You are not logged in.

Gougai! Gougai!

GUYS GUYS I JUST UPLOADED THE 1997 UTENA MUSICAL IN HIGH DEFINITION straight from the Japanese Blu-rays! i am now very tired goodnight

Also, our Secret Santa is going on! Come join in the fun!

#26 | Back to Top09-02-2011 01:15:39 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Hiraku wrote:

2. There was never such a thing as Nemuro or the fire that killed 100 boys. Akio and Anthy just set up the illusory stage as a small experiment before putting Utena to the real test.

That's a really creepy thought -- because then you have the implication that Nemuro is a kind of artificial intelligence that developed self-awareness...and got wiped because of it. emot-gonk

I personally believe that he did exist, as did the boys; a sacrifice had to be made, I think, which Akio learned from Anthy. But a willing sacrifice and a forced one don't appear to yield the same results. After all, Akio "sacrificed" Utena via Anthy stabbing her in the back, but her sword didn't work when he took it. In fact it was only Utena herself, not her sword, who could open the gate of Dios. So...yeah. I don't know. I think the fact that the outside world didn't see the fate of the boys or Nemuro is testament to the glamour over the school. I mean, a girl turns into a cow, her brother punches out a kangaroo and people body-surf after making curry in home ec and no-one bats an eyelid. What's a Little Accident compared to that? It's all part of the process. school-eng101

Last edited by Clarice (09-02-2011 01:16:23 AM)


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

Offline

 

#27 | Back to Top09-02-2011 01:32:55 AM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Clarice wrote:

Hiraku wrote:

2. There was never such a thing as Nemuro or the fire that killed 100 boys. Akio and Anthy just set up the illusory stage as a small experiment before putting Utena to the real test.

That's a really creepy thought -- because then you have the implication that Nemuro is a kind of artificial intelligence that developed self-awareness...and got wiped because of it. emot-gonk

I personally believe that he did exist, as did the boys; a sacrifice had to be made, I think, which Akio learned from Anthy. But a willing sacrifice and a forced one don't appear to yield the same results. After all, Akio "sacrificed" Utena via Anthy stabbing her in the back, but her sword didn't work when he took it. In fact it was only Utena herself, not her sword, who could open the gate of Dios. So...yeah. I don't know. I think the fact that the outside world didn't see the fate of the boys or Nemuro is testament to the glamour over the school. I mean, a girl turns into a cow, her brother punches out a kangaroo and people body-surf after making curry in home ec and no-one bats an eyelid. What's a Little Accident compared to that? It's all part of the process. school-eng101

Dude, might the glamour theory also possibly explain Chigusa returning from being crispified in the old fencing hall and D-ko (that's what I'm calling the nameless protagonist. Either that or She of the Slippery Mambo. Your pick. emot-tongue ) existing in a bit of a closed loop-bubble for those four days she spends in Ohtori?


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

Offline

 

#28 | Back to Top09-02-2011 04:48:00 AM

Davine Lu Linvega
Spam Arsonist
Registered: 06-08-2011
Posts: 88

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

After seeing the end of the Black Rose arc, my interpretation was that Mikage didn't really kill 100 boys but he believed he did. The series implies that Ohtori is a place where reality is warped and that the school is connected to an outside world that's more like our world. I like to compare it to the town of Silent Hill from the well-known game series. If 100 people really died at the school, it would make a splash in the outside world so big that I don't think Akio's reality-warping powers could cover it up. Tokiko's return to the school, among other things, suggests that Akio has some power over the perceptions of people outside the school, but how would he cover up a hundred dead students? Make 100 families forget that their sons ever existed?

You can compare it to Silent Hill as it was in Silent Hill 2. If a few people go to Silent Hill and die, then as far as people in the outside world know, they mysteriously disappeared. Big whoop. But if a hundred people disappeared into Silent Hill, it would be impossible to ignore that some serious weirdness was going on. Same deal with the hundred dead guys. How would Akio pull that off without drawing tons of attention to his otherworld, attention of a kind he wouldn't want? Any why would he bother when the entire dueling game is an illusion he created and he can set whatever rules for it he wants? Only in Mikage's mind is the sacrifice of an entombed duelist necessary to create a Black Rose duelist. The series makes it clear that all Akio needs to fuel his dreamworld is one continuous sacrifice: Anthy's. Like Jesus in Christianity, she pays in full for all of his past, present and future sins - until she decides to climb down off the cross.

