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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top09-05-2013 10:01:54 AM

whyknot
New Student
Registered: 07-21-2013
Posts: 8

Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

I found this awesome essay about the historical context behind Utena yesterday:
http://geekykristie.tumblr.com/post/926 … art-series
http://geekykristie.tumblr.com/post/358 … t-two-of-a

I don't think this essay has been posted on here yet. Nor have I found any discussions about the historical background behind Utena? Then again, I'm new to this forum, so forgive me if this has already been covered. But I think this is worth bringing up again.

It talks about gender role of shojo in the newly westernized Meiji Japan, and the following generation's reaction to that idea in 1960's shojo media. It also looks at the intrapersonal conflicts in Utena as conflicts between the Japanese ideas of tatemae(public face/social obligations) vs. honne(true self)

It's really enlightening and I hope y'all enjoy it as much as I did emot-smile

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#2 | Back to Top09-05-2013 10:14:22 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Holy this Tumblr poster knows her stuff!

Revolutionary Girl Utena is a franchise where Westerners often assume the two main characters Utena Tenjou and Anthy Himemiya are lesbians when the truth of the matter is that they are engaging in a doesiai relationship, particularly within the manga and TV series. In Adolescence of Utena their relationship is hard to argue as not being sexual – but again the film is a fannish re-imaging of the TV series.

Word the whole thing.

Thanks for sharing, whyknot!

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-05-2013 10:15:09 AM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#3 | Back to Top09-05-2013 01:23:05 PM

Kita-Ysabell
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Registered: 11-18-2012
Posts: 818
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

The first entry is excellent, and I wish the second half were as intellectually rigorous, but overall, it's a great essay/pair of essays!

But that font... ugh.


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#4 | Back to Top09-05-2013 05:12:04 PM

Raze Occam
New Student
Registered: 09-04-2013
Posts: 5

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Ah, coming up against people who've gotten degrees in things you've only briefly studied...

I've always wanted to see someone go super in-depth into the culture and history that influenced Utena and that was an absolutely fantastic interpretation/explanation. She obviously knows her shit. etc-love


"It's a show about penguins"

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#5 | Back to Top09-05-2013 05:28:04 PM

HonorableShadow
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From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 471
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

The first entry is excellent, and I wish the second half were as intellectually rigorous, but overall, it's a great essay/pair of essays!

But that font... ugh.

I just copied and pasted it over to a word document because their gif was giving me a headache as I tried to read.

But I loved the essay!


Rose tint my world...
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain.

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#6 | Back to Top09-07-2013 08:17:39 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Holy this Tumblr poster knows her stuff!

Revolutionary Girl Utena is a franchise where Westerners often assume the two main characters Utena Tenjou and Anthy Himemiya are lesbians when the truth of the matter is that they are engaging in a doesiai relationship, particularly within the manga and TV series. In Adolescence of Utena their relationship is hard to argue as not being sexual – but again the film is a fannish re-imaging of the TV series.

Word the whole thing.

Thanks for sharing, whyknot!

Except that Ikuhara has referred to their relationship as lesbian in interviews and has stated for the record that the movie is what their relationship always should've been in the TV series. Keep up with that heteronormative wishful thinking, though! emot-rolleyes

Yuri are titles that capitalize on overly fantasied and intentionally unrealistic depictions of (usually) sexual female relationships primarily marketed for male consumption. That is not to say gay men or lesbians cannot enjoy yaoi or yuri, or vice versa and any and everything in between - but they are in no way seen as genuine depictions of homosexuality in Japan by the Japanese public and as such should not be seen as insights or stories “about homosexuality” anywhere else.

This is also completely untrue. The primary demographic for yuri is female. Yuri Hime, the flagship yuri manga periodical, is and has always been marketed toward females, and many yuri artists are both a) women, and b) lesbians or bisexuals themselves. There are many true-to-life stories of female/female romance within the genre that definitely provide "insight" into the lives of lesbians in Japan.

