is there an underlying tarot theme in Utena? (I belive that there is!  Each situation & arc heavily relates to certain card formations!)  WTF was with Tokiko's hand in Le Judgement?

No, seriously... her hand screws me over every time I see it...

JUST LOOK AT IT!!

(DEAD LINK)

EDIT: But, I must say that The Devil was so very well done.  It included every bit of proper symbolism & the original layout used in the olde cards.  My congratulations to whoever did that one, because it was the only one that I thought 'wow! someone who did their research!' about.

Last edited by hyacinth_black (01-18-2007 09:41:14 AM)


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#2 | Back to Top01-18-2007 11:32:31 AM

Maarika
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From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Re: The Utena Tarot

0: The Fool = Utena

But they have Chu-Chu... emot-gonk
While this is not a bad choice, I believe there's nobody better than Utena to fit that card.

Generally I like the SKU Tarot deck, but I'd redo some cards. Especially The Fool. I've had this in my drawing list for a long time, so I hope I'll eventually get it done too. And I should also mention I don't know much about tarot but it's certainly very interesting.

I think I have to dig into the tarot meanings more to see which cards should be remade.


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#3 | Back to Top01-18-2007 11:36:42 AM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
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Re: The Utena Tarot

hyacinth_black wrote:

WTF was with Tokiko's hand in Le Judgement?

Think it's supposed to be like a hoof or a paw. emot-confused


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#4 | Back to Top01-18-2007 12:09:29 PM

angelicreation
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From: Denver, CO
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: The Utena Tarot

Or somebody just can't draw unusual hand angles.


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#5 | Back to Top01-18-2007 02:26:33 PM

tohubohu
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From: Boston metro area
Registered: 11-02-2006
Posts: 289
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Re: The Utena Tarot

As an aside, there is a set of Major Arcana for an Ohtori (as opposed to Utena) Tarot on my website (concept and text by Bara no hitomi, screencaps and card art by Arkady): http://www.broomstick.org/utena/tarot.html

We keep meaning to work on the minor arcana, and I was thinking about getting a friend who does Flash to do a Tarot program for the site at some point, but I don't know that it's ever going to happen at this point, alas.

Last edited by tohubohu (01-18-2007 04:00:55 PM)

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#6 | Back to Top01-18-2007 02:44:20 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Re: The Utena Tarot

tohubohu wrote:

As an aside, I've got Major Arcana for an Ohtori (as opposed to Utena) Tarot on my website (concept and text by Bara no hitomi, screencaps and card art by Arkady): http://www.broomstick.org/utena/tarot.html

We keep meaning to work on the minor arcana, and I was thinking about getting a friend who does Flash to do a Tarot program for the site at some point, but I don't know that it's ever going to happen at this point, alas.

I like your style, tohubohu! The work on the Major Arcana is absolutely awesome, as is your Page/Duellist/Prince idea for the Minor Arcana. I can't wait to see the rest of the cards...if this deck ever gets sold, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!


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#7 | Back to Top01-18-2007 02:48:26 PM

Syna
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From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
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Re: The Utena Tarot

tohubohu, awesome concept and execution! I loved your choices and rationale. Completely echoing BioKraze, here.

I think if nothing else, we all know what the Chariot should be...

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#8 | Back to Top01-18-2007 04:00:25 PM

tohubohu
Precious One
From: Boston metro area
Registered: 11-02-2006
Posts: 289
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Re: The Utena Tarot

Not mine!  Not mine!  I just host it!  emot-smile Thank you for all the compliments, though -- I will pass along to the author!

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#9 | Back to Top01-19-2007 09:17:53 AM

hyacinth_black
une personne horrible
From: Waiting at the window.
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Re: The Utena Tarot

Maarika wrote:

0: The Fool = Utena

But they have Chu-Chu... emot-gonk
While this is not a bad choice, I believe there's nobody better than Utena to fit that card.

Generally I like the SKU Tarot deck, but I'd redo some cards. Especially The Fool. I've had this in my drawing list for a long time, so I hope I'll eventually get it done too. And I should also mention I don't know much about tarot but it's certainly very interesting.

I think I have to dig into the tarot meanings more to see which cards should be remade.

Quite frankly I disagree.  Mikage would be the best fool.

The Fool represents somebody who is under the wrong impression.  In the original card, there is a young man walking happily with a dog.  The sun shines & all seems perfect.  But, right before his feet is the edge of a cliff.

