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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top07-01-2013 09:29:13 PM

Rosesareawesome101
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-31-2012
Posts: 194

Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Oh Juri you are one of the popular characters in the show fandom; you are a Badass, your dual themes are great and you have best character arc in the series etc-jurishlick
Oh wait she is a terrible character; she doesn't progress that much as a character, the characters that appear in her episode(Ruka & Shiori) are unrelatable & her episode have some of most forced Melodrama in the show; I don't care if you cried throughout episode 29 it still shallow Character drama.
All her episode are about is that Juri angst over her love Shiori despite her taking away her boyfriend away and in the case of episode 28 & episode 29; it Ruka manipulating Juri to make her stop clinging to shiori but she still doesn't develop as a character until the final episode.

To summarize her character development:
Episode 7: It establish that she Bisexual and is having trouble admitting her love toward shiori also she doesn't believe in Miracles which is kind of bullshit when you consider the point of Revolution by that point is to grant miracles. Note: aside from the Duel, Utena only had two scenes interacting with her this episode
Episode 17: Shiori appears for the first time onscreen, she and Juri interacted for the first time, Juri being the poor communicator does not tell her truth about the   locket and that she has a crush on her. no character development at all for Juri. Note: Utena only interacted with Juri and Shiori once this episode
Episode 28: Ruka focused episode, Juri asked Ruka and Shiori to stay away from each other but Ruka and Shiori Ignore Juri's warning resulting in one of the most Dickist move in show up until that point; The problem is again Juri's poor communication skills, she gave no reason for Shiori to give a shit about her Warning and let Ruka Manipulate her. Note: This is of the few episode where Utena barely interacted with the Duelist of the week.
Episode 29: The conclusion to her character arc: Juri visits Shiori but Shiori does not want to associate with her anymore; Ruka Seduces and Manipulate Juri; Juri loses the will to fight after Utena knock her locket and we get the sappiest ending in the shows history history, everything from the Music to the revelation that Ruka is terminally ill is written to engage viewers emotionally into the story without doing any character development. Note#3: Again Utena only interacted with juri Once this episode.

Despite going through a four episode character arc Juri barely develops as character; in the end of all of this Melodrama, Juri barely develop as a characters; All of the terrible things that happen in her episode harken back to her terrible Communication skill.
Juri, Shiori and Ruka are great examples of Hackneyed writing, all three of them have 2 dimensional personalities and barely develop as character, the episode that focus on them relied on Hack writing techniques that are design to force drama into the episode rather than developing them as actual character and the protagonist barely interacts with them; the only instance in these episodes where utena tries to help these character is when she asked Juri to Help Shiori.

Juri is a Overrated character overall, her Episodes(Especially episode 29) don't really deserve their praise and she barely develops as a character.....

Last edited by Rosesareawesome101 (07-01-2013 09:54:08 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top07-01-2013 09:44:52 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

also she doesn't believe in Miracles to be exact which is kind of bullshit when you consider the point of Revolution by that point is to grant miracles.

I wonder.

And to be fair, Juri has a reason for her poor communication skills. Confessing your love for someone is hard enough in the first place, but when it's a homosexual crush, there's also all that stigma involved (even if a lot of girls seems to be gay for Juri). Also, I think Juri likes being in control (even though a part of her seems rather masochistic, so I think in a way she gets off on the drama), and admitting her love for Shiori would tip the power in favor of Shiori. And we all saw what happened when Shiori did find out about her "power over Juri."

I'll admit I'm not sure how I feel about the whole Ruka-thing, however. It felt a little tacked-on.

Last edited by Lurv (07-01-2013 09:50:37 PM)

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#3 | Back to Top07-02-2013 07:59:59 AM

Honey Bear
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
From: England
Registered: 08-01-2011
Posts: 173
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

... I actually thought Juri's episodes were some of the best storytelling in the show. emot-confused Maybe we were watching a different show.

I agree the Ruka episodes felt like they were added a bit last minute. I don't know how you can say Juri doesn't develop though. Compare the closed off Juri we see during her introduction to Juri playing badminton with Miki and Utena at the end. The Juri at the start of the show would have never ever made a joke about her locket.

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#4 | Back to Top07-06-2013 02:19:49 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

(Yeah, it's a Juri thread, but) Are you calling Shiori hackneyed? Waaaah!?! Shiori is filled with depth, novelty, and frills.

Juri and Shiori don't have great progress in the series, no, but most don't. There is progress, hesitance, and regression. They're trapped in their dynamics. Even, when we look at the movie, Juri has taken the opposite approach from the TV series, and yet, remains trapped, all the same, by her inability to see past the range of Shiori. She's missing the forest for the trees and the castle beyond them. But it's by their arrested dynamic that we can gauge Utena's progress. Pretty much every recurring character is suspended in SKU, tragically and disappointingly, but they always will be, because it is tragedy. We wouldn't cheer so much for Utena or Anthy getting out if it was easy and everyone did it.