To clinch the matter, the lesbian magazine Anise, which the article describes as "the most popular lesbian magazine in Japan"...ran from 1996-2003. This article and its opinions about yuri are thoroughly outdated, as further proven by the incorrect and now-obsolete Western notion that yuri was "usually sexual" in nature. That is not and has never been its connotation in Japan.

...and so it is that, even fourteen years later, the same struggle against endlessly recycled misinformation and the baseless, self-satisfying attempts to twist and whitewash Utena and Anthy's romance into something else must still continue. Will it ever end, I wonder?

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 10:06:17 AM)

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#7 | Back to Top09-07-2013 08:52:55 AM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Aelanie wrote:

Except that Ikuhara has referred to their relationship as lesbian in interviews and has stated for the record that the movie is what their relationship always should've been in the TV series. Keep up with that heteronormative wishful thinking, though! emot-rolleyes

Because Ikuhara is totally trustworthy, 100% of the time, and was the only creative force behind SKU. emot-rolleyes

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#8 | Back to Top09-07-2013 08:59:07 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Atropos wrote:

Aelanie wrote:

Except that Ikuhara has referred to their relationship as lesbian in interviews and has stated for the record that the movie is what their relationship always should've been in the TV series. Keep up with that heteronormative wishful thinking, though! emot-rolleyes

Because Ikuhara is totally trustworthy, 100% of the time, and was the only creative force behind SKU. emot-rolleyes

That's your rebuttal, really? Calling the project leader untrustworthy enough that you can safely ignore his repeatedly stated position, and implying I said things I never did about the creative staff? How do know he isn't giving voice to the concensus opinion? You don't. This is just more of the same old self-justifications. You want to believe what you want to believe, so you'll bend facts as far as you can and simply ignore the ones you can't.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 09:03:34 AM)

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#9 | Back to Top09-07-2013 09:16:35 AM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Aelanie wrote:

That's your rebuttal, really? Calling the project leader untrustworthy enough that you can safely ignore his repeatedly stated position, and implying I said things I never did about the creative staff? How do know he isn't giving voice to the concensus opinion? You don't. This is just more of the same old self-justifications. You want to believe what you want to believe, so you'll bend facts as far as you can and simply ignore the ones you can't.

Hey, man, I never said a thing about U/A or whatever. How about you just cool down, maybe get a drink of water? The forum ain't going anywhere.

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#10 | Back to Top09-07-2013 09:21:07 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

What - other than "I want to dismiss it, but don't have a good reason to on hand" - does "the film is a fannish re-imaging of the TV series" mean in context?

There's some interesting material compiled there (and the asides are entertaining, if sometimes esoteric), but the conclusions and the emphases seem off, to me, in several places, not the least of which is prizing a 19th Century definition of a term over its contemporary usage. Also suspicious, is the pretense that girls and young women in Japan were only effected by the late 19th Century wave of repression as Japan attempted to integrate foreign (western and other) styles and technologies, while also appealing to vocal European mores (hence the sudden illegality of explicit homosexual behaviors and cohabitations of women and of men). This, before the meat and potatoes are even reached.

"More so than their visual style, the 49ers also brought with them wave after wave of controversies..." seems to want to say that the controversies were more significant than the visual styles developed by those authors, but it's not what it says and I'd suggest it'd be a false equivalence, in any case, as yes, something like Moto Hagio's more notable visual and narrative techniques are major developments in manga, and in comics globally. (And, no, Moto Hagio wasn't making strides in yaoi, a term which did not yet exist and does not, in particular, represent her work very well at all.)

Bara, as with Shojo, in this context aren't so much genres (or mega-genres) as they are directions for shelving the product. Manga done by a woman doesn't necessarily go in one or the other, or another entirely, but manga aimed primarily at one audience or the other is shelved and marketed together, the same way products aimed primarily at children are shelved together, or products aimed primarily at women or men are shelved together in a grocery store. Men's deodorant is not typically stocked beside tampons, with GI Joe, My Little Pony, and rotisserie chicken filling out the rest of the aisle. That's not the kind of policing the author of the essay seems to want, but the kind they're looking for isn't to be found so universally. Markets are an exchange, not diktats. Bara cannot police true gay masculinity any more than boy's love can be pigeon-holed as safe-proxy escapism fit only for socially-constrained young women. That's just silly.

