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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top08-11-2013 11:29:28 PM

mistspinner
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 08-10-2013
Posts: 92

When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

So I've noticed a couple of threads about Freud's influence in SKU and a few for MBTI, etc, but since no one seems to have made a proper Jungian thread here (or, at least, from the pages I've looked at), I think I should?

(disclaimer: all my psychology knowledge comes from the public library, so I may have fucked up brutally in some of my interpretations)

So! My thoughts first emot-smile

If you're not super-familiar with Jung (and don't worry if you aren't, only sad nerds with no lives like me read up on Jung for fun), one of the things he wrote extensively on (among others) was the idea of the archetype. For Jung, all archetypes were manifestations of the collective unconsciousness shared among all people. What are literary archetypes, however, differ from what Jung defines as archetypes - for Jung, archetypes are "pattern of thinking" that manifest in archetypal images, also called symbols. To use a religious metaphor I will probably botch, an archetype would be like Shiva, its symbol would be one of his avatars, and the collective unconsciousness would be like Brahman, which all things are manifestations are.

What I interpreted the prince in SKU to be, then, was an archetypal image of an archetype, a mode of thought which in this case seems to go along the lines of wishing to aid others (call it the "nobility archetype" if you wish). However, the problem with archetypal images is that they are fixed - they can't adapt to times, and getting "stuck" on a particular symbol can lead to detrimental effects, often helping to create complexes that obscuring one's vision of the world. For example, many of the characters' fixations on the past could be viewed as holding on to particular archetypal images: Miki, for example, wants to be close to his sister (his guiding archetype), but he's stuck on the archetypal image of both being sweetly innocent (the archetypal image he's stuck on). As a result, his relationship with Kozue suffers, even as he longs to be close to her once again. So it is with the prince: while borne of the desire to help others and while once successful in doing so (Dios did save some princesses, after all), it's an archetypal image that becomes incredibly harmful when people refuse to let go of it. Utena's rescue of Anthy, done without princes or princesses, is then new, more mature re-imagining of the nobility archetype that initially guided her to be a prince. Utena's impetus remains the same, but how she expresses it changes. Likewise with some of the other characters, who - at the end of the series - seem to be forming the relationships they missed and longed for, but in new, healthier manners. Ultimately then, I interpret SKU as a celebration of change that nonetheless acknowledges the legitimacy of longing for the past.

asfdklj;ag it's been a long time since I've been thinking about these things and I'm afraid I may not have explained myself incredibly well, so here's an essay I wrote on the topic, with a better summary of Jung's ideas (ignore the parts about Surrealism): http://www.mediafire.com/view/o8r798x5s … !_III.docx

Anyways! There's still plenty of material to go through - shadow archetypes (basically foils), anima/animus counterparts, etc - so fire away with your thoughts! emot-smile

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#2 | Back to Top08-12-2013 11:03:00 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

I admit I'm not as up on my Jung as I'd like to be -- thank you for educating me!  I'd somehow gotten the idea that there's a fairly small fixed set of Jungian archetypes: the shadow, the maiden/mother/crone, the hero, and so on.  But what you're saying, I think, is that the idea of a Jungian archetype is actually very flexible and abstract.  That gives me a new way of talking about symbols in SKU: if Miki is stuck on the archetype of eternal innocence with his sister, then playing with his stopwatch is a manifestation of that archetype, and so is his dueling for possession of Anthy.  They're part of the same complex.  I'm digging your paper, too.  It's striking how thoroughly you manage to sustain Jungian interpretations for just about all of SKU's key plot points and symbols.  I especially enjoy the part (pages 11-12) where you forcefully argue that Utena must be alive in the outside world, because all that the swords destroyed was the conception of Utena as a prince, the archetypal manifestation that had been restraining her, and not Utena herself.  I don't think I've heard that one before.  [Edit: I'm wrong, Levi had broached an idea like this before.]  I like it!  I've been saying that Utena never became a prince for years, but I think your explanation is at least as persuasive as any of the ones I've come up with. emot-smile

Also, you have a section entitled "Revolutions About The Same Axis," which makes you the coolest kid in school as far as I'm concerned.  That is hilarious and also a perfect summary of SKU's characters' struggles, even though that's not quite the point of that section.

