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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#51 | Back to Top01-10-2013 12:02:23 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Is Kanae, who tried being nice to Anthy for Akio but got endless passive aggressive antagonizing in return, deserving of the hell Anthy put her through?  Is Wakaba, who tries tolerating Anthy for Utena, deserving of the intentional trauma inflicted?  Is Tsuwabuki, just a child, deserving of the prompt-to-murder stunt Anthy-Mamiya prompts Mikage to put him through?

Oh, I meant the original duelists rather than the black rose duelists.

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#52 | Back to Top01-10-2013 01:00:47 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Lurv wrote:

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Is Kanae, who tried being nice to Anthy for Akio but got endless passive aggressive antagonizing in return, deserving of the hell Anthy put her through?  Is Wakaba, who tries tolerating Anthy for Utena, deserving of the intentional trauma inflicted?  Is Tsuwabuki, just a child, deserving of the prompt-to-murder stunt Anthy-Mamiya prompts Mikage to put him through?

Oh, I meant the original duelists rather than the black rose duelists.

Lurv, I totally understand your angle: the SC are not nice teenagers at all (not even Miki, who also has his share of selfish, power mad moment); but, let's remember that they are teenagers, whereas 1000 yr old deities Anthy and Akio are not; the playing field is sloping by over 80 degrees there.

If people wanna bash Akio for being villainous, then it would be unfair of them to also de-villain-ize Anthy -shown to be just as powerful and as self-centered as her male counterpart all along - at the same time.  Both siblings - or they could be the masculine and feminine sides of the same entity - are three dimensional villains with layers to their characters, and their guilt levels are not that far off from the other.   To bash Akio for his evil while excusing Anthy for the same thing reads to me as anti-male sentiments at work.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#53 | Back to Top01-10-2013 01:49:49 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Well, I don't think it's right of Anthy to use them either, but she does it by letting them use (and in some cases abuse) her. "Oh, I'm sorry I used your selfishness against you to help my own goals"? I guess you could say the same for Akio though.

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#54 | Back to Top01-10-2013 02:50:53 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Lurv wrote:

Well, I don't think it's right of Anthy to use them either, but she does it by letting them use (and in some cases abuse) her. "Oh, I'm sorry I used your selfishness against you to help my own goals"? I guess you could say the same for Akio though.

Exactly.  It's just that Anthy presents herself as the objectified female role (submissive, girl-sex-doll) while Akio presents the same for the male role (aggressive, boy-sex-toy).  Remember Dios getting worn out into sickness by the masses: that was the "male-role" version of "being abused" too.    Remember Anthy as "Mamiya": no one was abusing A-M a bit cause she was embodying a young male then (and was "he" vicious or what).  I bet should Akio decide to do what Anthy did and impersonate someone's special "girl" (think an Akio-Kanae), he would be leading men on to physically beat him up too, if doing so makes the men easy to manipulate.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#55 | Back to Top01-10-2013 03:19:20 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Who knows what he'll get up to now that Anthy is gone? Fanfic might have som different takes on that, of course. school-devil

I got to say though, I do see both of them as human in a way, despite them having some nonhuman traits.

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#56 | Back to Top01-10-2013 03:53:18 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Lurv wrote:

Who knows what he'll get up to now that Anthy is gone? Fanfic might have som different takes on that, of course. school-devil

Fic?  Fic! emot-rofl

Time: some time post-revolution:

Akio-Kanae (vapid): Even knowing of his affair with Mama, I still want to marry Akio-san, Papa.

Mr. Ohtori (enraged): Foolish wrench (Slaps A-K, who crumbles gracefully.)! You . . . you’d be the death of me, you ungrateful . . .(the rage triggered a stroke in the sickly old man) . . . arrggggg . . .!  (He dies leaving everything under Mrs. Ohtori aka Akio's sugar-mommy's possession.)

Akio-Kanae: school-devil


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#57 | Back to Top01-11-2013 01:24:12 AM

Itsuke
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Registered: 12-08-2008
Posts: 341

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

In the murky world of SKU, nobody is blameless. People manipulate each other and get burned or exploited at the same time, it's a vicious cycle where no one is solely a victim or perpetrator (aside from Akio).

True, the school council duelists are teenagers and therefore way younger than our two ancient deities here, but they aren't innocent lambs either. Judging from their behaviors and sayings throughout the show, it's clear that they aren't clueless children who know nothing about the ways of the world. They may be teenagers in the show, but they sure behave like many spiteful, irresponsible, and calculating adults I see all around me.

Wakaba tolerates Anthy's presence due to Utena, and that's all she's done, nothing more. If Utena never befriended Anthy, and Wakaba happens to witness Anthy being bullied by Nanami's minions or slapped by Saionji, how likely do you think Wakaba will step in to help? Most likely she will pretend to see nothing, or in the latter situation she probably will come up with an excuse to justify Saionji's violent behavior (thus being in denial about Saionji's true nature as an abuser). So in truth, Wakaba is just an indifferent bystander. We heard a lot about school bullying cases in the states, the situation is the same, if not worse, in Japan. Ask a few victims about their experiences, and you do be surprised to hear how many of their classmates chose to ignore the fact even when the bullying occurred right in front of them. Is bystander indifference a crime? Now that's a loaded question, but an indifferent bystander sure as hell is not totally guiltless.