In the actual essay, statements like "the comic book is unfiltered shojo material" are more dismissive than they are useful analytically. It's a way to remove material the author seems to be less interested in discussing, but she could do that much more honestly by just saying she wants to focus on the material that does interest her. Presenting a reductive and, in my opinion, misleading portrait of the material just to remove it from further consideration is weak.

"The film is a fannish re-imaging of the TV series" apparently means, "the film re-envisions the TV series through the perspective of how the majority of the fans chose to interpret the material. "The perspective of how"? No, that's just "how." Adding "perspective" there is just stretching it out and devalorizing that "how." "Chose to interpret"? No, they interpret it that way or they don't. It is not necessarily a choice, any more than another understanding is a choice. Again, these are just ways to stretch the thing out and to be dismissive regarding positions the author does not share. But, then, do "the fans" share them?

Show of hands: Who watched the TV series and thought movie-Akio is what Akio has to really be like? Who watched it and thought "Touga must, truly, be dead, and he's really a nice, nice guy. And that Miki, when will his sister stop trying to make them both live in the past as a happy pair of locked at the hips children?"

I love movie Akio. I'm frilly-shirted Tou! boy's one true fan. Even I know that the majority of Utena fans, in Japan, outside Japan, anywhere, don't watch that TV show and come out with movie Akio in their brain.

It feels odd to even have to put this into words, but, "Utena relies on the strength and importance of pre-War shojo and doesiai" is bullshit. If it relied on those things, all markets, including the young girls to whom it was originally marketed, would require a full understanding of those historical positions, and please, think back to what you understood of 19th Century gender and sex roles in 1894 when you were age twelve to fifteen. While those historical modes may inform some scene or ambience in SKU, and maybe they do, the show isn't reliant on them or it would have failed, because too few people would be interested in that kind of historic ethnography, brightly animated, with a monkey in a necktie. It might be reliant on 1990s' (Japanese) gender and sex roles, but not 1890s'. I just don't see it.

That it's a pre-War and post-War statement or concern is silly, and the idea ignores the kinds of strides that were being made not only post-post-War (despite bringing up the 49ers), but also, pre-reform-and-repression Japan, and the kinds of developments occuring in Utena and alongside Utena, in regards to animation aimed at girls in Japan and the progression of the magical girl genre and the cross-dressing knight trope.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#11 | Back to Top09-07-2013 09:22:51 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Atropos wrote:

Hey, man, I never said a thing about U/A or whatever. How about you just cool down, maybe get a drink of water? The forum ain't going anywhere.

I'm not a man, thanks, and since you have no substantive reply to make, posting merely to condescend to me was needless.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

What - other than "I want to dismiss it, but don't have a good reason to on hand" - does "the film is a fannish re-imaging of the TV series" mean in context?

Precisely. Just as with Utena and Anthy, people dismiss the movie as a whole, not because they have sound basis to do so, but simply because they dislike it for not conforming closely enough to their own personal notions of how it ought to have been.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 10:20:45 AM)

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#12 | Back to Top09-07-2013 09:26:27 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Aelanie, Atropos, let's let this one drop, and chill, yeah?

But, please, everyone, keep comments geared towards moving the discussion forward or into interesting places, not on each other or Ikuhara's potential untrustworthiness unless it's functionally relating to the discussion.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#13 | Back to Top09-07-2013 10:16:51 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

I agree with the movie being 'fannish' like the article says.  It is IMHO the show re-designed to become far more fan-pleasing than its original incarnation - at the cost of oversimplifying/contorting complex characters while deviating points/facts from what's in the TV canon.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Show of hands: Who watched the TV series and thought movie-Akio is what Akio has to really be like?

