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#1 | Back to Top01-12-2007 09:02:13 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

After the death of Mamiya, Nemuro went crazy and burnt down a building. Years later, we find him as Mikage, with Anthy posing as Mamiya as his presumed, well, lover, for lack of a better term.

Now, how did Nemuro go from being in love with Tokiko and regarding Mamiya as a younger brother to Mikage as still appearing to be somewhat in love with Tokiko, yet with "Mamiya" as his lover?

Basically, how did Nemuro go from seeing Mamiya as a little brother type to ending up romantically interested?


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
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#2 | Back to Top01-13-2007 12:32:33 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

A Day Without Me wrote:

After the death of Mamiya, Nemuro went crazy and burnt down a building. Years later, we find him as Mikage, with Anthy posing as Mamiya as his presumed, well, lover, for lack of a better term.

Now, how did Nemuro go from being in love with Tokiko and regarding Mamiya as a younger brother to Mikage as still appearing to be somewhat in love with Tokiko, yet with "Mamiya" as his lover?

Basically, how did Nemuro go from seeing Mamiya as a little brother type to ending up romantically interested?

...oh, boy, I could talk about this forever. emot-biggrin But about...hot damn, seven years ago (!) I wrote an essay that is posted here about Nemuro and his degeneration into Mikage; it deals with how he went from wanting to be some combination of Mamiya's father/brother (as Tokiko was his mother/sister, and Nemuro wanted to be on an equal level with her there) to desiring Mamiya in a more carnal sense. The explanation I gave in this essay is fairly...er, lengthy (I also haven't read it in a while), but the basic impression I always had from the series was that Akio uses sex as a means of binding people together, and it was a convenient manner of making a frigid character like Professor Nemuro into the far more passionate and emotionally-driven Mikage. Because as Utena demonstrates throughout the series, "earnesty is valuable."

...oh Christ I'm suddenly thinking of Utena in The Importance of Being Earnest. Shoot me now, as questions later! ...although I do wonder what Oscar Wilde would have made of this show, all of a sudden...


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#3 | Back to Top01-13-2007 11:45:41 AM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

(Could also write essays if she wasn't lazy and unstructured.)

Honestly, I think there was confusion about the nature of the relationship he wanted with Mamiya, even in his Nemuro days. Without any of Akio's influence there dragging any negative subconscious aspects to his surface personality, I believe he was attracted to Mamiya sexually as well as wanting to make his own psuedo-family with Tokiko, placing him there as 'father figure'.

His attraction to Tokiko could have been more abstract than solidly sexual: he viewed her as a certain archetypal figure, a conglomeration of his ideas of the perfect spouse and mother. His initial attraction to her at first seemed to be on a more calculating, scientific level: this is an attractive female, everything in place here. These are legs, these are breasts, those are lips. (The slow camera pan up her body to her face basically showing his eyepath.) The blinking finger pointing out what he was focusing on in that scene showed the butterfly, the family of cats, Tokiko pouring the tea, and her lipstick print on the teacup. The butterfly doesn't strike me as symbolic about their relationship so much as the mental state of the character, Nemuro. He's still mentally intact, and hasn't 'descended' into the Mikage state yet. The 'family' of cats show his own desire to be part of such a closely-knit group. The cats themselves, though, are symbols of the feminine. Along with this, what he chooses to focus on was Tokiko's hand tilting the tea kettle: an intrinsically feminine task, especially keeping the culture in mind. The action is submissive, serene, and also motherly. She is providing and nurturing.

The scene where this romantic interest really seems to strike him shows Tokiko in a motherly light as well. She scolds Mamiya for being reckless and not taking care of himself, become so passionate over his welfare that she sheds tears. In the next, she is sitting quietly and peacefully at the bedside of an obviously ill child, and caring for him, administering medication. Her voice is pitched at that half-lilting lullaby tone used to calm frightened or upset children. Nemuro is touched especially by these scenes in particular, and the maternal nature of her actions in both of them causes me to believe what he was truly interested in with Tokiko was not necessarily a sexual, erotic love, but rather the love of a mother, someone pure, compassionate, and sheltering. His own romantic interest in her as a female blurred this considerably, but we can see his world-view shattered when he sees Tokiko, Virgin Mary, on Akio's lap. (Fruedian, anyone?)