There are a couple questions I guess I'd like to ask you.  First, you say in your post that SKU is "a celebration of change that nonetheless acknowledges the legitimacy of longing for the past."  The celebration of change I get.  In what sense do you think SKU paints longing for the past as legitimate?  There is certainly an acknowledgment in the show that we can't escape from our pasts, that our pasts will color us, even that our pasts can be a source of strength, but it seems like longing for the past is only ever a weakness.  People in SKU sabotage themselves and treat each other cruelly principally out of an impossible desire to make everything like they imagine it used to be.  For most of them, "revolution" really means the other kind of revolution, a return to where they started.

And question two -- this comes from your paper -- is, do you think art that celebrates necessary change is always avant-garde art?  Your thesis and conclusion both suggest that you believe this, but almost any story that follows the basic Hero's Journey framework is a story that celebrates necessary change.  I like Neil Gaiman's "The Graveyard Book" as much as anyone, with its protagonist who learns that to grow up he has to leave the graveyard, but it isn't avant-garde, is it?  So what makes SKU avant-garde?  This might be beyond the scope of this thread, though emot-smile

Meanwhile, inside satyr's brain: "Let's see, should I read this link?... Oh, the file name is Lesbians!.docx, guess I'm reading it then!" Rofl, let's not even get into the gender politics of that one.

Last edited by satyreyes (08-12-2013 11:14:29 AM)

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#3 | Back to Top08-12-2013 08:24:15 PM

Kita-Ysabell
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Registered: 11-18-2012
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Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

satyreyes wrote:

I admit I'm not as up on my Jung as I'd like to be -- thank you for educating me!  I'd somehow gotten the idea that there's a fairly small fixed set of Jungian archetypes: the shadow, the maiden/mother/crone, the hero, and so on.  But what you're saying, I think, is that the idea of a Jungian archetype is actually very flexible and abstract.

If I remember correctly, the original Jungian archetypes really were quite fixed, because Jung believed that they were all transmitted through a psychic connection between all people to the collective unconscious.  But that might be the distortion of Jung through the lens of pop psychology.  The idea of archetypes as flexible seems like a great way of bringing Jung back into the postmodern literary discussion!

(No, I haven't gotten through the essay.  I'd love to, but I'm still a little wary of anything with a .docx on the end.)


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#4 | Back to Top08-12-2013 08:39:31 PM

mistspinner
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 08-10-2013
Posts: 92

Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

I accidentally sent the essay to my prof with that file name intact, and I swear I wanted to die when he commented on it orz

In response to your points, I think my wording wasn't the best for what I wanted to say - what I meant in saying "the legitimacy of longing for the past," I was referring to the driving forces that cause the characters to long for it. For example, Miki (since he's an easy target, I think I'll pick on him for a bit longer) fixates on his childhood with Kozue because he wants to be close to her. The childhood, then, could be seen as the archetypal image of the archetype, which is his desire for sibling love, and longing for the past could be then seen as analogous to getting stuck on an archetypal image. However, while the archetypal image may need to be replaced, the archetype itself is still legitimate - Miki can't return to the past, but he can have a closer relationship with Kozue (see: the end of the series, where he seems to be doing quite well).

Actually, scratch what I said about my wording not being the best - in hindsight, it was kind of atrocious, but that's what I get for staying up too late and not proof-reading :/

Poor explanation skills aside, what I was essentially responding to was the view I'd seen before that Utena had to completely reject everything associated with being a prince. What I argue instead is that, yes, the prince role is problematic and Utena shouldn't try to be one, but the motivations that led her to become a prince are nonetheless still legitimate and can hide outlet in any other form. Once again, the difference between archetypal image and archetype, and the idea of evolution as opposed to pure rejection. Hopefully this explanation makes more sense - Jung might be a bit kooky (but then again, the guy used to carve totem poles into his school supplies, so you know emot-rolleyes), but he's super-fascinating nonetheless, even if he's hella difficult to understand at times.