Unfortunately, that'd be almost every non-Alan Harnum, non Sharni fanfic writer we got out there.  The vast majority of fanfics almost always depict Akio as this unintelligent, loud-mouthed paper tiger that Anthy, Utena and other characters could crumble and destroy simply by wanting to, with little planning/effort on the heros/heroines' part.  In the TV canon, Anthy could leave Akio if she wants to, but she is never shown capable of destroying someone of his cunningness and power at whim.  In most fanfics Anthy could kill/erase Akio with little effort . . . much like how it was in the movie.

Who watched it and thought "Touga must, truly, be dead, and he's really a nice, nice guy.

Ignoring the symbolic death thing (partly a device to make him non-present and thus no threat to UtenaXAnthy fans IMHO), I can't even count the numbers of fics out there where the writer skips over Touga's dark, selfish character (shown throughout much of the TV show), and just uses him as Utena's manipulative, sexy, not really that evil love interest - just like he was in that movie.

And that Miki, when will his sister stop trying to make them both live in the past as a happy pair of locked at the hips children?"

This sums up like all the Fic!Kozue scenes I've ever come across.

It feels odd to even have to put this into words, but, "Utena relies on the strength and importance of pre-War shojo and doesiai" is bullshit.

A better-worded way of putting it would be 'understanding' of Utena relies a lot on the Japanese audiences' familarity with classic shojo and doesiai from the older era, down to those 70s 80s classic like The Rose of Versailles.  It's eventual cult status relies on other things (as discussed below).

If it relied on those things, all markets, including the young girls to whom it was originally marketed, would require a full understanding of those historical positions

Which is why non-asian fans of the show often interpret the prince/princess/witch roles in SKU far differently than those asian fans who grew up on classic shoujo and the presentations of such roles in manga/anime.

and please, think back to what you understood of 19th Century gender and sex roles in 1894 when you were age twelve to fifteen.

I've since read the Rose of Versailles, the Songs of Winds and Trees, and translation of the Dangerous Liasions at 13 . . . but that's because I was asian growing up surrounded by such works prominent in the media. 

I'm not saying the Japanese teens in the 90s will all know correctly what 19th Century gender and sex roles in 1894 - but that they do know a skewered version of it from their exposure to those many manga/anime depicting a shoujo-ised version such eras. It's like most of them do not know the true samurai lifestyle, but most will know skewered versions of it from anime/manga/tv shows.

While those historical modes may inform some scene or ambience in SKU, and maybe they do, the show isn't reliant on them or it would have failed, because too few people would be interested in that kind of historic ethnography, brightly animated, with a monkey in a necktie. It might be reliant on 1990s' (Japanese) gender and sex roles, but not 1890s'. I just don't see it.

The show did not fail because its female empowering themes - plus the queer elements prominent in classic shoujos - attracts Asian and non-Asian teens alike.  That's why many non-asian fans still find things to like about it even after having blatantly mis-interpretate the plot, characters, and intent behind the symbolism (not saying 'all' non-asian fans misinterpret, just that 'many' do).   I doubt the average non-asian fan would interpret SKU in same way as the Japanese fans do.  For one thing, when asian audience see Utena going through the show getting herself romantically attracted to first Touga then Akio, neither of which she made much effort to hid from Anthy, plus her being supportive of the suitor-like Miki spending time together with Anthy,  they will usually see that what Utena does not see Anthy as a lover (since there're no jealousy/ possessiveness issues that couplehood entails).  Instead, Utena sees Anthy as an important soulmate of a close friend, and their realtionship won't change even after either of them got men in their lives (unless they ended up stealing each other's men, that is). The tumblr writer is spot on in calling Utena and Anthy's a doesiai relationship.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-07-2013 01:51:13 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#14 | Back to Top09-07-2013 03:03:48 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

I don't see the movie as a "fannish reimagining" at all; rather, I see it as a piss-take on the concepts and characters of the show - albeit a loving one. The exaggeration and simplification of characters is an inevitability of the movie format, but it also seems like a conscious decision - the characters are all exaggerations of their common fandom perceptions.

