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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top07-21-2013 04:03:05 PM

whyknot
New Student
Registered: 07-21-2013
Posts: 8

Where do the duels REALLY take place??

In the last battle, Akio revealed the castle to be a mirage caused by his planetarium projector - and the dueling arena to be his room. Which is in the giant phallic tower at one end of the campus. But with every duel, the duelists head to the forest at the other end of campus - how does this make sense spatially at all?

On another note, when people not dueling are watching the duel near where the bells ring, where exactly are they? There's no where on campus that could be as high as the tower or the forest. Assuming that the duels DO take place in Akio's room in the tower, and they are shown watching from a distance, then they can't be in the tower. But they can't be in the forest either because only the dueling people are allowed to pass the gate into the forest?

Is there something I'm missing? I'm SO confused

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#2 | Back to Top07-21-2013 04:22:42 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

It's not really supposed to make sense. To my mind, the disparity is itself a symbol of how powerful Akio's ability to manipulate and deceive is, that he can create an illusion so far from reality as that.

Admittedly I always found it pretty jarring, though perhaps mainly because the dueling arena was such a cool place, I really wanted it to exist - but when you think about it, it CAN'T really have been there hanging over the school, after all.

Last edited by Aelanie (07-21-2013 04:23:49 PM)

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#3 | Back to Top07-21-2013 04:29:05 PM

HonorableShadow
Cow Bellhop
From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 471
Website

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

On another note, when people not dueling are watching the duel near where the bells ring, where exactly are they? There's no where on campus that could be as high as the tower or the forest. Assuming that the duels DO take place in Akio's room in the tower, and they are shown watching from a distance, then they can't be in the tower. But they can't be in the forest either because only the dueling people are allowed to pass the gate into the forest?

I think they're watching from these two tower things in the background:

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Student_Council_Arc/01/Series_ep01_151.jpg?m=1380825442

At least that's what I assumed. The ridges here seem to confirm it:
http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Student_Council_Arc/01/Series_ep01_197.jpg?m=1380825454

But in terms of where they physically occur (I'm sure the towers are illusions too,) I'm not sure.

Last edited by HonorableShadow (07-21-2013 04:35:31 PM)


Rose tint my world...
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain.

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#4 | Back to Top07-21-2013 04:32:23 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

Either Akio was bullshitting Utena (possible, considering that for the rest of the two-part finale they are always in the dueling arena and no one ever brings up the projector again), or the all the duels except Revolution took place in a physical arena.

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#5 | Back to Top07-21-2013 10:54:15 PM

whyknot
New Student
Registered: 07-21-2013
Posts: 8

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

I found something interesting in ep 38, during the revolution duel:

After Akio shows the castle to be an illusion and the dueling arena warps into his room, he looks out from where they are talking

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv119/just4ec/rev4.png


and this follows with a panning shot of what he's looking at

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv119/just4ec/rev1.png

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv119/just4ec/rev2.png

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv119/just4ec/rev3.png


he's in the tower, looking at the tower? there's something fishy going on here.

I think that the tower he's looking at is the physical tower. They are still in the forest. Surreal and magical sights all appear in the forest, like the cars, Dios, the desks and shadows, etc. Akio either controls them or knows them well enough to manipulate them. Furthermore, they appear to symbolically emphasize something.

I believe in this situation the projector is a symbol. So the projector is shown in the battle for that reason. Is it the same projector as the one in the tower? If this is true, and we take Akio's word for it, that there are no princes and castles, then how can there be witches and flying swords? The projector in this battle exists as much as the Akio cars in the other battles. Symbolically, they're in HIS room, and HE controls the projector. He controls the projection of the prince and the castle, symbolizing how he controls Utena's ideals. He is the fabricator of Utena's illusory ideals. And this makes sense - he saves Utena, and this memory gives her the prince ideal and rose ring that lead to her becoming a duelist. He deliberately creates that memory for her, and so creating a duelist. He IS the projector.