And ah, let's see what I remember from Literary Avant-Gardes...

Basically, an idea of lot of the avant-garde artists and writers shared was that current forms of art (novels, short stories, etc) weren't up to the task of expressing the sentiments of the current generation. Tolstoy might have been good for the 19th century, but this is the 20th century, forgodssake - the youth of today need new, more energetic ways of self-expression! Hence, the doing away of any of many "obsolete" traditions - chronological order, "logical" sense, and such trifling things like grammar. Hence, stuff like the Waiting for Godot or Altazor, where the last chapter is essentially aaaa eeee dog iiiewri. Imo, the difference between "regular" art and the avant-garde is basically form - does the work try to push the boundaries of the medium? If so, it's avant-garde. Basically, my argument at the end was that by being a feminist work AND a surrealist one, Utena was in the position to challenge the misogyny that ironically exists in many avant-garde movements. In terms of form, Utena uses a lot of surrealist tropes and certainly challenges some of the expectations of the anime medium, but I don't know if I would consider it completely avant-garde, either - it's certainly experimental, yes, but how much so? Could it be considered avant-garde in the larger art world?

Honestly, though? I picked SKU to write on because I just didn't want to write my final paper on something I didn't care about emot-tongue

It's been a loooong time since I wrote that essay, so I'm sorry for any confusion unclearness in my wording or writing! I'm also not completely set on anything I wrote, so you're all free to try to persuade otherwise! emot-smile 

Also, slightly off-topic, but I was reading up on Gnosticism a while earlier, and apparently they had the idea that the world we exist in is an illusionary version of the "true reality," which struck as kind of cool and sort of relevant to SKU? Like woah, man, all the angles you can analyze this anime from. Like woah emot-aaa

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#5 | Back to Top08-12-2013 10:38:39 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

You guys are all way more educated about this than I am-- my schooling regarding Jung has essentially consisted of "hokay he was a dude who learned from Freud and he had archetypes and collective unconscious NEXT"-- so while I don't feel qualified to comment in any sense, I'm reading avidly.

mistspinner wrote:

Also, slightly off-topic, but I was reading up on Gnosticism a while earlier, and apparently they had the idea that the world we exist in is an illusionary version of the "true reality," which struck as kind of cool and sort of relevant to SKU? Like woah, man, all the angles you can analyze this anime from. Like woah emot-aaa

Another slightly related angle I've always wanted to explore is how to view SKU through Christian mythology. There's a hell of a lot to draw from there.


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#6 | Back to Top08-13-2013 11:12:54 PM

mistspinner
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 08-10-2013
Posts: 92

Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

Kita:
If I remember correctly, the original Jungian archetypes really were quite fixed, because Jung believed that they were all transmitted through a psychic connection between all people to the collective unconscious.

Ah, so I was pretty certain on the psychic passing-down part, but I'm fairly disappointed I had to use Wikipedia to double-check the part about archetypes...

From Wikipedia, it says that "strictly speaking Jungian archetypes refer to nuclear underlying forms or the archetypes-as-such from which emerge images and motifs such as the mother, the child, the trickster and the flood amongst others"

and

"Jung was fond of comparing the form of the archetype to the axial system of a crystal, which preforms the crystalline structure of the mother liquid, although it has no material existence of its own."

Strictly speaking, it's possible that Jung might have started out with the idea of fixed archetypes, but the way his ideas were now codified is a more flexible interpretation of the idea emot-smile He's a really tricky, obtuse guy in terms of ideas though, so yeah :/ And please don't feel the need to read through the essay! - it's only there just in case anyone is interested in much I can BS my way through a final paper and still get an A emot-rolleyes

Yasha:
Another slightly related angle I've always wanted to explore is how to view SKU through Christian mythology. There's a hell of a lot to draw from there.

