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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-07-2011 01:34:51 PM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

When discussing the individual creators of Utena and their additions or subtractions to the series, the two who are brought up the most are Saito and Ikuhara; the former due to an ill-received comment about keeping RGU "a fun series for girls" (among other things) and Ikuhara for being...Ikuhara.

I could go on at length about the other three members who don't really get much love/hate from the fanbase-the people who were responsible for Utena's visual style, language, character design, etc., but in light of the controversy over Saito's manga and her contributions (or lack thereof) I wish to pose a question to anyone interested in answering:

What exactly is your view on Saito's work on Utena? And, in addition, do you think she was against just Utena/Anthy or the whole idea of homosexuality in the story in general (or not at all)? Do you think her desire to make the story more appealing to its demographic affected the series any, and how?

Go nuts, everyone. Or just bitch about the Utena manga, if you so choose.


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#2 | Back to Top11-07-2011 07:29:59 PM

yuzukelly
Rose Smilee
Registered: 09-22-2010
Posts: 130

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

I actually really love the manga. it was my first exposure to utena. i've been drawing in the manga style since i was about 6 or 7, and when i read the manga at..i think i was 10? i was totally blown away. i was first drawn in by the name (revolutionary GIRL?! sounds AWESOME!) and i waited for like a month or two for volume 1 (which can be a long time for a kid:)) and her art itself... i myself was really impressed and it made a HUGE impact on me, she's still one of my artistic inspirations:) as for the manga itself, it's def.not as deep, but i like it nonetheless, i dont have a problem with it X)

and i dont think she is against homosexuals. In the movie manga, i think it's pretty clear that they're a couple. (and the kiss! they kiss in the manga too..) also, in the boys of the black rose chapter, in the end where they hold hands, i think that portrays them as a couple. thats probably just my opinion, but i dont think she has anything against gays. i'm probably wrong, but didnt all that come from her comments int he last episode commentary? i think that she didnt want to make them outright lesbians, because i think she was thinking about her job in general. and she's writing for young girls, and wanted it to be more mass liked and mainstream for the sake of utena being popular. im not agreeing, because i love utena the way it is, but im just saying i can understand where she's coming from:)

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#3 | Back to Top11-11-2011 08:22:05 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

At least one reviewer was a bit put off by her pro-lesbian agenda.
http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=466

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#4 | Back to Top11-11-2011 08:52:19 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

W: Utena! Who do you like, Anthy Himemiya or me?
U: Wakaba, what are you talking...
W: Don't you see, you're always with Anthy these days. I don't like it. I belong to you!
U: Wakaba, you're my dearest friend.
W: Then what about Anthy Himemiya ?
U: How to put it...Anthy is kind of like family. When I'm with her and Chuchu I feel at peace, like I don't have to do or say anything.
W: Hmph! Isn't that the sort of thing that married people would say? That's even worse Utena. That means Himemiya is your wife!
U: [Well, she is my Rose Bride but I can't tell her that.]
W: If that's how it is, fine! I'll be the mistress, and I'll just fight the legal wife over you!

Revolutionary Girl Utena
by Chiho Saito and Be-papas.
vol. 3 pp. 48-50

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#5 | Back to Top11-12-2011 05:11:29 AM

Chrome Homura
Poor Saionji :(
From: Oregon, USA
Registered: 06-07-2010
Posts: 517

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

brian wrote:

At least one reviewer was a bit put off by her pro-lesbian agenda.
http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=466

As a lifelong resident of the state of Oregon, I found that part of the review highly offensive. Other than that, most of it can simply be written off as ignorance. Obviously the reviewers of that site are the type who prefer "easy" anime and just aren't interested in paying enough attention to discern the finer touches of a series that isn't meant to hand you all the answers on a silver platter...[/bias]


"My blood is steel, my heart is glass... I have emerged unvanquished from many battles... Never have I been put to flight, but neither have I stood victorious... This bearer stands here alone, forging steel atop a hill of blades... for that reason, my life has never needed meaning. My body has always...

been made of infinite swords!"

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#6 | Back to Top11-12-2011 10:35:30 AM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

brian wrote:

At least one reviewer was a bit put off by her pro-lesbian agenda.
http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=466

Okay, being the one who gave the prompt, I don't really wanna get off topic but...Did that guy just say that Evangelion is bad?

