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GUYS GUYS I JUST UPLOADED THE 1997 UTENA MUSICAL IN HIGH DEFINITION straight from the Japanese Blu-rays! i am now very tired goodnight

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#1 | Back to Top12-30-2006 12:12:16 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Time and Ohtori

Time is something that is definitely quite messed up at Ohtori - particularly in pertaining to people's ages. Time also seems to be the main culprit in the warping of people's ability to remember the truth of long past events.

I would propose that
- Ohtori somehow affects how well people can remember things; my example for this would be Utena's inability to recall how many times she has dueled Touga in all
- Miki's fooling around with the stopwatch indicates that maybe he realizes there is something wonky about the timeflow at Ohtori, but he isn't really sure what
- children at Ohtori do age, but only to a certain point - once they hit adulthood, they get stunted; my support for this would be that Akio and Mikage haven't aged, but the members of the Student Council are shown as having aged prior to the series - Juri in particular supports this, since she is shown as a younger girl on campus, and Shiori, who went off campus, doesn't seem to have aged at a different rate than Juri has


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My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#2 | Back to Top12-30-2006 12:40:57 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Time and Ohtori

A Day Without Me wrote:

Time is something that is definitely quite messed up at Ohtori - particularly in pertaining to people's ages. Time also seems to be the main culprit in the warping of people's ability to remember the truth of long past events.

I would propose that
- Ohtori somehow affects how well people can remember things; my example for this would be Utena's inability to recall how many times she has dueled Touga in all
- Miki's fooling around with the stopwatch indicates that maybe he realizes there is something wonky about the timeflow at Ohtori, but he isn't really sure what
- children at Ohtori do age, but only to a certain point - once they hit adulthood, they get stunted; my support for this would be that Akio and Mikage haven't aged, but the members of the Student Council are shown as having aged prior to the series - Juri in particular supports this, since she is shown as a younger girl on campus, and Shiori, who went off campus, doesn't seem to have aged at a different rate than Juri has

Ah! I love this aspect of the series. emot-smile Personally, I've always thought it has something to do with the perception of eternity most of the duellists strive to attain -- they usually want to preserve some precious memory, or keep some perfect moment static. I've mentioned this in other threads, actually, but it's a very encompassing theme of the show. emot-wink Nanami and Saionji are prime examples in the basic sense; they want to stay in their childhoods where things were better (not perfect, perhaps, but certainly far <i>simpler</i>). Miki also wants to be back in the "garden" with his sister. I think this is why time is so warped; quite a few of the characters are trying to turn back time, and in so doing so are dilating their present. If that makes any sense. (It probably doesn't help that I've been watching a show called <i>The Insider's Guide To Happiness</i> as of late, and currently the funny Buddhist monks are trying to explain to the guy from Wanganui that we just work backwards to the future. And it makes sense, in a warped way. I love predestination and there being "plans" for everything...)

And Mikage...well. I etc-love Nemuro and his shadow-self. Mikage doesn't age, I think, because he stopped changing at the time of the fire -- and if you don't change, you don't age. This seems to be a big part of the show, really, because many of the characters are trapped in an age-bracket because they refuse to move on to the next (Akio being perhaps one of the biggest man-children of all). The others do, however, because they are not, as yet, completely held by their own memories. Nemuro seems to have generated his own static field in which he can not age, and although it couldn't be done without Akio, I think Nemuro had to WANT to do it in order for it to happen. And this is how Akio creates his little pawns. (Or porns. He probably creates his own porn, too. ...although that's really neither here nor there. emot-tongue) The thing is, though, when Nemuro graduated -- did he leave the school as a teenager, or did he revert back to his true age? We really have no way of telling, although I once tried to write a fanfic in that vein. It kind of collapsed in upon itself, like a dying star or something, but that's what you get for writing about physicists. emot-mad

As for Miki, I always figured the stopwatch to be a metaphor for the fact time is mutated at Ohtori. I mean, there aren't even any real seasons, are there? This could be because the time frame of the show is rather narrow, but it's glaringly obvious when one notes the change of seasons in Nemuro's backstory (although the snow and the following spring are a metaphor in and of themselves for Nemuro's development from the dry man to the dedicated "philanthropist"). I think the stopwatch is the series' way of indicating that Miki isn't quite as oblivious as he wishes he was, although of all the duellists it is only Nanami and Saionji who, by the end, really seem to acknowledge the fact that the school is really messing with their heads and the natural timelines of their lives.


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#3 | Back to Top12-30-2006 12:49:15 PM

Frau Eva
Voodoo Queen
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 803

Re: Time and Ohtori

What I want to know is how the students haven't noticed that Anthy never ages and they all have up to a certain point. I mean, she'd have to stay around the same grade level for each generation of duellists. Students would probably remember seeing the dark-skinned girl around even if they didn't know her(I mean, look at the demographics of Ohtori. She sticks out like a sore thumb).  Someone would have to notice that she's been there the entire time they've been at the school.