Within the boundaries they self-support, however, and in the possibility beyond those that we, the audience, can see, there's a lot going on with Shiori and Juri, together and individually, and in relation to other characters.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#5 | Back to Top07-06-2013 09:56:27 PM

ArthurianRoseKnight
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 11-17-2012
Posts: 76
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

You talking shit about my platonic waifu, OP?

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#6 | Back to Top08-14-2013 03:35:39 AM

Rosesareawesome101
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-31-2012
Posts: 194

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

(Yeah, it's a Juri thread, but) Are you calling Shiori hackneyed? Waaaah!?! Shiori is filled with depth, novelty, and frills.

No theres no depth to her character at all, she is the least develop of the sidecast and ultimately the character arc around her and juri is probably the weakest in show; everything about their character arc is a pretentious and Hackeyed attempt at deconstructing a love triangle; on par with Evangelion's hamfisted and pretentious attempt at character study and Visual symbolism.

Mainly because Juri herself is a 2 dimensional character and shiori barely has a personality overall; Juri's is all serious and angsty, that all we see out of her character. Shiori has a low self-esteem, she is a glorified plot point overall with a non-existent personality; So attempting to give both of them along with ruka a sense of depth is Forced and Hackeyed writing. The writers are attempting to forcing these shallow(and ultimately unrelatable) character onto us with their Melodramatic(and Tack on) storytelling.

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#7 | Back to Top08-14-2013 01:20:59 PM

BlackBeforeRed
Acknowledged Smart Person
From: The Nightosphere
Registered: 07-09-2010
Posts: 178

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Rosesareawesome101 wrote:

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

(Yeah, it's a Juri thread, but) Are you calling Shiori hackneyed? Waaaah!?! Shiori is filled with depth, novelty, and frills.

No theres no depth to her character at all, she is the least develop of the sidecast and ultimately the character arc around her and juri is probably the weakest in show; everything about their character arc is a pretentious and Hackeyed attempt at deconstructing a love triangle; on par with Evangelion's hamfisted and pretentious attempt at character study and Visual symbolism.

Mainly because Juri herself is a 2 dimensional character and shiori barely has a personality overall; Juri's is all serious and angsty, that all we see out of her character. Shiori has a low self-esteem, she is a glorified plot point overall with a non-existent personality; So attempting to give both of them along with ruka a sense of depth is Forced and Hackeyed writing. The writers are attempting to forcing these shallow(and ultimately unrelatable) character onto us with their Melodramatic(and Tack on) storytelling.

emot-aaa

Um, okay then. I've heard quite a few complaints about Shiori and why people don't like her, but one thing I haven't heard before is that she has no personality emot-confused

In all seriousness though, Both Shiori and Juri are very complex characters. They have subtlety, but there's still a lot there. I don't call either of their characters or their plot lazy or hackeyed, a lot of depth was given to these characters. I always considered Shiori one of the most layered characters in the show. She does genuinely care about Juri, but her inferiority complex makes her so paranoid that Juri is in some way pitying or looking down on her that she'll do anything to try and have the upper hand and prove herself equal. It's an internal struggle you see within her, she wants to hate Juri but she can't bring herself to. And she only becomes more and desperate as time goes on, because no matter what she does she never feels better about herself. In fact, the more she tears down Juri the worse she feels. It's not a simple low self esteem problem, it runs much deeper than that.

She's as much a player in the Juri/Shiori dynamic as Juri is. Everytime Shiori does something to try and bring herself up to Juri's level, it only draws Juri further in. It's a very tragic relationship, even though they care deeply for one another, they're still reduced to power struggles and mind games.

As for Juri, she does more than just angst. Her default mode is cold and distant, the mask she puts on in public, and when she's alone we get her more vulnerable side that she works so hard to hide. Just because most of the emotion she shows tends to be towards the negative side doesn't mean she only angsts. The progress she makes by the end of her arc isn't huge, but it's good progress. It's not that she lost the will to fight. It's that she's letting go of her unhealthy attachment to Shiori and trying to move on. It's huge for her, It's not tacked on, it was her struggle from the very beginning, it was what her whole arc built up to. There was character development.

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#8 | Back to Top08-14-2013 05:42:06 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Oh look, it's another Rosesareaweseome101 complaint thread. Don't bother to make any arguments people, they're sure to be brushed off and ignored just like what happened last time.