My opinion's still divided on whether Mikage was a real person at all. It's possible he was just a lingering specter of Professor Nemuro's shadow self and that Akio designed him as an anti-Utena to help propel Utena's development. Or he could have been the identity Professor Nemuro took when he returned to the school after many years. It could go either way.

Offline

 

#29 | Back to Top09-02-2011 08:57:32 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

While I also think that people didn't actually die in the fire most days, I'm not sure if the outside world theories apply so much when Akio is involved emot-tongue.  That man gets away with everything.

I also don't think it didn't actually happen since there's no indication that Tokiko in Episode 22 isn't real, and I can't think of a reason for her to show up otherwise.  I kind of think the whole point of her coming back to visit Ohtori at all is to show the viewers that it isn't all a farce, but perhaps that is just an elaborate part of Ikuhara's plot in convincing me that the Black Rose saga has any meaning at all emot-gonk.

Offline

 

#30 | Back to Top09-02-2011 09:39:00 AM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Well, in fact I think that the main purpose of Tokiko in the Episode 23 is to show us, the viewers, that Ohtori academy is not real world, or it doesn't follow the same rules, think about it, before that episode, there was no proof that Ohtori academy was "not normal". But when Tokiko appears as an old woman everything about the freezing of time and that is unveiled...

Offline

 

#31 | Back to Top09-02-2011 10:17:49 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

While this is true, I think that point is a little damaged by the fact that Tokiko is able to enter it and leave again at all.  There seems to be something more about the people themselves rather than the place.  Meanwhile, she's someone from the outside who knows about something that happened inside, and that's important too.

Offline

 

#32 | Back to Top09-02-2011 10:29:59 AM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Well... I think it's the place, Akio says:

Akio:  As long as they stay in this garden we call the Academy, a person will never become an adult

The thing is... maybe Akio can't leave that place for some reason...

Offline

 

#33 | Back to Top09-02-2011 11:41:44 AM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Yeah, but if it is the place, it only has that effect on certain people.  Unless Tokiko only thinks she's leaving and puts on makeup to make herself age.  That seems like too much to say without evidence.

I also don't consider Akio the authority on all things.  He's wrong.  A lot.

Offline

 

#34 | Back to Top09-02-2011 12:03:59 PM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

eh...... Tokiko leaves Ohtori after Nemuro's incident, so that's why she's old. But Akio and Nemuro never left, so that's why they're still young (although Akio says Nemuro has never been there...)

Offline

 

#35 | Back to Top09-02-2011 12:19:28 PM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Well, yes, but I'm saying that since Tokiko can leave and ages, the place obviously only affects certain people.  Akio cannot leave, and Mikage/Nemuro can't either.

Though there is definitely evidence that the place might have nothing to do with aging or lack of aging, considering what and who both Mikage and Akio seem to be.  So no idea.  It's pretty much left for interpretation.

Offline

 

#36 | Back to Top09-02-2011 03:02:09 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

KaleMarsh wrote:

Well, yes, but I'm saying that since Tokiko can leave and ages, the place obviously only affects certain people.  Akio cannot leave, and Mikage/Nemuro can't either.

Though there is definitely evidence that the place might have nothing to do with aging or lack of aging, considering what and who both Mikage and Akio seem to be.  So no idea.  It's pretty much left for interpretation.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your second guess.  emot-smile  The more I rewatch the series, the more I think that there's really very little that's supernatural about time in Ohtori.  We don't see any of the current revolution's characters in Mikage's flashbacks, for instance; if nothing ever changes at Ohtori, shouldn't we recognize someone?  The modern characters seem to have aged normally, with the age difference between Utena and Touga the same as it was when he stumbled across her in the church.  Ditto Tatsuya and Wakaba, even though Tatsuya hasn't gone to Ohtori for as long as Wakaba has.  People (Tatsuya, Saionji, Ruka) leave and enter the academy seemingly normally, and some students live off campus.  Nanami even goes to India.  The campus is not a sealed bubble, and time passes normally for everyone inside -- except for the archetypal beings Akio and Anthy, and for the fossilized memory Mikage.  If time seems weird at Ohtori, it's mostly because the failed revolutions are cyclical, so in a broad sense everything that is happening has happened before.  Memory, of course, does not always work normally, as the entire Black Rose Saga illustrates.

