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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top04-23-2013 10:38:44 PM

soberdriver1
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 04-13-2013
Posts: 12

Forgetfullness

It's shown that inside Ohtori at the very end of the series, Utena is barely remembered by everybody inside it except by Anthy.  I do wonder if the reverse is true in that people who leave Ohtori permanently forget much of what happens there like how adults forget much of their childhood.  So I'm wondering if Anthy might find an Utena whose memory of Ohtori & Anthy is as foggy as the others' memory of her. 

Tokiko seems to show that she still remembers what happened at Ohtori even though she's aged and moved on to a normal life though if she visits the grave once a year, it may keep memories fresh.

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#2 | Back to Top04-24-2013 02:04:45 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Forgetfullness

"Time passes slowly. Many things, good and bad, get woven together and repeated. However, there is one certainty inside of me that does not change." - Himeko, Kannazuki no Miko

Himeko speaks of Chikane, her lover. Like Utena and Anthy, they have been separated by fate, but they both knew they would one day meet again - and so it proved.

Utena would never forget Anthy. To be honest, I've always thought the reason the show dwells on the ignorance of everyone else at the end of the show was to demonstrate two things:

1) That human beings are foolish and shallow, and can overlook or forget truly amazing things (or people) that come and go right under their nose.

2) That even those who are directly influenced by such events, and have the trajectory of their lives fundamentally altered by them, can lose sight of what it was that caused those changes.

In short, my interpretation of the end has always been: "Look at these poor fools, still crawling around in their ignorance. Such momentous things happened here in this school, but look at how they turn their faces away, blind to the miracle that flashed by overhead." Even the student council, who were touched directly by Utena's revolution, only retain a little of what came to pass.

But Utena and Anthy will not forget. As the world - that single organic mechanism, that single perpetual motion machine - continues to shift and change eternally, they and their promise are each other's one certainty.

Last edited by Aelanie (04-24-2013 02:10:33 AM)

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#3 | Back to Top04-24-2013 08:28:44 AM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Forgetfullness

soberdriver1:

I will repost here some of what I've since posted in other parts of the forum:

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?p … 49#p249049

No matter what the Shadow Girls are, I think we can all agree that they always convey the "essence" of the truth - the actual plot fact presented via an allegorical play and/or speech.

Thus, in the following scene in Ep 39:

shadow:  This little tramp just started going out with the man of her dreams.
shadow:  She was the one who kept going "Utena-sama, Utena-sama" all the time.
shadow:  Hey, you got a problem with that?
shadow:  Hey, who was Utena-sama again?
shadow:  What, don't you know?
shadow:  Remember? She's that girl who always dressed like a guy.
shadow:  She got hassled by the teachers all the time.
shadow:  Oh, now I remember. Her!
shadow:  But didn't she get hurt real bad and hospitalized a month or two ago?
shadow:  Huh? Hospitalized? I heard she got betrayed by a friend or a lover or something and switched schools.
shadow:  I heard she got in trouble with the Chairman of the Board of Trustees and expelled.
shadow:  Well, not like it matters.

I am certain that is the exact sentiment at the heart of all the students - all with new current pursuits in life - when they do think back on the disappeared Utena.

I know there is a prevailing theory about "magical amnesia" due to a shot of ruin Nemuro Hall shown, which leads to Utena's fate being likened to Mikage/Nemuro's.  But let's remember that Mikage is not young in present time, but is a fake/unnatural existence in the school - his youthful appearance and his building's "rebuilt" state can all be attributed to Projector projections. Thus when Akio "pull the plug" on him, it makes sense for his false existence to crumble - the fact that everyone forgets him is just a dramatic storytelling method to empathize how "the young fake Mikage" is no more, and that most in Ohtori don't know/recognize the old age Nemuro who could still exist (likely off campus).  Utena, on the other hand, is an actually young "present time" adolescent - she is current and real.  It makes no sense that she gets erased off the current reality, especially not after a portion of the Swords of Hate crushed the Dueling Arena illusion - what moral-lession/thematic purpose would having the "triumphant" Heroine magically erased by the Villain serve?

Adding the SC "forgetting" speech:
Nanami:  We should all just hurry up and forget all this.
Miki:  I wonder if this is the sort of thing that can be forgotten.
Juri:  Come to think of it...I've forgotten that boy's name.
Miki:  "That boy"?
Juri:  Long ago, when my older sister was still a child, she nearly drowned in a river.
Juri:  On that day, there was a boy who jumped into the river to try to save her.
Nanami:  And?
Juri:  My sister got lucky and was saved by a nearby adult, but...
Juri:  the boy who tried to save my sister and jumped into the river was swept away.
Nanami:  Did he die?
Juri:  I thought my sister was very cold for forgetting his name so quickly...
Juri:  But now that I try to remember, it seems I've forgotten it too.
Nanami:  Hey...
Nanami:  Hey...
Nanami:  Why'd you tell us that now?

