You are not logged in.

Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top12-16-2006 11:44:04 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Lucky Number Seven... :)

This is basically the very rough draft of a little something something I've been working on. Please discuss, because I am SO STUCK on cleaning and finalizing this. It's very long; I'm sorry. emot-gonk emot-gonk


So, in doing research for something else I looked up the technical definitions for The Seven Deadly Sins –while, of course, I had some Seazer on. This naturally got me to thinking and I was pretty surprised when I looked up some of the correlations and SKU parallels just started flowing naturally –although I shouldn’t have been. So, for the uninitiated:

The Seven Deadly Sins
Sloth -Sadness and Apathy
Greed–Treachery and Covetousness
Envy –Jealousy and Malice
Wrath –Anger and Ire
Gluttony –Waste and Overindulgence
Lust– Fornication and Perversion (everyone’s favorite!)
Pride-Vanity and Narcissism

While all of the duels in the series can be categorized in some ways as representative of the Sins, as well as most of the duelist’s reasons (Ruka is the only duelist with anything resembling altruistic motivations, and even then, they’re questionable) there are really seven characters that I feel are in line with each of the sins, and to most they are the most important characters in Utena’s growth: The Seitokai, Akio (of course) and Anthy. In writing this essay, I’ve given a lot of deliberation towards including Mikage, and have ultimately decided that the Black Rose Duelists, while some of the most identifiable, aren’t to be included. My reasons for this are that Akio and Anthy are the only ones that know and remember the Black Rose Duels, and any growth that Utena may have made would have been undone by her lack of memory in this instance. It’s really arguable whether she experienced any growth as Utena, though reasonably bright, just isn’t intuitive enough to have ever understood the point of the Black Rose Duels.*
    I’ve included the traditional punishments in Hell for each sin, as well as Dante’s version of the Terraces of Purgatory where sufferers of the Sins were recuperated.

Miki –Sloth
Miki’s is the least obvious when looking for a sin, but it’s there none the less. He is generally the “good guy.” His reasons for dueling, while self-delusional, aren’t really bad, certainly not when compared to, say Touga or Saionji, but at the same time, he is as unhealthy as the rest of Ohtori –it’s just not as obvious. Sloth is generally defined as sadness and apathy. On the surface, only sadness seems to apply, but apathy does just as much, once we begin to look a little closer. The sadness is obvious. He misses Kozue, and the closeness they once shared, although not the obvious incest. Loosing a twin is often described as loosing a part of oneself, and there’s no denying that there’s a bond there, something untouchable and indefinable. After all, mythology is full of stories about twins with bonds –and oftentimes, homicidal intent.
The apathy is evident; it just takes a little more looking to find it. The biggest indicator is his absolute lack of interest in grades or schooling. Sure, he takes college classes, but how interested in it is he? Whenever he helps Utena or Anthy with their homework, it’s perfunctory. He can do it, but he doesn’t really have any pride in it. There’s no concern. He does what he has to do, but doesn’t really invest himself in anything. It’s a minor form of apathy, but it’s there. Miki seems to wear his heart on his sleeves –he is the youngest of the duelists, after all, with the least amount of true experience- but at the same time, there’s a hardness to him, a shell that he doesn’t really allow others to crack. Only Kozue, the closest a person has ever been to him. He truly doesn’t care about anything other then his Shining Thing –which is a replacement for Kozue anyway.
The traditional punishment in Hell is to be tossed into a pit full of venomous vipers for an eternity. Dante wrote that the only way this sin could be purged in life was by running, and pursuing activity.