I think Akio's line about how people who stay in the academy can't become adults is rationalization.  Akio likes believing that the reason he's debased and immature is that Anthy has imprisoned him in a bubble where people can't mature, rather than because he personally has not taken responsibility for his own disintegration.  That way it's her fault, not his.  He's willfully blind to the many instances in SKU of genuine personal growth, always occurring in people other than him; I think the growth of all the other main characters gives the lie to his line.

Offline

 

#37 | Back to Top09-02-2011 04:33:13 PM

thothptah
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 01-21-2010
Posts: 97

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

satyreyes wrote:

I think Akio's line about how people who stay in the academy can't become adults is rationalization.  Akio likes believing that the reason he's debased and immature is that Anthy has imprisoned him in a bubble where people can't mature, rather than because he personally has not taken responsibility for his own disintegration.  That way it's her fault, not his.  He's willfully blind to the many instances in SKU of genuine personal growth, always occurring in people other than him; I think the growth of all the other main characters gives the lie to his line.

Incredibly insightful. I've always thought that the idea that Anthy somehow sealed Dios away is a myth. My personal canon is that it is a lie she told to the crowd outside to get them to leave him alone, but she was then accused of witchery for it. Dios blames himself for what happens to her and begins his descent into being Akio, who then shifts the blame to Anthy, buying into the myth. For me, the supreme irony in the series is that Akio's entire plan to recapture his "Dios-ness" is predicated on betrayal and the borrowing of someone else's nobility (i.e. sword), a plan that by its very method is doomed to failure. But no matter how many times he doesn't succeed, like you said, Akio doesn't seem to learn.

Offline

 

#38 | Back to Top09-02-2011 08:10:22 PM

KaleMarsh
High Tripper
From: Washington, DC
Registered: 06-13-2011
Posts: 245

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Since I tend to be more interested in Anthy's character than Akio's, I like to think that she did actually imprison him, but her reasoning changes from wanting to protect him to wanting to protect everything else from him or derive some sort of pleasure from their continued cycle of love/hate.

Though, strangely, I think you guys nail why I'm not that interested in Akio.  He doesn't change or develop so much as he becomes more tangible to the viewer, which gives him the illusion of developing.

Basically, I wanted to contribute something to your comments because they're very nice, but I don't have much emot-smile.

Last edited by KaleMarsh (09-02-2011 08:11:08 PM)

Offline

 

#39 | Back to Top09-02-2011 09:14:43 PM

dirufacade
Ballgoer
From: Baltimore & DC
Registered: 08-03-2011
Posts: 148
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

thothptah wrote:

. For me, the supreme irony in the series is that Akio's entire plan to recapture his "Dios-ness" is predicated on betrayal and the borrowing of someone else's nobility (i.e. sword), a plan that by its very method is doomed to failure. But no matter how many times he doesn't succeed, like you said, Akio doesn't seem to learn.

Then again, Akio would need to borrow someone else's nobility or "sword" since he doesn't have the Sword of Dios anymore.  Anthy does.  It's sealed it in her chest.  emot-tongue

I think the fact that the Victor (Touga, Utena and presumably Saionji) can tap into the power of Dios and use the Sword of Dios only by possessing Anthy lends some kind of credibility to the idea that there *is* something of Dios that Anthy took.  Some set of Dios's qualities had to have been removed from Akio and set inside of her for the sword to be there instead of in Akio's own chest.

I might even muse that the original Witch Anthy removed the Sword of Dios from Dios's chest, possibly in a Black Rose arc style rape-ey sequence, and placed it inside of hers -- hence why the swords, which seem to be targeted at the Prince, attack the Rose Bride instead.

tl;dr:  The Sword of Dios is inside Anthy.  Thus, Anthy sealed the Power of Dios inside of her.


