You are not logged in.

Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top10-18-2006 05:59:47 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Here's something I've been having trouble figuring out.  Kanae (Akio's fiancée, though somehow I doubt the marriage is going to happen anytime soon) graces the beginning of the Black Rose Saga with her unwelcome, whiny presence.  In almost all ways she is a typical Black Rose duelist: resentful, envious, a visitor to Mikage's, a bearer of the black rose and matching accessory, a duelist, and an amnesiac after the fact.  But she doesn't pull a sword out of anyone.  Mikage doesn't either, of course, but he at least is an exception in other ways.  What's Kanae's excuse for her lack of a soulsword?  ("All the Seitokai members are taken" doesn't count emot-wink)

And a couple related questions.  If Kanae did draw a sword, who would she draw it from -- Akio or Anthy?  How about Mikage -- Mamiya or Tokiko?  My guesses: Akio and Mamiya.

Offline

 

#2 | Back to Top10-18-2006 06:07:53 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

I always thought it was because Kanae was Mikage's first try at using a black rose duelist, and he hadn't thought of the idea of pulling swords from the student council before. After Kanae's failure, I think it was Mamiya that brought up the idea. :3

For Mikage, I think it would definitely be Mamiya since Tokiko isn't at the campus anymore. (Except her one visit) And he always said he wanted to kill Anthy and make Mamiya the Rose Bride. emot-aaa Another thing I'm curious about.  For Kane.. Akio, since Anthy is Utena's Rose bride, but the idea of anyone pulling a sword out of Akio seems strange. And impossible.. Didn't Anthy take his sword? But that aside, all the Black Rose duelists seem to have some kind of attraction to who they take their swords from, and Kanae just resents Anthy.

Slightly off-topic, but I'm still trying to figure out why Kanae suddenly turned immobile late in the series and Akio was feeding her.. emot-confused

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (10-18-2006 06:09:50 PM)


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

Offline

 

#3 | Back to Top10-18-2006 06:20:11 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

For some reason, I've always liked Kanae. It's probably the scarf, or the way she talks. (Not in English, of course. Goodness, no. But in Japanese she uses formal language.) Not to mention that she's really, really good at screaming. She got one line in the movie, and did an amazing job at making it as dramatic as possible. I was a bit disappointed that we didn't get to see her much of her in the series. Since she's the daughter of the chairman, and Akio's fiancée, she must have a very interesting history.

The question that weighs the back of my mind is, "Did she pull the sword out of Akio, and we just didn't see it?" If she did, Akio probably would have been expecting it, so there would be no need for a scene to show his reaction. The light-purple dueling outfit that she wears is Akio's color, so that seems to be related to him. The sword, however, is rather unique, and does not seem to be Akio's. Her fighting style is also different from Akio's.

Last edited by Razara (10-18-2006 06:31:41 PM)

Offline

 

#4 | Back to Top10-18-2006 06:34:49 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

I might be mistaken, but I was always under the impression that Dios became Akio when Anthy extracted his soul sword (Which contained amongst other things, contained his selflessness), and placed it inside herself resulting in her Rose Bride persona.  I might have missed some important detail somewhere but thats more or less how I viewed it.


http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/DooDah.jpg

Offline

 

#5 | Back to Top10-18-2006 06:39:15 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Tamago wrote:

I might be mistaken, but I was always under the impression that Dios became Akio when Anthy extracted his soul sword (Which contained amongst other things, contained his selflessness), and placed it inside herself resulting in her Rose Bride persona.  I might have missed some important detail somewhere but thats more or less how I viewed it.

I thought the same thing. And during Saionji's last duel the sword disappeared and they started using Utena's sword.. Hm, I may need to make a topic about that. emot-confused emot-aaa


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

Offline

 

#6 | Back to Top10-18-2006 07:18:36 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I thought the same thing. And during Saionji's last duel the sword disappeared and they started using Utena's sword.. Hm, I may need to make a topic about that. emot-confused emot-aaa

yes a topic concerning how the whole Dios to Akio and Anthy's role in that as well as how this whole World Revolution thing got started would certainly draw the deep thinkers out of the woodwork. school-freud school-sherlock


http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/DooDah.jpg

Offline

 

#7 | Back to Top10-18-2006 10:24:09 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I always thought it was because Kanae was Mikage's first try at using a black rose duelist, and he hadn't thought of the idea of pulling swords from the student council before. After Kanae's failure, I think it was Mamiya that brought up the idea. :3

For Kane.. Akio, since Anthy is Utena's Rose bride, but the idea of anyone pulling a sword out of Akio seems strange. And impossible..