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#9 | Back to Top08-14-2013 11:35:17 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

(Yeah, it's a Juri thread, but)

Famous last words. emot-biggrin

A discussion about the comparative cohesiveness of various characters' stories could be interesting. Hearing opinions about who sucks, why they suck, and how often they suck, is what the Complaints thread in IFD is for. An interesting thread can still come from humble beginnings if it's not beaten down, though, and that's what I hope happens here.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#10 | Back to Top08-15-2013 05:52:35 AM

Rosesareawesome101
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-31-2012
Posts: 194

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Aelanie wrote:

Oh look, it's another Rosesareaweseome101 complaint thread. Don't bother to make any arguments people, they're sure to be brushed off and ignored just like what happened last time.

Might as well lock this thread.

Entitlement issues has always been a problem with me when comes to posting in these forums, The last forum I invested Zelda Universe(The fan site) that was a horrible experience for me after my 1st mouth of posting, if you want a example of why, read my posts as Zeldafan888 up until the release of Skyward Sword, My attitude was incredibly Fanboyish and I was the kind of person who would not accept the opinions of others; the result was 2 bans one for flaming and the other for posting erotic material(fanfiction and other reasons. It got to the point where I stop posting on there because of it.

I think it because of the fact that I was Diagnose with Autism or because of my age(I was 14 year back then) probably the Former.
I've learned a lot since then when it comes to other people's opinions.

That being said I should probably move on from doing these kind of threads because it ruining my reputation in these Forums

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#11 | Back to Top08-15-2013 10:25:02 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Rosesareawesome101 wrote:

That being said I should probably move on from doing these kind of threads because it ruining my reputation in these Forums

In your defense, you've also made a number of threads about things you enjoy about SKU, and those threads have often led to cool discussions.  When it comes to your rant threads, though, I think you'd be smart to listen to Gio.  emot-smile

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#12 | Back to Top08-16-2013 03:24:43 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Either way, we're not going to come down on you for having unpopular opinions. If you want to learn how to express them better, contact myself, Sat, or DD, and we'll do our best to help you.

Back on topic!

So I don't really post in Juri/Shiori/Ruka threads often, and the reason is that I find myself dangerously close to thinking they're irrelevant. I know this isn't the case, and that for a lot of people that whole group is very relevant and very close to their hearts. I always find myself wanting to argue the whys and wherefores of my opinion against theirs, and since we all know I have a tendency to express myself strongly, I've always figured that I'd better just leave it alone before I stomped on someone's feelings.

However...

I've never understood the reasons people like Juri, and only once, for a few minutes, have I ever understood the reasons someone liked Shiori-- RoseCon NOLA, when I asked dollface to explain Shiori to me and for a few bright moments it stuck! And then I lost it. emot-frown

So what I'm saying here is... why? What's so likable about them? What do you identify with? I never find any common ground with them-- what people call complexity is, to me, just fence-sitting and angst. I'd really like to get this, because I really hate being biased, even toward my own point of view. Juri and Shiori have been, for many years, just the parts of the show that I skip getting to the "good stuff" and that's just not fair.

Convince me. I want you to do it. Maybe you can change my mind, cause goodness knows, I want it to be changed.





(Caveat: I understand Ruka, because he tried to force a decision... and I also know he's usually not looked on favorably.)


So... yeah. Why should I not skip these episodes? What's so great about Juri and Shiori?


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#13 | Back to Top08-16-2013 10:20:35 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

@Yasha: I've come to like Juri more than I used to.  And you know why?  Because she reminds me of you.

emot-tongue

Okay, I'm oversimplifying a little.  But let me quote myself from a couple places in the Ohtori relationship advice thread.

I wrote:

Look at her professional strengths, and look at the way she treats her friends and acquaintances.  Juri is good at getting inside other people's heads.  We see her use that power to manipulate teachers, one-up Touga, build a trusting friendship with Miki (one of the few in the show), and draw out Utena's life story.  She is a person who, in a social situation, can size up another person, decide what she wants out of em, and present herself in a way that is honest and yet accomplishes what she set out to do.

She has enough empathy, as shutin pointed out earlier, to be able to connect her own relationship troubles to those of Miki and Nanami.  She has enough empathy on the eve of the final duel to acknowledge out loud that Utena loves Anthy, even though Utena herself isn't quite sure about that at the moment, and to sympathetically compare Utena's feelings about Anthy to her own for Shiori.

The word "empathy" in that last bit could just as easily be swapped out for "perspective."  Juri is as embroiled in her complex as anyone, but she's more able than the others to step back and see how ridiculous it is.  She's learned from her own problems, even if she seems frustratingly powerless to fix them, and what she's learned has made her a more sympathetic person.  Her character arc is the story of finding a place of relative peace within conflict, and of learning to use her life experiences to help others instead of hurt them.  (Compare her treatment of Utena in episode 7 to episode 37.)  I admire those qualities, so I like Juri, and I guess I can forgive her for that one red button called Shiori that makes her act like... well, like a teenager.