~ diru

Don't talk shit. One does not hear about Abraxas by accident.

Offline

 

#40 | Back to Top09-02-2011 09:23:25 PM

thothptah
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 01-21-2010
Posts: 97

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

dirufacade wrote:

Then again, Akio would need to borrow someone else's nobility or "sword" since he doesn't have the Sword of Dios anymore.  Anthy does.  It's sealed it in her chest.  emot-tongue

Remember that Utena stops using the Sword of Dios in the Apocalypse Arc? It was always my impression that the Sword of Dios is what Akio uses in the duel called Revolution, and that that is also the sword with which Anthy stabs Utena. Utena uses her own sword in that last battle. Akio has access to the Sword of Dios, it's just useless to him because he's Akio, not Dios. (Just my opinion)

Offline

 

#41 | Back to Top09-02-2011 09:29:09 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

satyreyes wrote:

Akio likes believing that the reason he's debased and immature is that Anthy has imprisoned him in a bubble where people can't mature, rather than because he personally has not taken responsibility for his own disintegration.

thothptah wrote:

I've always thought that the idea that Anthy somehow sealed Dios away is a myth. My personal canon is that it is a lie she told to the crowd outside to get them to leave him alone, but she was then accused of witchery for it. Dios blames himself for what happens to her and begins his descent into being Akio, who then shifts the blame to Anthy, buying into the myth.

dirufacade wrote:

I think the fact that the Victor (Touga, Utena and presumably Saionji) can tap into the power of Dios and use the Sword of Dios only by possessing Anthy lends some kind of credibility to the idea that there *is* something of Dios that Anthy took.  Some set of Dios's qualities had to have been removed from Akio and set inside of her for the sword to be there instead of in Akio's own chest.

Oh, yeah, I never meant to imply that Anthy didn't do anything to Dios.  She did imprison him, out of a mix of selfish motives (she wanted to keep him to herself) and concerned ones (she didn't want him to kill himself fighting other people's monsters).  But I don't think she can have literally sealed away his nobility, because that cuts against the most basic theme of Anthy's story, which is that people are redeemable.  The idea that Akio is absolved of his evil because Anthy "drove him to it" is the logic of the abuser, and it's not something SKU would endorse; in fact, what makes Utena different from Dios/Akio is that she keeps trying to do the right thing even after Anthy stabs her in the back.  So Anthy can't have sealed away Dios's nobility.  Dios lost that all by his own damn self out of anger and bitterness over Anthy's betrayal of him, and Akio's failure to get it back is his own damn fault.  That's what I meant.  If the Sword of Dios truly does emblemize Dios's lost nobility, it's not inside Anthy because Anthy stole it; it's there because Akio projected its loss onto her -- and because she accepted that projection.

Last edited by satyreyes (09-02-2011 09:31:31 PM)

Offline

 

#42 | Back to Top09-03-2011 03:17:40 AM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

tothptah wrote:

Remember that Utena stops using the Sword of Dios in the Apocalypse Arc? It was always my impression that the Sword of Dios is what Akio uses in the duel called Revolution, and that that is also the sword with which Anthy stabs Utena. Utena uses her own sword in that last battle. Akio has access to the Sword of Dios, it's just useless to him because he's Akio, not Dios. (Just my opinion)

Excuse me?


http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16522-1/Series_ep39_012.jpg
http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16524-1/Series_ep39_013.jpg
http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16528-1/Series_ep39_015.jpg

Last edited by Leeg (09-03-2011 03:18:52 AM)

Offline

 

#43 | Back to Top09-03-2011 05:38:56 AM

thothptah
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 01-21-2010
Posts: 97

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

So do you think that the sword Anthy draws from Utena is also/still the Sword of Dios? It's something I never considered. I guess I also assumed that the palette-swap on the sword Akio/Anthy uses is just so we can tell the swords apart. I could be completely wrong. ::shrug::

Offline

 

#44 | Back to Top09-03-2011 06:17:57 AM

Leeg
Juri Jeerer
From: Spain
Registered: 02-10-2010
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Well... I believe it works this way:


Anthy (who has sealed the power of Dios) has the sword of Dios till Episode 25, here the power of Dios is unleashed and it warps to Utena's body. At the end, the sword Akio draws from Anthy is the sword which is left in her body, the sword of the witch (since the sword of Dios is now inside Utena).