The more I think of it, the more unreasonable the "magical amnesia" theory sounds.  Methinks everyone simply put memories of Utena in the backs of their minds as they got busy with dealing with their present situations, which she's no longer a part of: it is human nature (looking forward without glancing back + ficklness) at work here, nothing more, nothing less.

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?p … 50#p251650

SKU – Utena “seemingly, realistically forgotten” by everyone but Akio and Anthy.
None of the Student Council and Black Rose students outright say or do anything to say an “enchantment-amnesia” (as so many fans had insisted happened) took place.  Unlike in Mikage’s case, no buildings/settings changed when she was gone – another strike against the enchantment amnesia theory. There’s even a Shadow Girls Speech alluding to how the cast are processing Utena’s vanishing: “Wasn’t she that so-and-so who use to do what-and-what?  Well, not like it matters.”  Utena is being “forgotten” in such a way that most real life people are forgotten once they change school/work: by being out of sight.  No longer in the here and now, she quickly got put out of most people’s minds, even while the “changes” she’s made on the students still is apparent – much like now Juri’s sister still lives, while the name of her savior is forgotten by the Arisugawas.  I find Utena’s ending a realistic take on how even the best people get forgotten by our real world, and thus seem relevant and real to me.

soberdriver1 wrote:

Tokiko seems to show that she still remembers what happened at Ohtori even though she's aged and moved on to a normal life though if she visits the grave once a year, it may keep memories fresh.

I believe Tokiko remembers because she sees what happened at Ohtori as still being relevant to her present situation - specifically, the "brotherless state" that no doubt still pains her even unto old age. 

In the same way, I think Utena will remember Anthy vividly, as the latter was the reason she got rushed by the swords and is now on the outside.  Whether she’d still remember details about . . . say, Nanami’s henchwomen and men, however, is another matter entirely.

Hope you find this helpful emot-wink


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#4 | Back to Top04-24-2013 11:48:30 AM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Forgetfullness

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Methinks everyone simply put memories of Utena in the backs of their minds as they got busy with dealing with their present situations, which she's no longer a part of: it is human nature (looking forward without glancing back + fickleness) at work here, nothing more, nothing less.

Especially since they are growing up, and thus are more eager to look forward (compared to the start of the show, where they kept longing back to their childhoods). I don't know if I would have forgotten the name of someone who saved me, but there are definitely people I have forgotten from my past. Actually, I probably would, since I suck at remembering names.

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#5 | Back to Top04-24-2013 01:08:05 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Forgetfullness

lurv wrote:

Actually, I probably would, since I suck at remembering names.

*Nods.*

Unless written down, names are usually the first thing we forget about someone, before their very images too became vague to the mind.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#6 | Back to Top04-24-2013 06:27:53 PM

soberdriver1
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 04-13-2013
Posts: 12

Re: Forgetfullness

I think this thought came to me partly because the last time we see Utena, Utena believes that she's utterly failed.  Often (at least in fiction) when someone feels as if they have failed in a traumatic and painful way, characters often form a memory block.  Though seeing Himemiya again would probably break that block.

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#7 | Back to Top04-29-2013 11:26:09 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Forgetfullness

I agree with shutin.  I think the only magical amnesia in the show is the kind connected to Mikage and the illusions built around him.  Mikage's duelists didn't kind-of-forget about dueling; they forgot completely.  After Mikage was gone, Miki didn't kind-of-forget about Nemuro Memorial Hall; he couldn't even remember its name or any details about what happened there.  So that's what magical amnesia looks like in SKU.  The way people "forget" about Utena at the end of the show looks very different.  They kind-of-remember her.  Some remember her more than others, and others don't remember her but are like "oh, yeah!" when they're reminded.  They remember rumors about her disappearance.   It seems cold that they forgot her so quickly -- like Juri thought it seemed cold that her sister forgot the name of the boy who saved her -- but it's not unrealistic, and I don't think it's magic.

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#8 | Back to Top04-29-2013 04:51:54 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Forgetfullness

Satyreyes wrote:

The way people "forget" about Utena at the end of the show looks very different.  They kind-of-remember her.  Some remember her more than others, and others don't remember her but are like "oh, yeah!" when they're reminded.  They remember rumors about her disappearance.   It seems cold that they forgot her so quickly -- like Juri thought it seemed cold that her sister forgot the name of the boy who saved her -- but it's not unrealistic, and I don't think it's magic.

This is what I used to feel watching the ending, which eventually lead to my writing Seinen Kakumei.   Though looking back on it now, I do realize that it is kinda harsh to place solid blames upon the major chars - especially the SC members. 

The SCs are teens and tweens who got traumatized – worse, emotionally shamed - by Akio and Anthy’s games – it is natural that they’d want to forget everything –including people - associated with the Duels (Nanami put it very well in Ep 39).  Yes, the SCs all know, on a rational level, how Utena’s abrupt disappearance post revolution likely means that she’s in some dire situation.  It is rather cold of them to not at least attempt to find out what had happened, especially after how Juri, Nanami, Miki, and Touga all (somewhat) confessed to liking her (at least as a friend).  Then again, the SCs have all been shown as self-involved individuals who employ wilful blindness as part of their self-defense mechanism: if “remembering” the disappeared Utena means having to face issues/feels they’d rather not face, then I can totally understand why they’d all want to “forget” and move onwards.