I think that Mikage would be perfect for it because he believes in the whole illusion that is taking place with Mamiya, himself, the Nemuro Hall, & everything.  But, what he doesn't realise is that the whole time he was walking straight into Akio's trap, and when he does realise it, it's much too late.

Perfect, yes?

Sometimes I hate it when movies & so on come up with tarot decks that have random illustrations on there that make some sense from just the literal name relating to the picture, but otherwise show no relation to the true meaning of the card.  Quite honestly, one shouldn't have to use a little guide to tarot while reading the cards.  The answers are all there within the pictures, are they not?

Actually, I've checked out this fascinating book on the Tarot & if I find the time, I'll try and post some of the card analyses on here.

GOD, I LOVE THIS FORUM! One moment you're talking about philosophy, symbolism, & metaphor, & then the next you're talking about MANTHY.

It's glorious.


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#10 | Back to Top01-19-2007 10:18:00 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The Utena Tarot

The Fool represents somebody who is under the wrong impression.  In the original card, there is a young man walking happily with a dog.  The sun shines & all seems perfect.  But, right before his feet is the edge of a cliff.

But under some esoteric interpretations, the Fool represents an enlightened individual who lives without fear of mortality.
You could propably do a doctoral thesis about the variations and interpretations of tarot...


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#11 | Back to Top01-19-2007 10:24:12 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: The Utena Tarot

hyacinth_black wrote:

Quite frankly I disagree.  Mikage would be the best fool.

The Fool represents somebody who is under the wrong impression.  In the original card, there is a young man walking happily with a dog.  The sun shines & all seems perfect.  But, right before his feet is the edge of a cliff.

I think that Mikage would be perfect for it because he believes in the whole illusion that is taking place with Mamiya, himself, the Nemuro Hall, & everything.  But, what he doesn't realise is that the whole time he was walking straight into Akio's trap, and when he does realise it, it's much too late.

I think Mikage is also a very good choice, but don't forget Mikage and Utena have a lot in common. Just like him, Utena was under the wrong impression too. The memory of her childhood wasn't a complete truth, yet she was still following it, so she was living according to her illusions too. ;D
What sets them apart is that Utena was able to make a change in the end (I'm not saying Mikage didn't change, he certainly did, but his change didn't affect others the way Utena's did). This is why I'd choose Utena over Mikage. I know as much as that The Fool card should represent the protagonist. Oh, and also that The Fool card was special about something (but I really can't remember what it was, probably has something to with the numeration of this card), so anyway, I'm still sticking with Utena as the Fool. :embarrassed:


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#12 | Back to Top01-21-2007 03:27:19 AM

Trench Kamen
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 12-08-2006
Posts: 903
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Re: The Utena Tarot

tohubohu wrote:

As an aside, there is a set of Major Arcana for an Ohtori (as opposed to Utena) Tarot on my website (concept and text by Bara no hitomi, screencaps and card art by Arkady): http://www.broomstick.org/utena/tarot.html

Oh, I remember reading this quite a while ago when I was doing research on Tarot. I loved the interpretations!

My interpretation of The Fool has always been a mishmash of the two presented for Utena and Mikage, context-related. They're both characters inflicted with ignorance of the situation, but in one case (Mikage's), the fool actually falls into the goarge, and in the other (Utena's), the fool miraculously misses the peril. It's not the end result that matters, it's the state of the person walking right into danger. Utena had always made me think of the saying "Fools do the impossible because they do not know what is impossible". It seems as though Mikage failed as soon as he realized he had been led into a trap, and Utena refused to STOP being a fool. I think THAT is a huge contributer to her ability to open the Rose Gate, etc.

Recall when Juri was telling Miki the virtue of his fencing was its "innocent, untrained" quality? It's unpredictable and unrestrained by "what is possible" or formulatic alogrithms. That is the power of the fool. And the plague of the fool is, of course, ignorance.

I've never thought that Tarot cards are so specific they only fit one manifestation of an archetype. I myself read Tarot, as may be obvious, and I use a CLAMP deck from X. The Major Arcana actually make sense, but since the cards are Hong Kong counterfeits, the Minor Arcana have random pictures slapped on them that often have absolutely nothing to do with the classical interpretation of the cards. I mentally set the stage, so to speak, to interpret classical meanings *and* pictures, if needed. It's difficult to describe.

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#13 | Back to Top01-21-2007 02:14:08 PM

junior
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Registered: 11-18-2006
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Re: The Utena Tarot

My pet peeve regarding Utena Tarot decks is Utena absolutely has to be the fool, I mean, they say she's the fool in episode 37!

