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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top12-18-2006 04:07:18 AM

Clarice
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"Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

Now, I am sure this is a topic I have seen on other mailing lists and whatnot, but I still don't really know exactly what to make of all of them. And I have the memory of a gnat. So, I thought I would bring it up here, and see what all the wonderful minds we have here can make of it. emot-biggrin

Now, in this episode, Nanami and Utena have a conversation about Akio in the grounds of the school, and their dialogue is interspersed with statues of various kinds. Hence:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/statue1.jpg
[reflections/silhouettes of real couples in love, necking in the park]
Nanami:  That sort really has it good.
[classical scuplture of a woman in Greek dress]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/statue2.jpg
Utena:  They're really flaunting it, aren't they?
Nanami:  I'm talking about the Chairman.
[two male figures back to back, perhaps dancing, perhaps satyrs?]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/statue3.jpg
Utena:  Oh, um.
Nanami:  What a waste for Himemiya Anthy to have such a kind brother like that.
Utena:  How is it a waste if they're siblings?
Nanami:  Hey, anyone would get weak in the knees with a cool brother like that.
Nanami:  Even that Himemiya Anthy.
Utena:  You're the only one who's like that.
[figure with harp; looks like Orpheus]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/statue4.jpg
Nanami:  What're you upset about?
Nanami:  You like the Chairman, don't you?
Utena:  What're you talking about?!
[statue of man holding struggling woman; looks like Zeus or some other prominent Greek god?]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/statue5.jpg
Nanami:  See, I thought so!
Nanami:  So, that was it.
Nanami:  Let's both do our best.
[four animals standing on one another; rooster on cat on dog on donkey]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/mrsakioohtori/statue6.jpg
Utena:  What's that supposed to mean?

The only one I can readily identify is Orpheus; the man and the woman remind me distinctly of the scuplture Rape Of The Sabine Women, by Giambologna, but it lacks the third figure. And I am sure I have seen one closer to that somewhere, although I can't quite remember the mythological figures represented in it. Does anyone else know?

So, yes, what I am asking is this, anyway: what do you think the figures represent? On a global level the whole scene reminds me distinctly of the gardens of Versailles, which is likely not a coincidence. ;) If you've never been, the gardens are overwhelmingly huge, dominated by an ornamental lake, filled with Greek/Roman statues, and usually occupied by a lot of people meandering about. They are really rather beautiful. Still, at the start of the sequence, I noticed that there were what looked like either unformed or perhaps modern-art statues on the path Utena and Nanami choose to take; they're misshapen or without defined form. Perhaps this is an analogy in and of itself...?

I will also start the ball rolling by looking at the one statue I do recognise -- Orpheus is a mythological figure. The story most associated with him (quoted from the Wikipedia) is:

...in which he figures is that of his wife Eurydice (also known as Agriope). While fleeing from Aristaeus (son of Apollo), she was bitten by a serpent which brought her to her death. Distraught, Orpheus played such sad songs and sang so mournfully that all the nymphs and gods wept and gave him advice. Orpheus went down to the lower world and by his music softened the hearts of Hades and Persephone (the only person to ever do so), who agreed to allow Eurydice to return with him to earth. But the condition was attached that he should walk in front of her and not look back until he had reached the upper world. In his anxiety he broke his promise, and Eurydice vanished again from his sight.

What does this mean, particularly in context of the conversation between Utena and Nanami? Is Orpheus reminscient of Utena? Utena essentially is travelling down to the underground to bring Anthy back (and you could argue that Utena has had this desire from the beginning, given the fact that despite the fact she has repressed the memory of Anthy's suffering it IS what drives her forward; she wants to return to the place where Anthy is and free her from her suffering; one could also argue she softened the heart of Dios, who is moved by her tears and encourages her to be the one to save Anthy in his place). However, Utena has her own temptations to draw her away from her mission -- it's not looking back to Anthy. Ironically, it is looking away from Anthy that will lose her the other girl, which sits quite well with the fact that the entire series takes various cliches and archetypes and turns them on their head. Here, it is pointed out that although Utena truly does want to save Anthy, Akio is proving a mighty distraction...and that she stands to lose Anthy through Akio. Which is pretty much the way he wants it to be. school-devil

Thoughts, anyone?

