You are not logged in.

Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top01-04-2007 02:39:52 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Lightice wrote:

Blade wrote:

Quite so. This could all be taken to a discussion thread about the movie, perhaps.

Well, I'm still doing the derailing - if someone'd be kind enough to start a new thread - I feel awkward trying to summarize passed discussions in new threads...

That's why we don't summarize, we copy/paste it. emot-dance

The discussion so far:

A Day Without Me wrote:

Wait, movie-Miki wasn't mean, was he? Just seemingly more inclined towards incest (bathtub scene, anyone?).

Blade wrote:

Probably destined for a different thread, but Movie-Miki, like most of the other characters besides Touga, was a "darker" version of the series character. Aside from it being heavily implied he murdered Kozue, he notes his reasons for being in the duelling game is that he's always craved power.  Personally, I wanted to see more of him. emot-biggrin

Lightice wrote:

Um, what?

Seriously, WHAT?!

Just what movie I've seen and is it the same you saw? Miki killing Kozue? The only thing that can describe my mental state to that interpretation is WTF.

Syuria wrote:

emot-aaa Waahh, I must be dimmer than I though, I never realised that it was implied Miki murdered him sister. That's... quite a twist on his character. That's amazing,in a rather twisted way, why didn't I notice?! Sorry to drag off topic, but in what part of the movie did that happen?

Razara wrote:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a133/RzMule/untitled.jpg
Juri: "Why are you a duelist?"
Miki: "Because I was chosen, of course."
Juri: "But you could have refused."
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a133/RzMule/untitled2.jpg
Miki: "My wish is always to obtain more power."
Juri: "That's so mean."
(I'm reciting for memory, so I hope that all of that is correct.)

My second time through the movie, I noticed the lisence plate and realized that Miki had turned Kozue into a car. However, I've never really considered the idea of it being murder. I'd like to hear your views on the matter, Blade.

Ragnarok wrote:

Turning into a car can be interpreted a lot of different ways. And the three (ok, four) cases wherein it occurs are all different as well.

Utena is turned into a car against her will, but it furthers her desire to take Anthy into the real world.

Shiori willingly becomes a car to chase after Anthy/Utena to either stop them from leaving, or beating them to the punch.

Kozue is turned into a car by Miki after she threatens to slit his throat.

(Wakaba becomes a truck, presumably willingly, to save Utena.)

Further "going to the outsideworld" is seen by those in Ohtori as a fatal pursuit. And one interpretation can be that in order to become an adult, you must die as a child. Death of innocence and purity in order to be reborn (phoenix/ohtori) as mature and knowledgable.

Miki deals with Kozue's insubordination by turning her into a car, effectively ending her childhood. Which in Ohtori is akin to murder. Plus the red light on the duck and bathwater giving it a bloodish resemblance. Ergo Miki can be said to have murdered his sister.

Lightice wrote:

I never interpreted Miki turning Kozue into a car - what I taught in that scene was that there is a car in that room for everybody in Ohtori, or possibly just for the Black Rose duellists (though as we know, there are many, many more of them than there are Black Roses in the series). In any case, my presumption has been that the car can exist separate from the body, at least when inactive. Nothing in Miki's words imply, at least, that he'd had something to do with it. The duck is there just to implicate the thing that has power over Miki, same way as Shiori has power over Juri.

Miki wants more power essentially for the same reason as Juri, although he won't admit it. As he is, he doesn't have the power to completely let go of Kozue. That's been my interpretation and remains that way, unless someone can give very convincing evidence otherwise. But ofcourse the movie being as it is, there are plenty of different yet valid ways of interpreting it.

Syuria wrote:

Ah, I remembered the Kozue car briefly, but I never saw the connection between that and the idea that Miki had murdered her. The second screen shot you posted does suggest a murder, and I rewatched that part of the movie and i never realised until now just how creepy that scene is. Go Miki for finally standing up to Kozue!... By turning her into a car? Oh well, this is Ohtori after all.

I'm not sure how much it can been seen as of giving up your childhood and "dying" in that sense in Ohtori, as if my memory's corrent in one of the last scenes Wakaba's back as a girl showing a guy around Ohtori like she did with Utena. Then again, Wakaba seems to represent having a "normal" like at Ohtori away from all the duels, but... Gah, the movie manages to break my brain even more that the series, which is definately an achievement.

hyacinth_black wrote:

<Quoting Blade>
He... did?

I thought that it was implied that Kozue murdered him! (or at least tried to)

I... I think I have to rewatch the movie...

Heheh... I think Movie-Miki was trying to be more suave like Series Akio because Movie-Miki has a mullet!!!  Or at least a very thick rat tail that wishes it was a mullet.

Blade wrote:

As has already been said (though that sounds like a fansub script). The first time we hear of Kozue is Wakaba saying how Kozue is very jealous of Miki and doesn't let him have a girlfriend. We then see them in the bath, where Miki tells Kozue they can't go back to childhood, then she threatens him with the razor. Next time we see Miki (who is perfectly fine), there a bloody rubber duck from the bath lying on the floor, and the Kozue Car rises behind Miki while he says, quite calmly, that he's always been only interested in power. Then we never see or hear of Kozue again (including as a car, because all the nondescript cars don't have names in the final scenes).

While I will grant some people don't believe Miki killed Kozue, it's hardly an unknown or radical new theory. The implications that something bad happened to her between scenes are pretty strong.