In fact, during the sacrifice sequence, the sword of the witch is shown:


http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/16654-1/Series_ep39_078.jpg

Last edited by Leeg (09-03-2011 06:22:23 AM)

Offline

 

#45 | Back to Top09-03-2011 03:04:12 PM

thothptah
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 01-21-2010
Posts: 97

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

I can see what your saying, but it's still my opinion that that is the Sword of Dios. It seems to make even more sense to me that it is the Sword of Dios itself which first transfixes Anthy and holds her still for the sacrifice (awful, awful irony). I also prefer to think that the point of the Dueling game is to refine, in some way, the "sword" of those who participate, and that by taking the sword from Utena, Akio is literally borrowing her nobility/princeliness in some way. I'm also uncomfortable with positing a "sword of the witch," but I totally see where you are coming from.

Offline

 

#46 | Back to Top09-03-2011 03:13:37 PM

wblstudios
Banned
Registered: 08-17-2011
Posts: 564

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but I did write a whole four-page wrap about this thing and got no replies to it.  Just scroll around.

Offline

 

#47 | Back to Top09-03-2011 03:29:43 PM

thothptah
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 01-21-2010
Posts: 97

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

wblstudios wrote:

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but I did write a whole four-page wrap about this thing and got no replies to it.  Just scroll around.

::shuffles off to read:: We're getting a bit off topic for this thread anyway emot-smile

Offline

 

#48 | Back to Top10-02-2011 12:36:48 AM

SaionjixAnthy
Mikage Mistruster
From: dueling arena
Registered: 10-01-2011
Posts: 64
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

satyreyes wrote:

I think Akio's line about how people who stay in the academy can't become adults is rationalization.  Akio likes believing that the reason he's debased and immature is that Anthy has imprisoned him in a bubble where people can't mature, rather than because he personally has not taken responsibility for his own disintegration.  That way it's her fault, not his.  He's willfully blind to the many instances in SKU of genuine personal growth, always occurring in people other than him; I think the growth of all the other main characters gives the lie to his line.

Ikuhara wanted to portray a psychopath when he created Akio. Akio lies WHENEVER it would put him at risk, and many times when it wouldn't. He's pure evil. (Akio, not Ikuhara school-eng101)


"The bells signal the start of the duel, Anthy! You forget yourself."

Offline

 

#49 | Back to Top02-10-2014 10:14:39 PM

Torchic91
New Student
Registered: 10-06-2013
Posts: 2

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

My reactions:
1) That's really cool how each coffin corresponds to each duelist!
2) GAHHH IT'S SO CREEPY TAKE IT AWAY~!


But I really, really want to thank you / For dancing 'til the end / You found a way to break out / You're not afraid to break out / But I need to know, if the world says it's time to go / Tell me, will you freak out?

Offline

 

#50 | Back to Top02-10-2014 10:46:06 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6020
Website

Re: Coffins in the remastered edition...

It seems like a lot of people didn't like the corpses in the coffins. I actually liked them, I don't mind at all that the corpses resembled the Duelist. I took that in a symbolic sense rather than a literal one-- the corpses are the Black Rose Duelists, the side of them that they repress, the side that came out in the duel. The side that Mikage manipulated and used-- his "fossil fuel." The fact that Mikage burns them seemed to me to represent that there was no more of that "fuel" left in those people, even if the feelings remained.


Edit: on a second look, that seems so simplistic and self-evident. OH WELL emot-keke


Hat Mafia Member: Ratchedface
Je vais mourir pour l ' a e s t h e t i q u e
Internet Atrocity Tourist             -           MY POSTS             ARE WARSHIPS

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB 1.2.23
© Copyright 2002–2008 PunBB
Forum styled and maintained by Giovanna and Yasha
Return to Empty Movement