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#1 | Back to Top05-28-2012 08:09:42 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

I've always wondered about whether anime Touga really is a victim of rape since early childhood.  I mean, what kind of un-scarred 17 yr old high school boy (straight/bi), would so casually, repeatedly use his own body as a sexual weapon - to try and control not just girls (hello, nameless female outlets), but even men (hello, Mr. Chairman; hello, Kyouichi, my photo session bud)?    I mean, man-sex involves the kinda pain and grittiness that most teen boys with female outlets ain't ready to handle; for Touga to act so ready, so used to it at his age . . .

Movie Touga was explicitly shown to have been raped by the foster father; it seems to me that the same had likely happened for anime Touga as well. 

What'd you guys think?


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#2 | Back to Top05-28-2012 08:59:31 AM

Atropos
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

According to Enokido, yes, this happened.
I wonder, though: does Nanami know about this? Was she also a victim?

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#3 | Back to Top05-28-2012 09:12:30 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Thanks Atropos, for letting me know about the existence of enokido youji:

Googled the name enokido and found article on Anime Touga raped:
http://iwanihana.info/mawaru/2011/10/04 … ido-youji/

Although the TV series touched upon Touga’s younger days, the film goes into more details – the wound of Touga that was never directly depicted.  In his younger days, Touga was a normal kid who enjoyed happy times with his friend Saionji Keiichi and his younger sister Nanami. However, he came to know his unfortunate fate from the time he was ordered by his parents to wear his hair long. His parents sold him to the Kiryuu family. Although he was an adopted son on the surface, the instinctive Touga knew what that meant. And in order to protect his younger sister, he accepted his lot. Being sold. We did not go into depicting what Touga’s parents obtained by going as far as selling their son. We would like you to think of it as a kind of metaphor. And Touga accepted in silence the sexual abuse from his new parents. His personality changed while he made a magnanimous show of enjoying the abuses in order to prevent his personality from splitting. The change took place in a spot so deep in his mind, that even those closest to him did not notice. Saionji and Nanami never noticed out of their innocence. And Touga never told his secret to anyone. It is said that a human being gains whatever he lost in exchange. So what did Touga gain in exchange at that point in time? It was the sense of alienation from being abused every night and seeing his innocent friend and sister during the day. The alienated self. The alienated self.

Damn!  I was right on without even knowing it.  Now I can use this to prove to skeptics what my Seinen Kakumei fic http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3026 has CANON legs!

Thanks again!

P.S.  Now we know for sure why little Touga's "birthday party" only got grown ups there . . .

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-28-2012 10:31:00 AM)


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#4 | Back to Top05-28-2012 09:13:54 AM

Honey Bear
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Touga in the series has always puzzled me. I'd managed to figure out all the other characters (to a degree anyway) but I never really understood Touga or why he behaves as he does.

As a victim of rape he makes more sense though.

Never much liked him before, but poor Touga. emot-frown

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#5 | Back to Top05-28-2012 09:22:32 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

In Utena-verse, it's always the SCARRED characters that are the most driven in doing what they had to do to keep themselves mentally afloat (like Utena and her princely ideal); getting repeatedly raped, according to the writer, is what made Touga stronger than Saionji.

Again, from http://iwanihana.info/mawaru/2011/10/04 … ido-youji/

And it is out of this awareness of alienation that you come to obtain a higher humanity and sexual self-awareness. In the TV series, Saionji always felt that he was one step behind Touga. Although the two are more or less equal in terms of ability, what Saionji lacked was that sense of alienation.

Thus how "poor" Touga leads to "poor" Saionji . . .