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#14 | Back to Top08-16-2013 10:45:47 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

With respect, "convince me of things I don't yet believe" is essentially is asking someone else to do the heavy lifting for you, and is almost never successful even when they've put forth their best and most strenuous efforts. With regard to Juri, I'll say - or rather repeat - only this:

... the duels, even from the beginning of the show, aren't really about a contest of sword skill, it's a clash of wills. The strongest willed ALWAYS wins, and that's why Utena can win with ease over kendo stars, fencing club members, etc. etc. None of that matters. It's about the steel in your spirit, not your blade.

And this is also why Juri is the only one that Utena never technically defeats. Juri is the only Duelist besides Utena whose will is truly strong, and who resists the temptations that Akio plies the other Duelists with in his End of the World role. Even as Ruka is trying to tempt Juri with the power to obtain anything, she renounces it, saying she needs nothing but her own strength. In Utena, the people who lust after power the least are the ones who have it within them most. That's why Juri was undeniably Utena's most dangerous opponent.

Or rather, that Juri was perhaps the second most promising candidate to be Akio's sacrifice. Do I think Juri could've spiritually overpowered Akio as Utena did? Without a doubt. But, could she have cried tears of princely compassion and opened the gate? I'm uncertain. Juri is at bottom a good and righteous person, but she is proud, and can be cruel, as she is to Anthy herself early in the show. (I believe that of all the Duelists, Juri had by far the best insight into who and what Anthy truly was. She was not fooled by the Rose Bride.) Yet, it's possible she could've been moved by the sight of Anthy at that time. It would've been very interesting to see her in that situation.

Juri can indeed be haughty and cold at times, but she is also strong, righteous, and honorable. Unlike almost all the other duelists, she has no flaw or vice to be exploited. Her only weakness is an inability to let go of a tragic, hopeless love, and such an honest and sincere fault is not something Akio could successfully twist to his uses. That - and the appearance of a more easily manipulated candidate in Utena - are the reasons she was spared being put in that position.

I love her strength, her integrity, and her ability to endure her pain stoically, day by day.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-16-2013 01:14:07 PM)

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#15 | Back to Top08-16-2013 12:34:27 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

It actually took Juri some time to grow on me as well. Like I thought, yeah, she's strong and talented and all, but why is she so obsessed with Shiori? emot-rolleyes Then I realized that she is a teenager, and even adults can act irrationally when it comes to love (or desire). And Juri even realizes how foolish it is of her to act that way, even though it takes her a while to break free. I still don't love her, but I can sympathize with her and see why people find her so admirable.

...I could be more in-depth, but Satyr and Aelanie already said a few things that's better than I would have. emot-tongue

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#16 | Back to Top08-16-2013 08:31:57 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

satyreyes wrote:

@Yasha: I've come to like Juri more than I used to.  And you know why?  Because she reminds me of you.

emot-tongue

Ack! Really? emot-gonk

Okay, I read the rest of your post and the way you see it makes sense to me, but for some reason I'm feeling like a lot of that isn't shown in her episodes. Maybe I need to rewatch them and see exactly what's in them. The comparison between Utena's love for Anthy and her love for Shiori was something I never gave her credit for doing; in my eyes, it was always a mark against her for being mistaken about it. I guess I don't give her, myself, or anyone, credit for trying to put themselves in another's shoes when they turn out to be wrong, and I should rethink that. That's a pretty awful way to see things-- that you're only worth something if you succeed. emot-frown

Wait, that's a pretty Touga/Saionji way to see things. Even more emot-frown

Also, I never thought of her as stepping out of her experiences and having perspective on them. I'd like you to expand on that, if possible, because I've always considered that one point in Touga's arc where he sees that he's being manipulated and goes along with it because he has no choice to be the only point where that happens, but if you say it's true, it probably is and I just missed something (a huge something emot-gonk).

One thing, though... isn't treating Shiori like the red button and nothing else a little bit... I dunno. That's a pretty large chunk of Juri's motivation and a whole person in her arc; I can't really look at Shiori as being only the trigger for Juri to act like a teenager.

Aelanie wrote:

With respect, "convince me of things I don't yet believe" is essentially is asking someone else to do the heavy lifting for you, and is almost never successful even when they've put forth their best and most strenuous efforts.

Understood, and no offense taken, but I think most times the people who say "convince me" are actually actively trying not to be convinced even though they say they're open to it, and that's what causes it to be strenuous. I've done this myself (I know, I'm a bad person), but that's not what's happening here. I want to understand, and I need help to do it, because even if I remind sat of Juri, I don't natively speak her language the way I do with the Touga/Saionji/Nanami triangle and the Akio/Utena/Anthy triangle. I intend, and hope I've shown so far, an active engagement with the ideas rather than a passive, smug, "Oh yeah? Convince me." attitude.