Ooh, SKU through Christian mythology would be wonderful - someone else would have to do it, but it would be definitely interesting emot-aaa

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#7 | Back to Top08-15-2013 03:47:56 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

mistspinner wrote:

Honestly, though? I picked SKU to write on because I just didn't want to write my final paper on something I didn't care about emot-tongue

I hear that.  I once wrote a literature paper about a Socratic dialogue in the form of a Socratic dialogue.  Another time I had a short assignment about the use and misuse of metaphor, and I drew all my examples from lyrics in the Buffy musical episode.  And I wrote my final paper for econometrics on an online game of Nomic.  Kudos to you for finding the unconventional topic.  poptart

Do you mind if we drift into the avant-garde question?  It's probably off-topic, and if you'd like to take it to another thread we can do that instead, but I'd be interested to hear what people might know about to what extent SKU pushed the boundaries of anime.

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#8 | Back to Top08-16-2013 03:27:56 AM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

Needs more Jungian analysis. The beast is not yet sated!

Also, avant-garde is always good stuff emot-keke


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#9 | Back to Top08-16-2013 10:21:37 AM

mistspinner
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 08-10-2013
Posts: 92

Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

Yasha:
Needs more Jungian analysis. The beast is not yet sated!

IT NEVER IS

NEVER emot-gonk

How about the idea of shadow archetypes? In Jung's theory of the shadow, it's essentially the opposite of your current personality - a foil or a "dark side" that is generally feared/repressed, so to speak. There are definitely echoes of this idea that come to play in the Black Rose Arc, as all the Duelists could be seen as breaking down and letting their respective Shadows take control. However, while Shadows in Jungian psychology have the potential to be destructive, they are also sources of potential creative and useful power; ultimately, he advocates that we learn to integrate our Shadows into our psyche as a whole instead of rejecting it. Hence, for example, the Persona games (which I have not actually played but only heard about from friends emot-rolleyes), where the characters have to accept their "other" to win against them (or something? All I know about Persona is via Youtube and TV Tropes). But yeah, accepting even your unwanted parts is necessary for integration as a whole, and while many of the Black Rose duelists appear happier at the end of the series, I'm not quuuuite sure how much of this integration occurred since they're all fairly minor characters - maybe more so for the major characters?

Personally, I think the idea of Shadows is very pertinent to SKU, as there are a lot of characters who act as foils to each other in SKU. Also, there's the idea of animus and anima - the "inner male" and "inner female" for women and men, respectively. They refer to how men and women view each other, and go through several stages; while less specific about the animus development, Jung had several "stages" of development for both. For the anima, although it takes many forms, men viewed women through several stages:

1. Eve - after Eve, "the emergence of a male's object of desire"
2. Helen - after Helen of Troy, "capable of worldly success," if not entirely faithful or virtuous
3. Mary - after the Virgin Mary, women here are seen as possessing virtue
4. Sophia - after the Greek word for wisdom, it's the highest level of development and involves seeing women as individuals with both positive and negative qualities

(thank you once more Wikipedia for summing this up better than I could)

But yeah, I can also see echoes of the anima in how SKU's men treat the women of the show, especially where the Helen-Mary dynamic could be translated into a Madonna-Whore complex (not surprising, since Freud helped pioneer that particular concept and he had a pretty nice friendship with Jung until the two broke up like angry lovers). Sophia seems to be one of the aims of the show, as well, as it could be seen as a transcendence of the princess-witch dichotomy. The idea of acceptance is also crucial to the anima/animus concept as well, as it's essentially a gender-specific shadow (hence, the celebration of androgyny in Jung, as it denotes acceptance of both your halves) so SKU characters could also be examined in how much they have managed to accept their "other halves" at the end of the show.

While originally hazier on the animus (which he labeled as appearing in many, many images), Jung also had four basic stages of development for how an "inner male" could develop:

1. "Muscle man" - physical strength (athletes, Tarzan, etc)
2. "Man of action" - heroes, hunters, poets, and other dashing men who "possess initiative and the capacity for planned action"
3. "Word" - the power of the word to affect change (orators, politicians, etc)
4. "Meaning" - like Sophia, the highest level of development. Often personified by Hermes

In examining the women of SKU, you could make an argument that Utena goes through several of these stages herself to eventually reach "meaning" for herself - eg, from athlete (1) to hero (2) to someone who attempts to help others with their problems during the duels and talk Anthy out of suicide (3) to someone who finds her purpose in helping Anthy (4). I'm curious about whether or not the other women have similar experiences in their images of men, though, especially masculinity is often linked to "power" and the animus expression can often verge (at least for me) into how I can effect change in the world.