Knowing of Enokido's reveal, I can now write Seinen Kakumei's Touga with even more certainty than before.  Yay me!

p.s. According to the article, Touga was ordered to wear his hair long as to be child-prostituted to the Kiryuus.  Then, Saionji with his long, nicely curled waves . . . emot-aaa

And before we talk about Akio's long locks, lets just remember how pretty that mane must've looked from Mrs. Ohtori's POV with him down on one knee kissing her shin during their sessions school-devil

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-28-2012 11:02:11 AM)


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#6 | Back to Top05-28-2012 12:09:51 PM

Honey Bear
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Saionji must have grown out his hair long to be like his friend... while never knowing why Touga had to grow his long in the first place.

That's quite sad. emot-frown

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#7 | Back to Top05-28-2012 12:46:26 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Saionji must have grown out his hair long to be like his friend... while never knowing why Touga had to grow his long in the first place.

If it is indeed as you have guessed, then it's pure tragedy.

I wonder if he finally figured it out by the time Touga took him to Akio's Planetarium for their "photo session" in ep 37?

Must cont. writing now and updating the fic thread (part  4 is out just 2 days ago and I'm already half-way through part 5 . . . I'm a machine!).


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#8 | Back to Top07-13-2012 08:54:49 AM

MikoGalatea
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

p.s. According to the article, Touga was ordered to wear his hair long as to be child-prostituted to the Kiryuus.  Then, Saionji with his long, nicely curled waves . . . emot-aaa

And before we talk about Akio's long locks, lets just remember how pretty that mane must've looked from Mrs. Ohtori's POV with him down on one knee kissing her shin during their sessions school-devil

Well, in Saionji's case, he's supposed to be representative of the old-fashioned Japanese male (I believe both Ikuhara and Saito have stated that in separate interviews) so it's far less unusual for him to have long hair. And Akio's hairstyle is more of a mullet, so it's not as effeminate as Touga's uniformly long locks.

Atropos wrote:

I wonder, though: does Nanami know about this? Was she also a victim?

I'd say no to both of those - and frankly, if she doesn't know anything about it now, then she never will. Assuming that she ever found out that her and Touga are real siblings after all, then he'll have discredited himself to the point where she'd never buy it if he tried telling her that their adoptive father was such an evil piece of work. Actually, I can't even very readily see Touga telling her about it in the first place.

I think I've already said most other things I want to say about this topic in the thread about Enokido's SKU privacy files, so I won't be redundant...

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#9 | Back to Top09-05-2012 03:21:03 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

I know there's some opposition to it being canon for the TV version, since it wasn't in any broadcast episode (though it had been planned to be, and the idea informed the presentation we did get), but what's the opposition? What does this, if included, preclude or irrevocably alter in a negative way, from what we otherwise have?

I can see several layers of tragedy, relevance, and echoes that it adds, but the only thing it precludes, to my understanding, is that Touga wasn't sexually abused until explicitly Akio. It simply pushes the date of his first sexual abuse to a handful of years later and implies his style and presentation are motivated by... something else; maybe he's just a dick.


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#10 | Back to Top09-05-2012 03:53:45 AM

MikoGalatea
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I know there's some opposition to it being canon for the TV version, since it wasn't in any broadcast episode (though it had been planned to be, and the idea informed the presentation we did get), but what's the opposition? What does this, if included, preclude or irrevocably alter in a negative way, from what we otherwise have?

I might have brought this up already in the privacy files thread, but I think some people find the idea of Touga having that kind of traumatic backstory insulting in a similar way to how, say, Nakago's backstory in Fushigi Yuugi frustrated a lot of people; it comes off as a cheap bid for sympathy after all the bastardry the character has done over the course of the series. I guess, also, people like to give SKU a lot of credit as an intelligent series with very complex characters; chalking everything Touga does up to him being a rape victim must feel like too easy an explanation to them.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I can see several layers of tragedy, relevance, and echoes that it adds, but the only thing it precludes, to my understanding, is that Touga wasn't sexually abused until explicitly Akio. It simply pushes the date of his first sexual abuse to a handful of years later and implies his style and presentation are motivated by... something else; maybe he's just a dick.