Lightice wrote:

Um, the duck isn't bloody. That's water from the bath, if you look at the reflections. The red colour is due to the lighting, not the actual colour of the liquid. When seen with Kozue, Miki doesn't seem to have slightest inclination towards violent actions, nor does he afterwards act like a person who has just killed someone - not unless he's a bigger psychopath than anyone either in the movie or the series, movie-Shiori included. Nothing implicates him in such a dark role - instead he's one of belevolent friends who save Utena and Anthy in the last minute.
Miki says that he wants power, but unlike Juri doesn't tell the purpose - the duck is there to imply that his reasons are the same as Juri's, to be free from the person that binds him.
And as for the car, unless my memory is completely messed up, we actually see Shiori-car rising next to Juri, just like we see Kozue-car next to Miki, despite of us seeing Shiori in the very next moment.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#2 | Back to Top01-04-2007 02:50:36 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Just would like to say thank you for creating a thread and referencing all the previous comments from the other thread - I'd been meaning to do so myself, but I'm suffering from extreme laziness at the moment ^^;

As for the water around the Ducky being red, I sort of took that to be symbolic of blood, not actual blood. Miki is bound by his sister, and the price of trying to break free of her hold would be dangerous - she's harm him or kill him, hence the symbolic blood. And you realize that Miki at least seems to think there is a real possibility Kozue would actually harm him - if you look at his facial expression when Kozue's holding the razor to his throat in the tub scene you notice that Miki truly looks scared - he doesn't doubt she might slit his throat!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/thoudeadringer/Other/Utena%20Wallpapers/temp.jpg?t=1167947737

However, if the red water had been shown alone, the connection to Kozue and her power over Miki would not have been as clear, so the duck had to be included.

I gotta gather my thoughts on this a little more, my ideas are running all over the place and I can't quite organize them completely yet.

EDIT: The screen cap I'm using? I originally got it from Empty Movement.

Last edited by A Day Without Me (01-04-2007 02:57:25 PM)


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

Offline

 

#3 | Back to Top01-04-2007 03:00:14 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Syuria wrote:

I'm not sure how much it can been seen as of giving up your childhood and "dying" in that sense in Ohtori, as if my memory's corrent in one of the last scenes Wakaba's back as a girl showing a guy around Ohtori like she did with Utena. Then again, Wakaba seems to represent having a "normal" like at Ohtori away from all the duels, but... Gah, the movie manages to break my brain even more that the series, which is definately an achievement.

I believe you're recalling Wakaba's scene at the end of the series, wherein she's with Tatsuya and an unnamed girl glomps her. The movie doesn't go back to Ohtori once the carwash of doom shows up. Although, it is implied that Wakaba is taking the duellists back to Ohtori and that they will try to leave on their own at a later time. Nonetheless, we don't see Wakaba as a girl after we've seen her as a jeep.

Lightice wrote:

Um, the duck isn't bloody. That's water from the bath, if you look at the reflections. The red colour is due to the lighting, not the actual colour of the liquid.

This is true, it is water and not blood. However the lighting that tints the water red is symbolic of blood. There's no indication within the movie that turning into a car involves blood at all, at the least it's not the case with Utena.

Lightice wrote:

When seen with Kozue, Miki doesn't seem to have slightest inclination towards violent actions, nor does he afterwards act like a person who has just killed someone - not unless he's a bigger psychopath than anyone either in the movie or the series, movie-Shiori included. Nothing implicates him in such a dark role - instead he's one of belevolent friends who save Utena and Anthy in the last minute.

I doubt Miki would get violent with a razor blade put to his throat. Struggling at that point would go very badly, in most cases. Now I don't think that turning someone into a car is completely equivilent with murder, either. It's more like a kind of stasis in Kozue's case, as she is removed from the picture. But forcibly so.

There's also more than one way to be a psychopath. Shiori gets emotional, whereas Miki could simply be cold and detached.

In regards to being on the Wakaba-jeep: Saionji's there too and I don't see him as a benevolent character in the movie at all. He also promises to seduce Anthy in the outside world. Even Juri lacks any motivation due to kindness, so far as I can tell. Wakaba yes, but the other three are letting Anthy and Utena test run the track into the real world for them.

Lightice wrote:

Miki says that he wants power, but unlike Juri doesn't tell the purpose - the duck is there to imply that his reasons are the same as Juri's, to be free from the person that binds him.

If this is the case, where does Kozue go for the rest of the movie?

Lightice wrote:

And as for the car, unless my memory is completely messed up, we actually see Shiori-car rising next to Juri, just like we see Kozue-car next to Miki, despite of us seeing Shiori in the very next moment.

I believe we see a car rising up behind Juri, but not one with a visable license plate. My memory's not that clear, though, so I could be wrong.

The car that Utena turns into clearly contains Utena. The car with Shiori's name and voice presumably contains Shiori. Likewise Wakaba and Kozue. I don't think there's anything to indicate otherwise.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#4 | Back to Top01-04-2007 03:05:58 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Ah, good thing I caught this before I did it. emot-biggrin

The red liquid in the picture may well be water, but it is water that is bathed in red light to look like blood. In a movie that relies as heavily on visuals and symbolism as the Utena movie, and given the fact the camera deliberately lingers on it, and given the violence of the immediately preceding Miki/Kozue scene, I cannot possibly see that as coincidence. Seriously, I cannot believe that it was not supposed to be taken as blood, either literally or symbolically (which, in Movie Ohtori, is basically the same thing anyway).

I don't buy that Miki needs to be freed from Kozue; I honestly think that interpretation is taken more from series Miki than movie Miki. In the movie, Miki has already cut Kozue off ("We cannot go back to the garden"), He does so calmly and without any particular sense of regret, prompting her to call him a "traitor" for abandoning her. At no point do we see him held back by Kozue or her memory, like Juri is constantly with Shiori. When he talks with Juri underground, he also does so calmly, stating that he has always craved power.  As he does this, the car bearing the name of his now-and-forever-vanished sister rises behind him. Once again, there is no indication that Miki is hesitant, regretful, or held back.

Juri states the truth: she wants to be freed from what binds her. I tend to think Miki is also telling the truth. When he watches Shiori manipulate Juri, he basically thinks "Aha, so that's what binds her." There is no indication Miki is under similar bindings, or recognises Juri's situation as similar to his own, as you might think would be the case if the movie was trying to make the point that Miki and Juri are basically in the same situation.