But I guess I should just chalk it up to Ohtori memory messing with people's heads. emot-confused


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#4 | Back to Top12-30-2006 01:15:53 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Time and Ohtori

Frau Eva wrote:

What I want to know is how the students haven't noticed that Anthy never ages and they all have up to a certain point. I mean, she'd have to stay around the same grade level for each generation of duellists. Students would probably remember seeing the dark-skinned girl around even if they didn't know her(I mean, look at the demographics of Ohtori. She sticks out like a sore thumb).  Someone would have to notice that she's been there the entire time they've been at the school.

But I guess I should just chalk it up to Ohtori memory messing with people's heads. emot-confused

I'd say so. I mean, surely someone would also have noticed that that creepy guy who freaks out the faculty hasn't aged in the last twenty years, either. Not to mention the Chairman's daughter's fiancee looks a lot like that guy who was hitting on the Chairman's grandmother way back when...yeah, that's Akio. Making his way down the family tree with his own big stick. school-devil

...er, if that made no sense to anyone, don't worry. My brain's in the drier, I'll go get it when it's done frying. emot-gonk


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#5 | Back to Top12-30-2006 08:12:50 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: Time and Ohtori

Frau Eva wrote:

Students would probably remember...

On any campus other than Ohtori, maybe. Mikage gets written out of everyone's memory easily enough.

Student 1: Himemiya Anthy... She's that weird girl with the glasses, right?
Student 2: Yeah, she was in our class last semester, but where is she now?
Student 1: No she's a year younger than we are.
Stuident 2: Oh? But I thought... Hey you're right, what was I thinking?


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#6 | Back to Top12-30-2006 10:01:33 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Time and Ohtori

Ragnarok wrote:

Student 1: Himemiya Anthy... She's that weird girl with the glasses, right?
Student 2: Yeah, she was in our class last semester, but where is she now?
Student 1: No she's a year younger than we are.
Stuident 2: Oh? But I thought... Hey you're right, what was I thinking?

Man, I was gonna cite the forgetting of Utena and Mikage, and the brief forgetting of Saionji and Ruka, as evidence that Anthy doesn't need to age to not raise suspicions, but that quote is amazing and awesome and proves it so well.

Although, I do think Anthy did age physically for a little while at Ohtori at least - after all, we see Anthy as a small girl wearing the Rose Bride's dress at one point (this is the shot used on Empty Movement's homepage!). But I doubt she has aged in a long, long while.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#7 | Back to Top12-30-2006 11:39:33 PM

Hinotori
The Notable Death Mantis
From: Soviet Ohiostan
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 1333

Re: Time and Ohtori

I don't there really IS a blanket time for everyone in SKU. I always kind of assumed that Mikage unaged himself because he was so hung up on the idea of remaining in a past moment that he wasn't really aware of time.  The rest of the characters (save Akio and Anthy) are aware of time and expect it to happen therefor age normally.

I think Ohtori completely detaches people from the fabric of reality entirely, and the closes thing to an Ohtori reality is what Akio wants to do with them. Hence Mikage hallucinating Mamiya as Dios instead of his normal appearance, or the duel arena. The students, faculty, etc live in a world most comfortable for them.


Hinotori made this post, and then went back and changed it later. Such is life.


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#8 | Back to Top12-31-2006 08:33:50 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
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Re: Time and Ohtori

Akio said to Tokiko that while the students were inside this school, they wouldn't turn into adults. When you graduate is when you mature, I suppose.

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#9 | Back to Top12-31-2006 02:29:26 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Time and Ohtori

I believe that Anthy is always the age most useful to her, at the moment. In her current function 14 is a good compromise between being a sexualized figure yet giving an impression of (false) innocence and purity. If Akio decided that it'd be better to seek a potential Prince-candidate in a university, instead, she'd become 19 in a flash. But the unstable years of the lives of the middle-teenagers are propably the best for his purposes, so Anthy remains 14.
She seems quite a bit older when her hair is down, though, oddly enough - to most people that'd be the opposite. In any case she seems more powerful and experienced, that way.

I think Ohtori completely detaches people from the fabric of reality entirely, and the closes thing to an Ohtori reality is what Akio wants to do with them. Hence Mikage hallucinating Mamiya as Dios instead of his normal appearance, or the duel arena. The students, faculty, etc live in a world most comfortable for them.