Also, who doesn't like to talk about why their favorite character is awesome? If you let me, I'd go on all day about mine, even after so long emot-keke

Aelanie wrote:

With regard to Juri, I'll say - or rather repeat - only this:

... the duels, even from the beginning of the show, aren't really about a contest of sword skill, it's a clash of wills. The strongest willed ALWAYS wins, and that's why Utena can win with ease over kendo stars, fencing club members, etc. etc. None of that matters. It's about the steel in your spirit, not your blade.

And this is also why Juri is the only one that Utena never technically defeats. Juri is the only Duelist besides Utena whose will is truly strong, and who resists the temptations that Akio plies the other Duelists with in his End of the World role. Even as Ruka is trying to tempt Juri with the power to obtain anything, she renounces it, saying she needs nothing but her own strength. In Utena, the people who lust after power the least are the ones who have it within them most. That's why Juri was undeniably Utena's most dangerous opponent.

Or rather, that Juri was perhaps the second most promising candidate to be Akio's sacrifice. Do I think Juri could've spiritually overpowered Akio as Utena did? Without a doubt. But, could she have cried tears of princely compassion and opened the gate? I'm uncertain. Juri is at bottom a good and righteous person, but she is proud, and can be cruel, as she is to Anthy herself early in the show. (I believe that of all the Duelists, Juri had by far the best insight into who and what Anthy truly was. She was not fooled by the Rose Bride.) Yet, it's possible she could've been moved by the sight of Anthy at that time. It would've been very interesting to see her in that situation.

As far as Anthy goes, I never thought of her as seeing Anthy for what she was, but that's true, isn't it? I hadn't considered it too deeply because my mind immediately classified that as petty, and I dislike that sort of behavior. But you're right, it's a reaction to the fact that she knows Anthy is manipulating her, and I know this is true because Juri wouldn't slap Shiori. Shiori would be unthinkingly doing something like that, but with Anthy it's deliberate.

Huh.

Also the idea that she could have been a prince is definitely interesting. I've seen that idea come around before, and I'd love to see a fic someday (I can remember at least one existing, but I don't know if it's still floating around somewhere). I do think she's too cold to have empathy for Anthy, though. Anthy isn't innocent, and innocence is the major reason that Juri doesn't hate Shiori.

I guess that's another reason that I can never quite get a handle on Juri by myself. I'd feel exactly the opposite about that sort of situation; innocence is just ignorance. Give me knowledge any day. In that sense, I respect her coldness to Shiori, but the attachment to her escapes me.

Aelanie wrote:

Juri can indeed be haughty and cold at times, but she is also strong, righteous, and honorable. Unlike almost all the other duelists, she has no flaw or vice to be exploited. Her only weakness is an inability to let go of a tragic, hopeless love, and such an honest and sincere fault is not something Akio could successfully twist to his uses. That - and the appearance of a more easily manipulated candidate in Utena - are the reasons she was spared being put in that position.

I love her strength, her integrity, and her ability to endure her pain stoically, day by day.

I have to ask here, because this is the crux of why Juri escapes my comprehension-- doesn't she create her own pain? It always seemed to me that she was in a bondage of her own making, and that if she wanted, she could have let go and stepped out of it. I've been in situations like hers, but my reaction was to murder my feelings as swiftly and thoroughly as possible to avoid that constant tension and pain. I agree that she's strong to be able to withstand it, but at the same time, why doesn't she just kill her feelings? I am honestly confused by this. Can someone explain it to me? You may have to use small words emot-gonk

I know, I'm asking for a lot there, so it's okay if no one wants to address it. It's a personality issue, not just an issue with Juri.

Lurv wrote:

It actually took Juri some time to grow on me as well. Like I thought, yeah, she's strong and talented and all, but why is she so obsessed with Shiori? emot-rolleyes Then I realized that she is a teenager, and even adults can act irrationally when it comes to love (or desire). And Juri even realizes how foolish it is of her to act that way, even though it takes her a while to break free. I still don't love her, but I can sympathize with her and see why people find her so admirable.

Again, this is the hill I'm having a hard time climbing. Why do people act that way and put themselves through that much pain for nothing?

tl;dr: I have some major blind spots when it comes to my understanding of people, and Juri lands in a lot of them.


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#17 | Back to Top08-16-2013 08:47:44 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Yasha wrote:

That's a pretty awful way to see things-- that you're only worth something if you succeed. emot-frown

Wait, that's a pretty Touga/Saionji way to see things. Even more emot-frown

Hahaha, as I was reading this, I was thinking "wow, that sounds like such a Touga-thing to say. No wonder you seem to relate to the character." emot-keke

As for why she doesn't try to kill her feelings... Well, I haven't been in love, so I don't know how I would deal with that, but I know when I feel strongly about something, it can be hard for me to just... get over it, to be honest. And I think I might have said this already, but perhaps Juri is a bit of an emotional masochist.