As far as Mamiya is concerned, I think he wanted to be a father figure towards him at first, because it fit in the neat and tidy scenario of Mother/Father/Son. However, I think, near the end, he started developing more sexual feelings for him, allowing more confusion and even causing him to 'descend' a little bit more. Note that right after his meeting with Mamiya in the rose garden, after he makes his statement that he doesn't believe that Nemuro and Tokiko's efforts will succeed, but he respects and admires both of them, we see a quick flash to the framed leaf. These feelings toward Mamiya weren't truly expressed, possibly not even consciously known, until his transformation into Mikage.

school-freud

Clarice wrote:

...oh Christ I'm suddenly thinking of Utena in The Importance of Being Earnest.

*dies*


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#4 | Back to Top01-13-2007 12:12:02 PM

Epi_lepsia
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From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
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Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

I wish english was my language, i have so much to say about this... emot-gonk

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#5 | Back to Top01-13-2007 04:03:17 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Oo, I loveth you guys - the whole Nemuro/Mikage/Mamiya/Tokiko relationship has always been a bit fascinating to me, but I could never really completely figure it out. I sort of wish we'd had a bit more time with these four in the series, honestly - especially the real Mamiya as opposed to Anthy-Mamiya. We don't even get to see the real Mamiya until the end of the arc, for god's sake!


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#6 | Back to Top01-14-2007 03:29:11 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

A Day Without Me wrote:

Oo, I loveth you guys - the whole Nemuro/Mikage/Mamiya/Tokiko relationship has always been a bit fascinating to me, but I could never really completely figure it out. I sort of wish we'd had a bit more time with these four in the series, honestly - especially the real Mamiya as opposed to Anthy-Mamiya. We don't even get to see the real Mamiya until the end of the arc, for god's sake!

I'm with you on that one -- I mean, we don't even know for sure if ANY of Anthy!Mamiya's actions and/or words can actually be attributed to the real Mamiya. [pulls out hair] I'd say something more but I am horrendously jetlagged, so...tomorrow!


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#7 | Back to Top01-14-2007 04:52:02 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Oh, and then there's the fact that we're seeing all of this through Nemuro's rather deluded purple lenses, so I suspect some parts of those memories were tampered with, to put it simply. Makes it even more hard to figure out who the Real!Mamiya really was and how he really acted.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#8 | Back to Top01-14-2007 10:52:38 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

This is an awesome subject I will totally ramble on about soon. You know, while I'm supposed to be working, since I can't very well screencap there. emot-keke I'm just posting it here before I forget: Mikage's ring changes from one scene to the next. emot-mad emot-mad emot-mad When he tells Tatsuya to bugger off, his ring is white like the student council. When he's dropping Saionji's hair clip in the coffin, it's black. emot-confused


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#9 | Back to Top01-15-2007 12:17:20 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Clarice wrote:

I'm with you on that one -- I mean, we don't even know for sure if ANY of Anthy!Mamiya's actions and/or words can actually be attributed to the real Mamiya. [pulls out hair] I'd say something more but I am horrendously jetlagged, so...tomorrow!

While I don't have any conclusive evidence, I believe that it's real Mamiya in all those scenes that we quickly see real-Mamiya version of, in Mikage's duel. I mean, in those scenes Mamiya implies that he doesn't want eternity, comparing himself to dried flowers and all that - but when the Castle has appeared and the hundred boys start talking about duelling, suddenly he's basically demanding Nemuro to duel for him. I think that's the transition point between real and imaginary Mamiya.


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#10 | Back to Top01-15-2007 04:52:44 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Ivy-chan wrote:

The scene where this romantic interest really seems to strike him shows Tokiko in a motherly light as well. She scolds Mamiya for being reckless and not taking care of himself, become so passionate over his welfare that she sheds tears. In the next, she is sitting quietly and peacefully at the bedside of an obviously ill child, and caring for him, administering medication. Her voice is pitched at that half-lilting lullaby tone used to calm frightened or upset children. Nemuro is touched especially by these scenes in particular, and the maternal nature of her actions in both of them causes me to believe what he was truly interested in with Tokiko was not necessarily a sexual, erotic love, but rather the love of a mother, someone pure, compassionate, and sheltering. His own romantic interest in her as a female blurred this considerably, but we can see his world-view shattered when he sees Tokiko, Virgin Mary, on Akio's lap. (Fruedian, anyone?)