Finally, Kozue has become a car. When we see them in the end of the movie, the cars have no names. They are all destroyed, and we last see them as rusting junkheaps. I don't think Kozue is coming back to Ohtori, any more than Shiori is.

Essentially, if you watch the scenes, you will notice that unlike in the series (although even in the series, I feel this is actually more just a surface impression than the true state of affairs) Kozue is not the dominant one in their relationship. She clings to Miki, and dances to his tune, not the reverse. She is grooming him, the classic primal indicator of "alpha maleness".  Miki has left her behind, and no longer needs her, as he tells her in the bath. The follow-up scene with Juri (and really, these are the only two scenes of character development Movie Miki gets) reinforces this impression. Sure, he's embarassed that Juri flirts with him, but nothing like series Miki would be, and his embarassment is merely perfunctory, as he drops it instantly thereafter when Shiori shows up. He's calm, powerful, and in control, smirking slightly as he talks about how he has always craved power. Juri even mentions his speech makes him "Just like a man", which I think is telling.

In the movie, Miki is more of an amalgam; one part his TV series self, one part TV Touga. His treatment of Kozue, casually dropping whatever special bond they may have shared as children, mirrors TV Touga's treatment of his own sister. Not that that necessarily means anything deliberate, but I think it's an interesting comparison. 

However, I do believe the scenes strongly indicate that Miki sloughed off his sister because she was a distraction from his real goals, a clinging relic of days gone by. Kozue violently objected to his doing so, and Miki permanently dealt with her. Accordingly, she never appears or is referenced again. The bloody - literally or symbolically - duck and Miki's calm, smirking demeanour while talking about his goals are visual indicators that, I feel, don't jibe at all with the interpretation that Miki is held back like Juri is. Even ignoring the blood, consider the duck. It's not being clung to. It's not in a place of reverence. It's been tossed aside like a piece of trash. Just like Miki has tossed aside Kozue.

Offline

 

#5 | Back to Top01-04-2007 03:30:49 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

In regards to being on the Wakaba-jeep: Saionji's there too and I don't see him as a benevolent character in the movie at all. He also promises to seduce Anthy in the outside world. Even Juri lacks any motivation due to kindness, so far as I can tell. Wakaba yes, but the other three are letting Anthy and Utena test run the track into the real world for them.

There was clearly a strain in time, which is why the scene seems so wierd - there should have been some fleshing out in between the introductions and the ending scene. Saionji is clearl mellowed up from the previous encounter and is doing his version of wishing Utena and Anthy good luck on their journey - considering that he includes Utena to be seduced, as well, I doubt that he's too serious. Juri, too seems quite encouraging to them. While we have no idea what brought this change of minds in them (Utena's nobility? Wakaba beating some sense in them?), they've clearly become supporting to their cause. The main reason, if I'm allowed to guess is that Utena opened the eyes of all of them, giving them the goal to escape the Academy, following her example. As the Shadowgirls say, "friendship saved the day".

If this is the case, where does Kozue go for the rest of the movie?

Wherever unneeded characters go in a movie's time-limit. She never even sees Utena - she's not important enough to involve more than one cameo. You could just as well claim that Touga murdered (and ate! emot-tongue) Nanami before his death because she only gets a cow-cameo.

The car that Utena turns into clearly contains Utena. The car with Shiori's name and voice presumably contains Shiori. Likewise Wakaba and Kozue. I don't think there's anything to indicate otherwise.

Active cars contain their personas, that much is proven. But there are plenty of cars in the tunnel. I've assumed they all have their counterparts in the school, the people who can't let go. Or else there's been lots of murdering in movie-Ohtori...

There's also more than one way to be a psychopath. Shiori gets emotional, whereas Miki could simply be cold and detached.

I still state that if Miki were such a dark character, we'd get a bit stronger reference to it. There is no way such complete turn could be made with the character from the series to the movie. They all have slightly different personalities, but are still recognisable. I could never recognise Miki a cold-blooded murderer.

I don't buy that Miki needs to be freed from Kozue; I honestly think that interpretation is taken more from series Miki than movie Miki. In the movie, Miki has already cut Kozue off ("We cannot go back to the garden"), He does so calmly and without any particular sense of regret, prompting her to call him a "traitor" for abandoning her.

I would call what happens after Miki's statement to symbolize the fact that he can't cut ties as easily as he'd wish. Kozue will always drag him back, even with a threat of violence. Miki believes that only with the Power to Revolutionize the World he can truly cut Kozue off without fear of backing up or even retaliation from her part.

Finally, Kozue has become a car. When we see them in the end of the movie, the cars have no names. They are all destroyed, and we last see them as rusting junkheaps. I don't think Kozue is coming back to Ohtori, any more than Shiori is.

True, but that's because of Kozue's choices, not Miki's.

In the movie, Miki is more of an amalgam; one part his TV series self, one part TV Touga. His treatment of Kozue, casually dropping whatever special bond they may have shared as children, mirrors TV Touga's treatment of his own sister. Not that that necessarily means anything deliberate, but I think it's an interesting comparison.

Here I also disagree. Miki doesn't just throw Kozue aside. He tries to reason with her, saying that she'll always be precious to him, although not in the manner she wishes. He's trying to have a compromise, which she doesn't allow - for Kozue it's everything or nothing.

I could accept Kozue choosing to become a car after this scene, due to her dissapointment and even despair (I agree with her dependence on Miki, btw), but not that Miki would have forced her to that role, with violence or otherwise.

Last edited by Lightice (01-04-2007 03:31:54 PM)


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

Offline

 

#6 | Back to Top01-04-2007 03:43:35 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Lightice wrote:

I don't buy that Miki needs to be freed from Kozue; I honestly think that interpretation is taken more from series Miki than movie Miki. In the movie, Miki has already cut Kozue off ("We cannot go back to the garden"), He does so calmly and without any particular sense of regret, prompting her to call him a "traitor" for abandoning her.