"
Touga:  Do you want to meet your Prince that badly?
Utena:  That's not all.
Saionji:  Then, for what?
Touga:  Is it for Himemiya?
Touga:  He who believes friendship exists is a fool.
Utena:  Didn't you know? I am a fool.
Anthy:  "The time is ripe. The time to pass through the Rose Gate,
Anthy:  when the path to the Castle is opened,
Anthy:  and you shall receive the Power to Revolutionize the World.
Anthy:  And there, we shall meet again.
Anthy:  From your Prince."
Anthy:  Utena-sama. You can still turn back.
Utena:  Let's go.
"

They say Utena is a fool right before she goes on her journey of enlightenment (or 'apocalypse') at the end of the series, I think it may very well be an intentional Tarot reference on the part of the creators, because the fool is used to symbolize the beginning of a journey, and a naive fearlessness when approaching an unknown situation!

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#14 | Back to Top01-23-2007 08:20:38 AM

hyacinth_black
une personne horrible
From: Waiting at the window.
Registered: 10-21-2006
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Re: The Utena Tarot

junior wrote:

My pet peeve regarding Utena Tarot decks is Utena absolutely has to be the fool, I mean, they say she's the fool in episode 37!

"
Touga:  Do you want to meet your Prince that badly?
Utena:  That's not all.
Saionji:  Then, for what?
Touga:  Is it for Himemiya?
Touga:  He who believes friendship exists is a fool.
Utena:  Didn't you know? I am a fool.
Anthy:  "The time is ripe. The time to pass through the Rose Gate,
Anthy:  when the path to the Castle is opened,
Anthy:  and you shall receive the Power to Revolutionize the World.
Anthy:  And there, we shall meet again.
Anthy:  From your Prince."
Anthy:  Utena-sama. You can still turn back.
Utena:  Let's go.
"

They say Utena is a fool right before she goes on her journey of enlightenment (or 'apocalypse') at the end of the series, I think it may very well be an intentional Tarot reference on the part of the creators, because the fool is used to symbolize the beginning of a journey, and a naive fearlessness when approaching an unknown situation!

You have a very good point.  Very very good point.

Of course, one must also consider the aesthetic placing of the characters.  Exactly what will she be walking off of?

I have considered this & found that it does make much better sense to use Mikage, for he will be holding a rose & a sword while walking in the Nemuro hall basement into a pit of flames.  Truely, it does make sense for this card, & there are just so many other places that Utena would be perfect for & so very few that Mikage would be so perfect for.


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#15 | Back to Top01-23-2007 09:47:36 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: The Utena Tarot

hyacinth_black wrote:

Of course, one must also consider the aesthetic placing of the characters.  Exactly what will she be walking off of?

Off the edge of the duel arena, of course. emot-keke

For some reason I just thought it'd be neat to contrast her stepping off the ledge contrasted to Akio who stands off it and just floats. I know that has nothing to do with tarot but it sounded like a neat commentary on the story. emot-keke


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#16 | Back to Top01-23-2007 06:32:16 PM

hyacinth_black
une personne horrible
From: Waiting at the window.
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Re: The Utena Tarot

Giovanna wrote:

hyacinth_black wrote:

Of course, one must also consider the aesthetic placing of the characters.  Exactly what will she be walking off of?

Off the edge of the duel arena, of course. emot-keke

For some reason I just thought it'd be neat to contrast her stepping off the ledge contrasted to Akio who stands off it and just floats. I know that has nothing to do with tarot but it sounded like a neat commentary on the story. emot-keke

Problem with her stepping off the arena is that there is kind of... a wall around it...

Maybe her stepping off the edgy thingy from the last episodes/the place where she first saw Anthy.


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#17 | Back to Top01-24-2007 06:50:44 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The Utena Tarot

hyacinth_black wrote:

Problem with her stepping off the arena is that there is kind of... a wall around it...

Didn't prevent Akio from jumping off it and Utena following him. The wall's there only if you think about it...or something.


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#18 | Back to Top01-24-2007 07:58:36 AM

hyacinth_black
une personne horrible
From: Waiting at the window.
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 3301
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Re: The Utena Tarot

Lightice wrote:

hyacinth_black wrote:

Problem with her stepping off the arena is that there is kind of... a wall around it...

Didn't prevent Akio from jumping off it and Utena following him. The wall's there only if you think about it...or something.

But... Utena can't be jumping off of it...

Anyways... I've examined the cards now for quite a while & I have decided that THOUGH Utena would be well suited for The Fool, I would rather have her as The Magician, for there are no other characters better suited to that particular card.