Personally, I think if Freud ever saw this show, he'd etc-wankdude himself into eternal happiness. If his head just didn't explode first. emot-biggrin

And yes, actually, I find the idea that Nemuro was also struck by the maternal aspects of Tokiko interesting. I tend to take it as having something to do with the fact that if he married her, he'd more or less be stepping straight into a full family (with him as the father, Tokiko as the mother, and Mamiya as the child). But then you can look at it the other way and wonder what in the hell Nemuro's life was like growing up. It's a constant theme in the show, having nothing approaching true parents, and I think from this we can assume Nemuro was much the same. He never really had human contact of any kind, it seems from this, and so it seems hardly strange at all that Tokiko would appeal to him in more than one aspect as a woman (i.e. on the maternal as well as the more sexual side...hell, now I'm trying to remember that triad from Evangelion...how Ritsuko's mother had each of the three super-computers named AND identified as an aspect of her female self, i.e. Melchior Dr. Naoko Akagi as a scientist; Balthasar Dr. Naoko Akagi as a mother; Caspar Dr. Naoko Akagi as a woman. I mention this simply because Tokiko appears to have appealed to Nemuro on all three of these levels...). Hmm...

Ivy-chan wrote:

As far as Mamiya is concerned, I think he wanted to be a father figure towards him at first, because it fit in the neat and tidy scenario of Mother/Father/Son. However, I think, near the end, he started developing more sexual feelings for him, allowing more confusion and even causing him to 'descend' a little bit more. Note that right after his meeting with Mamiya in the rose garden, after he makes his statement that he doesn't believe that Nemuro and Tokiko's efforts will succeed, but he respects and admires both of them, we see a quick flash to the framed leaf. These feelings toward Mamiya weren't truly expressed, possibly not even consciously known, until his transformation into Mikage.

Dammit, I wish I could consilodate my own actual feelings on this. emot-biggrin I tend towards thinking that Nemuro's love for Mamiya was platonic, but it's possibly because of the squick factor (which I find hilarious given the number of other things in this show that don't necessarily squick me when perhaps they should, but...ah, well, who knows how a crazy fangirl's mind really works, huh?). With that said, however, it saddens me rather a lot that there seems to be no such thing as Nemuro/real!Mamiya fic. emot-frown I have to say, however, in my first watching of the show I found his table-side conversation with Mamiya to be rather full of subtext. I mean, the real point of it was Mamiya obliquely expressing his desire to follow the natural course of life and death, but...I don't know if it's translated the same in the official dub (I don't think it is, actually), but there's a point where Mamiya apologises that his sister isn't home and Nemuro says it's all right, "I only wanted to see your face." That line made me double-take a little, even before I knew of the dual nature of Mamiya in the series; it seemed to be a not entirely platonic thing to be saying to Mamiya, but that is perhaps only my interpretation. Things definitely took a more sexual bent when Mamiya approached Nemuro on the bed with the armful of flowers (ZOMG THE WAYS YOU COULD TAKE THAT), but as mentioned below that's quite possibly the point where real!Mamiya becomes Anthy!Mamiya, and we can't be sure the real Mamiya ever did anything of the sort.

But yes, I really can't decide if Nemuro ever harboured feelings that were less than platonic towards Mamiya before Mikage, emot-gonk I'd actually love to write fic exploring that, but damn Death always ruins my plans. [pouts] With that said, however, I have always had the distinct impression that even the real Mamiya had a crush on Nemuro (there's just something in the way he keeps referring to his sister and telling Nemuro that his sister admires his work in this kind of wistful way that makes my heart go squishy and sad). It may have been one of those crushes a younger teenager gets on an older peer, regardless of their genders, but...this is SKU. Nothing's ever that simple. school-devil

Giovanna wrote:

This is an awesome subject I will totally ramble on about soon. You know, while I'm supposed to be working, since I can't very well screencap there. emot-keke I'm just posting it here before I forget: Mikage's ring changes from one scene to the next. emot-mad emot-mad emot-mad When he tells Tatsuya to bugger off, his ring is white like the student council. When he's dropping Saionji's hair clip in the coffin, it's black. emot-confused

Hee, we shall look forward to your input. emot-biggrin And you know, that's one thing that has always intrigued me...I noticed even from the very first time I saw the arc that Mikage's ring seemed to switch colour occasionally, and I figured later that it was likely as not an animation error. It seems rather a daft one to make due to the significance of the colour of the rings at that point in time, but go figure. If I try and think of a logical explanation, my brain explodes, but...well, what do we know about the rings? They're given by Akio as a binding "contract," and before Nemuro received his there were a hundred boys who wore them. When the Hall burned to the ground, they were presumably killed, and the rings went black. Things get hazy, however, when we debate the reality of the sacrifice -- do we really think Akio could have had a sacrifice of one hundred boys on campus and then have NOBODY get into distinct trouble for it? Not to mention it seems erased from the historical record, or at least hazy in everyone's memory (see Miki's complete inability to remember the actual name of the burned hall...which is a curious thing in itself, because it was extremely unlikely to have been called Nemuro Kinenkan in Nemuro's time; irony is, it was probably named one of the names Miki was spouting off (although if I remember correctly, his guesses are a geographical joke anyway)). Did the boys die in the first place? Buggered if I can tell...