Akio is never offered true love? I don't think so. Let's put aside the question of whether or not Anthy has ever loved Akio in his current manifestation (because to explore that topic requires a separate thread of its own), but are we forgetting Kanae here? Yeah, she is no Utena, but who can say her love for Akio is anything less than Utena's love for Anthy? Love can't be measured, right? If Akio wants to settle down and allow Kanae to know the real him beyond his charming facade, who is to say Kanae won't accept him for all his flaws? Maybe she too will offer him her unconditional love like what Utena has done for Anthy. However, in order to have any meaningful relationship, Akio must want to establish one in the first place. Alas, he is too obsessed with unlocking the power of Dios to desire anything else. It's difficult to feel sympathetic for Akio when he is not interested in finding true love. The concept of it probably is something Akio dismisses and sneers at.

The feud between Anthy and Kanae resembles many stormy relationship between married women and their mothers-in-law. I agree it is probably Anthy who antagonized Kanae first. Kanae certainly isn't at fault for provoking Anthy. To be at the receiving end of Anthy's silent hostility surely cannot be fun. Even though we know Kanae resents Anthy deep down, she continues to be nice to Anthy for the sake of politeness and Akio, that's no small feat. But while Kanae herself is unaware about it, we all know that she and Anthy are rivals. Therefore, can anyone seriously expect Anthy to welcome and accept Kanae with open arms, when the two of them are sharing one man? So of course there are tensions between the two. Sure, Anthy knows Akio is only using Kanae and doesn't really love her, but that doesn't mean Anthy isn't jealous of Kanae who gets to play the role of Akio's fiancée.

There's no way Akio is oblivious to what is going on between his sister and fiancée. He probably welcomes it since it is that much easier to persuade Anthy to feed Kanae that poisoned apple. And that is the only time we see Anthy committing a physical act that causes Kanae harm. Hell yeah it is bad, but I don't think Anthy is the one who comes up with the idea. It's ought to be Akio's plan so that Kanae will remain under his influence. So he still is the one with the biggest blame for drugging Kanae.

Aside from Akio, you know who is more at fault for what happened to Kanae? It's her own mother, Mrs. Ohtori. For a woman of her age and social status, there's no way she is just an innocent housewife. She may be totally taken by Akio's superficial charm and foot massage skill, but deep down she must know that such a seducer can't be good husband material for her daughter. Another wealthy woman in her position will probably suspect Akio to be a fortune hunter. We don't know if she has ever warned Kanae (or at least drops hints) about Akio. But ultimately we know Mrs. Ohtori has failed as a mother. Instead of protecting Kanae, she has left her teenage daughter in the hands of a really bad man, and the outcome isn't pretty.

Akio is regarded as the ultimate villain of the series not because he is male. It's because Akio is the unscrupulously perpetrator who actively schemes and manipulates others for his own gain. To top it all off, he never shows any remorse for all the damages and sufferings that he has caused. Akio is the one obsessed with regaining the power of Dios whatever the cost, not Anthy. How can she be when she is the one who locked it away? Anthy is guilty of being his accomplice. She is driven to help Akio probably because she feels responsible for her brother's transformation into the End of the World. Without Akio's determination to restore himself to his former glory, Anthy would never become the rose bride and be entangled with all the shit that entailed. I don't believe for a second that Anthy relishes her role as the rose bride, but Akio seems to really enjoy being the End of the World. This marks the difference in terms of who is the bigger bad guy here.

Anthy's other saving grace is that we see her sufferings and we see her pains. Some may say this makes her completely self-absorbed and blind to the plight of others, I don't agree, but even if it is true, why's there this expectation that she must be a messiah figure? Since when that's in her job description as a immortal? Isn't that kind of Dios' territory anyway? And look how well that has turned out for him. If there's one big lesson Anthy has learned through the years as an immortal being, then it is we humans are an ungrateful bunch. We demand and wile (the mob outside the cabin), but as soon as we're told we can't have what we want then we lash out at the first scapegoat that we can find (the million swords of hatred). So as the rose bride, why should she give a damn about the countless duelists she met, who consider her nothing more than a tool to achieve their selfish goal (and along the way I am positive that many have exploited her for their own enjoyment), and just as preoccupied about their petty personal griefs (petty in comparison to what she has to endure with being impaled over and over again by the million swords of hatred).

I am going to stop here since it's 3:21am, and I need to get up early for work tomorrow. I apologize for any grammatical errors.

Last edited by Itsuke (01-11-2013 01:25:10 AM)

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#58 | Back to Top01-11-2013 02:39:20 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Oh noes, now I have to make an effortpost. It's not going to be that effort-y, I'm too tired, but I figured I'd mention a couple things...