    Juri -Greed/Avarice 
Greed is an interesting sin, and one that’s a bit difficult to classify as it tends to overlap into the territory of several sins. If it’s an unhealthy desire for food or drink, it’s generally termed Gluttony. When it’s a desire for another’s attributes, it becomes Envy. Greed is by and large, the desire of material objects to better one’s position or increase wealth, or a reflection of flawed properties. While it’s true that Juri does work as a model and have an interest in designer clothes, it’s never stated or implied that that interest is an unhealthy desire. However, if we extend the definition of a material thing to being a person, Juri certainly qualifies as desiring something out of proportion to what it’s truly worth.
Juri’s defining characteristic in Greed is probably just that, covetousness. She covets Shiori, even though she believes she can never have her. She wants Shiori; even though she knows it’s not healthy. She says that she wants to be rid of her affection to her, the love she feels. She says this, but still she wants. She. Covets.
Greed is also identified with treachery, and there’s certainly some present in that relationship –and not just from Shiori. Juri is in love with Shiori, and while she seems to do a good job of concealing her lesbianism to the rest of Ohtori, (at least in the beginning), it’s fairly obvious to the viewer. Treachery is defined as the breaking or violation of an assumed social contract. In seeing Shiori as more then a friend, it’s entirely possible that Juri may feel she’s overstepping her bounds as a friend, especially when we take into account that she was supposedly the protector in their relationship. Interestingly enough, Juri’s view of their friendship, other then her love for Shiori, is never explored. The viewer is given Shiori’s versions of their early acquaintance, but never what Juri thought of Shiori before falling in love with her. Does Juri feel sickened by her attraction to another woman? Does she feel that it’s unnatural, or that she’s breaking Shiori’s confidences by seeing her as an object of love, and probably even lust? Although we know how she feels about Shiori, we’re never given the peek into Juri’s soul to know how she truly feels about her feelings towards Shiori.
If she feels that she somehow betrayed Shiori, then it’s an even stronger argument towards Juri’s representative sin being Greed. Although, even if she doesn’t, she’s still a covetous person, and still full of Greed.
The traditional punishment in Hell is to be boiled in oil for eternity. Dante wrote that practitioners of this laid face down on the ground and contemplated God, turning their focus from things, to the greatness of God.

Envy – Nanami
Envy is Jealousy and Malice. Nanami is jealous of anyone that takes Touga’s attentions away from her. Her worldview is built on the belief that she is better then every other woman in the world- because she knows that she’s the only one who will always have Touga’s attentions. We see what happens when that delusion, like so many others in Ohtori, is stripped away; her view is shot, and she sees how shaky the ground she stands on truly is. She’s really no better then anyone else, because her increased status comes from her association, something that can be stripped away, as Touga does to her in Ep. 31 (Her Tragedy). Not only is she jealous and deeply protective of her brother’s interest, she’s just as jealous of his standing. Nanami knows deep down that her status as a “Queen B” is totally reliant on her being Touga’s little sister.
    That knowledge (and her jealousy) is the root of her malice towards anyone who comes near him and might cause his status (and thusly hers) to move downwards. Touga is perfect, and therefore she can’t unleash that resentment at him. But his groupies?  Sure, why not? After all, they’re certainly not perfect. Even upperclassmen –like Anthy- are subject to her abuses. The only ones that seem exempt are The Seitokai, and that’s probably no small amount of intimidation on the part of Juri. She knows that they can’t affect her brother’s standing, and so she has something resembling a truce with them.
    Another quality of Envy (in the malicious vein) is the sinful joy of having watched others fall low. Nanami definitely likes to make others fall from positions of greatness when she can accomplish it, or even more easily, to remove something of joy to another person. Even if it’s something as simple as keeping Keiko from attending her party so that she can keep her from seeing Touga, the greatest –and only perk- to her subservience to Nanami. There’s even a word for it in German –schadenfreude (literally, shameful joy).
    The traditional punishment for Envy is to swim through frozen water for an eternity, although Dante chose to describe it as having their eyes sewn shut with wire, referring to the last definition of the sin.

    Wrath –Saionji
Wrath is anger, hatred, ire. These are the most basic definitions of Wrath. There’s also the denial of truth to self and others; one of the minor sins of Wrath is assault. Just by these few words alone we can say that Wrath is probably a good fit for Saionji. He’s certainly angry. He’s definitely full of some hatred and loathing. He’s pretty darn guilty of assault. Perhaps most tellingly, though, is Dante’s definition of Wrath:
    “Love of justice perverted to revenge and spite.”
It’s easy to see Saionji as having, at one point in his life, been a very fair person. In the flashbacks we see of him as a child he’s beguilingly innocent. Innocence often has connotations of fair, and even in his most extremes, he’s a tit for tat kind of person. For every jibe that Touga delivers, he gives one back –perhaps with less sophistication, but it’s there nonetheless. His love of fairness is so far gone that he resorts to childish insults –just so that things are even between them.
    Saionji, more then any other member of the Seitokai, understands the nature of the duels. His intuitive nature also leads him to understand just how pointless it is to try and resist Ends of the World. He knows that the Chairman will get what he wants, whenever he wants, however he wants it. Saionji, while certainly willing to play the game at first, seems to understand the stakes before anyone else does. Or at least, to have a better grasp of what’s going on then, say, Juri or Miki. But even though he’s so perceptive, he allows himself to be manipulated, and fairly easily, too, because his anger and resentment at everyone has blinded himself to his own shortcomings.
    The traditional punishment for Wrath is to be dismembered alive, although according to Dante, sufferers of Wrath walk through acrid smoke in order to learn how wrath has blinded their judgment.