Edit: Added in pictures for you. emot-smile

Last edited by Giovanna (12-21-2006 03:46:20 PM)


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#2 | Back to Top12-18-2006 02:05:26 PM

A Day Without Me
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From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

The final statue seems to come from a Grimms' fairy tale, The Bremen Town Musicians. It is a tale of four abused animals, a rooster, a cat, a dog, and a donkey, who run away from their owners for the town of Bremen, which is supposedly a place where they can live sans owners. On the way, they stop at a cottage to try to get some food, and stand on eachothers' backs whilst "singing" for the food. There are some robbers in the cottage, and they get scared crapless and run off. So the animals take over the cottage, although the robbers come back to investigate. But one goes in and, in the dark, gets confused/attacked by the animals, and thinks supernatural forces are attacking him. So the robbers leave and never return, and the animals live out their days there.

Actually, in verifying that I recalled the story correctly I came upon this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … 500pix.jpg. There's our statue!


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#3 | Back to Top12-18-2006 02:28:58 PM

MissMocha
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From: Tallahassee, Fl
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Posts: 4632

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

For some reason I'm thinking that one of the statues (the struggling couple, maybe?) was Pygmalion and Galatea, but it's been a while since I saw that episode. That's not a very good correlation, though, to anything in the show. Screencaps, maybe?

And A Day Without Me? You totally beat me to Bremen. You rock.

Last edited by morosemocha (12-18-2006 02:31:07 PM)


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#4 | Back to Top12-18-2006 02:31:24 PM

A Day Without Me
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From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

morosemocha wrote:

And A Day Without Me? You totally beat me to Bremen. You rock.

Hehe, thanks - I didn't even notice it up until I saw that all written out, for some reason the animals standing on one another didn't register visually.


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#5 | Back to Top12-21-2006 03:44:23 PM

Clarice
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From: New Zealand
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Posts: 3102
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

Giovanna wrote:

This post rocks, Clarice. I've wondered about the statues before. I'm going to screencap and add them into your post (if you don't mind) when I get home, it'll be a lot easier to discuss with the visuals. emot-smile

Visuals are all good. emot-dance


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#6 | Back to Top12-21-2006 03:57:25 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

A Day Without Me wrote:

The final statue seems to come from a Grimms' fairy tale, The Bremen Town Musicians. It is a tale of four abused animals, a rooster, a cat, a dog, and a donkey, who run away from their owners for the town of Bremen, which is supposedly a place where they can live sans owners. On the way, they stop at a cottage to try to get some food, and stand on eachothers' backs whilst "singing" for the food. There are some robbers in the cottage, and they get scared crapless and run off. So the animals take over the cottage, although the robbers come back to investigate. But one goes in and, in the dark, gets confused/attacked by the animals, and thinks supernatural forces are attacking him. So the robbers leave and never return, and the animals live out their days there.

Actually, in verifying that I recalled the story correctly I came upon this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … 500pix.jpg. There's our statue!

Nice. Damn you, Utena! I really wish I had the art knowhow to name all these, because judging from other occasions where works of art are blatantly ripped off in the series, they're probably direct copies.

The two male figures I don't recognize, but they appear quite boyish.

I would say for the man and the stuggling woman, that it smacks of Zeus and any number of his abductions, except he rarely did that presented as himself. But that figure also looks like he might be Poseidon. Also there's a third figure there, bottom right. It looks kinda like an arm and shoulder. Whatever it is there's obvious lack of consent, which is interesting given its timing in the conversation.

One thing I find really odd about this is you've got those gorgeous statues and they're in perfect condition, but in the background...it's rubble. It looks like ruins. Of what?


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#7 | Back to Top12-21-2006 04:22:53 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

A Day Without Me wrote:

The final statue seems to come from a Grimms' fairy tale, The Bremen Town Musicians. It is a tale of four abused animals, a rooster, a cat, a dog, and a donkey, who run away from their owners for the town of Bremen, which is supposedly a place where they can live sans owners. On the way, they stop at a cottage to try to get some food, and stand on eachothers' backs whilst "singing" for the food. There are some robbers in the cottage, and they get scared crapless and run off. So the animals take over the cottage, although the robbers come back to investigate. But one goes in and, in the dark, gets confused/attacked by the animals, and thinks supernatural forces are attacking him. So the robbers leave and never return, and the animals live out their days there.

Actually, in verifying that I recalled the story correctly I came upon this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … 500pix.jpg. There's our statue!

Giovanna wrote:

Nice. Damn you, Utena! I really wish I had the art knowhow to name all these, because judging from other occasions where works of art are blatantly ripped off in the series, they're probably direct copies.