So Anthy becomes manipulative mentally and sexually; Saionji is a rabid maniac; Touga is a gorgeous and noble prince; Juri is a kind, tormented soul; Shiori is an evil haterbitch; Miki is an incestuous sociopath; and Akio is a pathetic rapist. Sorting through the dregs of SKU fanfic, this is exactly the characterization you're going to find - and it speaks to the brilliance of the Be-Papas team that they were able to make something interesting and beautiful with them.

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#15 | Back to Top09-07-2013 04:53:25 PM

Aelanie
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Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

http://www.rightstuf.com/rssite/nozomiE … tes/utena/

Interview With Kunihiko Ikuhara

Thank you to all of the awesome Utena fans who submitted more than 24 pages-worth of very thoughtful questions for Mr. Ikuhara. The completed Q&A is now available! Click the tabs to see if your questions were answered!

Q: Was there resistance to the movie's stronger romantic elements, and if so, how did you overcome it? - Cryssoberyl A.
A: No, there wasn't. I tried to do in the movie what I wasn't able to accomplish in the TV series.

Case closed. No resistance also means there was staff accord on how they should be portrayed, by the way.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 04:54:45 PM)

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#16 | Back to Top09-07-2013 05:26:17 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Atropos wrote:

Sorting through the dregs of SKU fanfic, this is exactly the characterization you're going to find

That movie really gave the fans what they want, eh?

Q: Was there resistance to the movie's stronger romantic elements, and if so, how did you overcome it? - Cryssoberyl A.
A: No, there wasn't. I tried to do in the movie what I wasn't able to accomplish in the TV series.

Yep.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-07-2013 05:29:49 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#17 | Back to Top09-07-2013 05:28:03 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Q: Was there resistance to the movie's stronger romantic elements, and if so, how did you overcome it? - Cryssoberyl A.
A: No, there wasn't. I tried to do in the movie what I wasn't able to accomplish in the TV series.

Yep.

Portraying them as an explicitly lesbian couple, as he wanted to do but couldn't in the TV series because of Saito Chiho, yep. Glad you finally came to your senses. I guess some people actually can allow incontrovertible facts to override their preconceived ideas. Good job, I'm proud of you.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 05:34:39 PM)

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#18 | Back to Top09-07-2013 05:34:30 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Posts: 1312
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Aelanie wrote:

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Q: Was there resistance to the movie's stronger romantic elements, and if so, how did you overcome it? - Cryssoberyl A.
A: No, there wasn't. I tried to do in the movie what I wasn't able to accomplish in the TV series.

Yep.

Portraying them as a lesbian couple, as he couldn't in the TV series because of Saito Chiho, yep. Glad you finally came to your senses.

That's what I and the tumblr poster were saying all along - that U & A were NOT portrayed as a lesbian couple in the TV series.  Whatever the reason behind it, that was how it happened for U&A 's good friends TV portrayal.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#19 | Back to Top09-07-2013 05:36:23 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Aelanie wrote:

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Yep.

Portraying them as a lesbian couple, as he couldn't in the TV series because of Saito Chiho, yep. Glad you finally came to your senses.

That's what I and the tumblr poster were saying all along - that U & A were NOT portrayed as a lesbian couple in the TV series.  Whatever the reason behind it, that was how it happened for U&A 's good friends TV portrayal.

As long as you acknowledge that it should've been, and only wasn't because of creative obstructionism, that's fine then. But you do realize that completely invalidates the mythology this article builds up around what their relationship means. Its only meaning is that they should've been a romantic couple but weren't allowed to be due to outside forces. There is no platonic "doseiai" heritage on display there, only a flanderization of homosexuality.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 05:42:42 PM)

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#20 | Back to Top09-07-2013 05:43:40 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Aelanie wrote:

As long as you acknowledge that it should've been, and only wasn't because of creative obstructionism, that's fine then. But you do realize that completely invalidates the mythology that article builds up around what their relationship means. Its only meaning is that they should've been a romantic couple but weren't allowed to be due to outside forces.

