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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top02-19-2012 09:04:22 AM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Utena Alignment Charts

Well, here we go...

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb404/seven_tenths/uac.png

Thoughts? Revisions? Post up your own if you'd like.


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#2 | Back to Top02-20-2012 06:20:06 PM

KOness
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 01-14-2012
Posts: 11

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

I think it's really difficult with something as complex as Utena. Personally I'd do a chart like this:

Miki-------Dios--------Utena
Saionji---Chu Chu----Anthy
Akio------Nanami-----Kozue

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#3 | Back to Top02-20-2012 07:57:47 PM

Paradox
Winning Love By Daylight
From: Indianapolis, IN
Registered: 07-13-2007
Posts: 343

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

This is a little tough, since so few of the characters are static.  Saionji starts Chaotic Evil, but drifts toward True Neutral by the end.  Likewise, I'd say that Nanami goes from Neutral Evil to Lawful Neutral.

Utena should probably be Chaotic Good.  She's pretty ambivalent or oblivious to the rules.  She's a transcendent force.  She does what she does because it's what she feels is right, and whether the world loves or hates her for it matters very little.

Akio is technically Lawful Evil.  He manipulates things so that he controls the rules more than outright breaks them.

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#4 | Back to Top02-21-2012 09:56:35 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

Lawful Good:
Dios.  Has been said.

Neutral Good:
Utena.  No fucks were given that day.  But she isn't sporadic enough to be Chaotic.  She has a code, but it isn't necessarily in tune with social hierarchy.

Chaotic Good:
Saionji.  I believe he wants to do good.  He wants to find true friendship and eternity, not necessarily just for himself.  He claims he wanted to help Anthy, but she essentially spat in his face.  Same with Touga.  This sort of behavior drove him to more Chaotic methods like slappin' his bitch up.

Lawful Neutral:
Juri.  She is a judge.  She judges everyone.  Because she's a judgemental ho bag.  But she doesn't judge anyone according to a standard of "good" or "bad" so much as "strong" or "weak" according to social rules.

Neutral:
Miki.  He could go any way.  I agree that he has lawful leanings, but his largest idol is arguably Touga.  He wants to be the prince he thinks he sees in Touga, and he wants to be tough like Juri.  Mostly, however, he just wants to have sex with his sister.  He has too many conflicting sides to pick one.  He has an external fixation with rules, but he tries to reconcile that with his own internal malice.  I can't justify putting him anywhere else until he properly gets over his adolescence.

Chaotic Neutral:
Mikage.  He cares about one thing.  Damn everything else.

Lawful Evil:
Akio.  Has been said.

Neutral Evil:
Anthy.  I don't think anyone has contested this pick yet.

Chaotic Evil:
Touga.  Has been said.

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#5 | Back to Top02-21-2012 09:38:26 PM

Arreat
Ohtori Paramouri
From: Grans Pulse
Registered: 10-08-2009
Posts: 94

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

Too many shift by the end of the series. If you made one comparing for each arc you'd have something different each time maybe.

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#6 | Back to Top02-21-2012 10:19:16 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

Assigning standard morality archetypes to the cast of Utena is a fool's errand...but... emot-tongue

Lawful Good: Series Utena. Yes, despite her flaws, she really is the would-be paladin of this story. She is tempted and falls to that temptation, but she recovers herself and shows her character. The very highest.

Chaotic Good: Movie Anthy. The great mover and shaker of Movie Utena's soul, Anthy does whatever she needs to make Utena her prince. She might not play by the rules, but it's for the best of causes.

Neutral Good: Movie Utena. While still good, her background in the movie has caused her to become cynical and bitter until Anthy frees her from her past.

Lawful Neutral: Juri. I pretty much agree with this. She's not a bad person, but she is very, very proud and unyielding.

Chaotic Neutral: Nanami. Just doesn't give a damn, does whatever the hell she wants to whoever the hell she wants. Still, she's innocent, and not altogether bad.

True Neutral: Series Anthy. Can't believe I'm the first one to see her as this. Until the end of the series, she is neither good nor evil. She is simply a doll - ostensibly of the duelists', but of course actually for Akio. She is beyond moral judgments, internal or external. At the end, she becomes Neutral Good.

Chaotic Evil: Saionji. Sorry Saionji lovers, but nobody fits here better than him. The very fact that he's unpredictable and doesn't actually see himself as evil is the chaotic part.

Lawful Evil: Touga and Akio. Not much needs to be said here I think.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-21-2012 10:24:27 PM)

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#7 | Back to Top02-21-2012 11:11:13 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

Yeah, this doesn't work out very well for Utena, but with the understanding that we're just shooting the shit...

I agree that series Utena has got to be Neutral Good, not Lawful. I think people are gravitating towards Lawful Good because it has implications of "not just good, SUPER good!", but to be Lawful, you need to value structure, stability, and, well, law, to some extent. Utena doesn't - the rules sometimes suit her fine, sometimes are a total pain that she disagrees with, and she pays little thought to them beyond that. Lawful might also get applied to characters who abide by a firm personal code, but Utena doesn't seem to have anything that structured. Instead, she has her ideals- she just goes by what she feels is right, which is NG to a T.

Aelanie wrote:

True Neutral: Series Anthy. Can't believe I'm the first one to see her as this. Until the end of the series, she is neither good nor evil. She is simply a doll - ostensibly of the duelists', but of course actually for Akio. She is beyond moral judgments, internal or external. At the end, she becomes Neutral Good.