Gluttony – Touga
Gluttony is defined as Waste and Overindulgence, primarily in food. Early Church leaders chose to include anticipation of a meal in gluttony, thus extending it’s definition to include costly foods or delicacies. It’s very easy to see Touga eating only the finest foods. I choose to also use the definition of Gluttony as overindulgence in general, something Touga certainly does in spades.
    Touga can almost be defined by the things he wastes, or ruins. He wastes the (empty) affections his groupies heap on him. He wastes the (genuine) affection that Nanami, and at one point, Saionji heap on him. With one real exception, he wastes his opportunities to manipulate Utena. His problem is with the first half of the sin –Overindulgence. He has always had more then he knows what to do with. So what if he wastes it? He’s got more of it; he will always have more of it.
It’s easy to dismiss Touga as a rich playboy when you take this view of him, but he’s more calculating then a lot of fandom really gives him credit for. His problem though, isn’t a lack of ambition; it’s a lack of understanding and care that comes with having to work with the bare minimum. A proponent of the Touga-as-Akio’s-protégé theory might say that this is something that Akio is trying to teach him about, in order for him to become the next chairman. But really, if Akio wanted Touga to learn something, he’s probably have drilled it into him at least by the time the Akio arc duels roll around.
Also, this is something that Akio could exploit for his own advancement. Touga is used to having a lot of room for error in his smaller machinations, while Akio’s are on a scale unseen in…well, the world, quite frankly. Akio has no margin for error. Using Touga’s penchant for overindulgence against him is a great advantage in cultivating the initial illusion he presents for Utena. By allowing Utena to indirectly compare him to Touga, he can only come out on top. Touga is overindulgent, while Akio limits himself –seeming Spartan, more adult.
The traditional punishment in Hell is to be fed garbage for eternity. Dante describes the soul as abstaining from food or drink and, in order to sharpen the pangs of hunger, being forced to pass cool clean water without stopping to drink.


Lust- Akio
Lust is such a perfect match for Akio, it barely even needs to be qualified.
Interestingly enough, the original sin was extravagance, before modernization sometime in the late 1600’s, as near as I’ve been able to tell (Personally, I think it was more along the lines of the rising of the codes of courtly love, and knight’s chivalry and all that jazz, but I’ve not been able to find any reliable source for that.) The original Latin for lust was luxuria, from which we derive the word luxurious. Again, another word perfectly suited to the cognac swilling chairman.
    Just to be thorough, lust is generally described as an unwholesome appetite for sex and sexual perversions. Akio indulges on homosexuality, adultery, incest, statutory rape (which is more of a legal concern, but what the hell. We’ll toss it in), not to mention his general promiscuity.
    Lust is considered a sin because it detracts from the adoration and love given to God. Dante allowed the penitent to walk within flames to purge himself from lustful thoughts, while the traditional hell for the lustful is to be smothered with fire and brimstone.