But um, yeah. The black rings remind me of bones burned to ash, and are worn by those who theoretically died in the fire. Due Tokiko's reaction to seeing him at the school years later we can be fairly sure that Nemuro didn't die in the fire himself (because although the idea of Mikage as a sort of peculiar poltergeist-like spirit really amuses me (and if we work on the current assumption that poltergeists are less a real person and more the tangible and semi-conscious manifestation of a great deal of energy released into the ether through intense emotion, it actually makes a good deal of sense)), thus his ring should remain white at all times. And yet you get this black moment. Is it symbolic, perhaps, of Mikage's attitude at that point in time? I think the Saionji/Wakaba/Tatsuya thing was actually the most wrenching of the duels and their lead-ins, whatever way you look at it. And although the dynamic is different, you could even play a bit into the Akio/Tokiko/Nemuro parallels there. So, did Mikage's ring appear black because of the way he'd hardened his own heart against the woman who had apparently rejected him for the more "special" individual, despite the fact she was likely as not completely unaware of his feelings? I guess it's a distinct possibility...

Lightice wrote:

Clarice wrote:

I'm with you on that one -- I mean, we don't even know for sure if ANY of Anthy!Mamiya's actions and/or words can actually be attributed to the real Mamiya. [pulls out hair] I'd say something more but I am horrendously jetlagged, so...tomorrow!

While I don't have any conclusive evidence, I believe that it's real Mamiya in all those scenes that we quickly see real-Mamiya version of, in Mikage's duel. I mean, in those scenes Mamiya implies that he doesn't want eternity, comparing himself to dried flowers and all that - but when the Castle has appeared and the hundred boys start talking about duelling, suddenly he's basically demanding Nemuro to duel for him. I think that's the transition point between real and imaginary Mamiya.

I agree with that, I think. I have the irritating habit of occasionally trying to write fic from the POV of the real Mamiya, and in fact the first fic I ever wrote dealt with what I saw as the about-face in Mamiya, i.e. the "I want it. I want eternity!" bit, which was portrayed as being the real reason Nemuro went a bit schizo and set the building on fire. (And I say "schizo" with a great deal of irony, because for all we know that Mamiya really WAS just a voice in his head...) When I wrote this fic I was theorising that perhaps Akio had influenced the real Mamiya to say these things, but I think that was entirely artistic license on my part; we really have no idea if Akio and Mamiya even ever met. Which is kind of an interesting idea in and of itself, really...


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#11 | Back to Top01-15-2007 06:51:39 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Ivy-chan wrote:

His initial attraction to her at first seemed to be on a more calculating, scientific level: this is an attractive female, everything in place here. ..... The scene where this romantic interest really seems to strike him shows Tokiko in a motherly light as well. ....  His own romantic interest in her as a female blurred this considerably, but we can see his world-view shattered when he sees Tokiko, Virgin Mary, on Akio's lap. (Fruedian, anyone?)

I think this is a lot of the problem he has. Clarice also mentions the possibility of yet another family gone wrong, and that's the case here. SKU says very, very little about parents, strikingly little, in fact, to the point where that deliberate absence makes you consider them all the more. (I've yapped repeatedly about conclusions I draw about Saionji and Touga's family lives.) I also wrote an essay involving Mikage (although it sucks compared to the awesome that is Clarice's emot-frown ), it centered around genius, and basically a conclusions I'd draw about Nemuro's childhood was that his parents were knowingly negligent. This is different from Touga's parents; Nemuro's might have been nurturing, and weren't, because the parents of such children very often mistake intelligence and unusual maturity for having 'grown out' of such affections. Or to give them the benefit of the doubt, they might have done what seemed to them like affection for such a unique child. They might have purchased a chemistry set for him, or supplied him with research texts, but then kinda forgot to hug him a little.

school-freud school-freud school-freud
The result becomes stunted psychosexual development of the sort that would leave Nemuro with a very ambiguous internal idea of women. His mother was never emotionally defined on her own. Couple this with what probably wasn't the most active sex life, and Nemuro's experiences haven't provided him with a solid difference between 'mother' and 'lover'. (We view his walking in on her with Akio as traumatic in the way it would be to walk in on your lover with someone else. Keep in mind the strangely possessive shitfit a lot of boys throw the first time they catch their mother's screwing.) This leaves Mamiya as an ambiguous son/brother to him. How it becomes sexual? I think the seed is there from the beginning because again, sexuality isn't a concept that's defined itself for Nemuro, so he's never sorted out where or when it would apply. I agree though that it became truly sexual when Anthy came along.