I would say Mikage having not thought of it yet is the show's reason, and her having no one logical to pull it from is the creators' reason. It would have had to be Akio or Anthy (probably Akio), and well...yeah. That would be a wee bit hard to explain.

It's similar to why Saionji doesn't have anyone pulling his sword out in his last duel. The only logical person would have been Touga, but Touga's doing it would have taken some of the oomph out of his last duel, when Saionji takes that role.

Perhaps more than that it's a device to show us how unimportant she is. She's engaged to Akio and yet the show treats her like she doesn't matter at all beyond a quick and dirty device to advance the plot.

One gets the impression that's what Akio thinks of her, too.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

Offline

 

#8 | Back to Top10-19-2006 06:37:01 AM

azuresquirrel
Touga Topper
From: Right behind you!
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Slightly off-topic, but I'm still trying to figure out why Kanae suddenly turned immobile late in the series and Akio was feeding her.. emot-confused

Such a confusing scene, isn't it? I remember bringing this up for discussion at roselinedcoffin because it always confused the crap out of me. There are still no definite answers, although the popular theory was that she wasn't useful to Akio anymore and probably becoming a bit of a nuisance, so Anthy was helping him poison her (poisoned apple anyone?)

As to why she doesn't get to draw a soul sword . . . well, as a BRD Kanae's really just a plot point. Her story doesn't go anywhere or get any resolution (unless you count the scene in which Kanae's mom has got it goin' on school-devil) I feel bad for her too.


Me on gender identity: "I have more gender issues than an anime character."

Offline

 

#9 | Back to Top10-19-2006 08:31:06 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

azuresquirrel wrote:

(poisoned apple anyone?)

Or we could go with the forbidden fruit of knowledge deal, in which case she probably found out about him and Anthy. I suspect the reaction would have looked quite the same. emot-frown The poisoned apple one is more direct, but Akio's the one stomping around comparing himself to the school-devil, so...


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

Offline

 

#10 | Back to Top10-19-2006 05:44:09 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Ahh, I like those ideas about Kanae.. It reminds me that her father was getting sick, wasn't he? And with how much talk of poison there is in the series..

Although, it is strange how Ohtori is apparently Akio's world yet he needs to marry to be the chairman of the school. Hmm. A cover-up, maybe?


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

Offline

 

#11 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:10:55 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Although, it is strange how Ohtori is apparently Akio's world yet he needs to marry to be the chairman of the school. Hmm. A cover-up, maybe?

Or he's married a different Ohtori woman FOR GENERATIONS.

Maybe Akio and Anthy were parasitic, no one place is theirs so much as wherever they go their coffin follows?


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

Offline

 

#12 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:13:47 PM

Mysteria
New Student
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

I agree with Giovanna on why Kanae doesn't get to pull a soul sword out of anyone.

As for Mikage, I've always wondered whether, if his sword was a soul sword, it would be one he pulled from Mamiya, or one Mamiya pulled from Mikage. I think the latter is a distinct possibility, because each Black Rose duelist has some sort of hold over whomever they draw their power from, and since Mikage's entire reality is based around Mamiya, it makes sense that he could have been dueling with his own soul sword rather than one taken from Mamiya. But since Mamiya is really Anthy, it also makes sense that he could have drawn a sword from her.

I think the question of where Mikage got his sword was left open to interpretation on purpose, though, because Ikuhara is just like that.

Offline

 

#13 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:16:35 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Wait a minute.. if Mamiya is Anthy, and Utena pulled a sword from Anthy for her duel with Mikage,  how could Mikage have Mamiya there and use his sword? Since Mamiya is Anthy his sword would be the sword of Dios too..

emot-confusedemot-confusedemot-confusedemot-confusedemot-confused

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (10-19-2006 07:16:53 PM)


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/Tushen/cupcake_mini2.gif

Offline

 

#14 | Back to Top10-19-2006 07:44:48 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Well...overall it's not totally out there to assume 'Mamiya' did have a sword for Mikage. It's not like Anthy couldn't just illusion him one, and it seems unlikely Mikage wouldn't want a sword drawn from Mamiya.