I get that a lot of people wouldn't understand Utena, but for a supposed expert to knock on Eva is just...unheard of. (Maybe I don't read enough reviews?)


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#7 | Back to Top11-13-2011 08:55:06 AM

Seen
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 07-19-2011
Posts: 61

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Didn't Saito get into an argument with Ikuhara over the lesbian thing? I never read the manga, but from what I could see in the summaries, it looked like it was mostly Touga/Utena shipping.

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#8 | Back to Top11-13-2011 02:21:31 PM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Seen wrote:

Didn't Saito get into an argument with Ikuhara over the lesbian thing? I never read the manga, but from what I could see in the summaries, it looked like it was mostly Touga/Utena shipping.

Never trust summaries. Especially English ones. (Really, the one on the first Utena manga makes it sound like a yuri version of Kyo Kara Maoh.)

Honestly, it's a bit of a toss-up between the two, no matter what canon you decide to look at. Saito seems to have liked Utena better with Touga, but I've also noticed there to be quite a bit of Utena/Anthy subtext in the manga, about as much as the anime. There just happens to be more Utena/Touga in the manga than there is in the anime. I'm not entirely sure why this is...


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#9 | Back to Top11-13-2011 03:10:19 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

CoffinBreaker wrote:

Saito seems to have liked Utena better with Touga, but I've also noticed there to be quite a bit of Utena/Anthy subtext in the manga, about as much as the anime. There just happens to be more Utena/Touga in the manga than there is in the anime. I'm not entirely sure why this is...

It's been noted before that the manga seems to be a bridge between the anime series and the movie; I've wondered before if BePAPAS were thinking about and workshopping the movie even before they even finished either series.

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#10 | Back to Top07-15-2012 05:42:55 PM

MikoGalatea
Rose Bride
From: England, UK
Registered: 02-25-2012
Posts: 115
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

I don't think Saito is a homophobe - or if she was, then she got over it by at least around the time the movie was being made. (And she draws girl/girl kisses in both mangas with the lips seen to be touching on-page, which is more than a lot of shoujo mangaka are willing to draw.) It's worth remembering that, although the series and manga were simultaneous projects, the manga did start serialisation some months before the anime started airing; for all we know, Saito could've decided that manga!Juri would be straight long before the rest of Be-PaPas decided that series!Juri would be a lesbian.

Looking at the transcript for the infamous episode commentry again, two things strike me: First, it looks like Ikuhara wasn't upfront about what he actually wanted the Anthy/Utena relationship to be like until a fair bit down the line, which seemed to piss Saito off. Second, Ikuhara could very well have come off as a pervert at the workshop; of course, we as viewers watching the finished anime know that he can and does portray lesbianism in a respectful, sympathetic and nuanced manner, but I wouldn't be surprised if Saito had her doubts about a man's intentions in presenting two girls as the main romantic couple.

As for the (first) manga itself, based on this interview, I think there were two main factors that scuppered it. The first is that Saito didn't understand what kind of work SKU was supposed to be, which was at least partly the fault of Ikuhara not giving her straight answers about that. The other one is the magazine it ran in; Ciao is mainly targeted at 9-to-13-year-old girls and (based on the official site for it) has a rather twee image, so there must've been quite a limit to the degree to which SKU's stickier themes could be approached.

For what it's worth, I find the first manga lacklustre, but happen to love the movie-manga (though the movie itself is still superior). Perhaps for some reason I have an easier time judging the movie-manga on its own terms instead of always comparing it to the animated version, but it could also be the case that Saito had a better idea of what SKU was actually about when she created it; plus, it helped that it was aimed at an older audience (I think it was in special spinoff issues of what's now known as BetsuComi) which allowed her to tackle the stickier themes more directly.

And just because I'm curious: How many of you guys have read any of Saito's non-SKU manga, and what did you think of it?

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#11 | Back to Top07-15-2012 05:52:09 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

How many of you guys have read any of Saito's non-SKU manga, and what did you think of it?