Akio and Anthy place her as Mamiya because he needed something close to what he wanted without being what he wanted; she couldn't appear as Tokiko and have it work. (Mamiya's also the target of the protective impulse driving him.) Like Clarice says, it becomes sexual because that's just how Akio rolls, and because it loosened Nemuro up a little, and because it was always latent as a possibility anyway.

Clarice wrote:

I think the Saionji/Wakaba/Tatsuya thing was actually the most wrenching of the duels and their lead-ins, whatever way you look at it.

Tell me about it, I cry like a bitch. emot-gonk But I think it's also the one Mikage was most invested in. Keiko's, the only one after, is pretty self-orchestrating, he doesn't put his foot out to trip events at all. I got the impression he thought Wakaba would be his best shot, and pulled the most strings to accomplish it. At least he's a man of his word; he could have as soon not done what he'd promised Saionji. Odd scene that, how he manages to sit five feet from Saionji without him noticing. Also, that shot is on my list for the body language thread. emot-smile

As for Miki, he knows the name just fine until Akio says Mikage and Mamiya never existed in the school. This is a rather awesome display of power on Akio's part given there's a whole damn society around Mikage and Mikage is an extremely well known figure. Even Utena was easier for people to forget; popular girls come and go, but Akio pretty effectively wipes a very powerful person off the face of...the school, anyway. emot-keke I've never really examined this beyond 'holy christ dude', but it's really rather shocking...

I also wonder about Mikage 'graduating'. It's such a big deal for Utena to leave the school, but Akio pretty much sends Mikage out on his own. Has he matured in the same way? I doubt it. If it's perfectly within Akio to boot out completely insane people into the real world because their use is spent...what does that say for our duelists? Anyone else? I've always wondered how one defines where the world begins and Akio's reality ends...it's another thread, though. I just question sometimes how different the two are.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#12 | Back to Top01-15-2007 08:23:34 AM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

As a side note, a fun point about Mikage is how short, (read: of normal height for a Japanese male,) he is compared to the basketball player-like heights of the other young men on campus. I think Utena might be a bit taller than him by an inch. So, every time we see him with another person, he's specifically placed so that he might seem taller. With Saionji, we have Saionji kneeling on the floor, while Mikage is sitting on a chair. I find that amusing. emot-biggrin

Addressing points seemingly at random:

Mikage's 'graduation' did seem more like Akio booting him out after he lost his use, rather than him maturing enough to leave campus on his own in any case. I thought of Akio's 'reality' spread diffusely through the town Ohtori is located in, getting more concentrated toward the school in the center. Then again, it seems to be portable, since Nanami seemed to make it to India with all the crazy Ohtori factors in tow. (Unless you speculate she didn't really leave the campus at all.) Also, it seems to be pretty much linked to the mind, so someone breaking free from it on their own by maturing into an adult is pretty much free of it, whether on the campus or not.

As for whether the sacrifice really happened or not, I think it did. We see it in a jumbled-up, vague way because it happened a long time ago, and because that's the nature of events on good old Ohtori, where students 'graduate' and no one remembers them after they leave. I think Nemuro really did set a fire, possibly with the goodwill of Anthy!Mamiya, and Akio managed to have it passed off as bad electrical wiring or something. As for Akio creating an entire society around Mikage, that really is an impressive display of power. The building illusion and history was probably the 'implanted' knowledge by Akio, and I think the Mikage seminar itself began and started to flourish over a period of weeks. Although, it would have been pretty amazing if it was a 'wham-bam' effect and miraculously occured overnight.

I didn't notice his ring turning black. I MUST GO WATCH THAT EPISODE NOW. emot-gonk


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#13 | Back to Top01-15-2007 01:02:34 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Ivy-chan wrote:

As a side note, a fun point about Mikage is how short, (read: of normal height for a Japanese male,) he is compared to the basketball player-like heights of the other young men on campus. I think Utena might be a bit taller than him by an inch. So, every time we see him with another person, he's specifically placed so that he might seem taller. With Saionji, we have Saionji kneeling on the floor, while Mikage is sitting on a chair. I find that amusing. emot-biggrin

If I am remembering a picture I saw at one stage correctly -- it was a height chart, and I imagine it is somewhere at Empty Movement; if I wasn't such a lazy whore I'd go and find it -- Utena and Mikage are actually supposed to be the same height; it was a reflection of the fact that they are supposed to be "equals" of a sort, with Mikage as the shadow and Utena as the light source. However, I can think offhand of at least one scene where their heights show disparity. Hmm. But I agree, Mikage tends to sit back and relax suggestively around people (or sit foward in a predatory fashion), and though this puts him at a lower level the way he uses it gives the power to him. It's also kind of amusing, being as he's the one who brings people down to his level through the elevator and then sends them back up changed into what he requires them to be.

