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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top08-26-2013 09:53:52 PM

crystalwren
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Wild animals; Kozue and sex

So I've gone back and reread the thread on the possible sexual abuse of Touga (where I must state that I remain unconvinced) and I've been thinking that there's relatively little on Kozue and her attitude to sex and intimacy. I'd actually rate the chances of her being sexually abused rather higher than Touga. Also, would she be having full blown sexual encounters (before Akio that is; Akio eventually giving anyone the penor when he finally gets them alone is a forgone conclusion) or would she still be at the heavy petting stage? She seemed to have a very, very good grasp of what Miki's piano teacher was after, maybe rather too good considering her age.

So if she's been abused, who's likely to be the guilty culpret? Her parents? Or maybe someone who took advantage of her parent's absense?

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#2 | Back to Top08-26-2013 10:06:44 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

crystalwren wrote:

She seemed to have a very, very good grasp of what Miki's piano teacher was after, maybe rather too good considering her age.

So if she's been abused, who's likely to be the guilty culpret? Her parents? Or maybe someone who took advantage of her parent's absense?

Some talent agent the child star parent wannabes might've pushed their children towards, perhaps?


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#3 | Back to Top08-26-2013 10:09:46 PM

zevrem
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

Maybe that's why she was "sick" and couldn't play alongside Miki when she was a child. She just didn't want to deal with the bad man anymore.

I've read that a lot of "high risk" girls get into the criminal subculture because of childhood sexual abuse. Kozue's also the most "street-wise" of the characters, so yeah.


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#4 | Back to Top08-26-2013 10:11:59 PM

crystalwren
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From: Brisbane
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Some talent agent the child star parent wannabes might've pushed their children towards, perhaps?

It's quite possible.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the usual explanation for Kozue's parade of boyfriends is that she's trying to get Miki's attention, and certainly by the begining of the show that's true. But where did the behaviour start? How did she learn that it's is a great way of getting attention?


zevrem wrote:

Maybe that's why she was "sick" and couldn't play alongside Miki when she was a child. She just didn't want to deal with the bad man anymore.

Oh, I like this. I like this a lot. Maybe Kozue's lack of talent with the piano is simply lack of practice and abysmal self confidence.

Last edited by crystalwren (08-26-2013 10:13:41 PM)

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#5 | Back to Top08-26-2013 10:13:33 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

zevrem wrote:

Maybe that's why she was "sick" and couldn't play alongside Miki when she was a child. She just didn't want to deal with the bad man anymore.

I thought Miki was the one who got sick . . . OMG . . . emot-aaa

No wonder Kozue had been so deeply scarred by the concert.

Edited to add: Crystalwren, that behavior at her age (13) is a telling sign.  I think we can be fairly certain that chances of Kozue having been sexually abused is >= that of Tougaís.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (08-26-2013 10:21:53 PM)


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#6 | Back to Top08-26-2013 10:14:53 PM

zevrem
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

Wait nevermind. You're right, Miki was sick. I have not watched the whole series in a short period for years. I am a fraud. :'(


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#7 | Back to Top08-27-2013 11:59:37 AM

Giovanna
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychology has this to say about it. Kozue does actually fit more of these signs than Touga does, and presents as a much more text-book case. Miki actually presents with almost none of them.

I would say there's definitely a sense I've always had of the story that includes some sort of sexual interaction between the two of them, but thinking about it now and framing it in this terms, it raises the question of who learned these things, and from where? A part of me wants to go 'Oh hay what about that boy Kozue mentions that 'loved her piano playing?' That's way past reading too much into the script though. It's likely as not an adult in their family. Unfortunately that's usually where it is. And judging just by the courses of development between the two, Kozue would seem the one likely to have been abused, or at least more abused. Miki's trauma seems to center more on her directly, where she's textbook in almost all of her behavior.

I still think it's entirely possible Touga may have been abused. He's had several more years to develop his walls around such trauma, where Kozue is very, very young to be acting as 'adult' as she does. It always kind of creeped me out how easily she 'goes on a date' with Akio, who is pretty much in the for the kill as soon as they are in the same frame. This is...expected, by her, where most would at least have to register that his intent may be different from other grownups. She just assumes the adult in her presence wants sex. Not good.


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#8 | Back to Top08-27-2013 12:12:16 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

More thoughts on this.