I did.  I find most of them too flowery and too "generically shoujo", and are completely devoid of SKU TV's character-development-wise intricacies.  Those really are stories meant for the kinda fangirls who think they like angst, but are really fans of contrived, unrealistic melodrama.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#12 | Back to Top07-16-2012 02:40:15 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

brian wrote:

At least one reviewer was a bit put off by her pro-lesbian agenda.
http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=466

That one reviewer - and a whole lot of other people on the internet - don't have the first idea of what they're talking about. They make these pronouncements without the first bit of knowledge about the background of Utena's development, and they don't even want to know the truth because it would shut down all their notions that they find so pithy and clever. It's willful ignorance.

There is no way to state definitively if Saito has homophobic tendencies or not. Given her seemingly rather traditional Japanese mindset, it's quite possible she does, but she would also never, ever say so directly. Keeping your true opinions to yourself and seeking harmony in inoffensive neutrality is the Japanese way.

She makes it clear in the commentary that her primary interest was in making Utena a financially successful, popular and profitable shoujo franchise. In this, she had the understandable - but erroneous - idea that a female/female romance would be an obstacle to that goal.

The success of Utena the series no doubt convinced her that this view was incorrect, which is why we hear nothing about any objections to the content of the Utena movie. However, her movie manga still ships Utena with Touga, hard. It's clear that that is her preference.

Ultimately, I think that her influence was not malignant, but I do blame her for not allowing Ikuhara to deliver what he could've delivered in the television series had he been free from her interference.

I will also agree that her work is formulaic and uninspired. As someone seeking mainstream commercial success, that's perhaps to be expected, but it is all completely by-the-book shoujo.

Last edited by Aelanie (07-16-2012 02:44:08 PM)

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#13 | Back to Top07-16-2012 03:26:37 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Well, that reviewer seems to have a rather simplistic view on SKU, but each to their o-

Anthy's monkey (well, it's remotely a monkey) that is quite possibly the world's ugliest show mascot.

emot-mademot-mademot-mademot-mademot-mademot-mad

Also, I'm pretty sure the floating staircases were only in the movie.

As for Saito, I think her main concern was that the show wouldn't be as popular as it would be if it focused on a heterosexual romance. I gotta be honest, I wasn't very impressed by the manga, but I didn't read all of it, so I can't realy give it a fair judgement. I feel like I'm better of watching the show again if I want more of Utena.

I guess I should check out the movie manga, though.

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#14 | Back to Top07-16-2012 04:47:01 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Aelanie wrote:

Ultimately, I think that her influence was not malignant, but I do blame her for not allowing Ikuhara to deliver what he could've delivered in the television series had he been free from her interference.

Saito and Ikuhara were not the only members of BePAPAS. If the others were opposed to Saito's objections they could have sided with Ikuhara and voted her down. This infers that there were other concerns and issues beyond the rather simplistic view that Saito is the devil.

In terms of Saito's standard shoujo story telling, I do agree that the series manga was weak. However, as well as marketing Saito had to deal with the limitations of the medium; most prominently, the length. Trying to hammer the whole of Utena into a limited five volumes strikes me as something rather difficult. It's also worth re-examining in contrast to the World Exists For Me, a manga that lasted all of two books before it was cancelled due to low sales. This series had a decent concept but it was an extremely shoujo series in every possible negative connitations of the word. It's obviously written by the same person/s who wrote Utena and has all the same glaring flaws. Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd... while it was illustrated by Saito, it's made pretty clear in the notes that the bulk of the writing was done by Ikuhara.

As flawed as both the series manga and the movie manga were, I sincerly doubt that either of these are 100% Chiho Saito. Ikuhara would have had a hand in it; the other members of BePAPAS would have breathed down Saito's neck on many occasions.

While there were many weaknesses in the manga, there's a reason they are there:

1. There's timing. The manga was already being published by the time the anime went into full production. Babies grow up. I've utterly no doubt that the pitch Ikuhara gave Saito was a very different animal to the one that evolved into the series.
2. Length.
3. Marketing. Saito was there to help sell Utena to the target audience. Admittedly that target was altered to something rather older by the time the final storyboards were written up, but by this time it was really too late to redesign the whole manga series.

I wasn't aware of the magazine, Chiao, that Utena originally ran in but as far as I'm concerned it's really the last piece of the puzzle.

