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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top12-16-2006 12:40:05 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

The Views on Kozue

Next to Shiori, Kozue is my favorite character. Despite that, I can’t recall ever hearing an outside opinion on her.

Kozue and Nanami’s situations are very similar. They both have older brothers that are so amazing that all other boys become a waste of time. But if their situations are so much alike, why was there such a drastic difference in the outcome? Why is it that Nanami handles her feelings for her older brother by clinging to him, whereas Kozue distances herself from her brother and tries to get his attention by making him worry? The major difference, (ignoring all the other differences that don't help the point I'm trying to make,) is that Nanami and Touga are brother and sister, whereas Kozue and Miki are twins.

“So you two were brother and sister prodigies?” People tend to assume that twins do everything equally well, and so from the moment she was born, Kozue was given expectations that were impossible for her to live up to. She probably had to deal with people who assumed that she was a genius, on the student council, and one of Ohtori Academy’s star students all her life, as well as having to listen to that annoying tone of disappointment whenever she corrected them. (The movies lied to us!)

The only time that she was ever able to shine was when she played the piano with her brother, creating the illusion that the two of them were truly equals. Without her brother’s light, she couldn’t shine on her own, so she was unable to perform at the concert by herself. At this point, she became more aware of the fact that she could never shine on her own, and so she no longer wanted to be dependant on that light.

Kozue is a classic example of a child acting up to get attention the only way she knows how. Because she cannot gain the positive attention that she would receive from her brother by playing the piano and being a good girl, she seeks negative attention instead. She sees dating boys that her brother disapproves of and making him worry as the only way she can get his attention.

Miki also seems to live under the illusion that his twin sister should be exactly like he is. “You really like the name Chuu-Chuu, Himemiya-san?” “Yes, I do.” “Well, I like it, too! *Blushes* We have similar tastes.” Miki sees Anthy as his ideal sister, because she is (supposedly) nice, sweet, and plays the piano well, just like him. Though Miki was easily able to replace his sister, Kozue has been through almost every boy in school, and none of them have captured her interest for very long.

When the two of them play the piano together, they create a “pure” and beautiful sound. Kozue is not pure, and so she cannot play the piano well, despite Miki’s wishes for her to play again. He doesn’t realize that once innocence is lost, it can never return. “When everything around you is impure, you’ll have to become impure as well. The only way to get what you want is to lose your purity.” Though Kozue can never return to that garden of their childhood innocence, Miki does have the choice to become like Kozue by losing his innocence.

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#2 | Back to Top12-16-2006 01:17:58 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
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Re: The Views on Kozue

You are basically my idol! Shiori is my absolute favorite, not only of SKU, but of any anime. Kozue, however, is a VERY close second.

One thing I always thought about Kozue was how fearless she is. Yes, she's afraid of losing Miki, but look at it this way: Everyone swoons over Utena because of how strong, rebellious, and uninterested in what others think of her. True enough, but what about Kozue? She's willing to drive her life into the ground just to make sure Miki is thinking about her, regardless of HOW he thinks of her. She could care less about the fact that people view her as a slut and a bitch; what they think has no effect on her. She'll keep doing whatever she pleases so long as she never strays from his thoughts. She NEEDS to be his everything. How she achieves that, though, is of no concern to her at all. Thats one thing I'll always love about her. If you were to tell Nanami you hated her, she'd probably get emotional. "You could never understand!" or something like that. But do you honestly think Kozue would care what on earth you had to say about her? If you accused her love of being wrong, Nanami might lash out at you, but Kozue would simply sneer and move on.

I'm not sure that Miki sees Anthy as a replacement for a sister, but more someone to fill the void left open. When Kozue gave up music, it was like her walking out on their pure life. She opened the door to the real world, the one wrapped in sin and horror, beauty and fear. Without Kozue, Miki cannot shut that door, and impurity creeps in more and more each day. He is attempting to use Anthy to close this door, to seal off his pure and shinning world. Well, that's how I see it.

The theories of twins are so interesting, I don't find it abnormal at all to see the way Kozue feels. You're right in that people will always see them as equals, and Kozue may never be able to match up. In a lot of ways, Kozue is very human as well, though I think she hides it wonderfully. She doesn't yell or scream or cry, save for with Mikage. She's similar in ways to Juri; they can both wear a mask to keep from seeming vulnerable, but it only takes one person to break them.