Pride –Anthy
When glancing through the sins, Anthy doesn’t seem to fit any of them very well, and Pride seems almost like a throwaway, a bone to give her. But on more thought, it seems to be something that fits rather well. Pride is an excess of belief in one’s own superiority, oftentimes unfounded. While Anthy as the Rose Bride might be considered lesser, as displayed by the Seitokai’s treatment of her, Anthy as the Witch is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and superiority is, in this case, justified.
Anthy does not fraternize with anybody. She is no one’s friend until Utena comes along, and it takes her a great deal of time to warm up to the pink haired would-be prince. Anthy has never held anyone to be on her level, and why should she? Utena is just another potential prince in Akio’s dueling game, and everyone else is beneath her. She has a lot to have a determined kind of pride in. She stole Dios from everyone and she takes the million swords. Two very powerful things, two things that not many could’ve done.
So her pride, while more then a little malicious in nature, is justified. However, one of the most telling is the origins of the sin itself, and why it is a sin. Pride was what caused Lucifer to fall from Heaven, and began his transformation to Satan. Anthy is directly responsible for Dios’ “fall” into Akio. She takes him, for whatever reason, for whatever justification she has. She removes Dios, and basically creates Akio (in a way, she’s almost a mother to him, which makes the incest just that much…incestier).
Dante claimed that the penitent were forced to walk with their heads bowed as they were whipped mercilessly in order to produce feelings of humility. However, possibly the most intriguing, is that the punishment in hell for Pride is to be broken on the wheel. This seems so appropriate, that it’s what really pushed the argument for Anthy. Anthy is punished for her treachery to Utena, which stemmed from her pride, her belief that no one was on the level she and Akio were on. That was her last great moment of the sin, her belief that no one could be the Prince she thought she wanted. When Utena opens the door to that coffin, she opens the door to everything that Anthy had sealed away. Not just the better part of her, but the part of her that is human. The part of her that wants to experience things on a different level –Utena’s. The level that is human, not so exalted as the Witch, nor so low as the Rose Bride. The wheel of Revolution has turned, and Anthy is broken by it, finally.



*I do, however feel that many of the Black Rose Duels can be considered an excess/perversion of the Seven Heavenly Virtues. Tsuwabaki is full of  Zeal, Shiori, Admiration; Kanae, Meekness or Composure; Wakaba, Humility, etc., all. I don’t have everything in front of me, so I can’t make any accurate claims.

Edited for some spelling errors, as well as ShatteredMirror's suggestion. emot-keke

Last edited by morosemocha (12-17-2006 02:04:52 AM)


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

Offline

 

#2 | Back to Top12-17-2006 12:46:49 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Ooh, this was neat. Sin interests me. Interests me a lot. I've also seen Greed translated as Avarice, which I think might suit it a bit more as a name since it suggests the covetousness aspect of the sin more than "greed" does, but that's splitting hairs. This was very interesting and food for thought, and I'd be interested in reading about the Black Rose duels and the Seven Heavenly Virtues or at least the ones that apply to the duels.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

#3 | Back to Top12-17-2006 12:52:18 AM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Originally, I was going to use the latin phrases, but I decided against it. And yeah, I hope there's more along the lines of these two essays. Sin, Virtue, and the Dichotomy of the two is one of my favorite things. Also, Dichotomy  is one of the best words ever. I have about fifteen pages of notes, 'cause this graveyard thing can get a bit boring. When I dig them up again, I'll post.

Edit: Especially since I'm at work, and can't read IFD emot-frown

Last edited by morosemocha (12-17-2006 12:53:26 AM)


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

Offline

 

#4 | Back to Top12-17-2006 01:10:56 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Dichotomy is indeed an excellent word, and I'm sorry you're at work. Though I envy you for your ability to go online during work, because I can't do that.

What are the seven virtues, anyway? I know the sins, but not the virtues. Tells you something about me, I suppose.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

#5 | Back to Top12-17-2006 01:19:12 AM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

They correspond to the sins, actually. I had to look up the virtues, because I never remember them myself... emot-redface

Lust is checked by Chastity
Gluttony by Temperance
Greed/Avarice by Charity
Sloth by Zeal
Wrath by Meekness
Envy by Kindness
Pride by Humility.

The problem with trying to correlate the duels, is that I'm short by one, unless maybe you include Tatsuya? It's Kanae, Shirori, Kozue, Tsuwabaki, Keiko and Wakaba.

Well, maybe you could include Mikage...?


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

Offline

 

#6 | Back to Top12-17-2006 01:56:55 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

morosemocha wrote:

Also, this is something that Akio could exploit for his own advancement. Touga is used to having a lot of room for error in his smaller machinations, while Akio’s are on a scale unseen in…well, the world, quite frankly. Akio has no margin for error. Using Touga’s penchant for overindulgence against him is a great advantage in cultivating the initial illusion he presents for Utena. By allowing Utena to indirectly compare him to Touga, he can only come out on top. Touga is overindulgent, while Akio limits himself –seeming Spartan, more adult.