There were many, many, many factors that influenced the whole franchise. And to put it bluntly, suggesting that Ikuhara was so utterly spineless that he allowed the whole thing to be hijacked by one single late-joining member of BePAPAS is incredibly insulting to BePAPAS in general and to Ikuhara in particular.

Last edited by crystalwren (07-16-2012 04:49:35 PM)

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#15 | Back to Top07-16-2012 05:44:44 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

It's good that I suggested nothing of the kind then, isn't it?

It has nothing to do with being "spineless", it has to do with making a compromise. He made one, for the sake of the project. If anything, that's a compliment on his leadership. The person who wouldn't compromise on the matter is Saito. "If that's the route you're taking, I quit!" was her stance by Ikuhara's account, and she doesn't contradict this. He placated her, the unreasonable element, and yet still didn't surrender what he saw as his vision, because in his own words, he "did it anyway".

I suggest you think other people's comments through more carefully in future.

Last edited by Aelanie (07-16-2012 05:48:41 PM)

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#16 | Back to Top07-16-2012 06:11:39 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

crystalwren wrote:

In terms of Saito's standard shoujo story telling, I do agree that the series manga was weak.

Word, crystalwren.  Oh, and I like your post at 05:47:01 PM a lot, as it gets me looking at facades of the manga's creation I had overlooked before; that, and you wrote what you wrote in a reasonable manner.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#17 | Back to Top07-16-2012 06:15:13 PM

MikoGalatea
Rose Bride
From: England, UK
Registered: 02-25-2012
Posts: 115
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Sorry for the tangent, but... given that SKU is such a feminist work, am I the only one who finds it painfully ironic that the only female member of Be-PaPas is the one that gets all the hate from the fandom?

Granted, said hate has little to nothing to do with her gender specifically, but I can't help noticing all the same.

Anyway.

Lurv wrote:

I gotta be honest, I wasn't very impressed by the manga, but I didn't read all of it, so I can't realy give it a fair judgement. I feel like I'm better of watching the show again if I want more of Utena.

I guess I should check out the movie manga, though.

At least the movie-manga is just one volume, and I think it's still fairly easy to get hold of even now, which is more than I can say for some volumes of the first manga. (Getting hold of a decent secondhand copy of the fifth volume at a reasonable price was such a pain for me.)

Like I already said, I personally enjoyed the movie-manga, though admittedly a good part of my love for it may be bleedover from my love for the movie itself, and I'm not pretending it's flawless by any means. It's billed on the very back cover as a very liberal adaptation, so whatever you may think of it, it's at least interesting to compare and contrast it with the movie proper. I know the way one reveal was handled differently made me think a little more about movie!Shiori's characterisation, for example, but that's just me.

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#18 | Back to Top07-16-2012 06:19:15 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Aelanie wrote:

It's good that I suggested nothing of the kind then, isn't it?

It has nothing to do with being "spineless", it has to do with making a compromise. He made one, for the sake of the project. If anything, that's a compliment on his leadership. The person who wouldn't compromise on the matter is Saito. "If that's the route you're taking, I quit!" was her stance by Ikuhara's account, and she doesn't contradict this. He placated her, the unreasonable element, and yet still didn't surrender what he saw as his vision, because in his own words, he "did it anyway".

I suggest you think other people's comments through more carefully in future.

And I think you need to understand the mechanics of a group project, and also of marketing. Ikuhara and Saito were NOT the only members of BePAPAS. The both of them had one vote each. Therefore, the other members of BePAPAS would have been the deciding factor of whether or not Saito's objections would be carried or denyed. Saito is a bog standard shoujo artist; easy to find, easy to replace, even if you need to find someone who had/has the same amount of popularity and marketability. And ultimately, the entirety of the franchise rested on whether or not it could be marketed. Whether or not it could make money.  Whether or not it was wirth the investment. Neither Saito nor Ikuhara nor any other member of BePAPAS were the people who made the final decision of ANYTHING. It was the people who were laying down the money. If they thought that the project would or would not be successful if certain themes or storylines were featured, then the project would not have gone ahead.

Saying that the entire franchise was at the mercy of Saito- or any one single person involved- is extremely, how should I put it, simplistic. It's also massive disservice to the other members of BePAPAS and to everyone who worked on the project regardless of their level of influence.