Interesting that you put it that way, because I virtually never see people labeling the Akio/Touga relationship as sexual abuse - and maybe we should be seeing it a little more in those terms. Granted, it certainly doesn't look anything like what comes to mind when one thinks of sexual abuse - in fact, if not for certain factors I'd just call it consensual and leave it at that - but it's so easy to forget that a) Touga is still a minor, and b) Akio is in a position of power over him in more than one sense. And while Touga may well just be a hedonist, for someone as proud as him to be so seemingly okay with offering his body to Akio in such a way is... suspicious. If nothing else, I'm pretty damn convinced that Akio is not Touga's first time with another male.

The privacy files also make a point of saying that Touga acted like he enjoyed being abused by his parents - and he certainly seems to enjoy having sex with Akio, if the bed scenes and silhouette shot are anything to go by. Repeated behaviours, perhaps?

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#11 | Back to Top09-05-2012 09:21:53 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

MikoGalatea wrote:
The privacy files also make a point of saying that Touga acted like he enjoyed being abused by his parents - and he certainly seems to enjoy having sex with Akio, if the bed scenes and silhouette shot are anything to go by. Repeated behaviours, perhaps?

emot-aaa That makes so much sense!
That being said, even if rape happened, I feel that it'ss just part - not all - of what Touga went through to turn him into the person we see in TV SKU.


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#12 | Back to Top09-05-2012 09:49:37 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

MikoGalatea wrote:
The privacy files also make a point of saying that Touga acted like he enjoyed being abused by his parents - and he certainly seems to enjoy having sex with Akio, if the bed scenes and silhouette shot are anything to go by. Repeated behaviours, perhaps?

emot-aaa That makes so much sense!
That being said, even if rape happened, I feel that it'ss just part - not all - of what Touga went through to turn him into the person we see in TV SKU.

But it would very much be the biggest facet, the defining facet, in attempting to explain his behavior. We can argue that other factors were involved, but everything would always be pointed back at this.

Why can't he develop healthy relationships? Betrayed by the adults in his life and abused by them.
Why does he seemingly have sexual relations as a means of defining his power? Sexually abused as a child and has come to equate sex with power.

We could go on and on with this line of thinking. Almost all, perhaps all, of his behavior can be framed by that singular event. And, in the tradition of anime of largely having a character's motivation almost entirely defined by a singular event (Nakago - FY, Misato - SSE, etc), this becomes the easy shorthand to explain Touga. And because it's the tradition of anime to do this, it would come off as the intended answer.

Touga is simply better as a character without having that trauma to define or shape him.

Last edited by Ashnod (09-05-2012 09:50:49 AM)


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#13 | Back to Top09-05-2012 10:03:03 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Ashnod wrote:

But it would very much be the biggest facet, the defining facet, in attempting to explain his behavior. We can argue that other factors were involved, but everything would always be pointed back at this.

Only by the laziest or most surface-reading commenters. I mean, it is, expressly, true of the movie-version, but when we talk movie Touga it isn't all that's talked about, or even the most, is it? Of course, it helps that movie-Touga is a grand prince, does nails so good it'll make you orgasm, and he's dead and wrapped in plas... a dropcloth.


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#14 | Back to Top09-05-2012 10:18:40 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Ashnod wrote:
But it would very much be the biggest facet, the defining facet, in attempting to explain his behavior. We can argue that other factors were involved, but everything would always be pointed back at this.

Now, I think (I'm not saying it's the only answer out there, of course) more than one singular event, a person's continual childhood upbringing is what defines a person, especially when he's a teenager, the most.

Now, I think the rape will define/explain a lot of the sex-based portions of Touga.  But the backstabbing Saionji parts of him should've come from something other than direct rape - rape or not, that something has to do with the source of his upbringing, namely Mr. and (maybe also) Mrs. Kiryuu.

Even suppose TV Mr. Kiryuu did not rape Touga, he is likely the one whose child-educating (or, lack of child-educating) turns Touga from a cat-caring little boy into the secretly insecure, power-desperate, ass-offering-to-Akio teen he becomes.