I would call what happens after Miki's statement to symbolize the fact that he can't cut ties as easily as he'd wish. Kozue will always drag him back, even with a threat of violence. Miki believes that only with the Power to Revolutionize the World he can truly cut Kozue off without fear of backing up or even retaliation from her part.

I agree with this - Miki tries to detach himself from her somewhat, but even the mere statement provokes a violent outburst from Kozue. Also, Wakaba comments that Kozue doesn't let Miki date anyone earlier on in the movie - does this sound like a guy free from his sister's control? Hardly. And I again cite Miki's facial expression as Kozue holds the razor to his throat - he is afraid because he doesn't doubt she might actually drag the razor across his throat.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

Offline

 

#7 | Back to Top01-04-2007 04:15:34 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Lightice wrote:

There was clearly a strain in time, which is why the scene seems so wierd - there should have been some fleshing out in between the introductions and the ending scene. Saionji is clearl mellowed up from the previous encounter and is doing his version of wishing Utena and Anthy good luck on their journey - considering that he includes Utena to be seduced, as well, I doubt that he's too serious. Juri, too seems quite encouraging to them. While we have no idea what brought this change of minds in them (Utena's nobility? Wakaba beating some sense in them?), they've clearly become supporting to their cause. The main reason, if I'm allowed to guess is that Utena opened the eyes of all of them, giving them the goal to escape the Academy, following her example. As the Shadowgirls say, "friendship saved the day".

You're certainly allowed to guess, it's required for the movie. My own guess is similar, but slightly different motivation. Utena opens their eyes to the possibility of escaping to the outside world, but that doesn't necessarily endear her into their hearts at all. They want her to succeed and they'll help her do it, because it means they have a chance as well. The shadow girls have a tendency to be slightly off-point as well, I only see Wakaba as acting on friendship and even she only has the opening scenes to establish a relationship with Utena.

Lightice wrote:

Where does Kozue go for the rest of the movie?

Wherever unneeded characters go in a movie's time-limit. She never even sees Utena - she's not important enough to involve more than one cameo. You could just as well claim that Touga murdered (and ate! emot-tongue) Nanami before his death because she only gets a cow-cameo.

If we saw Touga with a knife, fork and stained napkin, I'd totally believe it. We see a car with Kozue's name and we later have three examples of characters turning into cars. There's more indication that this is Kozue's fate than that it isn't. All the named characters are given some sort of resolution. (With the exception of Kanae, who's used to it.)

Lightice wrote:

Active cars contain their personas, that much is proven. But there are plenty of cars in the tunnel. I've assumed they all have their counterparts in the school, the people who can't let go. Or else there's been lots of murdering in movie-Ohtori...

Well again, I don't view it as death in the traditional sense, the cars themselves are certainly active. Nor do I think that every car in the chase scene was forced into that position.

Lightice wrote:

I still state that if Miki were such a dark character, we'd get a bit stronger reference to it. There is no way such complete turn could be made with the character from the series to the movie. They all have slightly different personalities, but are still recognisable. I could never recognise Miki a cold-blooded murderer.

The problem with that is, the series characters aren't turning into the movie characters. The movie is reinventing the characters, then giving them the same name and general appearance. There's no way that series Akio could ever wind up like his movie counterpart. Nor would series Touga likely kill himself to save a drowning girl. Suffice to say this isn't the Miki you are looking for.

Lightice wrote:

I would call what happens after Miki's statement to symbolize the fact that he can't cut ties as easily as he'd wish. Kozue will always drag him back, even with a threat of violence. Miki believes that only with the Power to Revolutionize the World he can truly cut Kozue off without fear of backing up or even retaliation from her part.

It's been a while since I last watched the movie, but does the Power to Revolutionize the World even come up before Anthy and Utena say it at the climax? Miki is interested in gaining power, presumably through the dueling game, but there's no indication he'd need it to deal with his family life. Juri, in turn, does not duel Utena to get away from Shiori. Rather, Shiori manipulates Juri into dueling.

Lightice wrote:

Miki doesn't just throw Kozue aside. He tries to reason with her, saying that she'll always be precious to him, although not in the manner she wishes. He's trying to have a compromise, which she doesn't allow - for Kozue it's everything or nothing.

Exactly, that's what prompts Miki to act against Kozue to get her out of the way, as she's become a threat to him.

A Day Without Me wrote:

Miki tries to detach himself from her somewhat, but even the mere statement provokes a violent outburst from Kozue. Also, Wakaba comments that Kozue doesn't let Miki date anyone earlier on in the movie - does this sound like a guy free from his sister's control? Hardly. And I again cite Miki's facial expression as Kozue holds the razor to his throat - he is afraid because he doesn't doubt she might actually drag the razor across his throat.

I'd say Miki disallowing Kozue to date shows that the control's working the other way around. Granted he's doing something due to how he feels about Kozue, but it's not in response to being controlled. He is the domineering factor of the relationship, and he abuses that position to keep his sister from doing anything he'd disapprove of. Exactly the things we see Kozue's series counterpart do all the time.

Kozue's threat on Miki's life is what changes the relationship Wakaba describes into an actual power struggle. Kozue wants more than Miki's willing to give and, after he extricates himself from her threat of physical violence, he takes the steps necessary to see that it doesn't happen again.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#8 | Back to Top01-04-2007 05:17:30 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Assuming that he really did kill Kozue, or that he at least turned her into a car against her will, then perhaps this explains why it is that we see Dios down in the parking garage.

The red light that shines the color of blood onto the water and the forgotten ducky first shines on the prince. The prince looks in their direction, and then vanishes. The moment he vanishes, chains begin to lift up the car with Kozue's name written on it. The light finally turns off after Miki tells Juri that he desires power, and Juri remarks that his intentions are cruel.

There are no princes in this world, and Miki is no exception. The prince that vanishes represents Miki, the boy she thought to be her prince, yet betrayed her in the end.


... I'm not sure why that came out sounding so philosophical.