Unless Kozue's parents are outwardly sexual even in front of their children,  and that they're an aggressive predatory female + passive, self-denial-prone male combo, I really don't see how the girl can act/react they way she does unless having undergone direct sex abuses.


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#9 | Back to Top08-27-2013 01:21:09 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Unless Kozue's parents are outwardly sexual even in front of their children,  and that they're an aggressive predatory female + passive, self-denial-prone male combo, I really don't see how the girl can act/react they way she does unless having undergone direct sex abuses.

She could watch a lot of TV.

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#10 | Back to Top08-27-2013 01:31:13 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

Giovanna wrote:

She just assumes the adult in her presence wants sex. Not good.

You know, I had always assumed Miki's piano teacher was a creep like we see from Kozue's eyes, but I read a post on tumblr saying that it could just be her perception, as we are literally seeing it in her eyes. And, well... I could see it either way, but it occurred to me that, yeah. If she is prone to going for that assumption, that is pretty telling of her view on adults.

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#11 | Back to Top08-27-2013 02:07:24 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

Atropos wrote:

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Unless Kozue's parents are outwardly sexual even in front of their children,  and that they're an aggressive predatory female + passive, self-denial-prone male combo, I really don't see how the girl can act/react they way she does unless having undergone direct sex abuses.

She could watch a lot of TV.

If she could understand the nuances of sexual undertones - as she called the music teach on being a perv - simply from watching TV, then she really is more of a natural born genius than even Miki.


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#12 | Back to Top08-27-2013 02:11:48 PM

Atropos
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From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

^ Maybe I'm overly cynical about depictions of relationships in the media.

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#13 | Back to Top08-28-2013 09:47:02 AM

Riri-kins
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

It's my personal canon that she was abused by her father and he threatened to do the same to Miki if she didn't obey him. Incest is no big deal to Kozue and that's a red flag.


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#14 | Back to Top08-28-2013 12:34:07 PM

zevrem
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

gorgeousshutin wrote:

More thoughts on this.

Unless Kozue's parents are outwardly sexual even in front of their children,  and that they're an aggressive predatory female + passive, self-denial-prone male combo, I really don't see how the girl can act/react they way she does unless having undergone direct sex abuses.

Didn't Miki/Kozue's dad have an affair with one of their teachers or something? That doesn't sound very self-denial-prone.


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#15 | Back to Top08-28-2013 01:14:47 PM

satyreyes
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

@zev: Well, Mr. Kaoru does, uh, marry Anthy???  I wonder if there's anything in that for us.

So if I want to wank furiously into the text, maybe I can make something up.  I postulate (as many have done before me) that Anthy is not literally Mr. Kaoru's fiancee; it's just that for some reason, when he's imagining who his father is marrying, Miki imagines Anthy.  That's interesting in the context of this thread, isn't it?  Miki thinks it would be natural for his father to marry someone like Anthy, whom he himself has a crush on.  Can we conclude that Miki identifies with his father?  Many boys his age do.

Miki is pretty repressed and probably does have some issues surrounding sex.  The conventional wisdom about him seems to be that he's abnormally repressed.  I don't know if that's true; what do you child development people think?  Yet he's not dumb about sex.  At thirteen he already knows an implicitly sexual situation when he's in one, possibly better than I do at twenty-nine.  So if he is precocious but in denial, then maybe that's a result of the same situation that made Kozue into who she is.  Can we imagine a scenario in the early Kaoru household where Mr. Kaoru abuses Kozue, and Miki knows about it -- saw it, heard it happening, inferred it?  Miki is a moralist and would know that what's happening is wrong, but would feel he couldn't help.

So if I'm Miki in this scenario, maybe I close off sexually precisely because I identify with my dad.  Doubly so if I had an early sexual experience with my sister (maybe as a result of her play-acting with me what Dad did to her?), because in my head that means that I'm attracted to her, even if I'm not.  In order to not be like Dad -- in order to protect my sister from myself -- I have to deny my own sexuality.  And if my sister seems to be coming on to me, or trying to get my attention in a way that's colored with sex, I have to react with as much disgust for her behavior as I can muster.  I don't understand her mentality as an abuse survivor; all I know is that I'm doing my best to be different from him, and here's my sister actively encouraging me to be the same, when I know goddamn well that's wrong.  So I absolutely get into this headspace where I feel misplaced contempt for her, and maybe even fear being alone with her because of what might happen.