Ivy-chan wrote:

Mikage's 'graduation' did seem more like Akio booting him out after he lost his use, rather than him maturing enough to leave campus on his own in any case. I thought of Akio's 'reality' spread diffusely through the town Ohtori is located in, getting more concentrated toward the school in the center. Then again, it seems to be portable, since Nanami seemed to make it to India with all the crazy Ohtori factors in tow. (Unless you speculate she didn't really leave the campus at all.) Also, it seems to be pretty much linked to the mind, so someone breaking free from it on their own by maturing into an adult is pretty much free of it, whether on the campus or not.

I really, really wonder what happened to him. This is where I swing between the "was he dead and when he was "graduated" he just got laid to rest?" or "was he expelled into the real world and just expected to get on with his life?" schools of thought, neither of which sit quite right with me. I admit I am charmed by the thought that when Nemuro re-enters the real world he does so at his correct age, as it was only the influences of Ohtori that held him static at the younger age, but...honestly, I can't conclude anything really solid from the information we're given. emot-gonk I can theorise, but little else...

Giovanna wrote:

The result becomes stunted psychosexual development of the sort that would leave Nemuro with a very ambiguous internal idea of women. His mother was never emotionally defined on her own. Couple this with what probably wasn't the most active sex life, and Nemuro's experiences haven't provided him with a solid difference between 'mother' and 'lover'. (We view his walking in on her with Akio as traumatic in the way it would be to walk in on your lover with someone else. Keep in mind the strangely possessive shitfit a lot of boys throw the first time they catch their mother's screwing.) This leaves Mamiya as an ambiguous son/brother to him. How it becomes sexual? I think the seed is there from the beginning because again, sexuality isn't a concept that's defined itself for Nemuro, so he's never sorted out where or when it would apply. I agree though that it became truly sexual when Anthy came along.

Akio and Anthy place her as Mamiya because he needed something close to what he wanted without being what he wanted; she couldn't appear as Tokiko and have it work. (Mamiya's also the target of the protective impulse driving him.) Like Clarice says, it becomes sexual because that's just how Akio rolls, and because it loosened Nemuro up a little, and because it was always latent as a possibility anyway.

I definitely agree with that -- and I find the thought of his flipping out over the Akio/Tokiko thing as compared to the Oedipus complex quite fascinating. emot-tongue I also like the idea that Nemuro really didn't know how on earth to take his feelings for Mamiya and hence why this turned into something sexual later; I doubt that it would have done that in the natural course of things, but the ambiguity of it certainly opened up a viable window for Akio and Anthy to climb through. Which interests me; I can't decide if Akio does this because sex is a useful tool, or because he personally sees it as a binding bond between two people. I then start to wonder what this says about his sexual relationship with Anthy. Damn these tangents, brain!

Giovanna wrote:

Tell me about it, I cry like a bitch. emot-gonk But I think it's also the one Mikage was most invested in. Keiko's, the only one after, is pretty self-orchestrating, he doesn't put his foot out to trip events at all. I got the impression he thought Wakaba would be his best shot, and pulled the most strings to accomplish it. At least he's a man of his word; he could have as soon not done what he'd promised Saionji. Odd scene that, how he manages to sit five feet from Saionji without him noticing. Also, that shot is on my list for the body language thread. emot-smile

I shall look forward to that. emot-biggrin It's one of my favourite random-as-fuck moments from Mikage, him just turning up in Wakaba's dorm room like that (because one would sincerely hope that's not a frequent habit of his...damn, no wonder he's so popular on campus, emot-tongue). It was that moment, actually, that first made me wonder if Mikage was actually some sort of ghost...which he kind of is anyway, but about then I started thinking to myself "Er, what is the DEAL with this guy?" Because even for SKU, that's a pretty whacky thing to be able to do at will.

Giovanna wrote:

I also wonder about Mikage 'graduating'. It's such a big deal for Utena to leave the school, but Akio pretty much sends Mikage out on his own. Has he matured in the same way? I doubt it. If it's perfectly within Akio to boot out completely insane people into the real world because their use is spent...what does that say for our duelists? Anyone else? I've always wondered how one defines where the world begins and Akio's reality ends...it's another thread, though. I just question sometimes how different the two are.