For me, TV Touga is the teen he his largely because of Mr. Kiryuu whether there is  rape or no rape.  So the rape is, for me, just more venomous icing on Touga's evil cake (god that sounds corny even to myself) - not that all-encompassingly-defining from my POV.


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#15 | Back to Top09-05-2012 10:23:21 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Ashnod wrote:

But it would very much be the biggest facet, the defining facet, in attempting to explain his behavior. We can argue that other factors were involved, but everything would always be pointed back at this.

Only by the laziest or most surface-reading commenters. I mean, it is, expressly, true of the movie-version, but when we talk movie Touga it isn't all that's talked about, or even the most, is it? Of course, it helps that movie-Touga is a grand prince, does nails so good it'll make you orgasm, and he's dead and wrapped in plas... a dropcloth.

I don't think it would be considered lazy, no. That kind of trauma, and betrayal, isn't the kind of thing that tends to go away. It wouldn't be included in the narrative it was meant to be a trivial part of his personality (and note, in the series, it wasn't there at all).  The only reason to include it in the narrative is because it defines him or explains him in some manner.

Like you said, the Touga in the film is a much different character and thus the effect of that trauma on his behavior is a much more interesting conversation to have. Touga is also barely seen in the film; his appearances almost mystical and ghostlike. And, of course, we find out why later. Even then, how much of what we see of Touga in the film is up for speculation. Is this REALLY Touga we're seeing, or Utena's romanticized version of him? Is this really Touga Shiori is interacting with, or Shiori's romanticized version of him? Did we ever see the true Touga?

If that trauma is applied to Touga in the series, where you have a different behavior to compare it against and a much larger pool of actions and dialogue to analyze, it alters the scope of how he is intended to be viewed.


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#16 | Back to Top09-05-2012 10:25:18 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Ashnod wrote:
But it would very much be the biggest facet, the defining facet, in attempting to explain his behavior. We can argue that other factors were involved, but everything would always be pointed back at this.

Now, I think (I'm not saying it's the only answer out there, of course) more than one singular event, a person's continual childhood upbringing is what defines a person, especially when he's a teenager, the most.

Now, I think the rape will define/explain a lot of the sex-based portions of Touga.  But the backstabbing Saionji parts of him should've come from something other than direct rape - rape or not, that something has to do with the source of his upbringing, namely Mr. and (maybe also) Mrs. Kiryuu.

I disagree. I can very much make an argument for his treatment of Saionji being traceable back to being raped and/or abused by his father figure.


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#17 | Back to Top09-05-2012 10:26:09 AM

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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

All this discussion is really making me wish for an SKU sequel (or at least reboot) where Mr. Kiryuu (rapist or non-rapist) is more prominently featured!


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#18 | Back to Top09-05-2012 10:52:27 AM

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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Double post to Ashnod since I still see you online:

But, suppose there is no rape, how do we explain TV Touga's - who gets male-dominant sex easily from females - literally being a "bottom boy" to Akio just for the sake of getting power?  Why would a seemingly priviledged kid who already enjoys unrivaled prestige on campus feel the need to go that far just to get "power of revolution" that would imply "changing his currently fine-looking situation"?


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#19 | Back to Top09-05-2012 11:20:26 AM

Ashnod
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Double post to Ashnod since I still see you online:

But, suppose there is no rape, how do we explain TV Touga's - who gets male-dominant sex easily from females - literally being a "bottom boy" to Akio just for the sake of getting power?  Why would a seemingly priviledged kid who already enjoys unrivaled prestige on campus feel the need to go that far just to get "power of revolution" that would imply "changing his currently fine-looking situation"?

Part of that is the mystery of Touga's character. Having it unexplained makes the character more intriguing.

However, saying that.