Aaaand I'm starting to self-psychoanalyze myself now, so I think I'll step out now to let others chime in? Meeting up with a friend in a few minutes to hopefully show her Utena too, yeeeeah emot-biggrin

satyreyes:
Do you mind if we drift into the avant-garde question?

As for the avant-garde question/how much SKU relates to anime in general, I would totally be interested into discussing that - I'll be a bit busy today, so maybe someone else could create the thread, though? emot-keke; Thank you majorly, and congrats on drawing Buffy into your paper - that's a fantastic topic to cover, gold stars and cookies for you as well poptart

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#10 | Back to Top08-16-2013 02:57:00 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

I remember learning about the anima and animus in a class on mythology.  I don't think I really understood it then and I still don't understand it now. emot-confused

So there's this:

There's the idea of animus and anima - the "inner male" and "inner female" for women and men, respectively.

But then there's this:

They refer to how men and women view each other.

I've run into this problem before: these terms seem to have one meaning that applies to the self, and a different meaning that applies to the other.  So which is it?  It seems odd to characterize the Eve stage of anima development as the male object of desire if the anima is a part of the self, yet Jung is insistent that these are a part of one's own unconscious.

As far as applying this to Utena, there is definitely something there, but I don't understand the animus or anima well enough to apply them.  I know that Utena is torn between wanting to find a prince and wanting to be a prince, and that exploring and resolving or deconstructing this tension is the main object of her character development from the first scene of SKU to the last.  How do you put that in Jungian terms?  Her animus is stuck in stage 2, a naive view of man as the dashing Prince, and this has taken on an overgrown role in her identity?  Or is that too simplistic and/or completely off base?

I understand the shadow better.  I think Utena actually confronts her shadow in the last few episodes of the show, roughly between the moment she sees Anthy and Akio together and the moment she rescues Anthy from suicide.  Her behavior in the interim, catty and passive-aggressive and completely unlike Utena as we know her, seems to be her grappling with a part of herself she has repressed and doesn't know how to cope with.  She comes out much stronger for it.

Last edited by satyreyes (08-16-2013 02:59:26 PM)

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#11 | Back to Top08-16-2013 08:14:08 PM

Kita-Ysabell
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Registered: 11-18-2012
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Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

satyreyes wrote:

I remember learning about the anima and animus in a class on mythology.  I don't think I really understood it then and I still don't understand it now. emot-confused

So there's this:

There's the idea of animus and anima - the "inner male" and "inner female" for women and men, respectively.

But then there's this:

They refer to how men and women view each other.

I've run into this problem before: these terms seem to have one meaning that applies to the self, and a different meaning that applies to the other.  So which is it?  It seems odd to characterize the Eve stage of anima development as the male object of desire if the anima is a part of the self, yet Jung is insistent that these are a part of one's own unconscious.

If one interprets the anima and animus as essentially being a form of archetype, they could apply both to self and to other.  Or, to put it in more Object Relations-esque language, the anima/animus is the part of the self recognized as the other.  Which, yes, given the whole "desire" bit, is quite weird, but... I think psychology usually gets pretty weird when you get to the mechanisms of desire in any school of thought.


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#12 | Back to Top08-17-2013 05:22:27 PM

Dafne
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Registered: 09-24-2012
Posts: 31

Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

So there's this:

There's the idea of animus and anima - the "inner male" and "inner female" for women and men, respectively.

But then there's this:

They refer to how men and women view each other.

I've run into this problem before: these terms seem to have one meaning that applies to the self, and a different meaning that applies to the other.  So which is it?  It seems odd to characterize the Eve stage of anima development as the male object of desire if the anima is a part of the self, yet Jung is insistent that these are a part of one's own unconscious.