Itsuke wrote:

Aside from Akio, you know who is more at fault for what happened to Kanae? It's her own mother, Mrs. Ohtori. For a woman of her age and social status, there's no way she is just an innocent housewife. She may be totally taken by Akio's superficial charm and foot massage skill, but deep down she must know that such a seducer can't be good husband material for her daughter. Another wealthy woman in her position will probably suspect Akio to be a fortune hunter. We don't know if she has ever warned Kanae (or at least drops hints) about Akio. But ultimately we know Mrs. Ohtori has failed as a mother. Instead of protecting Kanae, she has left her teenage daughter in the hands of a really bad man, and the outcome isn't pretty.

Just wanted to point out here that there's no way Mrs. Ohtori would have warned Kanae that Akio isn't a nice guy. She's invested in keeping Kanae victimized by Akio-- though she probably doesn't know how bad the victimization is-- because if he stops victimizing Kanae, she loses her access to Akio's talented fingers (and the rest). So no, she doesn't protect Kanae, but I think her failing is worse than just that. She eagerly participates in physical and emotional betrayal of her own daughter, and would probably make an effort to keep Kanae in Akio's grasp in order for it to continue.

Eh, the main point there (from both of us) is that Anthy has nothing on hurting Kanae compared to Mrs. Ohtori. It's just that Kanae is aware of Anthy's malice on some level, and that makes Anthy seem more to blame in the viewer's eyes.

Itsuke wrote:

Akio is regarded as the ultimate villain of the series not because he is male. It's because Akio is the unscrupulously perpetrator who actively schemes and manipulates others for his own gain. To top it all off, he never shows any remorse for all the damages and sufferings that he has caused. Akio is the one obsessed with regaining the power of Dios whatever the cost, not Anthy. How can she be when she is the one who locked it away? Anthy is guilty of being his accomplice. She is driven to help Akio probably because she feels responsible for her brother's transformation into the End of the World. Without Akio's determination to restore himself to his former glory, Anthy would never become the rose bride and be entangled with all the shit that entailed. I don't believe for a second that Anthy relishes her role as the rose bride, but Akio seems to really enjoy being the End of the World. This marks the difference in terms of who is the bigger bad guy here.

Gio and I always had the theory that Akio's really not that driven to get the power of Dios back. He's pretty happy where he is; he can fuck whoever he wants, play with whichever toys he wants, build the tallest towers and imaginary castles in the air if he wants. Why would he ever want to get that power back? He's living the dream already.

It sorta bugs him that Anthy's hurting, though. Once in a while. Or rather, once or maybe twice in the entire series does he seem to give a shit about what Anthy's going through. We think he tells Anthy he's going to get the power of Dios back so that she doesn't up and leave his ass. I also think that on some level she's aware that it's a facade, that he's not really doing anything at all, and that he never intends to really help her.

Remember when Utena's Soul Sword breaks? He doesn't seem all that upset. More like, "Oh well, I guess we have to start all over again." Then he sincerely expects her to just go back to what they were doing before, recreating the Seitokai and such. He put less effort into it than I put into my post emot-keke

Again, Anthy knows this on some level. It's why she hurts him passive-aggressively, lets him be threatened by Utena's presence. She knows he's not going to really try.

But is she really to blame for clinging to the one person that cares enough to even pretend to love her?

Then again, how can you not blame her for choosing to believe in something she knew was false?

Personally, I go with both. emot-biggrin

PS: Itsuke, your grammar is just fine emot-smile


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#59 | Back to Top01-11-2013 04:32:52 AM

Itsuke
Pathtracer
Registered: 12-08-2008
Posts: 341

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Yasha,

I agree that Akio's pretty content with his current situation, but I think he is serious about recovering the power of Dios which was once his. Although you are right that his effort lacks urgency, but remember he is an immortal who has plenty of time on his hand, so it's not surprising to see him pursuing his goal at a leisurely pace.


If unfortunately Akio succeeded in recovering the power of Dios, I too agree he won't use it to help Anthy. The first thing he will do is to ditch her. Anthy is probably aware of it too. It leads back to your questions:

But is she really to blame for clinging to the one person that cares enough to even pretend to love her?
Then again, how can you not blame her for choosing to believe in something she knew was false?

It's a paradox, isn't it? Just like why so many women in real life choose to remain in a corrosive relationship with their abusive partners. There's no easy, clear-cut answer.
On the other hand, while we can speculate forever about Anthy's reason(s) for staying with Akio. Akio's reason for keeping Anthy close seems pretty obvious though: she is the only link that connects him back to the power of Dios. If he ever wants to gain it all back again, then it's absolutely in his interest to never release her from his control.

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#60 | Back to Top01-11-2013 09:05:15 AM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Itsuka wrote: Akio is never offered true love? I don't think so. Let's put aside the question of whether or not Anthy has ever loved Akio in his current manifestation (because to explore that topic requires a separate thread of its own), but are we forgetting Kanae here?  Yeah, she is no Utena, but who can say her love for Akio is anything less than Utena's love for Anthy? Love can't be measured, right? If Akio wants to settle down and allow Kanae to know the real him beyond his charming facade, who is to say Kanae won't accept him for all his flaws?