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#18 | Back to Top08-16-2013 11:45:59 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Yasha wrote:

I have to ask here, because this is the crux of why Juri escapes my comprehension-- doesn't she create her own pain? It always seemed to me that she was in a bondage of her own making, and that if she wanted, she could have let go and stepped out of it. I've been in situations like hers, but my reaction was to murder my feelings as swiftly and thoroughly as possible to avoid that constant tension and pain. I agree that she's strong to be able to withstand it, but at the same time, why doesn't she just kill her feelings? I am honestly confused by this.

Let's be honest...don't we usually make our own pain? And it's not as if she herself knows the reason. Remember that she even remarks aloud to both herself and Utena during the badminton scene: "I wonder why. Why can't I just set these feelings free?" You can't expect her to understand yet. For all her strengths, she is still very young.

But I know the reason, or can guess. If perhaps you don't already know...sometimes, the endurance of pain can be a kind of self-loyalty. It's a loyalty to our own feelings, our own convictions, our own nature and our own past. In an uncharitable mood it might not be unfair to call it a kind of "masochism", or even more unflatteringly a self-indulgent martyrdom, but humans truly do treasure up their wounds and find identity and even strength in carrying them through life.

It's rare for me to be able to speak from personal experience, but I can speak to this one. I was in love once. My first love, my only real love. In time she left me, and I only found out, much later, that she had grown tired of me and had probably been unfaithful to me even during the time we had been together. But I still look back on those days with longing. I still love and long to return to those days and that person I was happy with for a short time back then. Yes, I still love her. I desire no other, and will have no other. Ever.

Is that sensible? No it isn't, and truthfully it's not as if I actually would go back to that - her - now even if I could. But these thoughts and feelings are part of the weave of my life, and I wouldn't be who I am if I could cast that aside so easily.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-17-2013 12:11:51 AM)

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#19 | Back to Top08-17-2013 06:41:15 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Yasha wrote:

Convince me. I want you to do it.

"Show me your so-called nobility!  Show me with your sword!"  :troll:

The funny thing is that Juri's best moments, as a rule, are not in Juri's episodes.  Because, yeah, you're right, Shiori!angst is her defining characteristic for the purposes of her own eps.  (I would make a joke pie chart here if I weren't in a bit of a hurry.)  And you're also right that it's not just Shiori that's the red button.  I'm kind of using Shiori as metonymy here to represent anything that triggers Juri's complex that is centered on Shiori, like Utena's defense of miracles and nobility in episode 7.  (Personally, of course, I am on record as believing that miracles each and every where you look.  No one show Juri that song, okay?)  What I am not posting here is a spirited defense of Juri's angst, though I will attempt a half-hearted one in a bit.  What I'm posting is an acknowledgment of Juri's self-awareness and other-awareness.

The comparison between Utena's love for Anthy and her love for Shiori was something I never gave her credit for doing; in my eyes, it was always a mark against her for being mistaken about it.

The scene we're talking about, in e37, is interesting because there are both parallels and contrasts between those two relationships.  Let me quote it:

Juri:  Thinking back, despite being a member of the Student Council, I was thinking only of myself.
Juri:  And it's pathetic, but I've got my hands full with my own problems even now.
Utena:  Are you talking about Shiori-san?
Juri:  Why is it?
Juri:  Why can't I have any control over my own feelings?
Juri:  What will you do about Anthy?
Utena:  What?
Juri:  You love her, right?
Utena:  Well...it's not like your "love".
Utena:  Mine is pure, and...well, I guess yours is pure too, but...
Utena:  But I can't...Himemiya...
Utena:  any longer...

In context, I don't think Juri is trying to say that Utena loves Anthy romantically, like Juri loves Shiori (though that's how Utena seems to hear it).  I think Juri's trying to say that Utena loves Anthy unconditionally (she doesn't have any "control over her own feelings"), like Juri loves Shiori.  And on that point she is quite right.  Anthy literally tries to murder Utena and the series still ends the way it does.  I'm curious: do you think Utena's refusal to give up on Anthy is as silly as Juri's continuing fixation on Shiori?  Would you ask about Utena, "Why do people act that way and put themselves through that much pain for nothing?"

And also, as long as I've got that part of the script pulled out, the first two lines of Juri's dialogue here are the very picture of her putting her problems in perspective.  She's owning her selfishness and implicitly apologizing for it, even if she's not transcending it.  Her conflict and Utena's are intertwined in this way as well: Utena too loves Anthy selfishly for most of the show, reading Anthy's feelings to be whatever she wants them to be, and Utena has trouble owning that the way Juri is doing here.  Utena's angst in this scene is focused on the discovery that -- surprise! -- Anthy does have feelings and they're not the same as Utena's idealized version of Anthy's feelings.  Juri is ahead of Utena in this respect.  She's stuck further down the road: she knows Shiori's feelings aren't what she wants them to be, but her problem is moving on.