Oh. Ooooooooh, I like this. cool I tend to run a lot with the whole way Akio uses Touga to kinda prep Utena for his own seduction, but that's an angle of it I hadn't thought of!

I like all of this, definitely. I've thought this out before and I really love where you went with it. You found the quote that makes Saionji as wrath completely perfect. The seven sins are a cool beans way of springing off into analysis. I admit with some guilt my version is a mostly finished essay applying all of them to Akio. Naughty boy, that one.

Anthy as pride is definitely awesome, we seem to agree on her character! (No one ever does that, wow!) My kneejerk was actually to name Saionji as pride, I think the argument there could be made, or at least on the very surface. It's his shell that's prideful.

And...I always thought in the analysis that gluttony and lust were kinda the same idea, or that there was a lot of overlap between the two sins. Indulgence and perversion seem so often to combine; they happen in the same places and can look similar. It isn't at all surprising that Akio and Touga would take sins that are so close to each other in spirit. After all Touga strives to be more like Akio, and Akio in his eyes is both a creature of lust and indulgence and he desires to be that. Then Akio turns around and uses the behavior inspired by the same spirit against him.

I'd even make the point that badness in the eyes of god aside, practically speaking, the sin of gluttony tends not to be what burns a person that's overindulgent and wasteful. It's that the more you indulge, the more it takes to satisfy, and that in matters of lust especially, eventually more sex isn't the answer. You start having to warp and pervert it, so that the sin of gluttony (excess) has led to the sin of lust (perversion). An amusing note to make when you consider how much Touga wants to be like Akio. Maybe he's on the right path.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

Offline

 

#7 | Back to Top12-17-2006 02:05:32 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Perhaps you could include Ruka? His whole situation was a perversion of Charity if I ever saw one. But I can't really put virtues to duellists the way we could the sins. We could take the corresponding duellists and pair them with the corresponding virtues, giving us this...

Chastity - Kanae
Temperance - Keiko
Charity - Shiori
Zeal - Kozue
Meekness - Wakaba
Kindness - Tsuwabuki
Humility - Mikage?

Or if you chose Ruka for that last slot since he really doesn't have another position, it could go something like this...

Chastity - Kanae
Temperance - Kozue
Charity - Ruka
Zeal - Tsuwabuki
Meekness - Keiko
Kindness - Shiori
Humility - Wakaba

I don't know. It's late and I'm tired.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

#8 | Back to Top12-17-2006 02:11:25 AM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Ruka as Charity was actually what got me to thinking about the other duelists in terms of the virtues. You get a cookie for brainreading! school-chef


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

Offline

 

#9 | Back to Top12-17-2006 02:25:03 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Cookie? Yay, cookies! I love cookies!


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

#10 | Back to Top12-17-2006 10:21:48 AM

SexingTouga24/7/365
is on a BOAT!
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 2267

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

school-eng101 Intersting...very intersting...however if this is a system where all of the duelist balance each other somehow then were does one put the left over people? just a thought and good idea by the way emot-biggrin

Last edited by SexingTouga24/7/365 (12-17-2006 10:22:04 AM)


"If all the world is a stage and all the people players"...then I demand a less shitty part or the ability to get off of the stage. Slowly my sanity slides, slipping, swirling, spiraling...Save Me I need Sleep...Shattering Soon. school-devil "RukaxTouga equals the Fourth of July" MY patriotic celebration...FUCK ME TOUGA AND RUKA NOW!! etc-wankgirl etc-wankdude

Offline

 

#11 | Back to Top12-17-2006 02:39:18 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Strange, I was thinking of something very similar to this yesterday!

(Only in reference to using the seven sins as basis for the duellists in the would-be forum RP, not applying them to the series directly.)

If my brain wasn't currently trying to exit my cranium I'd try to post something useful.

[edit] - I still don't have anything useful to contribute, aside from that this is a very interesting read.

Apologetically, I feel compelled to note the Lucifer/Satan deal. I know that at this point, Lucifer is culturally another name for the devil, but it's not supposed to be. Again, I just can't see it without mentioning this.