Last edited by dollface (05-30-2017 03:24:58 PM)


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#3 | Back to Top12-16-2006 01:49:54 PM

Archambeau
Muffy, the Forums Trophy Wife
Registered: 11-20-2006
Posts: 499

Re: The Views on Kozue

I think the difference isn't so much between Kozue and Nanami as it is between Miki and Touga.  Miki is insecure, nonconfrontational, and extremely sensitive -- hence why Kozue's distance and baiting affects him so; he wants everything to be ideal.  Whereas with Touga, we have someone who is power-hungry, cocky, and who thrives on getting others riled up; thus we have Nanami who seeks to incite some sort of reaction from him when he generally takes her actions in stride.

Frankly, I've never given much thought to Kozue, as such calculatedness in an individual so young is rather unsettling.  While the other "antagonists" to our main characters seem to be redeemed by the end, she always appeared to me to retain her malice.

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#4 | Back to Top12-16-2006 02:54:48 PM

angelicreation
The Breast Saviour
From: Denver, CO
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: The Views on Kozue

There's one important aspect of the Miki/Kozue relationship that you all seem to be missing - the incestuous nature of it.  Now before anyone gets all up in arms saying there wasn't one, hear me out. 

It is pretty plain to me by the way both twins instantly focus on the other as soon as their's someone sexually interested in them or they show interest in someone else that there's something more than just wanting attention going on.  You have to keep in mind that the twins are 13.  What I see having happened between them is that when they were growing up, they were really close (as we all know)  And when you have a boy and a girl spending a lot of time together as their reaching puberty, and they trust each other, there's a lot of "what does this do?" that happens.  I think the twins experimanted with each other as far as what do their bodies do as they grew up.  A lot of touching and stuff that felt good to them.  I cannot hazard a guess as to whether the two actually had sex, but I'm sure they did some heavy petting.  There is real meat to this theory if you think about the scene in the Black Rose arc where Kozue comes upon Miki sleeping at the piano.  Remember, she leans down and runs her tongue along his ear when someone (Utena?) walks in and catches her.  Kozue's reaction to being caught shows us that she knows the act is wrong. 

Basically, I think once Miki realized how wrong it was for him and Kozue to play around like they had because they were brother and sister, being the good boy that he is, he ended it.  Kozue, on the other hand did not want it to end.  She liked the attention, she liked the way itf elt and she liked the way she controlled things.  Odds are, while the piano was Miki's stage, the bedroom was hers.  So when Miki said no, he took away the one place where she knew she could bend him to be like her.  Tit for tat.  Perhaps she sleeps with so many boys because she can't have the one she really wants - the one who really knows her.

Oh yes, attention is in there, most definitely, but Kozue is a vindictive girl.  She wants her cake and eat it too and when she can't have that, she resorts to nastier means to try and get as much as she can.

Last edited by angelicreation (12-16-2006 03:25:34 PM)


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#5 | Back to Top12-16-2006 03:34:58 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: The Views on Kozue

I'd be more surprised if someone thought that there wasn't something going on between them.

The series does strongly imply that they did have a relationship like that. During the scene that Angelicreation mentioned, we see that Kozue is thinking about their past as she watches her brother sleep, making it easy to assume that her feelings for her brother travel as far back as when they were children.

When Miki recalls what Kozue looks like, he pictures her as looking for like Anthy. If he really does see Anthy as Kozue, then the reason why he acts as though he was doing something wrong by asking Anthy to play the piano with him in episode 15 could be because he relates his feelings for her to his feelings for Kozue, thereby making his attraction towards Anthy wrong in his own eyes.

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#6 | Back to Top12-16-2006 03:53:28 PM

Epi_lepsia
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From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
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Re: The Views on Kozue

Archambeau wrote:

I think the difference isn't so much between Kozue and Nanami as it is between Miki and Touga. .

I think the same, Nanami and Kozue have a strange relation of need for their brothers, the difference is how their brothers react to these. Touga treats Nanami as a small princess, giving her privileges that only she has, only and exclusively but depriving her of things that exactly she is the only one that will never be able to have them. That's why is possible that Nanami is capricious and spoiled. Miki by the other hand, is shy and doesn't give anything to anybody, in fact we doubt that he has any friends (his social life, if this way we can call it, is his piano teacher and Juri). Kozue doesn't feel special, she is the only girl who is near Miki, but simultaneously she is so distant as any perfect stranger. Her distant relation with Miki does that her jealousies are less clear, below our sight, and the roots of her desire for him grow in the deepest of her, where nobody can see them and expand to a few alarming dimensions.

Last edited by Epi_lepsia (12-16-2006 03:55:18 PM)

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#7 | Back to Top12-16-2006 04:12:04 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: The Views on Kozue

Razara wrote:

I'd be more surprised if someone thought that there wasn't something going on between them.

The series does strongly imply that they did have a relationship like that.

I concur that these two have a relationship which definitely has a whiff of incest about it.

And if one wants to look at the movie, well... I think its pretty damn blatant in the movie-verse.