I tend to think that it bodes ill for the duellists -- although they are still in the school at the end of the series, I don't think it's just because they haven't matured enough to leave, it's because Akio doesn't toss his pawns out of the game until he needs to sacrifice them for a reason. He lets the occasional wildcard in -- which is what I believe Ruka was -- but until people have no use, he'll keep them. Nemuro's use was over, and so he was so politely asked to leave the school. What happened to him outside is anyone's guess. emot-frown


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#14 | Back to Top01-15-2007 09:09:23 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Clarice wrote:

It's one of my favourite random-as-fuck moments from Mikage, him just turning up in Wakaba's dorm room like that (because one would sincerely hope that's not a frequent habit of his...damn, no wonder he's so popular on campus, emot-tongue). It was that moment, actually, that first made me wonder if Mikage was actually some sort of ghost...which he kind of is anyway, but about then I started thinking to myself "Er, what is the DEAL with this guy?" Because even for SKU, that's a pretty whacky thing to be able to do at will.

Totally agreed. I can see that it's possible that he has a universal key for the dorm rooms, which would also explain his ability to enter Shiori's room to leave her Juri's locket. His astounding stealth could be attributed to Mamiya, or Saionji could have just been extremely focused and did not notice him quietly approaching. Possibly both!

Giovanna wrote:

I tend to think that it bodes ill for the duellists -- although they are still in the school at the end of the series, I don't think it's just because they haven't matured enough to leave, it's because Akio doesn't toss his pawns out of the game until he needs to sacrifice them for a reason. He lets the occasional wildcard in -- which is what I believe Ruka was -- but until people have no use, he'll keep them. Nemuro's use was over, and so he was so politely asked to leave the school. What happened to him outside is anyone's guess. emot-frown

I also like to believe that some sort of crystalizing Ohtori factor kept his physical aging completely static while he stayed, and he basically left on his own two feet after Akio told him, in his own way, he was no longer welcome to stay at the school. This leaves him essentially stranded, as he has no way to pick up where he left off in his old life, what parents he would have had are very old or dead, and any resources he had would have been gone by now. I just don't like the idea that all his years caught up with him and he underwent abrupt physical deterioration as well, like Rip Van Winkle. It seems a little too much, but I wouldn't put it past Akio.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#15 | Back to Top01-15-2007 09:11:18 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Clarice asked:
How tall is Mikage?

SKU Characters Height from Tallest to Shortest in feet and inches.
Ohtori Akio = 6ft 7in
Tsuchiya Ruka = 6ft 6in
Kiryuu Touga = 6ft 4in
Saionji Kyouichi = 6ft 4in
Ohtori Kanae = 5ft 7in
Arisugawa Juri = 5ft 7in
Tenjou Utena = 5ft 5in
Mikage Souji = 5ft 5in

Takatsuki Shiori = 5ft 4in
Kaoru Miki = 5ft 3in
Kaoru Kozue = 5ft 3in
Kiryuu Nanami = 5ft 2in
Shinohara Wakaba = 5ft 1in
Himemiya Anthy = 5ft 0in
Sonoda Keiko = 5ft 0in
Tsuwabuki Mitsuru = 4ft 1in

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#16 | Back to Top01-15-2007 09:22:56 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

http://akio.ohtori.nu/images/12_oralsex.jpg

I'm Utena's height. Which is better than being Anthy's height, but I guess he better sit on the couch for this...

Ahem. I find it odd Touga and Saionji tower over Mikage though he's older. But then, different specialties. Between his height and the glasses and the being a gigantic nerd, I really get the impression Nemuro must have been picked on mercilessly as a kid. His personality is so vehemently closed off in the flashbacks, and that's not a natural course of development even for a genius.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#17 | Back to Top01-16-2007 07:50:50 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Tamago wrote:

Clarice asked:
How tall is Mikage?

SKU Characters Height from Tallest to Shortest in feet and inches.
Ohtori Akio = 6ft 7in
Tsuchiya Ruka = 6ft 6in
Kiryuu Touga = 6ft 4in
Saionji Kyouichi = 6ft 4in
Ohtori Kanae = 5ft 7in
Arisugawa Juri = 5ft 7in
Tenjou Utena = 5ft 5in
Mikage Souji = 5ft 5in

Takatsuki Shiori = 5ft 4in
Kaoru Miki = 5ft 3in
Kaoru Kozue = 5ft 3in
Kiryuu Nanami = 5ft 2in
Shinohara Wakaba = 5ft 1in
Himemiya Anthy = 5ft 0in
Sonoda Keiko = 5ft 0in
Tsuwabuki Mitsuru = 4ft 1in

Does anybody know how much is that in cm? emot-gonk

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#18 | Back to Top01-16-2007 08:03:31 AM

iruka
Rose Smilee
Registered: 11-11-2006
Posts: 134

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Does anybody know how much is that in cm? emot-gonk

According to this, 5.5 feet is 167cm. emot-biggrin I think that's around my height...