So there's a theory hypothesis bunch of crap I just made up that could maybe explain both Miki and Kozue in terms of the same incident or series of incidents.  What do we think?  Also, Yasha, implement strikethrough tags.  emot-tongue

Last edited by satyreyes (08-28-2013 01:33:24 PM)

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#16 | Back to Top08-28-2013 02:31:41 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

satyreyes wrote:

@zev: Well, Mr. Kaoru does, uh, marry Anthy???  I wonder if there's anything in that for us.

So if I want to wank furiously into the text, maybe I can make something up.  I postulate (as many have done before me) that Anthy is not literally Mr. Kaoru's fiancee; it's just that for some reason, when he's imagining who his father is marrying, Miki imagines Anthy.

The editing makes it seem (to me, anyway) like Anthy appeared in the audienceís POV and not Mikiís, thus why my headcanon is that Mr. Kaoru was getting the Mikage mindfuck treatment from Anthy (other valid possibilities exist too, of course); even if the man thinks heís about to marry  a teen girl, I doubt heíd saw her as one wearing a theatrical red dress.   That kind of mindfuck seem only possible if the person is denial prone; in retrospect, I should write reality-denial instead of self-denial, which is more what Iím trying to say.

And when I say Miki is denial prone, Iím referring to his flat out denial of a few things - Kozueís blatant sexual attraction towards him, his possible attraction towards her, along with his parents flat out abandoning of the siblings. 

I mean, in their black rose ep, Kozue tried kissing him sexually right before seizing his sword.  And, right after the duel, Miki was already kissing her (chastely?) on the bed like nothing sexually awkward just happened between them earlier in the day (incest?  What incest?).  As for Miki insisting their parents care, when they're just distant mom + dad who remarries knowing it will trouble his daughter, that's plain denial of reality at work.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (08-28-2013 02:32:21 PM)


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#17 | Back to Top08-28-2013 11:30:09 PM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

satyreyes wrote:

Also, Yasha, implement strikethrough tags.  emot-tongue

Dude, I can't be everywhere at once emot-mad


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#18 | Back to Top08-29-2013 10:37:01 AM

Arki
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Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1120

Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

I think the Anthy - Mr. Kaoru bit may be a way of inserting Miki's line of thought into the news. It doesn't matter what the wife-to-be looks like. By imagining Anthy, Miki shows that he doesn't look at the news in regard to how his life as a son will change now that his father is remarrying. Instead, he relates the events to himself - with what he's currently experiencing in the area of romance. Anthy being imagined as the wife-to-be further illustrates how Miki sees his crush on Anthy - as an adult thing. As a stepping away from innocence or previous failed engagements (with Mr. Kaoru - his former wife, with Miki - his sister? In which case Kozue would be representing a tainted childhood to move away from).

Re: Incest, I always took the almost-kissing parts as symbolic, but there's a line that sort of... makes it a little more literal and a little more actual incest as opposed to feelings that strain Miki and Kozue's relationship and fuels their behavior. It's in ep 15. when Miki falls asleep and Kozue tries to kiss him or something. Kozue's reaction when Anthy comes in and sees it. "You saw?" she says. That's quite... interesting. Because it implies that Kozue knows there was something to see there. Something out of the norm. Something to be ashamed of. Something to be hidden. Something like inappropriate behavior between siblings.

Following the logic of 'Kozue needs to have experienced some form of sexual abuse to be able to recognize it in Miki's music instructor', a similar line of reasoning could be made for incest. Or perhaps not? Is incest something that is more generally understood as wrong and much more easily recognized before it happens and thus more easily prevented? Then again, we haven't established that Kozue would have needed to be sexually abused in order to recognize potential sexual abuse.

Aaaaaand I don't think I've answered ANY question. Whoops. Somehow I've always assumed Kozue's issues come from her brother, without considering what exactly happened. Whoops again.

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#19 | Back to Top08-30-2013 10:54:13 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

Arki wrote:

Is incest something that is more generally understood as wrong and much more easily recognized before it happens and thus more easily prevented? Then again, we haven't established that Kozue would have needed to be sexually abused in order to recognize potential sexual abuse.