And from what you say, it sounds like that's where you're getting hung up with Juri.  Why can't she just put down the flame and move on with her life?  I don't think there's anything particularly romantic or noble about this part of Juri's character.  (If Saionji wore a locket with a picture of Anthy in it, we would say that that's creepy and inappropriate.)  But I can attest that it's very human.  After a relationship ends when you didn't want it to, it's not uncommon, I think, to not only feel miserable over it, but also enjoy feeling miserable over it, and feel like your misery makes you virtuous, like if you ever stopped feeling miserable then it would mean you didn't really love that person in the first place.  At least, this has happened to me (a couple times, actually).  I did stop feeling miserable eventually, of course, and I think Juri has as well.  But last year I got an email from my last ex, and delighted though I was to hear from her, it also brought painful feelings back to the surface.  It never really goes away.  It's just that the events of the show bring Juri's pain very close to the surface in the same way.  Have you ever had an experience like that?

Damn, I gotta go.  I think the above represents at least one complete thought?  Talk later! emot-smile

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#20 | Back to Top08-17-2013 07:30:07 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

satyreyes wrote:

In context, I don't think Juri is trying to say that Utena loves Anthy romantically, like Juri loves Shiori (though that's how Utena seems to hear it).

Although this is stepping into subjects beyond the scope of this thread, I'm afraid I must vehemently disagree on that point. emot-tongue

Juri is the only other female character in the show who is anything like a relatable "equal" to Utena, and indeed, Ikuhara states that that was intended. Her importance in this role, and the unique influence it gives her over what occurs, cannot be overstated.

In the same way that I believe Juri was the one who most clearly discerned what Anthy was behind the vapid-doll mask of the Rose Bride, so too was she able to correctly discern the nature of Utena's love - romantic love - for Anthy. Come on. Who would know better than she? She of all people would be the one to perceive that Utena was love with another girl. Utena tries to deny it, but her equivocations quickly run out of steam. She was caught, and they both know it.

That most pointed and knowing of questions, asked by the sharp and experienced Juri, is what makes Utena realize what her feelings are, and that to me is what sets the stage for everything that comes after. It is one of the most pivotal moments of the show. It's also an echo of the moment when Juri lent Utena her sword before facing Touga and taking Anthy back at the end of the Student Council arc. Both times, it is Juri's comradeship as a relatable female equal that allows Utena to move forward. Both times, her intervention is what gives Utena direction and an understanding of what she really wants.

And that is yet another reason I love Juri. Utena couldn't have done it without her. It's not for no reason that in the Movie, she was the one driving the rescue vehicle.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-17-2013 07:54:04 AM)

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#21 | Back to Top08-17-2013 09:19:04 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Aelanie wrote:

In the same way that I believe Juri was the one who most clearly discerned what Anthy was behind the vapid-doll mask of the Rose Bride, so too was she able to correctly discern the nature of Utena's love - romantic love - for Anthy. Come on. Who would know better than she? She of all people would be the one to perceive that Utena was love with another girl. Utena tries to deny it, but her equivocations quickly run out of steam. She was caught, and they both know it.

It sounds like we might disagree about the nature of Utena's feelings for Anthy, but I think our disagreement about Juri's meaning is almost completely semantic.  We agree that Juri knows Utena's mind better than Utena knows her own.  (Remember, at this moment Utena is in love/hate mode with Anthy.)  We agree that Juri correctly identifies Utena's feelings as unconditional love, and specifically, love of a kind that will require Utena to take action and make hard decisions.  It sounds like you think that Juri means to go further and say that this is romantic love, while I don't think Juri means to go that far, but either way, the effect she means to have on Utena is the same: prodding her to acknowledge her own feelings and act on them.  The exact shade of Juri's meaning that we disagree about might color my understanding of Utena's character, but I don't think it colors my understanding of Juri's.

It's also an echo of the moment when Juri lent Utena her sword before facing Touga and taking Anthy back at the end of the Student Council arc.

Absolutely.  And this is a moment that it's odd we haven't mentioned yet in this thread, because I think that moment gives most people a little shock when they see it for the first time!  Up till now, Juri had presented herself as a fickle friend to Utena at best.  Now she forcefully transfers her sword to her.  There is no hint of ambivalence in her face or gesture.  I can think of two sustainable ways to interpret this:

- Sometime between Juri's miraculous defeat in episode 7 and now, Juri decided that this Utena girl is worth caring about, or at least deserves to be heard out.  She sees Utena in her funk, and while she can't give Utena friendship, she can at least give her a sword.  So in this scene she's trying to help Utena reclaim the Rose Bride, the better for Utena to understand her own feelings.  Or,

- Juri doesn't particularly care for Utena at this point, but Touga is even more insufferable.  His strutting at the last Student Council meeting and his behavior towards Utena in the interim have convinced Juri that she'd rather see anyone claim the Bride than Touga.  So in this scene she's helping Utena because Utena is the challenger, not out of any personal fondness or sympathy.