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My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
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#8 | Back to Top12-16-2006 04:19:57 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The Views on Kozue

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Miki by the other hand, is shy and doesn't give anything to anybody, in fact we doubt that he has any friends (his social life, if this way we can call it, is his piano teacher and Juri).

Don't forget Touga and Nanami - he spends time with both of them and seems to consider them as friends. He's shy, yes, but not totally closed up.

I have a precious little to add about Kozue. Excellent analysis, people.


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#9 | Back to Top12-16-2006 04:31:58 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
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Re: The Views on Kozue

Saying that there was no physical relation between the Kaorus would be like saying there was none between Akio and Touga. I suppose we don't SEE it, but it's implied enough to know it's there.

While Nanami's love for Touga physically is debateable [ie- her watching Touga shower vs. her pushing him off her in Akios car], I don't think we can doubt Miki and Kozues love is NOT a simple brother complex. Though some don't believe Miki will ever love Kozue the way she loves him, I think it's pretty clear that there is a story there. I believe that as twins, their bond is very different than any other bond between two people. No one could EVER be as close to Kozue as the mirror image of herself. Miki was the one who carried her along in the garden, playing piano; I think this is a symbol of how he carried her through life. When something was too difficult to face on her own, she hid behind him. She could rely on him to make it all okay. I think this is why their feelings balance the way they do: Miki protected her, but from the way she acts out, he feels Kozue may not need him any longer. She can stand on her own. For Kozue, she sees it as her prince understanding her faults instead of trying to hide them as before. She knows he can't see her as pure, so she must play up her impurity in order to keep his focus, and in the twisted world of SKU, his love.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#10 | Back to Top12-16-2006 04:59:42 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: The Views on Kozue

dollface wrote:

While Nanami's love for Touga physically is debateable [ie- her watching Touga shower vs. her pushing him off her in Akios car],

To go a bit off-topic here, I would say that I think Nanami's pushing of Touga when he tries to put the moves on her, yet watching him shower signifies that she is just really beginning to hit puberty and becoming aware of her own sexuality. Consider how you felt when you were first becoming aware of your own sexuality - wasn't it a bit scary to be feeling that way? Although Nanami is starting to feel sexual feelings, for her brother to act in such a manner is pretty scary, even if it is what she subconsciously wants. And that she was watching him in the shower leads me to believe that her interest in him is not entirely free of sexual feelings.

Another way of looking at it is that she wants to be different from all those other girls whom Touga is involved with - she's already had her status as his sister taken away from her, so if she were to allow Touga's come-on, it would further make her no different from all the girls whom chase after her brother/are involved with her brother, girls she absolutely cannot stand. So this leads her to reject him. However, I'm more convinced of my former explanation as opposed to this latter.


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#11 | Back to Top12-16-2006 07:32:22 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: The Views on Kozue

In some other anime I saw a claim that in olden times the Japanese believed that brother/sister twins were the souls of lovers who had committed suicide. If that's true then they, along with all other such twins, must get a lot of strange looks from everybody. Expectations can influence behavior.

BTW it was Anthy who walked in on Kozue in the piano room. Anthy also giggled.

Kozue and Miki have purity/impurity issues that may be the key to their differences with Touga/Nanami.

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#12 | Back to Top12-16-2006 07:51:15 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: The Views on Kozue

I support MikixKozue, and I've always been very tempted to write about that pairing. This is mostly because I would love to read a fanfiction about them that is written from the point of view of a real twin. However, the thing that makes me want to write about that pairing is also what keeps me from doing so... A twin writing a twincest fic? Even so, I'll probably end up writing it eventually.

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#13 | Back to Top12-16-2006 08:43:49 PM

Archambeau
Muffy, the Forums Trophy Wife
Registered: 11-20-2006
Posts: 499

Re: The Views on Kozue

Razara wrote:

When Miki recalls what Kozue looks like, he pictures her as looking for like Anthy. If he really does see Anthy as Kozue, then the reason why he acts as though he was doing something wrong by asking Anthy to play the piano with him in episode 15 could be because he relates his feelings for her to his feelings for Kozue, thereby making his attraction towards Anthy wrong in his own eyes.

It also could be early foreshadowing to Kozue playing a "witch" role.  Consider how Miki's stepmother also appeared as "Anthy" -- wicked stepmother, anyone?

EDIT: And we should also consider the fact that the sister of a prince is doomed to be a witch.