I think that they are -- unfortunately most of my art knowledge is limited to paintings, particularly those around the Raphaelite period. Although the irony there is that the last I was in the Louvre, I spent most of my time looking at statues. And at the Musee Rodin, I camped out in front of Le Baiser for rather a long time. Curse that marble. [sulks]

Still, I love those stacked animals...but what do they mean in the context of the conversation? I am thinking of Bremen as being an analogy for Ohtori -- simply because of the emphasis the series places on the fact that the students of the school have very little in the way of adult/parental influence. It's either that, or we think of adulthood as being the true Bremen, and Ohotri being kind of a halfway-house...which actually makes more context in terms of the story. I mean, children must have adults; they can't live otherwise, they simply don't have the abilities or the resources. Teenagers, however, are on the cusp of two worlds and could in theory get along on their own...albeit with a higher potential for disaster. emot-rolleyes But yeah, if we look at the story and then at Ohtori...all the adults who interfere with the lives of the students get dicked over. Think of Miki's teacher, Kanae's mother, Miki's father, etc...they're like the robbers, the interlopers, and when they leave the students can do what they like. Like wild animals. (I etc-love Kozue.)

Giovanna wrote:

The two male figures I don't recognize, but they appear quite boyish.

They damn well remind me of something, but I really can't think what. Maybe it's Bacchus I'm thinking of? Argh!

Giovanna wrote:

I would say for the man and the stuggling woman, that it smacks of Zeus and any number of his abductions, except he rarely did that presented as himself. But that figure also looks like he might be Poseidon. Also there's a third figure there, bottom right. It looks kinda like an arm and shoulder. Whatever it is there's obvious lack of consent, which is interesting given its timing in the conversation.

At first I thought it was Zeus or Poseidon, and then I was reminded of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_the_Sabines I couldn't see the third figure in the anime to begin with although I am familiar with the statue anyway, but...the more I look, the more I agree. And I should make some sort of opinion on this, but I am falling asleep so I will let someone else speak. emot-biggrin And I'll just dream of going to Firenze to see the statue for myself...


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#8 | Back to Top12-22-2006 10:57:14 AM

iruka
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Registered: 11-11-2006
Posts: 134

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

Clarice wrote:

[classical scuplture of a woman in Greek dress]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/ … tatue2.jpg

This made me think of the reconstruction of the Venus de Milo, but her right hand is in a different position...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Restortation-Venus-de-Milo.jpg/346px-Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Restortation-Venus-de-Milo.jpg


Clarice wrote:

[statue of man holding struggling woman; looks like Zeus or some other prominent Greek god?]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/ … tatue5.jpg

What first came to my mind was Hades' abduction of Persephone. So I imagegoogled persephone hades and voila!

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/images/mlw_0001_0003_0_img0160.jpg
http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pa-Pr/Persephone.html

WHICH IS INTERESTING BECAUSE Persephone and Hades are mentioned in that quote about Orpheus that Clarice posted!


From what I was told as a child, Hades abducted Persephone so she could be his wife in the Underworld. Her mother Demetra(?) (goddess of agriculture) got depressed so they made a deal that half of the year Persephone would spend with her mother, and the other half with Hades. And that's why half of the year (spring, summer; when Persephone is with her mom) the world is sunny and blooming, and the other half (autumn, winter; when Persephone is in the Underworld) it's dead and depressing.


Obviously all these statues exist IRL. (alhough, googling Orpheus doesn't get me any statue that looks like the Utena one?) The only one I was aware of up 'till now is the Bremen one. Oh I love how this forum makes me think and stuff. emot-dance

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#9 | Back to Top12-22-2006 01:23:41 PM

rhyaniwyn
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From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

Well, I can't contribute much so far except a more complete Hades & Persephone.

Hades - God of the Underworld (land of the dead)
Demeter - Earth Goddess (Agriculture, Fertility)
Persephone - Demeter's daughter

Hades saw Persephone one day and became smitten.  He abducted/lured her to the Underworld, where he fed her pomegranate seeds.  The rule is, if you eat anything in the Underworld, you are trapped there forever.

Demeter was so grief-stricken that the world became blighted by an endless winter, causing the other gods intervene.

Since Persephone only ate half of the pomegranate seeds (the actual number varies), it was agreed that she would live half the year in the Underworld as Hades's wife, and half on Earth with her mother.  As iruka said, when Persephone is in the Underworld, Demeter's depression causes autumn and winter.