Hmm . . . let's see:

Kanae/Akio vs Utena/Anthy

K: Akio never takes the initiative to reveal his true self to her, and Kanae (along with Utena) just leave it at that and enjoy him for his worldly stud qualities
U: Anthy never takes the initiative to reveal her true self to her, and Utena keeps powering her way past her many masks and shell EP after EP, until they "finally meet" near the end of EP 39

K: endlessly complaining about Akio not spending enough time with her starting since the Black  Rose EP
U: keeps on wanting Anthy to expand social circle, and shows concern for her lack of progress at least up to Rose Seal EP

K: forces Anthy to acknowledge her as "sister", knowing it will tense things up for Akio
U: do all she could to smooth over things for Anthy socially, even being nice to Nanami when she and Miki comes along for the tutoring

K: keeps mentioning her family putting money in for Akio ("And it's been rumored that he was adopted into my family just for this equipment. ") to even a stranger like Utena; she wants the world to know Akio is in debt to the Ohtoris.  This is the most off putting kind of credit taking a woman can do in front of her man.
U: never verbally takes credit for any "gains" (socially or else) she might see Anthy achieve; like, you don't see her going "If it wasn't for me this poor thing would be naked in a melting dress in public."  She does things for Anthy; she does not rub it in how much she helps teh other girl.

K: tries using Mrs. Ohtori to pressure Akio to spend time with her, while knowingly intruding on his "family time" with his sister and sister's friend
U: emot-aaa   she wants Anthy to see Akio more once she knows they are siblings (before the incest reveal, of course)

I honestly can't see Akio getting offered the same emotional outreach as Anthy had so fortunately received.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (01-11-2013 09:55:55 AM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#61 | Back to Top01-11-2013 11:39:18 AM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Shutin: I forgot, but you make it sound like Anthy just cares about Dios/Utena because of the Power of Dios, which never was my impression.

About Utena/Anthy vs Akio/Kanae, I think it's a bit hard to compare them. Utena doesn't actually have to befriend Anthy. She could just ignore her like Touga did. Kanae though... well, she could refuse to marry Akio I suppose, but would her parents be very happy with that? (At least her mother) So since it's her duty to marry him, she's trying to make things more pleasant for herself.

And Akio/Utena is of course different too, since they aren't peers. While Utena and Anthy aren't technically peers, they might as well be, so it makes sense that she bonds with Anthy more.

So could someone redeem Akio with their love? I dunno.

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#62 | Back to Top01-11-2013 11:48:51 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Lurv wrote:

Shutin: I forgot, but you make it sound like Anthy just cares about Dios/Utena because of the Power of Dios, which never was my impression.

<Skip>

So could someone redeem Akio with their love? I dunno.

Lurv, I suppose my words don't convey well in my upthread posts alone, so I'll quote my other post at
http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?p … 77#p248377

I wrote:
   

Lurv wrote:

    TRUE, that is kind of significant.

    In either case, though, Utena's not a replacement. At least that's how I see it.

I don't think Anthy see Utena as a replacement either, but rather a superior love target to what Dios was to her.

I believe that often times, when a person believes that they can love only one specific someone and no one else, it's only because they have yet to encounter another person who possess qualities that make them "even better" by the lover's (whether self-conscious or not) calculating mind.

Let's look at the "calculations" through Anthy's eyes:

Dios   = Noble + Brave + Self-sacrificing + Male + Familiarity
Utena = Noble + Brave + Self-sacrificing - Female (since Anthy "was" straight) + Being Understanding
            + Boundlessly Forgiving(only discovered after Duel Revolution)

It's not hard to see why Anthy jumped ship in the end.

In my view, Anthy believes that Akio regaining Power of Dios will not just give him the power back alone, but also Dios' past nobility and strength, thus remaking evil Akio back to the good godling he once was - the one Anthy had loved all along, before she finds a superior love target to even Dios in Utena.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (01-11-2013 11:49:41 AM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#63 | Back to Top01-11-2013 12:17:51 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

I see what you mean, but I really think that Anthy genuinely wants love. It sounds cheesy, but a lot of people do. She doesn't really think anyone CAN love her, however, so she stays with Akio and his illusions because that's better than nothing. Even before she's pierced by the thousand swords of hate, I don't think she was a happy person, because to become as obsessed with her brother as she did, she would have to be a very lonely girl. Becoming the rose bride didn't exactly improve her situation (until Utena came along), but at least it meant her brother needed her, so he would be less likely to leave her. Utena proves that at least one person in the world is able to love her, which is what helps Anthy break free.

Akio on the other hand, lives more comfortably now that he's no longer Dios. I do think a part of him wants to regain the Power of Dios, but at the same time he can't bring himself to leave his comfortable coffin. Anthy can't bring herself to leave hers, even though it's hurting her. There is some difference there.