Offline

 

#9 | Back to Top01-04-2007 05:44:38 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Ragnarok wrote:

A Day Without Me wrote:

Miki tries to detach himself from her somewhat, but even the mere statement provokes a violent outburst from Kozue. Also, Wakaba comments that Kozue doesn't let Miki date anyone earlier on in the movie - does this sound like a guy free from his sister's control? Hardly. And I again cite Miki's facial expression as Kozue holds the razor to his throat - he is afraid because he doesn't doubt she might actually drag the razor across his throat.

I'd say Miki disallowing Kozue to date shows that the control's working the other way around. Granted he's doing something due to how he feels about Kozue, but it's not in response to being controlled. He is the domineering factor of the relationship, and he abuses that position to keep his sister from doing anything he'd disapprove of.

Except, I said Kozue didn't allow Miki to date, not the other way around.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

Offline

 

#10 | Back to Top01-04-2007 06:46:17 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Remind me to read better. emot-frown emot-redface

That is how it goes, isn't it? I need to rewatch the movie sometime.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#11 | Back to Top01-04-2007 06:52:58 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is. I don't actually have a copy of the movie, so I can't really check that.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

Offline

 

#12 | Back to Top01-04-2007 07:03:08 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Well for that there's always YouTube.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

Offline

 

#13 | Back to Top01-04-2007 07:08:17 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

According to the Software Sculptors translation:

Wakaba wrote:

He's cute and popular...

<Utena staring at Touga>

... but his twin sister interferes... and he can't find a girlfriend because of it, they say.

So it's not control so much as it is getting in the way. Either way, I remembered it wrong...

[edit] - Further, Wakaba does show up at the end, walking ahead of Tatsuya. So I guess she can un-transform.

Alright, so much for understanding the movie!

Last edited by Ragnarok (01-04-2007 07:22:13 PM)


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#14 | Back to Top01-04-2007 07:20:59 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Xu Yuan wrote:

Well for that there's always YouTube.

And that would be quite illegal.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

Offline

 

#15 | Back to Top01-04-2007 07:36:09 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Hm? Well if you ge the movie sometime in thefuture (like I did), after watching it on YouTube (in fact You tube was the reason I was able to finish the series) now all I have is the Black Rose Saga to have and my collection is complete, so I say You Tube is not negative.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

Offline

 

#16 | Back to Top01-04-2007 08:10:29 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Xu Yuan wrote:

Hm? Well if you ge the movie sometime in thefuture (like I did), after watching it on YouTube (in fact You tube was the reason I was able to finish the series) now all I have is the Black Rose Saga to have and my collection is complete, so I say You Tube is not negative.

Well, at least you ended up buying the Utena stuff, but a lot of people who use YouTube don't end up buying the stuff anyway. And I'm not planning on buying the movie any time soon (so broke emot-gonk ), so I myself wouldn't.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

Offline

 

#17 | Back to Top01-04-2007 08:15:28 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Legal or not, it's there. I'm not going to endorse using illegal means to see the movie, the series, or anything else, but I will say I can't blame anyone for doing so. In any case, this isn't the place for a discussion of it-- that would belong in the General forum. emot-wink

The explanation of Miki having thrown off Kozue (by whatever means) makes a lot of sense to me. Actually, it's helped me to make sense of Miki's role in the movie, something I never understood before. Kozue does seem like she's sort of... at Miki's mercy, and to me, that really emphasizes something I'd thought but never put into words about the series-- that Miki is the one with the potential to control their relationship. It's a good rule of thumb that the more emotional you are about something, the less likely you are to be able to control it. Miki doesn't realize this because during the span of the series he's just as emotional as Kozue, but if they had continued being at odds, I suspect he would have gained the upper hand the way he has in the movie.

That brings to mind another thought, actually. In other threads, people have said that the relationships of the duellists were a reflection of Utena and Anthy's relationship. Does this hold true for Miki and Kozue in the movie, or do they serve some other purpose?


Hat Mafia Member: Ratchedface
Je vais mourir pour l ' a e s t h e t i q u e
Internet Atrocity Tourist             -           MY POSTS             ARE WARSHIPS

Offline

 

#18 | Back to Top01-04-2007 08:17:16 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Those two pictures certainly imply that someone murdered something. If Miki murdered Kozue then that makes the story really nihilistic and completely undermines any underlying morality.

But didn't Ikuhara say say that Kozue and Utena turn into cars for the same reason? I can't imagine what that would be, perhaps only he knows. In the "real world" people are always turning into vehicles for someone or something else; that is the best I can come up with so far.

Offline

 

#19 | Back to Top01-04-2007 08:34:34 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Not that I trust my memory in relation to the movie anymore, but (if I recall correctly) Ikuhara intentionally doesn't explain why Kozue has become a car. Much as he will not explain why Utena becomes a car. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's for the same reason.

Incidentally, why doesn't Miki drive Kozue later on? Instead of being a passenger on the Wakaba jeep, he could have been riding in style.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#20 | Back to Top01-04-2007 08:47:57 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Lightice wrote:

I still state that if Miki were such a dark character, we'd get a bit stronger reference to it. There is no way such complete turn could be made with the character from the series to the movie. They all have slightly different personalities, but are still recognisable. I could never recognise Miki a cold-blooded murderer.

Recognisable? I'm afraid I don't understand why you think that.  Touga as a noble, abused ghost? Shiori as a sadistic bitch who twists Juri around her finger and screws a dead man (and occasionally turns into a horde of butterflies or a car)? Nanami as a cow and nothing but? Akio as... Movie Akio? Saionji as a literal frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic? Anthy, a perkily cheerful nymphomaniac? A Shiori-bootlicking Juri who's in love with Touga?

I don't in any way think the movie characters have to be "recognisable" in terms of being anything like their original selves. Miki is recognisable through his situation and his general relationships with people, but so's Shiori. The "complete turn" was made for more characters than Miki, and it's notable that almost all of them are darker, nastier versions of their series selves (with Touga and arguably Anthy the only notable exceptions). There's no reason for Miki to break the trend.