Well, and I think it's possible the statue has something to do with later-day Eros (Cupid).  There's one of a childish-looking Psyche and Eros kissing, but it's not the same.  If they were satyrs, they'd most likely have goat-legs and horns (a la Pan).  Wish I could tell what they were holding.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (12-22-2006 01:48:45 PM)


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#10 | Back to Top12-22-2006 01:49:10 PM

Lightice
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From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Well, and I think it's possible the statue has something to do with later-day Eros (Cupid).  There's one of a childish-looking Psyche and Eros kissing, but it's not the same.  If they were satyrs, they'd have goat-legs and horns (a la Pan).

How about Castor and Pollux? I can't say I remember a statue exactly like that, but that's what I first taught when I saw them, especially when they're mentioned in the series...


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#11 | Back to Top12-22-2006 01:49:18 PM

satyreyes
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

The statue of the generic-looking Greek woman is very close to this statue of the muse Urania (portfolio: astronomy and higher learning): http://www.bo.astro.it/~biblio/Vultus-U … _fig01.jpg

It's not perfect, though; for one thing, Urania isn't half-naked.  As for the dancing boys, they ring loud bells.  I'm looking into it.  I thought of Castor and Pollux too, but they tend to be depicted as warrior young men rather than as dancing toddlers.

Last edited by satyreyes (12-22-2006 01:50:51 PM)

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#12 | Back to Top12-22-2006 01:53:54 PM

rhyaniwyn
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From: Tallahassee, FL
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

I was trying to remember any other figures represented as children.  Castor and Pollux are a good idea!


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#13 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:06:59 PM

iruka
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

I googled them a while ago and found nothing... as satyreyes said, they're shown as young men.

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#14 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:08:21 PM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

iruka wrote:

Clarice wrote:

[statue of man holding struggling woman; looks like Zeus or some other prominent Greek god?]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/ … tatue5.jpg

What first came to my mind was Hades' abduction of Persephone. So I imagegoogled persephone hades and voila!

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/images/ … mg0160.jpg
http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pa-Pr/Persephone.html

Full article with more shots.

The Rape of the Proserpina was the first of the Borghese group of sculptures and is dated between the years of 1621-1622. Bernini chose depict the peak moment of the story of the Rape of Proserpina, while the characters' are in mid-action. Proserpina is trying desperately to escape Pluto’s grasp as he carries her to Hades, which is represented by Cereberus, the three-headed dog.  Bernini crafted this piece to be viewed from the front because it is the “explosive energy” of the horrible event taking place and Proserpina’s pathetic attempt to defend herself that is at show.

Bernini made his mark by working with the space around his sculptures to draw in its viewers. Looking at The Rape of Proserpina is a journey and Bernini uses line and gaze to guide his audience around the sculpture in order to discover its particular meaning. The left side of the work shows Pluto’s aggressive stride and immediately the viewer is able to see that this image follows along with a story.With Pluto’s lunging stance, the viewer is immediately grabbed. To the onlooker, the figure shows a strong and powerful male seizing a young and voluptuous woman. The soft curving lines of the sculpture lead the viewer’s eyes around to the front to discover Proserpina as she tries to detach herself from Pluto’s strong hold. Simultaneously, Pluto shows an expression of slight confusion and finds it entertaining that Proserpina would deny him. Bernini crafted Proserpina looking away from her captor as she tries to liberate her body from the hold he has on her. If we follow her stare, we journey around to the right side. Bernini depicts her lips as though they are speaking, crying out for help as Pluto’s hands are forced into her full thigh. Pluto is taking Proserpina to Hades because he is the “Ruler of the Underworld.”

The Rape of Proserpina shows beautifully what a master Bernini was with stone. He inctegrated fabulous detail in these figures, enough to make one forget he was even using stone and not soft malleable clay to create this sculpture. He shows Proserpina’s lips, slightly opened, as if she were screaming and begging for help. Upon closer examination, one would notice the delicately crafted marble tears that look as though they are literally dripping down her face. Her face is so realistic it truly looks as if she is in agony and could scream. The way Pluto’s hands wrap around Proserpina gives the impression that his fingers are digging into her soft flesh. Bernini paid careful attention to detail, and again upon closer inspection, the viewer should notice the lifelike fingers and flesh he added to this piece.

Wikipedia link to Bernini

If anyone knows the history of this sculpture, can they let us know whether it's relevant or not? The myth is probably more relevant, but it's another thing to follow up on.

Maybe I'm looking too deep, but that myth was the center of the Eleusinian Mysteries. I'll have to follow up a bit when I get home.