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#64 | Back to Top01-11-2013 12:53:29 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Posts: 1312
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Lurv wrote:

I see what you mean, but I really think that Anthy genuinely wants love.
<Skip>

Akio on the other hand, lives more comfortably now that he's no longer Dios. I do think a part of him wants to regain the Power of Dios, but at the same time he can't bring himself to leave his comfortable coffin. Anthy can't bring herself to leave hers, even though it's hurting her. There is some difference there.

I'm a firm believer that the majority of people - even utter villains wants to receive love: it is the "giving love unconditionally" part that distinguishes a truly good person from the less-good/bad ones.

Akio . . . I don't see him as living comfortably at all.  For a man to have to get adopted into his wife's family (Ohtori) means that he has to lose his own family name (Himemiya), and is traditionally considered degrading for males (like REALLY pussy-whipped, akin to symbolically castrated) within Asian culture.  That and teh Ohtoris lord this fact over him (see EP 30).  Also, Akio has been conditioned to drop to his knee in front of women in intimate moments (from Utena to Mrs. Ohtori), instead of having the women knee/bend over for him, hints at his becoming a sex-toy for women instead of the other way around.  The only reason Akio cannot get beat up by the women like Anthy is being beaten by Saionji is because society condemns men who get beat up as being undesirable unmanly crap (while abused women are considered heartstring-pulling damsels), and Akio needs to be considered desirable to have his hold on the humans around him.  Note how the adults within the Acadamy admiring him are all teachers/faculty of inferior job titles to his.  Imagine Akio at a grand social function with the Ohtoris outside the Academy - high society people would be sniggering/gossiping behind his back all night long just for being an "Ohtori".


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#65 | Back to Top01-11-2013 02:30:12 PM

moo92
Miki Molester
From: Iowa
Registered: 11-29-2012
Posts: 30

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

What an interesting discussion! Thought I should throw in my two cents here. school-eng101
Heres how I see the whole situation. The question to ask to best answer this question is well to ask another question, why does Anthy do what she does?

Anthy sealed Dios away for both selfish and not so selfish reasons; she did to save his life, because she wanted him for herself, and because she hates the people who use Dios. I think the swords of hate were ment for Dios but Anthy took them instead expecting Dios now Akio to save her from it like he has done for many other girls. Of course this would mean that the Prince would have to take the swords himself as Akio says something a long these lines in episode 39 "The swords are attracted to a prince but they are also attracted to a witch". Akio liked the idea of someone else taking the pain for him but Akio also loves power and the only way to get it back is by becoming a Prince and opening the door but that would also mean taking the swords. So the duels are held to find a prince's sword to break open the door for power. Now Anthy is the one with all the power while Akio's is deminised so to keep Anthy from leaving him ever he abusers her in pretty much every possible way. In return Anthy fights back like many people under abuse do, passive-aggressively. She reminds Akio that she is the one with all the power and not him while he abuses her to try and show he is the one in power when he really isn't. Anthy also believes she deserves the abuse she is given under Akio so she does not use her power to stop him. An abusive cycle is formed and until Utena came around niether of them are willing to stop the cycle for many many years. I also think Anthy stays because she still hopes Akio is the Prince she loved, she has convinced herself that she is a Witch and therefore has no feelings except hate, and she does not feel that she could leave her coffin so to speak even as it is hurting her.

Now I don't think Anthy likes people. After all it is the hate of people that give her great pain in the first place. So to them they become ways for her to vent in a way by toying with them. The Student Council members are teens who seek power for different reasons and because they are young and foolish they are easy targets for someone as old as Anthy. To Anthy they are just the next group of duelist, one might hold the Prince's sword but to her they are all fake princes and nothing more. As for Kanae to Anthy she is just another girl Akio is using so why not fuck with her too? She can't trust any of these people and she does not like people in the first place, at this point in her very long life she has endured pain and suffering so why not? Its not the right thing to do but Anthy is convinced she is a evil Witch anyway so to her its fitting.

The major difference between Anthy and Akio to me is that Anthy is the only one who ends up changing. She breaks the cycle and in doing so breaks the whole system and Akio's hold over the school/city. Its all because Utena gave her something she has not experienced in a long time, love and trust. Utena makes Anthy feel again after years of Anthy convincing herself that she is a Witch and does not feel. Hence why I don't think Anthy trying to kill herself was a set up to gain Utena's favor. I think she was overwhelmed and confused because she knew what was going to happen to Utena and she felt guilty about it. That must be quite a wake up call for Anthy after years of not feeling.

So how much is Anthy to blame? I think its pretty split evenly there, I think she did whatever Akio told her but I think she did things on her own as well. She isn't totally innocent but at the same time she is also a victim of many years of abuse. And besides I'm confused why people want to her be punished? I mean isn't getting stabbed with swords for billions of years and getting abused in every way (physical, emotional, sexual) by her brother and by god knows how many people enough? Her life has been nothing but punishment really and her lashing out how she does is bad but at the same time its understandable why she does so. In the end Utena changed her for the better and she moved on. Leaving her past behind and going towards a better future. Akio choses not to let go, choses not to grow up and as how Anthy puts it "Playing Prince in your coffin".

