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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top03-01-2012 04:50:51 PM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Utena vs Dios

Akio Ohtori embodies all the ideals to which the Seitokai aspires. He has Touga's cunning, Saionji's righteousness, Juri's obsession, Nanami's force of will, and Miki's knowledge and perfection. That's why he's able to seduce or subvert them so easily. Utena, on the other hand, has compassion and a willingness to put herself at risk or even sacrifice herself, qualities that he never had, either when he was Dios or when he was Akio. She has kamikaze spirit, in other words; she's a revolutionary who embodies the WWII Japanese ideal. It's kind of fascist when you think about it...

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-01-2012 04:56:18 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top03-01-2012 04:56:31 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Utena vs Dios

Wait wait wait. Dios wasn't self-sacrificing?
He nearly died because of his relentless efforts to save everyone! I doubt it would have been beyond him to die for a cause.
And I wouldn't say Utena has a kamikaze attitude. I don't think the importance was the sacrifice, the importance was the unconditional love she showed for Anthy.

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#3 | Back to Top03-01-2012 05:00:33 PM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: Utena vs Dios

As far as he knew, there were no risks; he was protected by Plot Armor. That's how these things work. Being drained probably came to him as a surprise; also, I support the "Dios screwed Anthy" theory, as some of the imagery surrounding the cabin scene really, really suggests it, so his fall could have come about as a result of another kind of overexertion.

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#4 | Back to Top03-01-2012 06:35:26 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: Utena vs Dios

He's pretty clearly straining himself in reaction to the people's calls for help. And notice Anthy is holding him down, and she locks him up inside. If there was any screwing, Anthy was screwing Dios, not the other way around. Perhaps Akio's seduction of Utena was a cathartic way to replicate how his own sister violated him in his youth?
While Plot Armor may have been present, there's no way Dios could know that. And there was Plot Armor to protect Utena all the way up to the very end.

E: To sound less confrontational.

Last edited by Atropos (03-01-2012 06:57:34 PM)

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#5 | Back to Top03-02-2012 03:12:32 AM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1107

Re: Utena vs Dios

Actually, I think it's supposed to go like this (IMHO):

Dios was the active force, the guardian that keeps the child in the home, where it's 'safe'-the Princess is protected or in distress, the "passive" force while the Prince is the savior, the "active" force, yin and yang... which perhaps worked for a while. Unfortunately, every girl he protected remained passive, protected, if by father, boyfriend, spouse or him. Anthy changed that by reputedly sealing him away-this however, was very different from what the princesses from before, she became, if shortly, an "active" force but it backfired. Spectacularly. How she gained that, I don't know, perhaps through what you suppose about Anthy "deflowering" him, perhaps? (aha, a pun) He becomes a proxy, apart from humanity. Enokido talks in the Privacy about alienation, how people are alienated from the world and how bittersweet it is to discover ones own alienation.

Now, Utena, she tries being this active force the same way Dios did. Throughout the first arc, she projects her desires onto the world, hoping to see them reflected, a child-like thing to do, perhaps but forcing this image of what you want is the next step to gaining active power. "Tell him you want to be a normal girl!" She realizes that this is rather hypocritical and selfish and throughout, she is trying to find a different way by "simply" being Anthy's friend (possibly more than friend, we do not know in the series, though allusions and hints point to a romance or the Greek concept "Agape"). In this way, she becomes startlingly different (in spite of drawing very close to or experiencing that same alienation).

Notice that each time in the Tale of the Rose, the "Prince" does not spend much time with the girl at all-he goes off to battle monsters, as they stand aside. By choosing to stand beside or with Anthy and inspiring her to indeed stand, she becomes what one of the songs refer to: a motive force. She experiences with the other, not FOR the other (Anthy). She becomes a force of freedom without the absolutes of yin-yang. She is, like the search for Grails and other such apocrypha, a living allegory of connectedness in spite of the alienation, or perhaps a different option.

We do not need to be the passive princesses and crowds, nor the active princes and shining people but a motive force, the ones that walk together, even if our ranks are crooked and we are not so shining as that.




tl; dr

Dios = ACTIVE, princess = passive
Utena Tenjou = motive force

Last edited by Anthiena (03-02-2012 03:19:43 AM)


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#6 | Back to Top03-02-2012 11:28:03 AM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: Utena vs Dios

In cybernetic terms, you could term that as a networked, complex adaptive systems model as opposed to a viable system, in which there is a clear division between the "brain" of the firm, its tools, and the environment with which it interacts.

Also, in an idealized control loop, one creates variations in one's output while limiting variations in one's input. Dios' response to every problem (the output of their system) was to ride in on his horse and crush it, while the problems that he solved (the inputs to the system) were moderated by Anthy, someone who is clearly an amplifier of variation. This is why they could not maintain control; his violent, simplistic actions created chaos and dependency, while his sister's failure to screen his calls caused him to exhaust his energy tackling an infinite variety of trivial problems.

At Ohtori, Akio, the attenuator, is the one who selects the duelists, while Anthy the amplifier is the one who creates the environments and does the bulk of the interaction, which explains why the new system's control over its environment seems to be much more stable and complete. This system, however, was forced on individuals whose temperaments do not fit the tools with which they serve these roles, which creates internal stresses despite its effectiveness.

Actually, no. The problem is that Akio learned to amplify variation in his outputs, while Anthy didn't really learn to attenuate her inputs until she became focused on finding Utena. This became a problem because Akio did nothing to attenuate Anthy's inputs; in fact, he worked very hard to expose her to as much variation as possible, which created most of the tension.

Everything that Akio says is a lie, even the things he believes to be fundamental truths. When he says that "Ideals are not enough, what you need is power," what he's implying is that when he was Dios he was powerless, while being Chairman of Ohtori Academy gives him power. This is false; what he lost was power, and what he gained was knowledge, or a wealth of ideal forms.

His sister is the opposite.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-03-2012 01:26:01 PM)

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