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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top05-22-2013 03:31:37 PM

redRogue
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 05-21-2013
Posts: 19
Website

Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

I'm sorry if this is irrelevant, but this has been eating away at me for a while now. u_u

Because as far as I can remember, all of the other Student Council members have gotten angry about something. Nanami and her jealousy, Juri about her desire to disprove miracles and unrequited love, Saionji about his inferiority complex, and even Miki about his sister. Utena due to other people being dicks and/or something Anthy related; Anthy herself has gotten pissed off a number of times- it's really subtle, but you can tell from her scary-glasses glare. That's not even counting Mikage the Black Rose Duelists! This must mean that every notable character has raged about reasons at one point.

Except Touga. Unless I'm missing something, which I probably am, Touga, not counting Akio and possibly Ruka, is the only main character that has not been overtly infuriated about anything.

So, tell me your thoughts guys. What do you think would totally piss off our favorite bastard playboy? My own guess is if Nanami ever did come to date girls. emot-rofl


"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

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#2 | Back to Top05-22-2013 04:41:56 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

redRogue wrote:

Except Touga. Unless I'm missing something, which I probably am, Touga, not counting Akio and possibly Ruka, is the only main character that has not been overtly infuriated about anything.

Hmm, I thought Akio seemed pissed when Anthy was laughing with Utena and Wakaba, actually.

But Touga? Hard to say. He just seems like the kind of person who doesn't get angry. Or if he does, he hides it well. Maybe he was angry when Akio swept Utena away after the horse-accident, but we can't see his face, so that's up for interpretation.

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#3 | Back to Top05-22-2013 05:05:08 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

redRouge wrote:

So, tell me your thoughts guys. What do you think would totally piss off our favorite bastard playboy?

Well, there's this:
http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/34865-1/Series_ep12_214.jpg

To the point that this then follows:
http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/34915-1/Series_ep13_011.jpg


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#4 | Back to Top05-22-2013 07:04:36 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

redRouge wrote:

So, tell me your thoughts guys. What do you think would totally piss off our favorite bastard playboy?

Well, there's this:

Oh yeah, he did look pretty angry there. emot-rofl

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#5 | Back to Top05-22-2013 08:50:59 PM

redRogue
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 05-21-2013
Posts: 19
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Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

I loved that scene, haha! I interpreted that as shock, but yeah, Touga looks pretty upset there. Enough to go emo for 13 episodes. emot-rofl


"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

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#6 | Back to Top05-23-2013 11:54:36 AM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2346

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

It takes a lot to enrage Touga...but...I think if anybody physically hurt Utena he would lose it. The same might go for Nanami but at best he loves her like a puppy until after the revolution. It's sad that he rarely shows love for his own sister.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#7 | Back to Top06-09-2013 06:21:26 PM

SexingTouga24/7/365
is on a BOAT!
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 2267

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

I would guess that Juri, Utena, etc-saiowank, his sister and the rose bride have frustrated him at some point.

In short, for not doing what he wanted/expected at some point.

In, addition to Akio for his skill/nature of just being frustraing allover...looking at what Akio does in the show; it is apperent he loves to tease...alot.


"If all the world is a stage and all the people players"...then I demand a less shitty part or the ability to get off of the stage. Slowly my sanity slides, slipping, swirling, spiraling...Save Me I need Sleep...Shattering Soon. school-devil "RukaxTouga equals the Fourth of July" MY patriotic celebration...FUCK ME TOUGA AND RUKA NOW!! etc-wankgirl etc-wankdude

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#8 | Back to Top06-29-2013 01:03:05 AM

Katzenklavier
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Snicker and imitate him in a chipmunk voice while he's on top of you. Give him a butt-plug custom-made out of Akio's hair and say it's to remind him of who his ass belongs to. Stand around campus while he's walking with his sister and exclaim, "Oh look! It's the prettiest little princess in all of Ohtori! And Nanami too!"

I think that would do it, especially if you were looking to number your days at the school.


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#9 | Back to Top07-08-2013 10:01:15 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Katzenklavier wrote:

Give him a butt-plug custom-made out of Akio's hair and say it's to remind him of who his ass belongs to.

As hilariously awesome as this is, it probably wouldn't phase him because you're openly and deliberately trying to anger him. He has walls up for that and would never give someone the satisfaction.