It partly depends on how much malice you attribute to her.

Setting aside that essay... one of the few things Anthy actively does that's unrelated to Akio's agenda is introduce weirdness like body-swapping curry and magic cowbells. If she's something of a mastermind, trying to specifically harass Nanami out of spite, then saying she leans towards Neutral Evil sounds reasonable. If she simply enjoys messing with people occasionally and causing chaos in general, then it'd be more reasonable to say she leans towards Chaotic Neutral. Either interpretation sounds plausible.

One also has to remember that Anthy isn't really a doll. She's in complete control of her actions, and to deny her accountability for them seems to me to undercut the message of the ending, which (IMO) is that it's ultimately her choice to stay as she is, and her power and responsibility to free herself. It's her choice to go along with Akio's plans, which specifically involve inflicting emotional pain on people to further his own ends. Sure, she does it because she values herself and her brother, and the maintenance of their dependent relationship, more than anything else, but one could argue that that in itself is quite selfish.

In conclusion, I can see where Neutral Evil is coming from.

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#8 | Back to Top02-22-2012 01:13:39 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

Dallbun wrote:

It partly depends on how much malice you attribute to her.

That, indeed. And I have my own, quite differing view on the matter:

---- Anthy: Innocent Victim or Malicious Co-conspirator?

Anthy was never evil, just resigned to doing what Akio wanted. Ikuhara said once that while it's true that Anthy has "venom", he would never characterize her as having "malice", and I think that's a good way of putting it.

Anthy's number one motivator was guilt. She hated what her brother had become after sealing Dios, but she also pitied him, and felt responsible for it. So she gave up everything except doing what he wanted, as a kind of endless atonement.

Now, does that mean Anthy is not manipulative, deceptive, and even callous at times? Of course not, but in some ways, Anthy is the most innocent person in the series. There's a diffence between antipathy and malice. Does Anthy despise the petty duelists with their self-centered ambitions? Without a doubt. It was true of Utena too, at first.

But there's a difference between that and actively seeking to do others harm. Regardless of her contempt for others, the person she believes deserves harm, far more than any of them, is herself. In her own eyes the enormity of her sin, and the degree to which she deserves punishment, are so much greater than anyone else's.

The duelists are, let's not forget, "children", and I'm sure that's how Anthy sees them. Obnoxious, selfish, loudmouthed children...and yet compared to herself and Akio they are innocent lambs, and I truly believe she pities them for being tangled up in Akio's web.

Never more so than with Utena. As Anthy comes to love Utena, her dislike for what she and Akio are doing, and her desire to save Utena from what's coming, grows agonizingly throughout the entire show. She starts to tell Utena the truth so many times...she begins, in the most feebly downtrodden way, to show resistance to Akio. This culminates in episode 36 and 37, where Anthy tries as hard as she's able to show Utena the abyss that's yawning in front of her.

So yes, I do think Anthy is "innocent", in the sense that she doesn't deserve her hellish fate, and really does not wish harm on anyone other than herself. She does what she does out of apathy and resignation, but she does not enjoy it, and Akio's self-justifying lies to the contrary are just that: lies, like everything that ever comes out of his mouth.

Akio asks Anthy why she tortures him, but she doesn't torment him, he torments himself - by wanting from her the only thing he could never gain: The same love and admiration that she had for Dios.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-22-2012 01:20:38 AM)

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#9 | Back to Top02-22-2012 01:43:37 AM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

Aelanie wrote:

That, indeed. And I have my own, quite differing view on the matter:

Fair enough! Here, though, you're saying that Anthy is non-evil because any hate on her part is outweighed by pity, and because she's driven primarily by "apathy and resignation." I'd say that's a different, and significantly more reasonable, argument than what you stated above - that she's a "doll" who is "beyond moral judgments, internal or external." Which again, to me implies that she's not morally responsible for her actions. But at this point we're just quibbling, of course, when what we clearly should be doing is discussing the alignment of the frog. emot-tongue

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#10 | Back to Top02-22-2012 09:38:54 AM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

Here, though, you're saying that Anthy is non-evil because any hate on her part is outweighed by pity, and because she's driven primarily by "apathy and resignation." I'd say that's a different, and significantly more reasonable, argument than what you stated above - that she's a "doll" who is "beyond moral judgments, internal or external."

That's not two different arguments though, it's just cause and effect. Apathy and resignation is the reason she plays the role of the doll. She's not evil, but she's not good either. She may indeed feel pity for the foolish, ignorant duelists, but that doesn't stop her from doing what her brother wants and striking at their weaknesses. That's what I mean by "beyond moral judgments". You can't judge her actions on any conventional scale of morality, because whatever her own feelings may be, the only moral compass she has is "do what Akio wants".

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#11 | Back to Top02-22-2012 09:50:01 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

Frog is clearly Chaotic Neutral.

HE JUST WANTS LOVE GUYS.

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#12 | Back to Top02-22-2012 10:37:46 AM

Malacoda
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 07-26-2009
Posts: 180

Re: Utena Alignment Charts

I think I'd put the Shadow Play Girls as True Neutral or maybe Chaotic Neutral.

Million Swords might be Chaotic Evil.


But, I wonder, how might Good, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic be twisted and redefined to fit the Utena-verse? Would Lawful equate to following archetypes and Good to having the altruistic generally associated with the Prince?

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