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#19 | Back to Top07-16-2012 06:37:21 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Frankly, I find your assertions somewhat contradictory. You seem fixated on castigating me for suggesting this was "Ikuhara vs. Saito" only - yet at the same time, you seem to be suggesting that this was a situation where if Ikuhara wanted to, he could've pulled rank, kicked Saito the curb and found some other more pliant manga artist.

Either way, it's you who are misunderstanding the dynamics at play.

Saito is a bog standard shoujo artist; easy to find, easy to replace, even if you need to find someone who had/has the same amount of popularity and marketability.

This is not the case. Saito was more than a hire-on, Ikuhara had long admired her work and been inspired by her illustrations. He sought her out specifically and considered her an important project partner. It was natural that he would make concessions to her for the sake of keeping her happy.

Neither Saito nor Ikuhara nor any other member of BePAPAS were the people who made the final decision of ANYTHING. It was the people who were laying down the money. If they thought that the project would or would not be successful if certain themes or storylines were featured, then the project would not have gone ahead.

This is also a mischaracterization of the situation. From the beginning, it was Ikuhara's goal to have the creative freedom on a project of his own. That lack of control, and the frustration it gave him, is what caused him to grow disillusioned with working on Sailor Moon. Utena was, in no uncertain terms, his baby, and he actually was one of the ones "laying down the money". Part of the project financing came out of his own pocket.

To pretend then that he was not the head of the project is naive, but as I've said, he placated Saito's objections and allowed her autonomy over creating the manga version. You're right, he did not make any unilateral decisions - but that is merely because he was a better leader than that, not because he wasn't in a position to do so if he wished.

Now please stop imagining insults to other Utena staff where none exist. Your defensive zealotry is unpleasant and uncalled for.

Last edited by Aelanie (07-16-2012 06:39:55 PM)

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#20 | Back to Top07-16-2012 07:04:02 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Right, Aelinie, I'm stopping this right here. Not because I agree with you in ANY aspect, but because this is getting unpleasant and is beginning to go against both the rules and the spirit of the forum.

I wish to emphasise that I am not conceding. I have a strong background in the aspects of financial management of any group project, the politics of said group project, the wrangling of geniuses and how all of these interact. I have also spent many hours reading the background material regarding the creation and influences of SKU, and discussing- and often arguing- all this with others re: the way all of these things affected the course of the series.

I strongly disagree with both your opinions and how you are framing your responses. But I am not continuing this conversation out of respect for both the moderators and the other members of this forum.

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#21 | Back to Top07-16-2012 07:34:51 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

MikoGalatea wrote:

Like I already said, I personally enjoyed the movie-manga, though admittedly a good part of my love for it may be bleedover from my love for the movie itself, and I'm not pretending it's flawless by any means. It's billed on the very back cover as a very liberal adaptation, so whatever you may think of it, it's at least interesting to compare and contrast it with the movie proper. I know the way one reveal was handled differently made me think a little more about movie!Shiori's characterisation, for example, but that's just me.

Well, you got me interested now. I don't necessarily hate change, since it can be fun to see something new to the story.

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#22 | Back to Top07-16-2012 08:23:34 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

crystalwren wrote:

Right, Aelinie, I'm stopping this right here. Not because I agree with you in ANY aspect, but because this is getting unpleasant and is beginning to go against both the rules and the spirit of the forum.

I wish to emphasize that I am not conceding. I have a strong background in the aspects of financial management of any group project, the politics of said group project, the wrangling of geniuses and how all of these interact. I have also spent many hours reading the background material regarding the creation and influences of SKU, and discussing- and often arguing- all this with others re: the way all of these things affected the course of the series.

I strongly disagree with both your opinions and how you are framing your responses. But I am not continuing this conversation out of respect for both the moderators and the other members of this forum.

Very graceful of you to take the time to soliloquize on how much more right you are before magnanimously bowing out, I must say. The fact is, we neither of us will ever know the real truth of the matter. We are speculating based on the relatively few details that have been revealed to us, and obviously have arrived at very different conclusions. Your touted "expertise" on the subject is little more than an assertion that your fan-fu is stronger than mine, and as such, comes off as quite childish.