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#15 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:09:08 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

satyreyes wrote:

I thought of Castor and Pollux too, but they tend to be depicted as warrior young men rather than as dancing toddlers.

Aren't the Gemini in astrology Castor and Pollux? And they're usually decipted as babies or toddlers...
I admit, I'm not an expert, as far as the classics go, but I've always made that association.


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#16 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:09:16 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

iruka wrote:

Clarice wrote:

[classical scuplture of a woman in Greek dress]
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/ … tatue2.jpg

This made me think of the reconstruction of the Venus de Milo, but her right hand is in a different position...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … e-Milo.jpg

Damn, it looks similar though. [chews on lip] This is why I hate art; I tend to be very blase about it at the best of times and walk past a lot of very interesting works with only casual glances. AND THEN THE BASTARDS COME BACK TO HAUNT ME ARGH. I am at least going to go away and read more about this. Man, and I'd sulk over how this is going to bug me FOREVER now, but...dammit, who started this? emot-tongue

iruka wrote:

What first came to my mind was Hades' abduction of Persephone. So I imagegoogled persephone hades and voila!

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/images/ … mg0160.jpg
http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pa-Pr/Persephone.html

WHICH IS INTERESTING BECAUSE Persephone and Hades are mentioned in that quote about Orpheus that Clarice posted!


From what I was told as a child, Hades abducted Persephone so she could be his wife in the Underworld. Her mother Demetra(?) (goddess of agriculture) got depressed so they made a deal that half of the year Persephone would spend with her mother, and the other half with Hades. And that's why half of the year (spring, summer; when Persephone is with her mom) the world is sunny and blooming, and the other half (autumn, winter; when Persephone is in the Underworld) it's dead and depressing.


Obviously all these statues exist IRL. (alhough, googling Orpheus doesn't get me any statue that looks like the Utena one?) The only one I was aware of up 'till now is the Bremen one. Oh I love how this forum makes me think and stuff. emot-dance

Eureka! I knew I'd seen that sucker somewhere before! emot-dance YOU KICK ASS. And oh yes, I think we can get something out of Persephone and Hades here. As for Orpheus, I don't recall ever having seen a statue exactly like that one, but it's the harp thingeemabob he's holding that makes me think of Orpheus. I have seen a similar statue to that one in the gardens of Versailles, but I think I ended up only taking pictures of a couple random statues by the chateau, the one of Persephone in the gazebo, and then I got distracted by the psychotic carnivarous carp in the ornamental lake. emot-mad So much for art/history appreciation on my part, really.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Well, I can't contribute much so far except a more complete Hades & Persephone.

Hades - God of the Underworld (land of the dead)
Demeter - Earth Goddess (Agriculture, Fertility)
Persephone - Demeter's daughter

Hades saw Persephone one day and became smitten.  He abducted/lured her to the Underworld, where he fed her pomegranate seeds.  The rule is, if you eat anything in the Underworld, you are trapped there forever.

Demeter was so grief-stricken that the world became blighted by an endless winter, causing the other gods intervene.

Since Persephone only ate half of the pomegranate seeds (the actual number varies), it was agreed that she would live half the year in the Underworld as Hades's wife, and half on Earth with her mother.  As iruka said, when Persephone is in the Underworld, Demeter's depression causes autumn and winter.

Given the tone of the conversation between Utena and Nanami at this stage, I think the statue would be fairly indicative of Utena's state of flux between wanting to save Anthy/wanting Akio's...er...[gives up on phrasing it politely] You could even assign each role to one of them, with Akio as Hades (suits his whole "My real name is Mephistopheles, but you can call me baby!" bit, really...oh ho ho, so who's Lucifer now? emot-biggrin), Anthy as Demeter (as the Rose Bride and the one who raises the roses in the greenhouse, she suits an earthy, sensual role like this), and Utena as Persephone. [has to go forage for more information on Persephone] Persephone's actually kind of an interesting goddess; she has the innocent aspect to her, being the woman kidnapped by the lord of the Underworld and forced to act as his queen, but she's actually somewhat dark in and or herself anyway. Hmm.

But er, yeah, this can be applied somewhat to the situation Utena finds herself in -- slipping away from Anthy to Akio turns Anthy to despair, and even though Utena does return to Anthy in the end, she has been tainted by the time she has spent with Akio. This also gives the rather disturbing implication that Utena is still bound to Akio in some fashion, and perhaps will one day meet up with him again...but then, the series does like to turn all cliches upside down and inside out.