Here is proof!

Tarot Card Meanings from free-tarot-reading.net wrote:

The Magician

positive associations with this tarot card: action, power, originality, confidence, individuality, willpower, new beginnings, potential

negative associations with this tarot card: trickery, deception, lack of self-confidence, indecision, abuse of power

The Magician is an excellent omen symbolizing new opportunities, the importance of new enterprise and that you will have the willpower and initiative to succeed in whatever you do

the mercurial nature of The Magician means that you will be able to think on your feet and bluff your way through any difficulties

negatively this card represents trickery or deception and is a warning to be careful of whom you place your trust in

another negative aspect of The Magician is that it may suggest that you are lacking in self-confidence and being indecisive

There aren't any other characters one could relate to that card.  Seriously.

I'm going to go with Mikage as The Fool.

A bit later I'm going to post a list of the major arcana & give who I think would make the best character for that card along with some explanations.


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#19 | Back to Top03-29-2007 01:08:47 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: The Utena Tarot

I know a couple things about the Tarot myself.  Honestly, I think the Utena Tarot generally does a very good job matching characters with archetypes.

I love the dialogue junior posted as an illustration of why Utena could/should be the Fool.  Utena's attitude is perfect.  On the other hand, I don't see Mikage as the Fool at all.  The Fool is optimistic and carefree.  He is NEVER cynical and wouldn't have the first idea how to manipulate anybody.  True, Mikage is walking off a cliff because he isn't watching where he's going, but the Fool doesn't watch because the Fool doesn't understand the concept of danger; Mikage doesn't watch because Mikage wallows in self-deceit.  Utena is a wonderful fit.  Chu Chu is okay.  Mikage... honestly, I really don't see it.

Mind you, Mikage is not a great fit as Death either.  Death in the Tarot has the flavor of an exit that is an entrance to somewhere else -- an opportunity for rebirth.  Mikage is okay in this role.  He offers a sort of rebirth to the visitors to his seminar; they symbolically die when they accept the black rose, emerging from Nemuro Memorial Hall changed.   But this "rebirth" is more negative and artificial than the Tarot's Death usually feels.

Utena as the Magician?  Nah.  The Magician at his most fundamental is DYNAMIC.  He molds his environment to suit himself.  The Magician is never "caught up in" anything as Utena is caught up in the duels; he chooses his own circumstances.  He is the last person you would expect to see halfheartedly giving in to sex; when the Magician chooses to have sex, he is a fucking satyr.  And unlike Utena, who spends the entire series in the dark about what is going on around her and powerless to change it, the Magician always knows the score and has the resources to change whatever he likes.  Akio is a perfect fit for the Magician.

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#20 | Back to Top03-29-2007 08:13:15 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: The Utena Tarot

satyreyes wrote:

Mind you, Mikage is not a great fit as Death either.  Death in the Tarot has the flavor of an exit that is an entrance to somewhere else -- an opportunity for rebirth.  Mikage is okay in this role.  He offers a sort of rebirth to the visitors to his seminar; they symbolically die when they accept the black rose, emerging from Nemuro Memorial Hall changed.   But this "rebirth" is more negative and artificial than the Tarot's Death usually feels.

Actually, now that you mention it I think Mikage would suit that discription. It is through his own leaving from Ohtori that he gets a second chance. Well that's how I interpreted it anyway. It seemed to me that in the end, he was able to leave Ohtori and his past self behind.


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#21 | Back to Top03-29-2007 08:55:43 AM

hyacinth_black
une personne horrible
From: Waiting at the window.
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 3301
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Re: The Utena Tarot

satyreyes wrote:

Utena as the Magician?  Nah.  The Magician at his most fundamental is DYNAMIC.  He molds his environment to suit himself.  The Magician is never "caught up in" anything as Utena is caught up in the duels; he chooses his own circumstances.  He is the last person you would expect to see halfheartedly giving in to sex; when the Magician chooses to have sex, he is a fucking satyr.  And unlike Utena, who spends the entire series in the dark about what is going on around her and powerless to change it, the Magician always knows the score and has the resources to change whatever he likes.  Akio is a perfect fit for the Magician.

Umm...



You guys make my head hurt.



Now listen, I am going to have Mikage as the Fool, okay?  The biggest point of the fool is that it is the beginning/ending of a journey in which the Fool is masked to certain truths.  This fits Mikage perfectly!  I'd much rather have Utena somewhere else.