Edited to add:

soberdriver1 wrote:

I think this thought came to me partly because the last time we see Utena, Utena believes that she's utterly failed.  Often (at least in fiction) when someone feels as if they have failed in a traumatic and painful way, characters often form a memory block.  Though seeing Himemiya again would probably break that block.

Hmm . . . that's a very interesting point.  Though I think that's also a case of people forgetting what they don't want to remember/deal with.  By this reasoning, I think Utena would be much more prone to forget Akio - who left her sorely humiliated - than Anthy.  In fact, the final shot with Akio getting cut off from the picture - leaving only Utena and Anthy in it - seem to support this possibility.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (04-29-2013 07:14:36 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#9 | Back to Top04-29-2013 10:42:19 PM

soberdriver1
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 04-13-2013
Posts: 12

Re: Forgetfullness

The following's not quite forgetfulness but more like a blind spot. 

I notice that Tokiko's older & knows she's older and that years have passed.  She also seems shocked that Nemuro looks just like he did at the time the hall burned to ashes, but she recognized Akio but doesn't seem to notice that he hasn't aged in the least.  So, I'm wondering whether she knows there's something 'special' about Akio or whether he somehow keeps that thought out of her head.

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#10 | Back to Top04-30-2013 09:28:22 AM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: Forgetfullness

soberdriver1 wrote:

The following's not quite forgetfulness but more like a blind spot. 

I notice that Tokiko's older & knows she's older and that years have passed.  She also seems shocked that Nemuro looks just like he did at the time the hall burned to ashes, but she recognized Akio but doesn't seem to notice that he hasn't aged in the least.  So, I'm wondering whether she knows there's something 'special' about Akio or whether he somehow keeps that thought out of her head.

Soberdriver!  Happy to see you back in this thread emot-dance

I myself believes that Tokiko knows of Akio being superhuman, and that it is the reason why she "choose" him over Nemuro in the Nemuro Research Era - cause she recognized how a "special god" have a much better chance than any mere human at saving her brother (Real Mamiya).  If you ask me, I also get the feeling that both Mr. Kaoru and Mrs. Ohtori know how "special" Akio and Anthy really are, judging by the dark, tension-filled tones of their scenes with the siblings.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#11 | Back to Top04-30-2013 08:50:56 PM

soberdriver1
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 04-13-2013
Posts: 12

Re: Forgetfullness

It makes sense that if she knew about his abilities, she'd definitely try to get Akio's help though I'd always thought of it as Akio going after anybody and everybody because he could & to push Nemuro back on track. 

It makes me wonder a bit about what's going to happen to Akio's memory after Anthy left.  While I'm presuming he's an immortal or close to it and used to a lot of time passing, I wonder if his memory of everything that's happened will remain perfect or will turn strange a long way into the future.  I just have this strange image of Akio looking at the glasses Anthy left behind like Utena looks at the rose ring during the beginning of the series.  I'm assuming that Akio never learns, remains as selfish and stubborn as ever, and remains stuck in his coffin.   Since a lot of his power came from his power over her, he may or may not start to deteriorate.

Last edited by soberdriver1 (04-30-2013 08:51:42 PM)

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#12 | Back to Top05-02-2013 11:41:30 PM

Arreat
Ohtori Paramouri
From: Grans Pulse
Registered: 10-08-2009
Posts: 94

Re: Forgetfullness

I don't feel they gave enough light to say if they completely forgot. I always hoped Wakaba wouldn't forget but...

Seems many got a mellow ending. Anthy's obviously being the biggest change.


Are they wearing their duelist rings at the end? After the whole Akio duel, not when they're all on top of the tower talking. /needs to go look up screens

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#13 | Back to Top05-03-2013 10:01:58 AM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Forgetfullness

Arreat wrote:

Seems many got a mellow ending. Anthy's obviously being the biggest change.

*nods*

Are they wearing their duelist rings at the end? After the whole Akio duel, not when they're all on top of the tower talking. /needs to go look up screens

It's confirmed that Nanami has been ring less since the Duel called Revolution is unfolding.  I'm pretty sure no one is wearing the ring post revolution.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#14 | Back to Top05-03-2013 02:54:31 PM

Arreat
Ohtori Paramouri
From: Grans Pulse
Registered: 10-08-2009
Posts: 94

Re: Forgetfullness

That seems correct. Went back to look at episode 39 and couldn't see any on Nanami, Touga, or Juri. Safe to assume none of them kept it probably.

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#15 | Back to Top05-04-2013 05:06:16 PM

soberdriver1
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 04-13-2013
Posts: 12

Re: Forgetfullness

Considering Utena became very much an afterthought, I can see Anthy becoming even more of an afterthought to the duellists since they only know her as the Rose Bride and/or a rival to a loved one's affections.

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