What "should've been" in SKU was neveer what I've entered this thread to talk about: my up posts are all solely focused on what "actually happens" in SKU. 

Also, I do believe someone owes me an apology for the following baseless accusation

Keep up with that heteronormative wishful thinking, though! emot-rolleyes


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#21 | Back to Top09-07-2013 05:47:52 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

I personally wonder if the medium had a much stronger influence than is usually considered. In Australian television, homosexual content automatically gets a higher rating. A heterosexual sex scene will often be rated the same or even lower than a chaste homosexual kiss. If this is the same with Japanese television, then the Akio sex scenes would have slipped by the censors much more easily than would a more graphic depiction than the romantic content between Anthy and Utena. Mind, this doesn't take into account the Akio/Touga/Saionji scenes. One wonders if yaoi content and yuri content are subject to different societal conventions in Japanese media.

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#22 | Back to Top09-07-2013 05:53:06 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

crystalwren wrote:

If this is the same with Japanese television, then the Akio sex scenes would have slipped by the censors much more easily than would a more graphic depiction than the romantic content between Anthy and Utena. Mind, this doesn't take into account the Akio/Touga/Saionji scenes. One wonders if yaoi content and yuri content are subject to different societal conventions in Japanese media.

As far as I know, in 90s Japan and Asia, it was yaoi that is considered more gritty/non-child safe than yuri.  Utena and Anthy not allowed to be blatant bisexuals in the TV show likely has more to do with fear of alienating  straight female anime TV watchers that was their main demographic.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-07-2013 05:54:09 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#23 | Back to Top09-07-2013 05:54:43 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

gorgeousshutin wrote:

What "should've been" in SKU was neveer what I've entered this thread to talk about: my up posts are all solely focused on what "actually happens" in SKU.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have gone along with the article in touting their relationship as descending from the deep heritage and cultural ritualism of doseiai, since you've just now admitted that was never the creative intention behind what we see on the screen.

Also, I do believe someone owes me an apology for the following baseless accusation

It was far from baseless. You're still attempting to draw a distinction between the intended meaning and what you've decided for yourself is actually on display.

However, as I've said, you have at least managed to admit to the intended meaning. Qualify it though you may - and you have - that's still a type of admission that you were incorrect. That's never an easy thing to do and commands respect, especially on the internet where doing so is usually entirely optional. So as far as that goes, you've gained some measure of respect from me, and that isn't something I award lightly.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 06:04:26 PM)

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#24 | Back to Top09-07-2013 06:04:03 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

Aelanie wrote:

Then perhaps you shouldn't have gone along with the article in touting their relationship as descending from the deep heritage and cultural ritualism of doseiai, since you've just now admitted that was never the creative intention behind what we see on the screen.

What's actually ended up being presented onscreen - the way the characters interact, the way its visually and aurally presented - do display strong influence from traditional doseiai works.  The poster was not wrong to say what they did, because they are analyzing the show from what's actually shown within the episodes themselves, without mentioning what Ikuhara did or did not intend for the show.

Nor do you have any right to slam your baseless accusations at that poster or myself, for that matter.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#25 | Back to Top09-07-2013 06:10:49 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Historical and socio-cultural context behind Utena

they are analyzing the show from what's actually shown within the episodes themselves

And arriving at incorrect conclusions due to their own biases, yes. Which, contrary your claim,

Nor do you have any right to slam your baseless accusations at that poster or myself,

I have every right to point out as such. If you found the manner in which I did so unpalatable, that is certainly my fault, but not something I intend to apologize for. As I say, you've already come away from this with a level of grudging respect from me. Don't ruin it by harping on about hurt feelings.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 06:14:59 PM)

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