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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-30-2011 04:45:37 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

What is the relationship between Episode 9 and Episodes 38-39?

In 38 and 39, as most of us know, Akio tries to bring the revolution, which means that he starts hacking away at the Rose Gate(behind which is Anthy in a coffin) while the castle and arena fall apart.
And in episode 9, Saionji takes Anthy to the arena and attempts to bring about the revolution prematurely, which leads to him getting squished as the castle falls apart. Also Anthy shows up in a coffin, but it's a little different this time.
So, what is the relationship between these? Is episode 9 a preview for what will happen in the revolution? Is it a concept which was eventually passed over as production wore on? Is it an illusion designed by Akio to make Utena more determined to protect Anthy?

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#2 | Back to Top11-30-2011 10:04:29 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: What is the relationship between Episode 9 and Episodes 38-39?

It's pretty strongly implied by the phone conversation Touga has at the end that he kind had control over the events that Saionji and Utena witness.

Touga:  It's me.
Touga:  Yes, the letter sent to Saionji tonight was from me.
Touga:  Right, in your name.
Touga:  No, it's just a flesh wound.
Touga:  Well, just a few dramatics.
Touga:  Yes, Saionji will be punished by expulsion.
Touga:  Nonsense.
Touga:  Anyone who truly believes he has friends is a fool.

It's hard to say how much of it, but I kinda wonder at times if this wasn't the event Akio uses to draw Touga into his power-trap. Touga gets to control the illusions in the arena, or at least obviously knows what's going on isn't 'real'. After having inside information like that, Touga belongs to Akio.

It also, coincidentally, gets Saionji driven out of the school. Which is an advantage for Akio in dealing with Touga, since if nothing else, Saionji acts as his check and balance (or does so later on.) Touga probably thought it best Saionji get kicked out also, like a special bonus to keep Saionji, who on some level he does care about, away. Even so, Touga probably thinks he's proving to Akio how heartless he is by betraying a friend.

I think? Ooo, I wanna run with this.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#3 | Back to Top12-02-2011 03:23:13 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: What is the relationship between Episode 9 and Episodes 38-39?

I'd think Akio would be annoyed that Touga was sort of giving away the ending.
Also, that leads me to another question: what authority does Mikage have to unexpell Saionji?

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#4 | Back to Top12-02-2011 05:33:30 PM

7scimitarroll
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 11-26-2011
Posts: 12
Website

Re: What is the relationship between Episode 9 and Episodes 38-39?

Also, that leads me to another question: what authority does Mikage have to unexpell Saionji?

I think we're supposed to get the impression that powerful people owed Mikage favors. He didn't have the authority to get Saionji reinstated, but he had leverage on the people who do. The decision would have stuck even when Mikage vanished because Akio probably has that authority as acting chairman.

Last edited by 7scimitarroll (12-02-2011 05:36:55 PM)

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#5 | Back to Top12-02-2011 06:51:05 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: What is the relationship between Episode 9 and Episodes 38-39?

The decision would have stuck even when Mikage vanished because Akio probably has that authority as acting chairman.

Perhaps Akio gave him the power? Just thinking about Mikage's plan and what it meant to Akio could be an entire thread.

Touga gets to control the illusions in the arena, or at least obviously knows what's going on isn't 'real'.

He knew ALL ALONG, then. That was a sweet castle, too. emot-frown

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#6 | Back to Top12-02-2011 07:54:54 PM

icarus
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 07-31-2011
Posts: 18

Re: What is the relationship between Episode 9 and Episodes 38-39?

Atropos wrote:

So, what is the relationship between these? Is episode 9 a preview for what will happen in the revolution? Is it a concept which was eventually passed over as production wore on? Is it an illusion designed by Akio to make Utena more determined to protect Anthy?

Well, here's Ikuhara's notes from the recent remastered DVD release:

Ikuni wrote:

We lined up plot development and visuals suggestive of the series climax. Our goal was to "get viewers anticipating the series' final scene."

Utena saves Anthy. Huh, so that's what the story's about. But what does she save Anthy from? That's the central issue.

In terms of authorial intent, the coffin scene in episode 9 is foreshadowing. It is probably also the last thing you mentioned - an illusion designed to make Utena more determined to win - since just about everything is overseen by Akio (and manipulated by Anthy) to push Utena towards winning the duels. Or so it sometimes seems.

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#7 | Back to Top12-15-2011 05:33:24 PM

Ayu Ohseki
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 12-13-2011
Posts: 24

Re: What is the relationship between Episode 9 and Episodes 38-39?

Actually, I don't know if Saionji was aiming for a revolution specifically--indirectly he does, since everyone who's fit to duel wants the power to change their world in some way or another--as he never says word one about that. His aim was to acquire eternity with Anthy; he didn't really care about anything else.

On Touga's remarks on "a few dramatics"--I always assumed he was talking about his performance in regards to getting cut down by Saionji. The idea that he had control over the illusions is interesting, but I don't personally think it's the case; he sent the letter, but it's Akio's hands on the controls of the observatory, and so even if I'd buy that Touga knew to whatever extent that what they saw was fake, he wasn't controlling exactly what everyone would see. However, this would imply that, even if Akio didn't know at first what was going on, he went along with it--which in turn implies that even if Touga does something he's not supposed to do and claiming authority that isn't his to claim, Akio will not only let him do it but back him up (though possibly only because it was to his benefit). I'd agree that Akio used this event to draw Touga further in, though. Knowing Akio, he probably figured that Touga would pull a stunt like that sooner or later--hell, maybe it was never about Saionji at all, but about Touga seeing just how far he could push his limits, and Saionji was a convenient stooge.

As for Mikage, he's got enough charisma and clout to make even college professors do as he says, and he never takes material rewards--he trades his services for nebulous future favors. I expect he pulled strings with the right people; as I recall, Saionji got reinstated at the recommendation, not the authority, of the Black Rose Society.


"My brother's partner would have to be ‬attractive in face and figure,‭ ‬good at all sports,‭ ‬excellent in her studies,‭ ‬quick-witted, pretty‬ and pure of heart... luxurious and gorgeous, smooth sailing, auspicious for all occasions, born of the Pure Land, a beauty fated to die young, scandalous max, and vexatiously mysterious, at the very least!" --Kiryuu Nanami

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