Last edited by whyknot (07-21-2013 10:57:47 PM)

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#6 | Back to Top07-22-2013 11:45:58 AM

Rosesareawesome101
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-31-2012
Posts: 194

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

The location of where the duels take is kinda ambiguous while Akio revealed in episode 38 the everything that you see in the duels including the Caste of Eternity is a Illusion and it was also revealed/Implied the duels technically take place on the Chairman's tower but like the rest of the episodes in this story arc; it up to viewers to interpret whats happens in these episodes because they are ambiguous to the point of Convolution.

About the tower where the spectators watch duels:
My theory is that everything about the duel is watched from the chairmen's tower and as whyknot kinda said: the tower we see in episode 38 is the Dueling Forest  itself and akio was looking at chairman's tower from the dueling forest but I digress we don't really know where the Spectators watched the duels from and in fact we know if everything that happens in the Finale two episodes is real or an illusion because of how absurdly ambiguous they are, it sorta similar to a Questioning the differences between Reality and Fantasy; whats actually a part of our physical reality and whats not a part of reality.


Kunihiko Ikuhara has created a show that so ambiguous to the point that we have to question whats actually real in the context of the show and whats not real in the context of the show; it blow my mind thinking about it. http://ohtori.nu/forumstuff/emotes/emot-psyboom.gif

Last edited by Rosesareawesome101 (07-22-2013 01:59:57 PM)

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#7 | Back to Top07-22-2013 03:30:06 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

Slightly relevant to the conversation, but I recall seeing a screencap of the stock "showing off the campus" footage in the Saturn game, when Dallbun was doing the Let's Plays of it. Notably, the screencap shows the forest...with the stairway AND the Dueling Arena sticking out of it like nothing's wrong and nobody's going to notice it and think "hey, that shouldn't be possible if we're grounded in reality. What gives?"

Relevant because I'm of the camp that believes "Ohtori Academy is Akio's playground, and if he says it happens, it damn well happens." Or, it's another of the illusions nobody sees because they're being fooled by the other illusions present. I think the only two who'd be able to see through the illusions for the majority of the series are Akio and Anthy. (Mikage and, possibly, Chigusa don't get a pass because they're even more victim to the twins Himemiya and their deceptions than anybody else. That's personal opinion, though, with fervent hope that it's canon.)

Fake Edit: I'll go see if I can't pull up the screencap I'm talking about. It's plain as day that something's gone wrong, but nobody except the viewer notices it.


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#8 | Back to Top07-22-2013 03:52:02 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

BioKraze wrote:

Fake Edit: I'll go see if I can't pull up the screencap I'm talking about. It's plain as day that something's gone wrong, but nobody except the viewer notices it.

I think most of the screenshots from that LP are lost, unfortunately.

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#9 | Back to Top07-22-2013 04:20:14 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

Dammit. I've been sifting through the first playthrough for the last hour or so. Thanks for the update, Atropos, depressing though it may be.


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#10 | Back to Top07-22-2013 06:06:55 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

I think it's worth noting that Akio can project illusions to anywhere on campus; Nemuro's hall for example, which was first shown to be a fully functional building, and later on became a collapsed ruin. Showing a building from the outside would be a chinch. My take is that it could be self-referential: "Look at my great big genital metaphor. Look at it. You're standing in it right now. Hur, hur, hur," or it's an example of Ikuhara-sama messing with the viewerís heads. A third option is directorial hand waving, where the tower and the duelling arena are meant to be ambiguous, ostentatiously to add to the mystery but really to gloss over some weak points in the script that he didnít care to address. My personal opinion is that itís a combination of all three. cool

Last edited by crystalwren (07-22-2013 06:09:11 PM)

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#11 | Back to Top07-22-2013 11:03:30 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

I myself always thought the non-match-up quality of physics and time in the series is meant to show A & A warping the  characters' perceptions of reality - likely accomplished through more supernatural means than projector science at work.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#12 | Back to Top07-23-2013 10:49:07 PM

ArthurianRoseKnight
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 11-17-2012
Posts: 76
Website

Re: Where do the duels REALLY take place??

Ikuni was trying to go all Lovecraft with this bishoujo animu.

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