Then again, Mamiya is not the one he should be pulling a sword from, that should be Tokiko.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

Offline

 

#15 | Back to Top10-19-2006 08:55:45 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

I assumed that the Black Rose Duelists had to pull a sword from the heart of another. Mikage was a regular Duelist, not a black rose Duelist, and so he didn't need a soul-sword. His rose color was black, true, but that was a silver seal he was wearing. I assumed he had a mundane, physical sword stashed away somewhere. emot-wink


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

Offline

 

#16 | Back to Top10-19-2006 09:38:45 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

I completely agree with such. The moment he plunged the black rose into his chest, he had prepared to fight Utena, without a soul sword or not, since it wouldn't have helped in the first place. And only in a "true" state can one pull a soul sword. Once directed by Mikage whom teaches them how.He has no one to pull a sword from.. .save Utena, since Anthy is Mamiya and he doesn't recognize Tokiko.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

Offline

 

#17 | Back to Top10-19-2006 10:11:47 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

If I recall correctly, when she's defeated, Kanae's sword evaporates in the standard Black Rose Duelist soul-sword way. Presumably, it must have come from somewhere, because normal swords... er... don't evaporate when you're beaten in a duel. However, from Mikage and Mamiya's dialogue in episode 14, it would seem they hadn't yet thought of the idea of their Duelists using swords from stronger people.

It's doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that Anthy-Mamiya could have created Kanae a "generic" supernatural sword, similarly to how Akio produces a sword (of humanity's hatred?) during the final duel (though probably far less awesome). If it was intended to be the sword of anyone in particular, they would have mentioned it.

And yes, I always figured that as a "normal" (stretching the term) Duelist, Mikage just picked up a handy physical sword. At that stage in the game, soul swords are only being used to give one the power of a stronger fighter, anyway - it's almost a sign of weakness that the Black Rose Duelists need them.

Offline

 

#18 | Back to Top08-29-2007 05:35:21 AM

Aika_san21
New Student
From: Lakeland, FL
Registered: 12-05-2006
Posts: 8

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Oh gawd this brings up so much debateable nonesense concerning Kanae, once again reminding me why I love Utena. XD

Okay I'm gonna try and lay out what I think:

The Answer I always had for why Kanae was different was because she was first (kinda how only Saionji has a second duel other than Touga in the first arc, who was last) I think it was just to set up the new plot. I always had the assumption that she was a trial run for Mikage. They used her and she failed, they blamed her failure on her lack of skill so cooked up the idea of taking talent from the Seitokai members and giving them to others to use 'better'. She was a guinea pig (as SleepDebtFairy said).

This would explain why Mikage didn't use anyone elses sword in his duel, one because he was a 'normal duelist' (as Ivy-chan said) and for the fact that using anothers soul sword didnt 'define' the Black Rose duelists so much as it was just a tactic used by them.

BTW: sorry for resurecting this thread, I'm a bitch like that emot-tongueschool-devil

Aika

Offline

 

#19 | Back to Top08-29-2007 11:02:17 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Perhaps the fact that Mikage and Kanae use ordinary swords while opening and concluding the arc is a plot device that helps both introduce and dismiss the total crackery of the entire thing. I mean, it's not like the whole series isn't crazy to begin with, but...yeah. I have no idea. I just figure Kanae was the starting point because that's the way Akio wanted to play it. Mikage probably thought he was doing it because manipulating Kanae's emotions towards the person he wanted to eliminate (i.e. Anthy) would be easy because Kanae had a (difficult) personal relationship with Anthy in the first place. Familial connection? All the better to manipulate you with, my dear. However, it was likely Akio doing it for his own ends, and when it (predictably) went pear-shaped, he had Anthy!Mamiya nudge Mikage's thought processes towards the duellists and their soul-swords (which is where he always wanted to go, being that he wanted to strengthen and test Utena's own before going gardening with it at the end of the series).