I would call what happens after Miki's statement to symbolize the fact that he can't cut ties as easily as he'd wish. Kozue will always drag him back, even with a threat of violence. Miki believes that only with the Power to Revolutionize the World he can truly cut Kozue off without fear of backing up or even retaliation from her part.

If you like, but to interpret it that way ignores the subsequent scene. Kozue IS cut off, and without any revolutionary power. We see that for pretty much certain, and there's no reason at all to think she did it to herself, and several reasons to think Miki would.  I mean, the symbolic blood, the fact he's arrogantly smirking as he talks about how he's always wanted power and his sister's car-coffin rises behind him... if Miki wasn't the one in control, why wouldn't there be any indication of this? Instead, even if you don't even bring Kozue up, Miki is clearly way more of a jerk than he was in the series. Can you ever see series-Miki talking about how all he's ever really wanted is power?

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/6344/cap100ft6.jpg
Especially looking like this while he does it?

True, but that's because of Kozue's choices, not Miki's.

Kozue doesn't get to make choices that matter, because she's not a Duellist. Again, the otherwise-inexplicable eyebrow grooming makes sense as a symbolic representation of that.

I'll concede it's possible she might have committed suicide after he rejected her, and Miki just doesn't care; that'd also fit the imagery. I doubt it, though. Miki wants to be a man, and "men" take matters into their own hands. That behaviour and attitude would also put him right in line with Saionji and Juri, and directly opposed to Utena and Anthy (who rely on each other), which seems quite appropriate.

Here I also disagree. Miki doesn't just throw Kozue aside. He tries to reason with her, saying that she'll always be precious to him, although not in the manner she wishes. He's trying to have a compromise, which she doesn't allow - for Kozue it's everything or nothing.

His compromise, however, is just a platitude. It's much like how Touga says Nanami's precious to him long past the point where we are quite certain she's not (again, I think they're pretty similar). There's no feeling behind it, which is why Kozue reacts the way she does.

Again, the subsequent scene. She's gone. We see this, as clearly as if they'd shown us a body. Miki doesn't care. He isn't mourning, he isn't sad; he's smirking and talking about power. And, of course, to once again make the comparison, in the series it's Touga who's the one who craves power about all else, and says so on numerous occasions.

Offline

 

#21 | Back to Top01-04-2007 08:48:54 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Ragnarok wrote:

Not that I trust my memory in relation to the movie anymore, but (if I recall correctly) Ikuhara intentionally doesn't explain why Kozue has become a car. Much as he will not explain why Utena becomes a car. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's for the same reason.

Incidentally, why doesn't Miki drive Kozue later on? Instead of being a passenger on the Wakaba jeep, he could have been riding in style.

Well, Kozue's bound for the adult world, and Miki isn't ready for that yet, so he stays on the Wakaba jeep, because I think the impression we're supposed to get for Wakaba is that she isn't ready for the adult world yet, either.

As for Utena, Kozue, and Shiori turning into cars... uh, it's unfortunately quite possible Ikuhara just did it for shits and giggles emot-gonk He really seems to love messing with the fans' minds.

EDIT: Well, I must ask Blade, how did you infer that Juri is in love with Touga? Shiori's still in her locket, after all, and it seemed pretty clear to me that Shiori's the one she's hopelessly in love with in both the garage scene and the dueling scene.

Last edited by A Day Without Me (01-04-2007 08:53:07 PM)


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

Offline

 

#22 | Back to Top01-04-2007 08:49:36 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Ragnarok wrote:

Not that I trust my memory in relation to the movie anymore, but (if I recall correctly) Ikuhara intentionally doesn't explain why Kozue has become a car. Much as he will not explain why Utena becomes a car. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's for the same reason.

Ikuhara's comments on this are HILARIOUS. emot-biggrin He spends the entire Miki/Kozue scene talking about their bathtub. He doesn't even make the slightest reference to either of them.

Incidentally, why doesn't Miki drive Kozue later on? Instead of being a passenger on the Wakaba jeep, he could have been riding in style.

I'll leave it to other to make the inevitable "riding Kozue" jokes. emot-wink

Offline

 

#23 | Back to Top01-05-2007 02:59:39 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Ragnarok wrote:

You're certainly allowed to guess, it's required for the movie. My own guess is similar, but slightly different motivation. Utena opens their eyes to the possibility of escaping to the outside world, but that doesn't necessarily endear her into their hearts at all. They want her to succeed and they'll help her do it, because it means they have a chance as well. The shadow girls have a tendency to be slightly off-point as well, I only see Wakaba as acting on friendship and even she only has the opening scenes to establish a relationship with Utena.

I have simply this thing to say here: it doesn't fit in the movie's theme. This group of people aren't shamelessly using Utena and Anthy as guinea pigs for their own future ascension - they're helping them because they've come to understand the nature of Ohtori and admire Utena for showing them the light.

If we saw Touga with a knife, fork and stained napkin, I'd totally believe it. We see a car with Kozue's name and we later have three examples of characters turning into cars. There's more indication that this is Kozue's fate than that it isn't.

Did Utena die? Or Shiori (before the car-accident, that is)? There is no indication, whatsoever that car=death. Car is either an attempt to escape to the Outside World or to hinder the ascension of others. In either way, death isn't involved in becoming a car.

Nor do I think that every car in the chase scene was forced into that position.

So exactly why would Kozue be?

The problem with that is, the series characters aren't turning into the movie characters. The movie is reinventing the characters, then giving them the same name and general appearance. There's no way that series Akio could ever wind up like his movie counterpart. Nor would series Touga likely kill himself to save a drowning girl. Suffice to say this isn't the Miki you are looking for.

Nevertheless all these characters have characteristics we know from previous encounters: Utena still wants to be a prince, Anthy is still bound as the Rose Bride, Saionji is a loud jerk, Juri is a strong and capable girl, apart from her fixation with Shiori, Shiori is a person who abuses this fixation (though to much stronger degree than in the series), Touga still acts a chivalrious knight in a shining armour (although this time he's doing it for real) and Miki is still a somewhat shy guy with problems with his twin sister.
Differences exist, but not big, overwhelming differences. Even movie-Akio has some things in common with his series counterpart, although due to losing his attitude completely they're less clear.