Ah I'm sorry if I got off topic, I tend to ramble. Almost rambled about Akio too. Hope what I typed here makes sense. emot-tongue

Last edited by moo92 (01-11-2013 02:30:50 PM)


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#66 | Back to Top01-11-2013 05:55:58 PM

Itsuke
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Registered: 12-08-2008
Posts: 341

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

For a man to have to get adopted into his wife's family (Ohtori) means that he has to lose his own family name (Himemiya), and is traditionally considered degrading for males (like REALLY pussy-whipped, akin to symbolically castrated) within Asian culture.  That and teh Ohtoris lord this fact over him (see EP 30) ...Imagine Akio at a grand social function with the Ohtoris outside the Academy - high society people would be sniggering/gossiping behind his back all night long just for being an "Ohtori".

No, sons-in-law adoption is very common in Japan. Know as mukoyoshi, the custom has its root way back in Japan's past. If a samurai or merchant family had no male heir, they would adopt a daughter's husband as successor to carry on the family name (and inherit the wealth too of course~). The practice continues today in Japan. Check out some of the major Japanese firms like Suzuki, Toyota, Suntory, Canon, Matsui Securities, etc, you will notice they are run by adopted sons who married the daughters of former chairmen. They've all adopted their wives' surnames in the process. So no, there's shame for Akio in being adopted by Kanae's family.


moo92 wrote:

So how much is Anthy to blame?......She isn't totally innocent but at the same time she is also a victim of many years of abuse. And besides I'm confused why people want to her be punished? I mean isn't getting stabbed with swords for billions of years and getting abused in every way (physical, emotional, sexual) by her brother and by god knows how many people enough? Her life has been nothing but punishment really and her lashing out how she does is bad but at the same time its understandable why she does so.

I couldn't have said it better than you.

Last edited by Itsuke (01-12-2013 06:42:52 PM)

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#67 | Back to Top01-11-2013 07:20:26 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

itsuka wrote: The practice continues today in Japan. Check out some of the major Japanese firms like Suzuki, Toyota, Suntory, Canon, Matsui Securities, etc, you will notice they are run by adopted sons who married the daughters of former chairmen. They've all adopted their wives' surnames in the process. So no, there's shame for Akio in being adopted by Kanae's family.

Yes there is; just because it is common does not mean there is no shame.  The husband is expected to defer to the wife's family in many things thus is seen as unmanly.  You can check out the some Japanese live dramas dealing with the topic in case you want to familiarize yourself with it.  I personally recommend  拝啓、父上様 (2007, hope you can see the characters), where the adopted husband character angsts endlessly over his situation.

I mean isn't getting stabbed with swords for billions of years and getting abused in every way (physical, emotional, sexual) by her brother and by god knows how many people enough? Her life has been nothing but punishment really and her lashing out how she does is bad but at the same time its understandable why she does so.

Then I suppose a person who obsesses over self-mutilation, who will resort to mutilating others both on her own impulse and on another's prompting, who also has money but refuse to pay damages after the horrid acts, is understandable and thus "non-villain" too.  I don't know about you, but I myself certainly don't wish to meet such a person in real life.

Regardless of how much a person's willful stupidity made them suffer, when they will not right the wrongs they'd knowingly commit against others - especially while they are perfectly capable of doing so (like Anthy was at the end of EP 39) - that person is maybe a layered person, but certainly not a "non-villainous" one.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (01-11-2013 07:39:34 PM)


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#68 | Back to Top01-12-2013 12:43:40 AM

Itsuke
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Registered: 12-08-2008
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Nobody said Anthy is totally innocent and bears no responsibility for what she has done. Only she is a more sympathetic character. If that's not your view, I totally respect that.

   

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Yes there is; just because it is common does not mean there is no shame.  The husband is expected to defer to the wife's family in many things thus is seen as unmanly.  You can check out the some Japanese live dramas dealing with the topic in case you want to familiarize yourself with it.  I personally recommend  拝啓、父上様 (2007, hope you can see the characters), where the adopted husband character angsts endlessly over his situation.

Then I guess Japanese high society must really look down on those adopted sons who are running some of their country's (I mean the world's) most successful corporations.

and thanks for your recommendation, didn't realize you're a fellow J-dramas fan too~ have been since the 80s, tend to be very selective in what I watch nowadays though, but next time I have a question about Japanese culture, I will come to you~ emot-keke

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#69 | Back to Top01-12-2013 09:32:58 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Only she is a more sympathetic character.

Okay.  I've since stated the reasons behind my belief that the Himemiyas are equally guilty, and you you stated your reasons behind yours.  We can agree to disagree on this point and be done with it.

but next time I have a question about Japanese culture, I will come to you~ emot-keke

Sure. I'm Asian, has been to Japan many times, and has watched "J-dorama" all my life, along with HK drama and Korean Drama.  My taste includes stories with old families/clan dynamics involved.  Come ask me for recs any time you feel adventurous emot-wink

Then I guess Japanese high society must really look down on those adopted sons who are running some of their country's (I mean the world's) most successful corporations.