Why did Mikage have an ordinary sword? Perhaps, as a shadow of Nemuro, he had no soul. Poor thing. Actually, a while back I wrote a ficlet (found here) that was my random thought-tangent on where he got the sword from. It's rather odd -- being that my grasp of quantum mechanics is about as tenuous as Mikage's on reality -- but I rather liked the idea that Mikage got his sword from Nemuro. It just doesn't stand up in context (but since when does that matter with fic? school-devil)

Oh, and Kanae's apple? Poison of knowledge. There are some things one just shouldn't know. emot-biggrin


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

Offline

 

#20 | Back to Top08-29-2007 12:52:11 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

satyreyes wrote:

Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Here are the answers. school-eng101

Offline

 

#21 | Back to Top03-06-2013 01:52:09 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

King of all necros emot-dance

According to Wikipedia, Kanae fights with a "Black Rose Sword" (a quote-unquote 'normal' magic sword, probably) while Mikage uses his own soul sword. So it's settled.

Which is interesting, because it makes the Mikage duel a precursor to the Akio arc duels (where the competitors use swords drawn from their own hearts).

Another thing: in the episode where Mamiya proposes the use of soul swords, this exchange occurs:

Souji:  However, they have all been defeated in Duels.
Souji:  They are weak-hearted people.
Mamiya:  There aren't many people who can fully control their hearts.
Mamiya:  I'm sure it's particularly difficult for people of such young age.
Mamiya:  It would be far better to let their spirit swords be received by someone else.
Mamiya:  That way, a stronger Duelist can be born.

Was the SC using soul swords from day one? Was Utena the only duelist who ever used a material weapon in the duels?

Last edited by Atropos (03-06-2013 01:58:58 PM)

Offline

 

#22 | Back to Top03-06-2013 08:15:03 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Atropos wrote:

Was the SC using soul swords from day one? Was Utena the only duelist who ever used a material weapon in the duels?

I had always assumed the swords started materializing after their duels (or during, or whatever), but that is an interesting way to interpret that.

Offline

 

#23 | Back to Top03-06-2013 08:54:52 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Atropos wrote:

Was the SC using soul swords from day one? Was Utena the only duelist who ever used a material weapon in the duels?

If this were true, the SC wouldn't panic over the events of the Black Rose Saga -- at least, not in the same way.  For instance, we wouldn't have the adorable scene where Nanami asks Miki whether it hurt.  school-freud

On the contrary, I think Mamiya is pointing up something that is undeniably true in SKU: dueling is an expression of your heart, whether or not you're literally holding your heart in your hands.  The sword is a symbol of your soul even when it's just a practice saber you bought for $24.99 on eBay.  Duelists in the first arc lose during moments of distraction, bravado, or moral compromise; as Mamiya says, they fail to control their hearts, and so their swords go astray.  Mamiya hypothesizes that duelists would be stronger if they could somehow duel with someone else's heart instead of their own.  I don't think events bear him out -- no one in the show ever defeats a champion duelist while wielding someone else's soul-sword, and no champion duelist ever loses except while doing so -- but it certainly is an interesting guess.  emot-biggrin  I started this thread oh-so-very-long-ago because Kanae was an exception within her own arc.  I guess we're meant to assume she gets her sword off of eBay.

Last edited by satyreyes (03-06-2013 08:57:16 PM)

Offline

 

#24 | Back to Top03-07-2013 03:21:43 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

re: Akio and Kanae.


I'd always thought that his destruction of her came down to two things:

a) Because he could
and
b) He has a deep-seated contempt for people he perceives as weak and useless.

Kanae is infatuated with him- she's what, sixteen, seventeen? the perfect age for debilitating crushes- so she's depressingly easy to manipulate. After having failed her Black Rose duel- even though she was meant to- she proved herself to be weak and also of no further use to either Akio or Anthy.

However, reading discussions on the stigma that Japanese men face after they take their wives' names suggest to me that Akio is resentful as fuck about the power Mrs Ohtori has over him. Being a prick of truly epic proportions, he takes it out on poor Kanae.

Offline

 

#25 | Back to Top03-07-2013 05:02:03 AM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Why does Kanae get special treatment?

Of course, by episode 37 he's abandoned all pretenses of being engaged at all. In the end, all power the Ohtori family has over Akio is illusionary, since he's been there since day one.

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB 1.2.23
© Copyright 2002–2008 PunBB
Forum styled and maintained by Giovanna and Yasha
Return to Empty Movement