I also like this quote I stole from the Wikipedia: The figure of Persephone is well-known today. Her story has great emotional power: an innocent maiden, a mother's grief at the abduction, and the return of her daughter. It is also cited frequently as a paradigm of myths that explain natural processes, with the descent and return of the goddess bringing about the change of seasons.

I like the last bit -- because it reminds me of how Utena fell and then rose again (in theory, anyway...), and it brought about a great change for Anthy.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Well, and I think it's possible the statue has something to do with later-day Eros (Cupid).  There's one of a childish-looking Psyche and Eros kissing, but it's not the same.  If they were satyrs, they'd most likely have goat-legs and horns (a la Pan).  Wish I could tell what they were holding.

I was thinking Bacchus at one stage because of the organic look to whatever it is they're waving around, but it's really stumping me now. [head in hands] [wails] WHY MUST THIS SHOW EAT MY BRAIN SOOOOOO?!!!!


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#17 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:14:27 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

I'll post a transcript of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter here if I can find one online, or copy out the translation I have at home.

Edit: Nevermind, here's the link.

Last edited by Yasha (12-22-2006 02:16:31 PM)


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#18 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:16:37 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

Lightice wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

I thought of Castor and Pollux too, but they tend to be depicted as warrior young men rather than as dancing toddlers.

Aren't the Gemini in astrology Castor and Pollux? And they're usually decipted as babies or toddlers...
I admit, I'm not an expert, as far as the classics go, but I've always made that association.

Good question emot-smile  When Castor and Pollux are conceived as the Gemini twins, they tend to be depicted as toddlers... but I don't know of any statuary that focused on the Gemini angle rather than the warrior angle.  Compare Google Image Search "gemini statue," which returns no relevant hits, to "castor pollux statue."

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#19 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:22:16 PM

lighthealer
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Registered: 12-21-2006
Posts: 5

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

The two young boys might very well be Romulus and Remus, from the legend of the founding of Rome. I don't think I've ever seen them depicted without the she-wolf, but they're usually depicted as being toddlers.

Last edited by lighthealer (12-22-2006 02:25:24 PM)

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#20 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:26:59 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

lighthealer wrote:

The two young boys might very well be Romulus and Remus, from the legend of the founding of Rome. They do tend to be depicted with a mother wolf, but they're usually depicted as toddlers themselves.

I couldn't find a statue of them that looked like that on Google, and I have a hunch this statue is famous; it looks so familiar.  Ditto Apollo and Artemis and Jacob and Esau.  Maybe they're not twins.  (Though they look a little like Miki and Kozue, don't they?  The hairstyles are right.)

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#21 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:34:37 PM

iruka
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Registered: 11-11-2006
Posts: 134

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

I sent the picture to a friend of mine who's an Art History sophomore and she didn't know either. Grrr.

This is getting kind of frustrating, isn't it emot-tongue

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#22 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:41:47 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

Well, maybe this is grasping at straws, but has anyone else noticed that the statues we know all have a theme in common? There's a distinct bent towards entrapment, imprisonment, or mistreatment in the statues we've named. Abused animals, the Rape of Proserpina, and Orpheus, who lost Eurydice and was eventually torn apart...

It's possible that we could find the other statues by looking more closely at that sort of theme.


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#23 | Back to Top12-22-2006 02:41:49 PM

lighthealer
New Student
Registered: 12-21-2006
Posts: 5

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

No luck on the statue but I did somehow find an interesting essay on the symmetry of the scrotum in Greek sculpture...emot-frown

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/Other … mmetry.pdf

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#24 | Back to Top12-22-2006 03:53:07 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

lighthealer wrote:

No luck on the statue but I did somehow find an interesting essay on the symmetry of the scrotum in Greek sculpture...emot-frown

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/Other … mmetry.pdf

That's a classic, that -- when you can't find the sculpture you want, go straight to the scrotum. ...or at least, the essay. school-devil Very Akio-Minded of us, really... emot-biggrin


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#25 | Back to Top12-22-2006 11:45:03 PM

Romanticide
Cow Bellhop
From: Mazatlan
Registered: 10-18-2006
Posts: 447

Re: "Her Tragedy" -- the statues and their meanings.

So I guess each statue means

Castor and Pollux = Utena and Anthy
Orpheus= Utena
Hades and Koré/Persephone= Akio and Anthy
The musiciens of Bremen]= The duelist? O.o


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