When these "adopted sons" were young and at the engagement/early marriage stage, definitely frowned upon (and with father in laws/brother in laws breathing down their necks at every corporate meeting, no doubt).  When they get older and really prove themselves actually useful in running those corporations - not to mention being fertile enough to impregnate their wives into having sons (not daughters), then they get some slack from high society.  However, these "successful adopted son" will STILL have to defer to their wife's family in many things, not to mention that their children cannot bear their last names, but their wives' - their pride as oat sowers for their own original families are gone-ed (a biggie to the self identity of most Asian men, and most western gents too from what I've seen).

Just look at it this way - what's there to be proud of in literally being seen as a male gold digger, especially one who's desperate enough to marry into a family that he'd give up his own family name (thus his own duty to his own parental family)?  It would take him years working hard for the wife's family before he could be truly accepted as one of their own.  Worse, his children will not be of his own "bloodline", it would be the wife's bloodline.  That man had surrendered his traditional duty to his own family bloodline (own family name) to sow heirs for another family bloodline . . . and for what?  Whether it's love or not, most others will see it as the man abandoning his pride and duty as a Himemiya (or whatever else family name he got) and be "bride-ed" to some rich male-heir-less clan for cold hard cash.   

Think Al Bundy the TV famous American slob, who repeatedly tells his children that they are Bundys, but Peggy the wife is not a "real" Bundy. What would even the trashy likes of him think if his children are to be named Wankas (Peggy's family name?) instead of Bundys?


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#70 | Back to Top01-12-2013 08:55:29 PM

Itsuke
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

When these "adopted sons" were young and at the engagement/early marriage stage, definitely frowned upon...

Japan is a deeply patriarchal society, but it is also an intensely capitalistic one. Adult adoption is prevalent among wealthy business families, some household heads were themselves adopted sons-in-law. Look back further into history, the samurai class had done it, the later kazoku families had done it, even the imperial family had done it (surplus princes becoming adoptees after they renounced their imperial status), so where's this high society that will look down upon someone in Akio's position who is going to inherit wealth and social prestige?

Furthermore, a successful Japanese corporation won't just choose anybody to be its heir, correct? Suitable marriage candidates are often selected from top-performing managers who already have proven themselves on many levels. How can it not be a tremendous honor for an employee (a non-blood related outsider) to be deemed worthy and capable as heir to the very company he has toiled for? To be chosen as the next leader of an entire corporation is no simple job promotion. How can this not boost his ego and reaffirms his masculinity? Sure, someone in Akio's position must change his surname, but he also obtained rights to the property of his adopting family. He may be cut off from his biological parents in the legal sense, but who says he can't still look after his original family afterward?

There's bound to be pressure and personality clashes when one is marrying into a new family, but that's just part of the apprenticeship the adopted son must go through. If he feels emasculated by the whole process, then he never should have agreed to the arranged marriage in the first place, such person deserves to be a perpetual kinsman of the family but never ascend to become its head. 


From one of your earlier posts:

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Also, Akio has been conditioned to drop to his knee in front of women in intimate moments (from Utena to Mrs. Ohtori), instead of having the women knee/bend over for him, hints at his becoming a sex-toy for women instead of the other way around.

Yeah, Akio loves to drop to his knee to give women amazing foot massages, doesn't his? The bastard must be very confident about his foot massage skills, he won't miss every opportunity to showcase it; but don't interpret it literally as his downfall into being their bitch. A man doesn't need to maintain physical dominant posture to denote his alpha male status. Akio is being the seducer here, luring women to give in to his temptation. That's a dominant role to assume in the game of love OR you can view it as Akio the predator luring his victims into his dangerous web of lies and manipulation. Either way, he is in total control when he is giving women foot massages~


gorgeousshutin wrote:

Sure. I'm Asian, has been to Japan many times, and has watched "J-dorama" all my life, along with HK drama and Korean Drama.  My taste includes stories with old families/clan dynamics involved.  Come ask me for recs any time you feel adventurous emot-wink

Oh, look at us, two Asians talking about Japanese culture here, nice isn't it? emot-rolleyes If ever my HK, mainlad Chinese, and Taiwanese sources can no longer provide good J-drama materials, I will come knocking~

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#71 | Back to Top01-12-2013 09:54:24 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Oh, look at us, two Asians talking about Japanese culture here, nice isn't it? emot-rolleyes If ever my HK, mainlad Chinese, and Taiwanese sources can no longer provide good J-drama materials, I will come knocking~

Oh, so you're an Asian familiar with so many Asian sources . . . my goodness, have you got me tricked or what with your previous posts! 

Then, you probably already know the Asian social stigma concerning male gold diggers, even those who're not forsaking their family names.  Think of the media backslash against male TVB actor Joel Chan for his dating a Tychoon Stanley Ho's Wife # 3's (legally just a mistress) daughter, and how he frequently got called a "eunuch" just for him being photographed opening the car door for the rich girl. There is also the repeated media jokes about him trying to (嫁) the girl like a sweet bride, instead of (娶) her like a real man should. emot-frown

Have you watched the J-drama I mentioned upthread yet?  The adopted-into-family hubby  surely have some feels about his situation there.