It's been a while since I last watched the movie, but does the Power to Revolutionize the World even come up before Anthy and Utena say it at the climax?

There are references to "power" and "Revolution" in the discussion between Juri and Miki. The indication is that they duel for the Power to Revolutionize the World, much like their series counterparts.

Miki is interested in gaining power, presumably through the dueling game, but there's no indication he'd need it to deal with his family life.

I see the rubber duck exactly as that indication - a nudge towards Kozue, but in no way a reference to her demise.

Juri, in turn, does not duel Utena to get away from Shiori. Rather, Shiori manipulates Juri into dueling.

Before Shiori comes along, Juri says that she wants to be free from the things that bind her and when Shiori arrives, it becomes clear that she is the most important of those things.

He is the domineering factor of the relationship, and he abuses that position to keep his sister from doing anything he'd disapprove of.

How, exactly? He doesn't make any "domineering" remarks in the very short conversation we see between him and Kozue. He's asking, I repeat asking Kozue to be reasonable in her expectations for him, which she doesn't comply.

his sister's car-coffin rises behind him...

What makes you think of car as a coffin? Isn't it's symbol the exact opposite, in the movie? As I pointed out before, Utena and Shiori definately aren't dead when they become cars.
In any case, the car rising behind him is a quite clear indication for his motives of wanting power. It rises just as he speaks his desire. To me that points to exactly what is behind that desire.

Can you ever see series-Miki talking about how all he's ever really wanted is power?

Not "all", "always". There is a difference. He's always wanted power to be the stronger party in his sibling-relationship. He isn't there, yet.

Especially looking like this while he does it?

He's making a cool act go with a cool statement, but he's not so cool on the inside. Juri, I think, recognises this and turns the conversation to less serious direction.

Kozue doesn't get to make choices that matter, because she's not a Duellist.

So Shiori doesn't get a choice, either, for the same reason? I've always seen Kozue as doing what Shiori does, only in smaller degree.

Again, the otherwise-inexplicable eyebrow grooming makes sense as a symbolic representation of that.

I would call that the symbol of the closeness of their relationship. And a way for her to keep a sharp object near Miki's face, a symbol completely opposite from what you suggest. I don't deny her dependence on Miki, but I'm saying that Miki has very little to say about it.

Again, the subsequent scene. She's gone. We see this, as clearly as if they'd shown us a body.

Eh, not seeing a character where she isn't supposed to be, in any case tells nothing about what's happened to her. It certainly is lightyears away from showing a body.

And, of course, to once again make the comparison, in the series it's Touga who's the one who craves power about all else, and says so on numerous occasions.

Even if the comparsion is viable, which I doubt, would the series Touga murder Nanami in cold blood to get his hands on the power of Dios? That I seriously doubt.

Incidentally, why doesn't Miki drive Kozue later on? Instead of being a passenger on the Wakaba jeep, he could have been riding in style.

A good question - I'd say it's because Miki doesn't have anything to do, at least directly with Kozue turning into a car and doesn't perhaps even know it has happened.

Last edited by Lightice (01-05-2007 03:00:18 AM)


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

Offline

 

#24 | Back to Top01-05-2007 11:04:55 AM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Lightice wrote:

What makes you think of car as a coffin? Isn't it's symbol the exact opposite, in the movie? As I pointed out before, Utena and Shiori definately aren't dead when they become cars.

But Shiori is dead afterwards. And so is Kozue. I'll also note that we see quite clearly from Utena that the body is inside the car. Kozue's body is inside that car.

In any case, the car rising behind him is a quite clear indication for his motives of wanting power. It rises just as he speaks his desire. To me that points to exactly what is behind that desire.

And to me, that points to exactly what he did to prove his desire. Shiori doesn't show up when Juri talks about freedom from what binds her. The fact he turned his sister into a mindless machine - which has already happened - is a pretty clear indicator of his wanting power, yes.

Not "all", "always". There is a difference. He's always wanted power to be the stronger party in his sibling-relationship. He isn't there, yet.

You didn't answer the question. 

Do you, ever, under any circumstances, see the Miki of the TV series saying that line with an arrogant smirk?

So Shiori doesn't get a choice, either, for the same reason? I've always seen Kozue as doing what Shiori does, only in smaller degree.

Nope, Shiori does not. What exactly does Shiori do? She screws Touga, which basically means nothing, since he promptly abandons her. She manipulates Juri... and then Juri does the thing that matters (and, incidentally, abandons her). She turns into a car to escape the world... and is promptly killed for trying. And then what's left of her body is run over by thousands of other cars just to make her impotence utterly and completely clear.

I would call that the symbol of the closeness of their relationship. And a way for her to keep a sharp object near Miki's face, a symbol completely opposite from what you suggest. I don't deny her dependence on Miki, but I'm saying that Miki has very little to say about it.

Then why is her body in a mindless machine while Miki smirks and talks about how he's always wanted power?

Eh, not seeing a character where she isn't supposed to be, in any case tells nothing about what's happened to her. It certainly is lightyears away from showing a body.

Ironically, no, it in fact is exactly like seeing a body.

Even if the comparsion is viable, which I doubt, would the series Touga murder Nanami in cold blood to get his hands on the power of Dios? That I seriously doubt.

I don't. He'd completely ruin Saionji's life to win points with Utena, he'd rape Nanami to get her to duel, but you think he'd balk at murder? I see no real reason to think so. Do you think he wouldn't kill a random person to get the Power of Dios? If he didn't, it'd be a shocking departure from everything we've ever seen about Touga's character. Therefore, the question becomes: does Nanami mean more to Touga than any random person? I'd have to say we're given ample evidence to say "Nope, she does not".  So yes, I have very little doubt that Touga would murder Nanami in cold blood if he needed to to get his hands on the power of Dios.