You know, I'm not so sure about that. I think the challenge with incest, which is a third of all child sexual abuse cases (statistic from RAINN), is that it's much easier to hide the abuse behind things that appear to others as fairly innocent within the context of family. Daddy is expected to be in physical contact far more than say, a best friend's mom. And while this is complete conjecture, I almost wonder if the adult world's recognition of incest as somehow 'worse' makes them more blind to it. No one wants to believe that's what they're seeing, and there's almost always an excuse that makes it all seem okay.

I always took the scene where Kozue gets caught and acknowledges it as very consistent with the sexuality of an abused child. Alone, with her 'partner', nothing was wrong. However, the child knows very well (by threat or otherwise) that these behaviors that are normalized in the abusive situation are not okay for others to see. Children maintain their silence often under threat, but that threat is just as likely to be 'if you tell people they'll steal you away from daddy' as it is 'I'll kick the shit out of you.'

Part of what makes Nanami so creepy early on is that she has a similar mentality about her closeness to her brother. WHAT WE HAVE IS SECRET AND SPECIAL AND YOU'LL TRY TO RUIN IT BECAUSE YOU DON'T GET IT. It turns out this was completely (sort of) innocent, but the way she approached it stank of incest enough to have a lot of us on our toes for a long time.


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#20 | Back to Top09-05-2013 09:48:50 PM

Raze Occam
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Registered: 09-04-2013
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

Giovanna wrote:

I think the challenge with incest, which is a third of all child sexual abuse cases (statistic from RAINN), is that it's much easier to hide the abuse behind things that appear to others as fairly innocent within the context of family. Daddy is expected to be in physical contact far more than say, a best friend's mom. And while this is complete conjecture, I almost wonder if the adult world's recognition of incest as somehow 'worse' makes them more blind to it. No one wants to believe that's what they're seeing, and there's almost always an excuse that makes it all seem okay.

This might actually explain a lot about how the underlying incest/pseudo-incest/outward incest is generally not as much of an issue in the context of Ohtori, which I'd always personally explained by it just not being a part of the "real world"... but Ohtori is an environment that would foster those beliefs because

a.) The faculty would either be unwilling to admit that a student's sexually destructive behavior came from anything other than their being deviants to begin with

b.) Kozue will always look bad by comparison to Miki, relatively speaking.

I'm not sure what this implies about any of the other incest subplots though


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#21 | Back to Top09-05-2013 10:02:04 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

Raze Occam wrote:

Giovanna wrote:

I think the challenge with incest, which is a third of all child sexual abuse cases (statistic from RAINN), is that it's much easier to hide the abuse behind things that appear to others as fairly innocent within the context of family. Daddy is expected to be in physical contact far more than say, a best friend's mom. And while this is complete conjecture, I almost wonder if the adult world's recognition of incest as somehow 'worse' makes them more blind to it. No one wants to believe that's what they're seeing, and there's almost always an excuse that makes it all seem okay.

This might actually explain a lot about how the underlying incest/pseudo-incest/outward incest is generally not as much of an issue in the context of Ohtori, which I'd always personally explained by it just not being a part of the "real world"... but Ohtori is an environment that would foster those beliefs because

a.) The faculty would either be unwilling to admit that a student's sexually destructive behavior came from anything other than their being deviants to begin with

b.) Kozue will always look bad by comparison to Miki, relatively speaking.

c.) The Kaoru parents are not around anyway, so it's not clear what the faculty's duty to Kozue should be; she's already removed from their household.

d.) Akio does not hire perceptive faculty members. emot-tongue

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#22 | Back to Top09-06-2013 12:33:05 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

Raze Occam wrote:

b.) Kozue will always look bad by comparison to Miki, relatively speaking.

This, a thousand times. Kozue will never win at anything. There will always be impossible expectations placed upon her, and shame heaped up when she failed to perform. I can honestly see her developing the conviction that the only thing she's good at is sex and manipulation. These are the only platforms she could ever hope to be equal to or even suppress her brother. Daddy's little secret becomes Daddy's little disciple. Rather frightening, really. emot-frown

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#23 | Back to Top09-06-2013 10:23:43 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Posts: 1312
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Re: Wild animals; Kozue and sex

crystalwren wrote:

Daddy's little secret becomes Daddy's little disciple. Rather frightening, really. emot-frown

Well, see the why behind how Touga turned out according to Yoji E.


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