I'm not entirely sure about this. I think that to the faculty there is nothing strange or fantastic about Ohtori. It's just a job for them and they don't bother with such minor oddities as the Duelling Forest or rediculous power the Student Council holds - it's not their business. They've grown up and don't believe in magic, or even hope for it, any more. To Akio they are below his attention - he barely recognises their existance unless they bother those central to his attention.
To the students, especially those who are chosen by the Ends of the World the Academy is a magical place that can grasp them into its hold and not let go until its master chooses to throw them aside. Nemuro was needed in a different role, so the false memory was devised to keep him bound to the place for as long as needed. Most of the place's power is, however, just an illusion - Akio doesn't have all that much real power left. He can't just put Nemuro in stasis - he must convince him to become entangled so badly to his precious memory that he can't let go.
The place isn't exactly the most comfortable place for everyone, either - most of the main characters are suffering from internal turmoil only worsened by their surroundings.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#10 | Back to Top12-31-2006 03:45:32 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Time and Ohtori

Lightice wrote:

To the students, especially those who are chosen by the Ends of the World, the Academy is a magical place that can grasp them into its hold and not let go until its master chooses to throw them aside.

In a way, this is how a lot of kids (at least in some Western societies) view high school: a magical place. Just think of how many people think high school is the end all to be all - its a bit frightening once you consider it.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#11 | Back to Top08-23-2008 11:48:50 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Time and Ohtori

I had a theory about Miki's stopwatch but I forgot to post it till now. I hope it makes some sense.

Anyway, the themes of adulthood/childhood are juxtaposed in SKU, so I'm using this as the context for my intepretation. Miki's stopwatch shows that there's a difference in the perception of time for adults and children. I think that throughout most of the series, the time Miki records is irrelevant/random and it has no meaning. There are two notable moments that gave me the idea for this theory.

The first significant moment is during the last student council meeting where Miki doesn't click the stopwatch but merely observes the flow of time as the final duel begins for Utena. My theory is that this is when he becomes aware of time itself -  as Utena is bringing the revolution and realising her own self-identity (leaving behind the childhood fantasies).

The next moment is after the final duel in the scene with Kozue, Tsuwabuki and Miki. This time, Tsuwabuki has the stopwatch and Kozue comments that the timing was great. We don't know what they were timing, and it probably doesn't matter but the big difference is that they WERE timing something, whilst up to this point, Miki had been randomly clicking the stopwatch.

Anyway, as far as I've noticed, children and adults perceive time quite differently. For children, time can exist but it doesn't matter much and they can be totally oblivious about it. As for adults, they are (should be emot-tongue) acutely aware of time and they have to do something about it (plan it, use it, whatever).

I don't claim Miki and the others have become adults like that, just that there is a difference between being a child and an adult, and they have begun to realise this themselves. Time is just another way to bring out this difference.


The Saionji Support Squad:
Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

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#12 | Back to Top08-23-2008 10:28:56 PM

allegoriest
Delicious Duellist
From: Cloudcuckooland
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2506
Website

Re: Time and Ohtori

I still think its worth noting that Touga's birthday episode (10) aired on his birthday. I mean, they could have easily made it another season in show, and really, I would have never thought anything about it. It kinda hints at a real time thing, since his birthday obviously happens, and on his birthday no less. But time is still OBVIOUSLY messed up, but you'd think someone would noticed said birthdays being inconsistent or something. (Of course, it could be argued Touga knows everything before hand, but we don't know if they had any say on what day the episodes aired. Did they already all have birthdays in the manga? I don't remember... I think it was released a bit prior to the show and written in production, and I'm not sure if they gave him one in a profile...)

I want to argue that characters are whatever age they are mentally. Of course, there are too many exceptions, like Anthy, Miki and Kozue. (That might make Juri 8, wouldn't it...)

But obviously, Tokiko is proof SOMETHING weird is happening there. But the whole Nemuro Hall thing was really weird. No one could remember crap, Miki went from knowing ALL about the place, to knowing exactly how it burnt down years before. I'd rather argue though, that Mikage is a ghost, and he and Nemuro Hall were strong memories that were relived, and manifested as actual happenings. Tokiko could have come back and seen him that way instead. (I can easily believe Akio's full of crap. THOUGH I also think he LIKES telling people way too much.)

Maybe  they just have something on someone's minds. Whenever the normal school people talk, they always have really inconsistent stories. (Like no one knows what happened to Utena... But yeah, I guess all three could be true.) No one at Ohtori seems to know what the hell they're talking about.

Ohtori = mind trap


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Only a lemming must be concerned with the ends of the world.

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#13 | Back to Top08-24-2008 04:43:51 AM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Time and Ohtori

Personally, if I may make a sweeping metaphor, I rather think of Ohtori as a singularity. You know, a back hole. (I remember Anthy being compared to one somewhat jokingly in another thread.) It's still a part of our universe, but within its borders, physical laws no longer work as we expect. Time and space contract, and at the very center, time stops altogether. You can observe it from the outside, but you can never tell what's really going on within. And once you fall in, you've got a snowball's chance in hell of getting out again. (As for how Nanami leaves to go to India... uh... Hawking Radiation? emot-tongue)

Here's an interesting footnote relating to singularities...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_wall

In string theory, a domain wall is a theoretical 2-dimensional singularity. ... In M-theory, the existence of Horava-Witten domain walls, "ends of the world" that carry a E8 gauge theory, is important for various relations between superstring theory and M-theory.

emot-biggrin

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