Offline

 

#25 | Back to Top01-05-2007 03:52:59 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Miki and his amazing Kozue car

Blade wrote:

But Shiori is dead afterwards. And so is Kozue. I'll also note that we see quite clearly from Utena that the body is inside the car. Kozue's body is inside that car.

Utena's body, her living body is inside her car, but a rule can't be derived from a single example. Who are the other cars, in that case? Remember that the tunnel is filled with cars. But even if Kozue's body is there, it's no indication that Miki'd had anything to do with putting it in there.

And to me, that points to exactly what he did to prove his desire. Shiori doesn't show up when Juri talks about freedom from what binds her. The fact he turned his sister into a mindless machine - which has already happened - is a pretty clear indicator of his wanting power, yes.

Except that there is nothing, absolutely nothing to imply that Miki did anything of the sort. You don't even have circumstancial evidence for this. No kind of reference, whatsoever. You only have a feeling, based on an interpretation of the purpose of the position of a rubber duck, which can be understood in several ways and proven in none.

Do you, ever, under any circumstances, see the Miki of the TV series saying that line with an arrogant smirk?

Unlikely. But he isn't series Miki, which I know and acknowledge. However, as I pointed out, none of the movie's characters is completely unrecognisable in relation to their series counterparts. They all have characteristics that make obvious who they are, even if we were only described their actions and words without showing their character-designs - even movie-Akio and even Miki. The character you are suggesting him to be is no Miki, at all but a completely new creation without any kind of relation to the character we know.

Nope, Shiori does not.

She has plenty of choices, though due to her single-minded bent she doesn't use them, much. Perhaps that can be described of being without a choice, but it certainly doesn't mean being without power. She's the one whose is closest to being in control, like Akio was in the series, the one who knows more than anyone else, but still not enough.

She turns into a car to escape the world... and is promptly killed for trying.

No, she turns into a car (which is, in itself a choice, I might mention - no-one forced her in that role) in order to prevent anyone else from escaping the world. That is her choice, though not a very good one.

Then why is her body in a mindless machine while Miki smirks and talks about how he's always wanted power?

Mindless? Was Shiori a "mindless machine"? No, only very, very single- and narrow-minded - much like Kozue. Neither of them can see many options for their own existance. Only a single one. I believe all the cars are incredibly determined, like Shiori to take their actions each for their own reasons. They are, I believe, the movie's version of the Black Rose Duellists, though they don't need anyone to bring out their raging ids - they are doing it to themselves. At least we never see anyone else doing it to them.

Eh, not seeing a character where she isn't supposed to be, in any case tells nothing about what's happened to her. It certainly is lightyears away from showing a body.

Ironically, no, it in fact is exactly like seeing a body.

Sorry, but your logic is completely impervious to me, at this point. How not seeing Kozue in a place, where she isn't supposed to be in any case and where she wouldn't fulfill any kind of story-function can in any way be seen as a truth of her murder? Seriously, I think that you are making an incredibly big deal about a single cameo - something that'd completely change the movie's nature and destroy its conclusion.
"Miki is a cold-blooded, murdering psychopath but...never mind, it doesn't matter, forget about it."
Does this sound like good storytelling to you, even in the surreal, symbolical setting of the movie-Ohtori? Indeed, especially in the setting such as this? It makes absolutely no sense in relation to rest of the movie.

Even if the comparsion is viable, which I doubt, would the series Touga murder Nanami in cold blood to get his hands on the power of Dios? That I seriously doubt.

I don't. He'd completely ruin Saionji's life to win points with Utena, he'd rape Nanami to get her to duel, but you think he'd balk at murder? I see no real reason to think so. Do you think he wouldn't kill a random person to get the Power of Dios?

I would beg differ. You are making him worse than he is. He is a shameless playboy and a selfish bastard, but completely lacks physical cruelty, at least as far as the series demonstrates and is, ultimately still an adolescent boy playing games, even though his setting is much wider than most. He wouldn't rape Nanami, as you suggest - I strongly doubt he could actually rape anybody. Even if he were a cruel enough bastard for such an act, it'd conflict with his sense of aesthetics. He makes a move on Nanami, thats motives are open for interpretation, but whatever they were, he immediately stops when he's pushed away. To me it seems that he was playing with Nanami's confusion, making her understand that she, herself doesn't know what she wants, giving a weak spot for Akio to manipulate her into duelling again. He did a cruel thing to Saionji, but he could have done worse - Saionji could have spent his high-school years in prison.
And no, I don't think he could kill even for the Power of Dios, in his right mind. That's not his style. He'd find another, smoother way, if for nothing else, because such crass act is below him. Remember that in Utena, both movie and series death and killing are extremely serious matters. Not even Akio would kill with light heart, although his reasons aren't bound with empathy.

If he didn't, it'd be a shocking departure from everything we've ever seen about Touga's character. Therefore, the question becomes: does Nanami mean more to Touga than any random person? I'd have to say we're given ample evidence to say "Nope, she does not".

Sorry, but you can stop saying "we", here. I have a very different view of the series-Touga, as well as movie-Miki. I do say that series-Touga still cares about Nanami, although he cares about the power he's trying to gain more. And he would even kill some random person for his goals - he is emotionally and morally a lazy person. That is, he isn't one to put himself in situation that could cause emotional or moral stress, if he can avoid it. And although with his loose morals that is relatively easy, especially as he is skilled at putting the blame on the victim in his mind, there are actions where it just doesn't work.

Sorry, but in your mind Utena is far more filled with cruel psychopaths, than in mine. I only see one psychopathic mentality in Utena and that is series-Akio and even he isn't completely free of emotional attachments. Touga and his Student Council collegues are a far cry from that set of mind.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB 1.2.23
© Copyright 2002–2008 PunBB
Forum styled and maintained by Giovanna and Yasha
Return to Empty Movement