The 2012 J drama (替身女优·真希) has an ep devoted to an "adopted son" unhappy into his old age from stress, and takes it out on abusively harassment of a hostess.

Yeah, Akio loves to drop to his knee to give women amazing foot massages, doesn't his? <SKIP>Either way, he is in total control when he is giving women foot massages~

I'm sure many japanese pink salon girls feel empowered by pleasuring people on their knees too . . . I wonder how much respect they'd get from Japanese society for their being "in total control"?

Sure, someone in Akio's position must change his surname, but he also obtained rights to the property of his adopting family. He may be cut off from his biological parents in the legal sense, but who says he can't still look after his original family afterward?

He obtained rights to the property of his adopting family by throwing away his right to sire little Himemiyas in the future - he is in effect the "bride" who sires the other family's kids, not "his family's" kids.  Now of course he can look after his family, but what has that got to do with his male pride?  He's setting himself up to be (嫁)-ed like a true (Rose?) Bride for crying out loud!  And others will obviously see him as a gold digger, or else he would have the "male backbone" to insist on keeping his own family name while making Kanae his Himemiya Kanae.  Really, read the dialogues directed to him from both Kanae and Mrs. Ohtori: are they even respectful of him except for use as boy toy?

Kanae (flaunts how her family benefits him, in front of other women):  And it's been rumored that he was adopted into my family just for this equipment.

skip

Akio:  Some breakfast?
Kanae:  No thanks.
Kanae (wielding mother in law card, in front of other women):  Besides, my mother's here.

skip

mother (pull rank and power over him):  Your position at this school is based on your getting married to my daughter.
mother:  And don't forget that engagements can be canceled at any time.

No wonder Akio resorts to apple-feeding Kanae in the end.

I could say more on this "adoption" topic, but any of your male Asian friends will be able to tell you what it means for a man to ditch his family name and in effect be (嫁) into some woman's family emot-wink


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#72 | Back to Top01-13-2013 12:07:14 AM

Yasha
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Hey, it sounds really cranky in here. Can you guys make sure that doesn't kill the thread please? Thanks, I know that's not the goal here for anyone.


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#73 | Back to Top01-13-2013 02:02:07 AM

Itsuke
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

陳山聰 is despised because he dumped his fiancée in pursue of 何超雲. Being a blatant fortune hunter is different than being an adopted heir of a corporation. Did you mistakenly think a synopsis of a TV show that he has a part in to be actual tabloid news about his current love life? People have been calling him 賤男 lately, but not 太監 or 公公.

While Japan is part of Asia, what's true in other Asian cultures doesn't mean it's the same in Japan. Just like I won't use examples found to Vietnamese culture to support my argument regarding Japanese culture. Instead of relying on TV dramas to inform yourself, how about reading a few academic articles? JSTOR has tons, just type in the necessary keywords and you'd be amazed.

If Akio is concerned with fathering children that MUST bear his surname and established a dynasty, then your argument may be valid. However, I think we all know what's his true objective in the show.

I'm sure many japanese pink salon girls feel empowered by pleasuring people on their knees too . . . I wonder how much respect they'd get from Japanese society for their being "in total control"?

I am sorry, didn't realize you wouldn't be able to notice I was trying to be funny earlier. I thought we all know Akio giving you a foot massage means Akio is sexing you. Serves me right, I shouldn't make assumption.


Well, Yasha has asked us to stop, I will respect that since we have gone off topic for too long and what not. You are entitled to your opinions, I am entitled to my views. Each is no more or less valid then the other since we aren't the show's creators.

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#74 | Back to Top01-14-2013 01:39:38 PM

waifu
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Registered: 01-12-2013
Posts: 14

Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

Didn't read the entire thread, but... did someone just imply that a footrubbing a step mother and being forced into blowing johns for money is equally degrading? lol what

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#75 | Back to Top01-14-2013 02:07:21 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: How Much Is Anthy To Blame?

waifu wrote:

Didn't read the entire thread, but... did someone just imply that a footrubbing a step mother and being forced into blowing johns for money is equally degrading? lol what

Hi waifu:

日本倒插门女婿要效忠妻族 (translated as: Japan “Reverse Way/Event” where Son in law have to serve/be loyal to Wife’s Clan)
http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3338

More on Asian attitudes to men trying to court women richer than themselves:

陳山聰 getting label by eunuch name 小聰子for courting heiress emot-frown
[忽然1周]陳山聰未出「宮」
http://veryy8.blogspot.ca/2012/12/1_569 … PNQEK5MAvs

And I wonder which fiancee  TVB's 黎諾懿 dumped to deserve the following kinda headline:
[FACE]黎諾懿死繑億萬女友 emot-gonk
http://veryy8.blogspot.ca/2013/01/face_737.html

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (01-19-2013 08:56:24 AM)


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