I didn't attack your stance as being an insult to the creators, as you have mine. That is the difference between us. This debate could've proceeded more civilly if you'd left aside your unnecessary indignation toward an imaginary offense against them. I meant none, they certainly can take none from anything said here, and it is not your place to do so on their behalf.

Last edited by Aelanie (07-16-2012 08:35:58 PM)

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#23 | Back to Top07-16-2012 10:33:08 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Aelanie, wren, I see two forum members who care passionately about SKU, but whose emotions run so high when they talk about it that they can take disagreements rather personally.  As a mod, I'm not interested in who's right, but I am interested in keeping the peace.  Wren, I really respect that you saw what was happening and backed out; sometimes it really is best to step away and breathe.  Aelanie, I think the tone of your last post suggests that you could stand to step away and breathe as well.  To pick some words from both of your posts, when you're arguing about anime and phrases come out like "incredibly insulting," "defensive zealotry," "massive disservice," "childish," "unnecessary indignation," and anything that is both capitalized AND bolded, it's usually time to go eat a sandwich, get some perspective, and come back later.

Be good to each other, is all I'm trying to say.  Here is a fellow fan who cares about SKU as much as you do.  Cherish that, and talk with each other instead of at each other!  And never forget about the guide for being offended on IRG, which is there to help, as are the mods.  emot-smile

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#24 | Back to Top07-17-2012 02:46:12 AM

MikoGalatea
Rose Bride
From: England, UK
Registered: 02-25-2012
Posts: 115
Website

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

Lurv wrote:

MikoGalatea wrote:

Like I already said, I personally enjoyed the movie-manga, though admittedly a good part of my love for it may be bleedover from my love for the movie itself, and I'm not pretending it's flawless by any means. It's billed on the very back cover as a very liberal adaptation, so whatever you may think of it, it's at least interesting to compare and contrast it with the movie proper. I know the way one reveal was handled differently made me think a little more about movie!Shiori's characterisation, for example, but that's just me.

Well, you got me interested now. I don't necessarily hate change, since it can be fun to see something new to the story.

I agree. Some changes work and some don't, but it's nice to have another interpretation; it would've been boring as heck if the adaptation was just a carbon copy of the movie it's based on.

The weird thing about my bolded statement there is, Shiori isn't even in the movie-manga. I just couldn't help noting how movie!Shiori had a fairly muted reaction to something that shocked movie-manga!Utena to tears. But perhaps I'll save my elaboration on that for the "differences between versions" thread; I've been meaning to do a more thorough comparison between the movie and movie-manga anyway.

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#25 | Back to Top08-01-2014 01:42:06 PM

Karuka
Electric Apocalypse
From: Planet Uranus
Registered: 06-27-2014
Posts: 160

Re: Chiho Saito: Discussion Prompt

So I'm reviving this thread after satyreyes wishes to take the mangaka talk here and out of my own thread about manga-movie.

in the other thread the talk that was raised was about the mangaka had made homophobic comments.
I personally do not follow any other those stuff about who said what etc, I just enjoy a story if it's good and to my taste.
So it came out as a surprise to me that there was a hate over the manga and the mangaka in particular.

After having read the interview in question as it was linked to me I was even more confused on why people were offended and thought the comment was homophobic emot-confused

While reading this thread I got even more info on the matter so it made even more sense, so we have:

1. famous shoujo mangaka, publishing in a magazine for younger girls
so her "if you are doing this I'm out" comment can mean the follow
- making something too sensual to be acceptable for a target audience age group
- having a reputation to keep, she can't risk her status
2. We don't really know what Ikuhara had suggested, what if it was too perverted or degrading for the female characters? We will never know, all we know is that it was at the beginning of the project and they had a misunderstanding

with the other interview you guys posted here it was more clear that she had no objections to go more sensual in the movie-manga since the magazine it was published it was for an older target audience.

The manga-movie story has sure a long utena touga having sex scene, but it also has a lot more kissing between utena and anthy and it actually shows in the end being together as a normal couple. So the mangaka being homophobic seems to me a little out of place.

Yet again taking as example the things I have been called simply because I disagree with someone, there is nothing easier than to call someone names and blame them for things they never said nor meant, nor did...

Last edited by Karuka (08-01-2014 01:42:54 PM)


まずここでこのオスカル・フランソワの命をたってからにされるがよい!

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