I don't think he allows himself open displays of anger. What he does allow...is women. Saionji smacks them, Touga bangs them. Their emotional content is very similar. school-freud


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#10 | Back to Top07-09-2013 12:54:19 AM

Chrome Homura
Poor Saionji :(
From: Oregon, USA
Registered: 06-07-2010
Posts: 517

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Giovanna wrote:

I don't think he allows himself open displays of anger. What he does allow...is women. Saionji smacks them, Touga bangs them. Their emotional content is very similar. school-freud

I think it's worth pointing out that their basic attitudes in general mirror eachother rather neatly. Sai is known for having a short temper: He's quick to anger, and overall doesn't shy away from honestly expressing his emotional state in any given situation. With that in mind, perhaps it's possible Touga's mindset is directly influenced by his perspective of his "friend". I could easily see his thought process being consciously driven by the idea that he doesn't approve of how readily Sai makes himself vulnerable, and one might even go so far as to say he strives to be the exact opposite for that reason alone.


"My blood is steel, my heart is glass... I have emerged unvanquished from many battles... Never have I been put to flight, but neither have I stood victorious... This bearer stands here alone, forging steel atop a hill of blades... for that reason, my life has never needed meaning. My body has always...

been made of infinite swords!"

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#11 | Back to Top07-10-2013 01:44:59 AM

Katzenklavier
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

As hilariously awesome as this is, it probably wouldn't phase him because you're openly and deliberately trying to anger him. He has walls up for that and would never give someone the satisfaction.

I disagree. Touga, as shown throughout the series, has a certain respect for the status quo ("But...I'm not old enough to do that!"). While not as openly traditional or conscious about saving face as Saionji, he certainly subscribes to his own entitlement. Utena provokes his wrath when she very bluntly and openly rejects him. True, it's quiet at first, but culminates in a violent rape metaphor. Sexually aggressive narcissists and their ways. school-freud

Sullying his reputation and mocking his entitled attitude in a good public venue would probably get a reaction out of him. You wouldn't see, hear, or know it for a good stewing while, but it'd hit like a sudden trip to the incinerator.


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#12 | Back to Top07-12-2013 12:44:54 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
Website

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Oh when I'm talking about displays of anger I mean more the Saionji WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE FUCK YOU YOU DON'T KNOW ME I DO WHAT I WANT stuff. Touga's probably patient enough to wait until his display of anger is masked in something else, like a sex metaphor or a power play. Certainly, he's had long enough watching Saionji get mad to know about how productive that is. By the show, Yasha just said she doubt he thinks he feels anger at all. And I can't really think of any immediate reactions he has that aren't shock more than anger. He's shocked when he loses the duel, he's shocked when Akio is all LOLS MY PEENER SMELL IT DOES IT SMELL FAMILI-OH WAIT THAT'S RIGHT UTENA REJECTED YOU. If he gets truly angry anywhere, it was in the second arc, withdrawn from the world, where his disgust at his failure could simmer.

Frustrated, he does seem to get frustrated with Nanami and Saionji at times, but it's not seriously frustration, it seems more like the 'frustrated' you get when a kitten keeps getting tangled in your hair.

I think you're totally right that he acts entitled, but I think that means living up to the rich asshole persona, which includes being too above the filth to acknowledge it. Someone verbally accosting him in the middle of lunch period is probably going to get a comeback to turn the crowd against them, not an onslaught, immediate or delayed, of anger. His sense of entitlement is so built up around him that it's shocking more than angering when it's challenged, in part because he's naive. He thinks he's got it all down, that he's had it hard already and has proven himself better than any other jackass in the school.

Which is a funny contrast to Akio, who does get immediately visibly angry when his entitlement is challenged. (The instability that builds as Anthy seems less firmly until his thumb results in more than one angry display.)


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#13 | Back to Top07-17-2013 12:00:19 AM

Katzenklavier
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Huh. That is a very good question. Does Touga actually get angry? Now that I think about it, you may be right. Simmering resentment or shock may not really qualify. I do think that his very aggressive attack on Utena in the second duel may qualify as an angry outburst, but it could also be pure mockery and entitlement coming into play. As to outright obvious rage, he not only doesn't seem to show it, but the more interesting question...can he? Brain. Blown. Bloody. Bits.

In many ways, his affect seems restricted and muted. Not only does he seem to never express rage, but there are few indications to suggest passion, joy, sorrow, etc. Even when he's professing his love for Utena near the end, he's intellectualizing the experience and conceptualizing it in terms of princesses, princes, and generic fairytale fluff. He frequently refers to fantasies instead of emotionally charged realities, such as the rift with his sister being "romantic" and an abused Anthy as "a little bird in her cage." It's an oddly childlike and socially stunted tendency for someone so charming and manipulative.

Does it suggest, as you say, naivete? I know you're using in the sense of his being overly confident of his power and position, but the idea of him being as bound by childlike fantasies as Utena is intriguing. Maybe he's so emotionally restricted because he's off in la-la land with his harems of poor princesses lying prone at his feet. Dear god, Touga isn't a sociopath, he has ADHD.