Anthy is 152cm. That's really short, I had no idea...

Oh lord Akio is 204cm! emot-gonk



Certain parts of the world really ought to get civilised and start using the metric system. emot-tongue

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#19 | Back to Top01-16-2007 08:05:50 AM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

I find feet easier. emot-biggrin

Meanwhile, I'm Juri and Kanae's height! Whee!


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#20 | Back to Top01-16-2007 08:17:33 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

iruka wrote:

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Does anybody know how much is that in cm? emot-gonk

According to this, 5.5 feet is 167cm. emot-biggrin I think that's around my height...

Anthy is 152cm. That's really short, I had no idea...

Oh lord Akio is 204cm! emot-gonk

You know.. my history teacher (who is 72 years old), it's 2,04 too emot-gonk my height it's 1'64 cm D: i'm like... Miki? DAMN I'M A PITUFO >____<!!


Ivy-chan wrote:

I find feet easier. emot-biggrin

u_u i find cm much easier ;_;

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#21 | Back to Top01-16-2007 09:00:53 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Back on topic!!

Clarice wrote:

I definitely agree with that -- and I find the thought of his flipping out over the Akio/Tokiko thing as compared to the Oedipus complex quite fascinating. emot-tongue I also like the idea that Nemuro really didn't know how on earth to take his feelings for Mamiya and hence why this turned into something sexual later; I doubt that it would have done that in the natural course of things, but the ambiguity of it certainly opened up a viable window for Akio and Anthy to climb through. Which interests me; I can't decide if Akio does this because sex is a useful tool, or because he personally sees it as a binding bond between two people. I then start to wonder what this says about his sexual relationship with Anthy. Damn these tangents, brain!

For Akio I would imagine it's a bit of both, though more that it is a useful tool. Or at least, it's the tool he prefers. There are many little schemes of his in the series, most of the revolve around sex somehow, when the same ends could be achieved by other means. It's just sex is his preferred medium. Why that is...well what's more adult than sex, huh? If you're a psychologically stunted boy in a man's body striving to be as adultlike as possible, what're you likely to decide is the best thing for that? (Oh oh, let's contrast to Tsuwabuki, who isn't sexually aware because he's a boy still in a boy's body wanting to be an adult.)

And Mikage...well for god's sake with all the school-freud in this series how can we skip an obvious Oedipus opportunity. emot-biggrin Mikage is probably the second best example (after Akio) of a theme that shows itself repeatedly in the series. SKU keeps emotional maturity way far apart from every other kind of maturity, and values it far higher. Mikage looks far older than he is, even though he's short. Really, by how he acts, moves, talks...we easily forget he's only supposed to be what...a year older than Touga and Saionji? His genius fuels much of this, but in the end he's got the emotional maturity of a little kid, still confusing his idea of women as mothers and sex objects.

I wonder, though, has Mikage deteriorated in a full-blown pedophile? His sexuality has become so warped, and Mamiya isn't the only suggestion of him wanting to stick his peener in a young boy. See: First post in my body language thread...I think he wouldn't have minded rolling around a bit with Miki. If you want to really split hairs, he gives a strange look to Tsuwabuki, though I can explain that with different reasons....


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#22 | Back to Top01-16-2007 09:22:35 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Giovanna wrote:

If you want to really split hairs, he gives a strange look to Tsuwabuki, though I can explain that with different reasons....

Do tell! (when you have time)

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#23 | Back to Top01-16-2007 02:18:46 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Hmm...I'm about 6' 1"...3 inches shorter than Touga and Saionji - damn those people are tall...


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#24 | Back to Top01-16-2007 02:28:57 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

I'm Kozue's height.

...

So. Who wants to come 'round my place Saturday night? school-devil


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#25 | Back to Top01-16-2007 08:12:42 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Nemuro/Mikage and Mamiya's Relationship(s)

Clarice wrote:

I'm Kozue's height.

...

So. Who wants to come 'round my place Saturday night? school-devil

But... that would mean you're also Miki's height, and Miki at this stage of the game isn't someone I'd go to for an evening's romp emot-wink

Anyway, Giovanna, you must explain the look you are referencing, please.

Last edited by A Day Without Me (01-16-2007 08:12:50 PM)


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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