These explanations aren't mutually exclusive, of course.

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#22 | Back to Top08-17-2013 10:25:48 AM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

satyreyes wrote:

These explanations aren't mutually exclusive, of course.

I like to think it's a bit of both, yes. emot-biggrin

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#23 | Back to Top08-17-2013 10:53:35 AM

Kita-Ysabell
Covert Diarist
Registered: 11-18-2012
Posts: 818
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

As far as Juri's potential as a duelist and the parallels between her relationship with Shiori and Utena's with Anthy, I think that maybe the thing that Juri is really stuck on is her resentment.  She can't let go of her expectations that Shiori "should" have feelings that complement her own, and so resents and blames Shiori for this perceived fault-- note how disparagingly she compares Utena to Shiori before their first duel, and how she refuses to accept Shiori's apology before Shiori's Black Rose duel.  Her regard for Shiori might be unconditional, but it isn't entirely positive.  This might be what Utena is getting at when she implies that Juri's love for Shiori isn't "pure," but she does so while backpedaling, probably because she doesn't trust her own intuitive understanding of the situation and doesn't want to insult Juri.

Likewise, while Juri sees through Anthy's mask of passiveness, all she sees behind it are the cruel machinations, not the suffering and desperation, possibly because she's too focused on how Anthy has manipulated her.  Given that Anthy is the one who often rigs the duels, and that the "winner" is chosen when Anthy finds "a prince she can believe in," I really can't see Juri making a whole lot of progress in the duels.  Just as Juri's resentment of Shiori prevents her from forming a closer bond, her resentment of Anthy would prevent her from taking the leaps of faith that allow Utena to succeed.

Which probably ties back into the whole "miracles" thing. Juri wants to be able to trust Shiori, (and, as a duelist, maybe Anthy, too) but she doesn't know how to go about it, and so rather than taking the first step herself, she waits for some kind of signal or reassurance while simultaneously denying the possibility of such a signal.  Meanwhile, she believes that the reason for her mistrust of Shiori (and Anthy) is that they are fundamentally untrustworthy.  As a viewer, it's easy to see Shiori through this lens, but keep in mind: we have never seen what happens when someone actually trusts her, and allows her to define her feelings while keeping their own expectations in check.

I dunno, I'm sleep deprived and making this shit up as I go.  I'll probably come back to this when not brain-addled and be like, "whut?"


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#24 | Back to Top08-17-2013 12:39:24 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

As far as Juri's potential as a duelist and the parallels between her relationship with Shiori and Utena's with Anthy, I think that maybe the thing that Juri is really stuck on is her resentment.  She can't let go of her expectations that Shiori "should" have feelings that complement her own, and so resents and blames Shiori for this perceived fault-- note how disparagingly she compares Utena to Shiori before their first duel, and how she refuses to accept Shiori's apology before Shiori's Black Rose duel.  Her regard for Shiori might be unconditional, but it isn't entirely positive.  This might be what Utena is getting at when she implies that Juri's love for Shiori isn't "pure," but she does so while backpedaling, probably because she doesn't trust her own intuitive understanding of the situation and doesn't want to insult Juri.

That's interesting.  I had read it as Utena denying that she was romantically attached to Anthy as Juri is to Shiori, but maybe we shouldn't give Utena that much credit for gaydar. emot-biggrin  Maybe she is referring to Juri's mixed feelings about Shiori.  Utena's feelings about Anthy, however, certainly are profoundly mixed at just this moment, which gives a different reading to her trailing off.  It's an interesting point.  I may go listen to the Japanese later and see if I can pull any nuance out of the conversation, if no one beats me to it.  (Please, someone, beat me to it.  I probably have the least operational Japanese of any initiate on IRG. emot-biggrin)

Last edited by satyreyes (08-17-2013 12:41:33 PM)

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#25 | Back to Top08-17-2013 01:05:55 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Oranges And Blackberries[Juri Rant]

satyreyes wrote:

maybe we shouldn't give Utena that much credit for gaydar.

"Gaydar" has nothing to do with it. Utena knows the nature of Juri's love due to what's already unfolded at that late point in the series. She doesn't need to be credited with perception, it was already fully displayed and revealed to her. That's why she completely understands the nature of the parallel Juri is drawing about the romantic nature of her own love for Anthy. She gets what Juri is doing, and that's why her denials falter. Juri isn't actually asking Utena if it's true, she's telling Utena that it IS true, and Utena suddenly comes to the realization that Juri is correct.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-17-2013 01:18:39 PM)

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