Also:

Giovanna: LOLS MY PEENER SMELL IT DOES IT SMELL FAMILI-OH WAIT THAT'S RIGHT UTENA REJECTED YOU

Can I use that sometime? Not sure how I'll incorporate that into my day-to-day life of endless psychotherapy, but it will be done.

Last edited by Katzenklavier (07-17-2013 12:00:53 AM)


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#14 | Back to Top07-18-2013 12:43:16 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Katzenklavier wrote:

In many ways, his affect seems restricted and muted. Not only does he seem to never express rage, but there are few indications to suggest passion, joy, sorrow, etc. Even when he's professing his love for Utena near the end, he's intellectualizing the experience and conceptualizing it in terms of princesses, princes, and generic fairytale fluff.

Emotionally speaking, I find Touga to be just as much of a "computer-like man" as Mikage, as both their villain moments have to do with their intellectualizing their options and chosing what would serve them purpose - even at the cost of hurting others; I'd go further to say Touga's hesitance to drive Akio's car in EP 25 an extension of his wooden, computer-lite reasoning (underaged boys don't drive . . . not even on Roads to Ends of the World).

I personally buy Yoji E's theory that TV Touga's emotionally computer-like state - coexisting with his rent-boy-ish sexuality - to be a side effect of the childhood sexual abuse he suffered (like in the Movie); others may disagree though.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#15 | Back to Top07-18-2013 01:41:22 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Touga strikes me as not a genuine psychopath, but someone who thinks he is and therefore tries to live up to that image despite it being against his first nature. This explains why he's so awkward with Utena late in the series; he's so used to being behind the wall that he doesn't know any other way to live.

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#16 | Back to Top07-18-2013 03:07:08 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Atropos wrote:

Touga strikes me as not a genuine psychopath, but someone who thinks he is and therefore tries to live up to that image despite it being against his first nature.

This made me laugh for some reason. However, I can see it that way as well. That it's some sort of defense-mechanism. Real emotions just get in the way, after all.

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#17 | Back to Top07-18-2013 04:06:12 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Sort of like a theory I read that said that Gendo Ikari's 'Just according to the scenario' shtick was a device for coping with panic.

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#18 | Back to Top07-18-2013 04:10:43 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Touga's a kid trying to be adult, he's a teenage abuse victim acting callous and cool because that's how daddy-Akio seems to play and he's top of the food chain.

I know some people don't like the sex abuse angle, but even if it's not explicitly called that in the TV series, it still is. And I can't read Touga without that blanket of traumatized over him.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#19 | Back to Top07-18-2013 04:14:34 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

I dunno about that; isn't the age of consent in Japan like absurdly low? In any case, Akio is masquerading as a university student - not significantly older than some of the teenage cast.

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#20 | Back to Top07-18-2013 05:18:41 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Atropos wrote:

I dunno about that; isn't the age of consent in Japan like absurdly low? In any case, Akio is masquerading as a university student - not significantly older than some of the teenage cast.

He's masquerading as "not that much older, but adult and in a power position," but he is, of course, considerably older and more powerful, and Touga's at least more aware of that than others.

Age of consent aside, to my mind, it's still very much a power-playing and abuse scenario. I just mean, he's not dead behind the eyes, but if he looks it sometimes, it's maybe because he wishes he was that cool to life. "I'm the Devil, I'm going to mess with everyone you know, and if you're nice and keep your mouth shut, you can ride in the front of the car and visit the back sometimes."

(Or, is Touga much more ignorant than that? I honestly can't remember and need to rewatch. My gut says "this is a guy who's been raped and intimidated a lot," though. The predator's groomed assistant type.)


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#21 | Back to Top07-25-2013 09:02:52 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
Website

Re: Has Touga ever gotten frustrated at something/someone?

Atropos wrote:

Touga strikes me as not a genuine psychopath, but someone who thinks he is and therefore tries to live up to that image despite it being against his first nature. This explains why he's so awkward with Utena late in the series; he's so used to being behind the wall that he doesn't know any other way to live.

I really like this. The idea that Touga would self-diagnose with such a burden, knowing it would create the only construct that saved him from future trauma. Touga thinks he is incapable of extremes of emotion, but that was a choice he made long ago to protect himself. Someone that doesn't react tends to be very boring, so he fakes just enough emotion to get by. He doesn't remember how to deal with real emotions, or the idea that he might place some value on another. He's like the computer nerd that says he has Asbergers because that explains his behavior better than the real cause. Touga thinks of himself as a psychopath because it explains him better than 'I'm walled up in here and terrified of the power others have to hurt me.'


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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