If I remember well my classes (it was 2 years ago ok?) , they can represent both, it's because people have their respective "inners" that they have a view of how men and women  should be (obviously in an unconscious manner) and thus they also define how they relate to the opposite sex, either love, hate, lust etc. etc.  As for the self,  let's remember than even though Jung's archetypes are so extended nowadays that it would be hard to find someone who doesn't think that women can have "manly characteristics" (animus) and viceversa (female "anima" characteristics in men), even just a little bit, are rare, back in his day the idea had no precendent (even Freud didn't agree with them fully) and as it was nearly groundbreaking and yet Jung as a product of his time didn't believe that women and men could have a natural disposition for what traditionally is expected for the other sex, he tough that ANY "manly" or "femenine" behaviour on women and men respectively came strictly from the their "inners".
In fact Jung adviced that while the way of negating the influence our anima-animus has on how we relate to people is awareness of them and then dismissal, for him, the ideal was to find a middle ground were a woman could be well... a woman who with the help of her animus was able to be assertive, tell her mind, be creative and at the same time being comfortable with being a woman, instead of lethin your "inner" consume your ...um let's call it "original self" (because Jung still saw the born sex as the original) and negate its influence altogether, hence become a women who negate any "femenine" characteristic of her wheter is expected or not from her, my teacher described this as "the woman or men feeling trapped in a men's or woman's body".

Also the Eve stage is not just the "male object of desire" but also the biological and impulsive woman, infact this stage it's also called "Tierra" (earth) precisely on the basis of Eve being nothing but "something fertile meant ot be fecunded and be a mother"


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#13 | Back to Top08-17-2013 06:35:58 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

Dafne wrote:

If I remember well my classes (it was 2 years ago ok?) , they can represent both, it's because people have their respective "inners" that they have a view of how men and women  should be (obviously in an unconscious manner) and thus they also define how they relate to the opposite sex, either love, hate, lust etc. etc.

This is very well explained.  I understand better now.  Thank you!

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#14 | Back to Top08-18-2013 08:16:43 PM

mistspinner
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 08-10-2013
Posts: 92

Re: When I'm no longer Jung and beautiful: analytical psychology and Utena

Ah, thanks to everyone who's been putting this stuff into better terms than I have! I've mostly picked up what I know from books, so it's always good to get my facts straightened out a little emot-keke;

Dafne:
the ideal was to find a middle ground were a woman could be well... a woman who with the help of her animus was able to be assertive

Hence some of the focus on androgyny, which is essentially a balance between the two elements. There's also something I remember reading about Jung's conception of masculinity/femininity, in which - in a rather un-PC manner reminiscent of the yin-yang split in Taoism (which, again, I haven't been formally trained on, only picked up pieces of from history classes and being Chinese) - masculinity is aligned to acting to affect change and femininity is aligned to more of self-reflection and whatnot. While different halves, a good balance of the two is needed: neither solely acting without reflecting nor solely reflecting without acting is exactly an ideal situation, after all. I don't exactly have my notes on this book at hand, though, so feel free to correct me?

Satyreyes:
I know that Utena is torn between wanting to find a prince and wanting to be a prince, and that exploring and resolving or deconstructing this tension is the main object of her character development from the first scene of SKU to the last.  How do you put that in Jungian terms?  Her animus is stuck in stage 2, a naive view of man as the dashing Prince, and this has taken on an overgrown role in her identity?  Or is that too simplistic and/or completely off base?

Ah, I think what I was trying to get at was talking about Utena chooses to affect change throughout the series? Somehow, my explanation skills don't seem to be working too well today, but I kind of thought that Utena may have used models of all four representations throughout the series: physical skills = strength in the 1st stage, her princely actions = the initiative and capacity for planned action found in stage two, trying to talk Anthy out of suicide = the use of word in the third stage, and her rescue of Anthy and destruction of the castle = the discovery of spiritual meaning found in the final stage. Of course, they are only the main animus images, and plenty more exist (especially since Jung very interestingly said the female animus was more complex and varied than the male one), but basically the question I wanted to raise was about how the female characters view men in SKU. There's been a lot written about how the men in SKU view women, so something in the other direction could be potentially interesting territory to cover as well emot-biggrin

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