Because the entire series has strong roots in the adolescent ideas in the fear of being obsolete, or the yearning desire to be something more than you are. Forgetting for a moment that Akio may have changed Touga irrevocably during the Utena coffin incident, Touga is someone who looks at his "fine looking-situation" and thinks, this isn't enough...is this all I am?

He's not Akio. He's not content to remain with mere comforts and pleasant company. Touga wants to make his mark on the world. He wants to change it and leave some part of himself upon it, so that people know he existed, he mattered. He wants, to borrow from the series, to revolutionize it. Significantly more than Saionji or Miki and just slightly more than Juri.

He doesn't need a trauma for this. He sees Akio as the doorway to gain this, and he's playing the game as best he can to maximize his chance to obtain what he wants. It may seem like he's the bottom-boy, and he appears to realize this the nearer the conclusion of the duels draws, but in his mind, he's playing intelligently and carefully.

The success or feasibility of this plan is irrelevant. He's an adolescent, and plans you make during that age seem intelligent to you at the time. He wants this badly, and he's willing to make sacrifices (another theme of the anime) of himself to get it.


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#20 | Back to Top09-05-2012 11:50:56 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Ashnod wrote:
He's not Akio. He's not content to remain with mere comforts and pleasant company. Touga wants to make his mark on the world. He wants to change it and leave some part of himself upon it, so that people know he existed, he mattered. He wants, to borrow from the series, to revolutionize it. Significantly more than Saionji or Miki and just slightly more than Juri.

For now, I will put aside Akio's continual discontent with his current situation, which prompted him to (in a way) prostitute himself to Mrs. Ohtori to keep a steady footing in Ohtori - his stage for gainning back Dios' power so he can be all-encompassingly Godlike once again.

But for TV Touga to simply want to "make his mark on the world", isn't staying as the SC Pres., then getting into a top grade university by his stepfather's strings, then some big company CEO position afterwards, then ruling over some too-big-to-fail international business empire the way things logically work in the world? 

The Touga we see in TV SKU is on a privileged path (hinted as richer than most of the rest of the private school goers)  that will for sure lead to his becoming powerfully wealthy in the future - if he work hard and be devious at the right times, then perhaps powerful enough to rebuild landmarks in Japan or beyond, and puppet world leaders with his wealth ala Wall Street Firm owners. 

Is Touga that impatient, that he want the adult-tycoon-influence over the World immediately at age 17?  If so, then he's "unusually desperate", and I still am inclined to think of the "why" behind his refusing to go step by step to get what he wants.  All this, up to sexual submission to a man when he clearly likes girls . . . just because of the impatience of youth?


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#21 | Back to Top09-05-2012 12:20:56 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Honestly, reading about all this makes me curious what Touga and Nanami's biological parents were like, even though it's not as important.

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#22 | Back to Top09-05-2012 12:56:10 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Lurv wrote:
Honestly, reading about all this makes me curious what Touga and Nanami's biological parents were like, even though it's not as important.

TV Touga on parents-related subject:
Touga:  Yes. Nanami and I were both sent to the current Kiryuu residence.

Movie Touga on same subject:
I was sold to the Kiryuu househouse (or something similar to that effect).

In either version, biological parents were heavily implied to have placed Mr. Kiryuu's will/wishes over that of their biological children.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#23 | Back to Top09-05-2012 01:04:39 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

I wonder why they did it, though.

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#24 | Back to Top09-05-2012 01:25:13 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Lurv wrote:
I wonder why they did it, though.

I'm guessing bio parents need wealth/support/networking from the Kiryuu household, and that Touga is secondary to the "worldly goodies" they needed then?


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#25 | Back to Top09-05-2012 01:30:07 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Anime Touga - a victim of rape just like Movie Touga?

Is Mrs. Kiryuu in on this?
I mean, the movie only emphasizes Touga's father. But that could be how it happened in that version of events.

Also, it seems that the implication is that Nanami is the reason Touga is such a bastard. emot-biggrin

Last edited by Atropos (09-05-2012 01:30:38 PM)

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