And as for Death, that is going to be Dios.  There's no WAY that Dios could not be death.  I mean COME ON!  The symbolism is all there.


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#22 | Back to Top03-29-2007 11:59:03 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: The Utena Tarot

hyacinth_black wrote:

Now listen, I am going to have Mikage as the Fool, okay?  The biggest point of the fool is that it is the beginning/ending of a journey in which the Fool is masked to certain truths.  This fits Mikage perfectly!

It fits Utena perfectly too... and Utena matches more of the Fool's other connotations emot-frown  But if you want Mikage, I'm not going to stop you.  Dios as Death is okay, though I actually prefer him as the Hanged Man, the original set's choice.

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#23 | Back to Top03-29-2007 12:54:06 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: The Utena Tarot

I'm going to have to agree with everyone else and say Utena would be the perfect Fool. Mikage? emot-confused Well, I can see how he would fit, but I can see how Utena would fit much better. I don't think Utena really fits the Magician at all.

I'm just now looking at the Utena tarot deck for the first time.. But I can't read French. Some of the art looks rather snazzy, though.

Who do you think would fit the Hanged man? At Utena_hush on LJ, we get tarot themes sometimes, and we had that theme recently. I made an icon of Tatsuya.. But I forgot why I thought he fit. I suppose it's because of how he went to Utena to see what Wakaba wanted, and then later went to Mikage after Wakaba "dumped" him. It just seemed like he was trying to see things from different point of views. I've seen a lot of people use Ruka, too, though, but I'm not sure how he fits, either. Hmm.


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#24 | Back to Top03-29-2007 02:57:58 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: The Utena Tarot

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Who do you think would fit the Hanged man? At Utena_hush on LJ, we get tarot themes sometimes, and we had that theme recently. I made an icon of Tatsuya.. But I forgot why I thought he fit. I suppose it's because of how he went to Utena to see what Wakaba wanted, and then later went to Mikage after Wakaba "dumped" him. It just seemed like he was trying to see things from different point of views. I've seen a lot of people use Ruka, too, though, but I'm not sure how he fits, either. Hmm.

Well, the Hanged Man has to do with a sort of stasis.  He is literally suspended.  It's not necessarily an unpleasant stasis -- traditionally, the Hanged Man is painted with a smile on his face, and if you turn him upside down he looks like he's dancing -- but it can be.  In a sense, Ohtori Academy itself is the best Hanged Man icon in the show.  A few other candidates:

Dios.  His depiction in Episode 13 very much feels like somewhere the Hanged Man would find himself, and the reference to him as "sleeping" fits.  It works especially well if you interpret his riding off into the distance in episode 39 as a sort of rebirth or release.  You're right that the Hanged Man also has to do with turning things over in your mind until you reach resolution/revolution and can proceed -- exactly what the spirit of Dios does in Utena.

Anthy.  She is as suspended as anyone in the series -- literally, in episode 39.  The problem is that she is portrayed as imprisoned against her will.  Occasionally the Hanged Man's stasis can be involuntary, but if the Hanged Man is imprisoned he spends the time preparing himself for a new life (note that the card immediately after the Hanged Man in the Major Arcana is Death).  Anthy doesn't spend her time this way, instead retreating inside herself.

Touga in the Black Rose Saga.  This guy is a really good study in what it means to be the Hanged Man, and is probably the strongest candidate I've listed, but I'd be uncomfortable sticking just one season's version of him on a card.

I don't like Ruka here, simply because his frenzied activity is unbecoming the Hanged Man.  Tatsuya is better; he doesn't really succeed in changing anything in his episode, so he remains in stasis, and between his trips to Utena, Wakaba, and Mikage he certainly does accumulate different ways of thinking about his relationships and himself.  But he doesn't mean to remain in stasis or gather new points of view.  In fact, he tries to break out of that stasis, and his new understanding of his situation's complexity comes in spite of his best efforts to create something simple and clean.

Last edited by satyreyes (03-29-2007 03:06:53 PM)

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#25 | Back to Top03-29-2007 03:32:34 PM

guardian_rose
Precious One
From: Alaska
Registered: 03-06-2007
Posts: 281

Re: The Utena Tarot

i see alot of argument on the fool. utena or mikage?

i  was under the impression that new artwork was to be created for these tarot cards. perhaps taking artistic license and doing an utena/mikage joint card would be a good mid point, since together they best represent the fool.

also, where is there a rule that specificly states that you cannot reuse a character in another card? you will eventually have to do this anyway, if you do the minor cards as well.


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