Last edited by Ragnarok (12-17-2006 08:07:17 PM)


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#12 | Back to Top12-18-2006 12:03:34 AM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Ragnarok wrote:

Apologetically, I feel compelled to note the Lucifer/Satan deal. I know that at this point, Lucifer is culturally another name for the devil, but it's not supposed to be. Again, I just can't see it without mentioning this.

Yeah, I know. The downside of being best friends with a theology major is the constant droning about gods and angels and blah blah blah. I zone. I'm an awful friend. It seems to be something that's colloquially accepted, so I decided to include it, although I have my own misgivings about that. Mostly, I mention it because of Akio's I-Am-Lucifer dealie-yo.

Total aside, the Binsfield classification, which assigns demons/princes of hell to each of the sins says:

Lucifer: Pride
Mammon: Greed
Asmodeus: Lust
Leviathan: Envy
Beelzebub: Gluttony
Satan: Wrath
Belphegor: Sloth

I've been considering doing some research on the demons, but I think that might be getting a bit too esoteric, even for SKU.

Giovanna wrote:

I'd even make the point that badness in the eyes of god aside, practically speaking, the sin of gluttony tends not to be what burns a person that's overindulgent and wasteful. It's that the more you indulge, the more it takes to satisfy, and that in matters of lust especially, eventually more sex isn't the answer. You start having to warp and pervert it, so that the sin of gluttony (excess) has led to the sin of lust (perversion). An amusing note to make when you consider how much Touga wants to be like Akio. Maybe he's on the right path.

Oh my god. Gio, I love you. Seriously. Babies. You. Me. Make.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Chastity - Kanae
Temperance - Kozue
Charity - Ruka
Zeal - Tsuwabuki
Meekness - Keiko
Kindness - Shiori
Humility - Wakaba

Damn. I think you hit exactly what I was trying to think out. Even more cookies to you!

SexingTouga24/7/365  wrote:

Intersting...very intersting...however if this is a system where all of the duelist balance each other somehow then were does one put the left over people? just a thought and good idea by the way

...what...left over people? Like...Yuko and Aiko? Or the SPG?


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

Offline

 

#13 | Back to Top12-18-2006 12:13:49 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Cookies? Cookies! emot-dance

I find it amusing that I'm at my most profound when I'm incredibly tired. I'm glad I could be of help.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

#14 | Back to Top12-18-2006 03:01:26 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

morosemocha wrote:

Total aside, the Binsfield classification, which assigns demons/princes of hell to each of the sins says:

Lucifer: Pride
Mammon: Greed
Asmodeus: Lust
Leviathan: Envy
Beelzebub: Gluttony
Satan: Wrath
Belphegor: Sloth

I've been considering doing some research on the demons, but I think that might be getting a bit too esoteric, even for SKU.

Mm, that's the same correlation used in a book I have. A Field Guide to Demons, Fairies, Fallen Angels, and Other Subversive Spirits. It's an interesting read but I take everything in it with a grain of salt. And what I find strange in this case is almost all of these are the devil with different names. In this case Lucifer is the one equated with Satan. Asmodeus started out Persian, was incorporated into Jewish lore and then in Christian lore gets associated with Sammael, who is usually Satan as well. Also Mammon has been believed to be another name for Beelzebub (on occasion) who is also sometimes considered another form of Satan.

Not that I'm a theology major myself! emot-smile It just seems to me that any fallen angel/evil spirit/what-have-you gets associated as another facet of the devil if it sticks around long enough.

I also know I saw a slightly different list of demons/fallen angels for the seven deadly sins, but I can't find it at the moment. I think it associate Lilith with Lust, but... that's all I remember.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#15 | Back to Top12-18-2006 03:12:00 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

The Binsfield Classification comes from a book written in like...1569...After that, I'm downhill. I could wiki it, but I gotta get ready for work soon.

I was under the impression that the Hierarchy of Hell (if such a thing there really is) had Lucifer, the Adversary, at the top, followed by the Princes, who were Asmodeus and Beelzebub. Pride is considered the sin that leads to all others, so it would make sense that it's the one chiefly responsible for creating Hell (this is making sense to me, I'm sorry if it's unclear), but in an analysis sense, that would make it a little more suitable for Akio. Really, though, I wonder who you could say falls farther? Akio or Anthy?

Isn't Lucifer the name of the Angel that falls, though? And for some reason I'm thinking that Satan was just an ancient word for darkness, or, again, adversary that eventually just became associated with Lucifer, because, hey, darkness and adversarial. I know I read that somewhere, I'm just not sure where.


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

Offline

 

#16 | Back to Top12-18-2006 05:52:13 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Yeah, Satan comes from an old Hebrew word for adversary. And if I recall correctly Lucifer translates as "light-bringer." So yeah, Lucifer would have been the name of the angel before he fell... I dunno. There are too many texts that I haven't read yet.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

#17 | Back to Top12-18-2006 09:15:19 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

I know someone else posted a link in an earlier thread about the specific explanation for the mistranslation that equated Lucifer to Satan, but the basics is that it was a mistranslated metaphor. A king who claimed he would surpass God and such is punished for his pride/ambition and is likened to a fallen morning star. Lucifer is the angel of the morning star and so his name was applied to the verse, which was then written as such that it applied to Lucifer himself instead of the king.

From A Dictionary of Angels compiled by Gustav Davidson:

Lucifer ("light giver")-erroneously equated with the fallen angel (Satan) due to a misreading of Isaiah 14:12: "How are thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning," an apostrophe which applied to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (but see under Satan). It should be pointed out that the authors of the books of the Old Testament knew nothing of fallen or evil angels, and do not mention them, although, at times, as in Job 4:18, the Lord "put no trust" in his angels and "charged them with folly," which would indicate that angels were not all that they should be. The name Lucifer was applied to Satan by St. Jerome and other Church Fathers. Milton in Paradise Lost applied the name to the demon of sinful pride. Lucifer is the title and principal character of the epic poem by the Dutch Shakespeare, Vondel (who uses Lucifer in lieu of Satan), and a principal character in the mystery play by Imre Madach, The Tragedy of Man. Blake pictured Lucifer in his illustrations to Dante. George Meredith's sonnet "Lucifer in Starlight" addresses the "fiend" as Prince Lucifer. Actually, Lucifer connotes a star, and applies (or originally meant to apply) to the morning or evening star (Venus). To Spenser in "An Hymne of Heavenly Love," Lucifer is "the brightest angel, even the Child of Light."

Which I'm sure is more than you wanted to know. emot-wink

In regards to what I mentioned earlier about other entities being applied to the seven deadly sins, I have to assume I misremembered because I can't find anything about it now. I think I must have confused it with the holy and unholy sefiroth. (Basically ten archangels stand for ten good things and there is a balancing of ten fallen/evil angels to counter them.)


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#18 | Back to Top12-18-2006 09:39:42 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

That was actually very interesting and explains a few things. Of course, now I just want to know more. Hehe.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

#19 | Back to Top12-18-2006 10:21:52 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

morosemocha wrote:

I was under the impression that the Hierarchy of Hell (if such a thing there really is) had Lucifer, the Adversary, at the top, followed by the Princes, who were Asmodeus and Beelzebub. Pride is considered the sin that leads to all others, so it would make sense that it's the one chiefly responsible for creating Hell (this is making sense to me, I'm sorry if it's unclear), but in an analysis sense, that would make it a little more suitable for Akio. Really, though, I wonder who you could say falls farther? Akio or Anthy?

There's something like that here: http://www.heart7.net/spirit/top.html

I've had the site bookmarked for a while but I didn't poke around it much, there's broken links and such which dissuades me.

In regards to who fell farther, it's hard to call. Assuming Dios and Anthy were equals I'd lean towards them both falling the same 'distance,' perhaps in slightly different directions. But Dios is the one that everyone (in the flashback) cares about, indicating he was more important than Anthy, even if it was only from the perspective of those masses. In that case Akio has had farther to fall. Plus Anthy does gain redemption in the end, which Akio seems more likely to reject. He doesn't feel he needs saving, nor does he have a desire for it. He (arguably) believes he can regain everything he lost without changing his 'fallen' mindset.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

That was actually very interesting and explains a few things. Of course, now I just want to know more. Hehe.

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=126 school-eng101


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

Offline

 

#20 | Back to Top12-18-2006 10:27:25 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Lucky Number Seven... :)

Ooh, most excellent. Thanks.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB 1.2.23
© Copyright 2002–2008 PunBB
Forum styled and maintained by Giovanna and Yasha
Return to Empty Movement