Last edited by Archambeau (12-16-2006 09:26:39 PM)

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#14 | Back to Top12-16-2006 09:23:08 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
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Re: The Views on Kozue

A Day Without Me wrote:

dollface wrote:

While Nanami's love for Touga physically is debateable [ie- her watching Touga shower vs. her pushing him off her in Akios car],

To go a bit off-topic here, I would say that I think Nanami's pushing of Touga when he tries to put the moves on her, yet watching him shower signifies that she is just really beginning to hit puberty and becoming aware of her own sexuality. Consider how you felt when you were first becoming aware of your own sexuality - wasn't it a bit scary to be feeling that way? Although Nanami is starting to feel sexual feelings, for her brother to act in such a manner is pretty scary, even if it is what she subconsciously wants. And that she was watching him in the shower leads me to believe that her interest in him is not entirely free of sexual feelings.

Another way of looking at it is that she wants to be different from all those other girls whom Touga is involved with - she's already had her status as his sister taken away from her, so if she were to allow Touga's come-on, it would further make her no different from all the girls whom chase after her brother/are involved with her brother, girls she absolutely cannot stand. So this leads her to reject him. However, I'm more convinced of my former explanation as opposed to this latter.

I completely agree. I said that this was debateable, as in some people can take thier relationship in many different ways. I definately sense some sexual tension in a way, but the way she pushes him away can force people to rethink this. But I too believe that she loves him but knows that pursuing him in such a way would make her "another fly in the swarm" as Nanami puts it. "I refuse to become some unanswered call!" I think that quote pretty much sums it up. Aaaah, I have to go find a Nanami forum now *prances off*

Back to Kozue though, before I go off in search of Nanami. The twin factor is so complicated. I believe that twins of the same gender are the souls of close friends. Twins of opposite genders, I believe, are the souls of lovers. I'm really not much for the idea of reincarnation, but I kind of contradict myself, as I do believe it CAN happen, but I don't think EVERYONE is. ANYWAY, I support KozuexMiki as well, partly because I am such a huge fan of twincest [one of the most interesting forms of love], but also because of who Kozue and Miki are...like two sides of one coin. So opposite yet so identical[I mean, they ARE twins...]. It's white vs. black. White being the brightest bright and black as the darkest dark, but in the end they are one in the same. If that can make any form of sense whatsoever. There is so much difference, but in the end they will never be able to be two seperate people. [I'm quite aware of how stereotypical that sounds.] Kozue creates the chains to bind them so they will eternally be one. I frankly can't ever see Miki or Kozue moving on from their childhood love. But I guess that's what a revolution is for...?


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#15 | Back to Top12-17-2006 01:02:48 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: The Views on Kozue

I liked Kozue from the beginning because she scared me, if that makes any sense. She's cool, calculating and vindictive. She'll do anything to get attention from Miki and it's almost all negative attention. She wears a mask to hide her vulnerability and in that she's a lot like Juri, which is why I think there are so many Juri/Kozue fanfics out there.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#16 | Back to Top12-20-2006 02:26:00 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: The Views on Kozue

Shiori, Juri, Nanami, Kozue. Three of them live in the shadows of more dominating personalities (and Juri too in a way). All four of them put on airs of toughness and worldliness. They all despise Anthy in part because her passivity and vulnerability reminds them of what they despise in themselves.

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#17 | Back to Top12-20-2006 03:19:54 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4691

Re: The Views on Kozue

brian wrote:

They all despise Anthy in part because her passivity and vulnerability reminds them of what they despise in themselves.

Actually, Shiori doesn't despise Anthy. They're actually pretty friendly towards each other. However, Anthy does symbolize that part of herself that was living a miserable life in the shadow of Juri's brilliance. In her duel, by trying to kill the Rose Bride, she was trying to destroy that part of herself.

I suppose that there is a slight connect between the two of them. Anthy is best friends with Utena, the most popular girl in school, and a star that shines brighter than any other. No one can understand why Utena would want to be friends with a normal girl like Anthy, just as Shiori can't understand why someone as amazing as Juri would want to be friends with someone such as herself. In the beginning, Utena was only friends with Anthy because she had no other choice, similar to how Shiori feels that Juri only hung around with her out of pity.

"She's usually so quiet, too." They seem like normal, quiet girls that you would never notice, yet both of them can cause mass havoc with a smile on their faces.

Hmm... I'm going to have to put more thought into this. It seems like an interesting comparison.

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#18 | Back to Top12-21-2006 02:40:24 PM

Personal_IceQueen
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Registered: 11-27-2006
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Re: The Views on Kozue

ShatteredMirror wrote:

I liked Kozue from the beginning because she scared me, if that makes any sense. She's cool, calculating and vindictive. She'll do anything to get attention from Miki and it's almost all negative attention. She wears a mask to hide her vulnerability and in that she's a lot like Juri, which is why I think there are so many Juri/Kozue fanfics out there.

On a whole that brings up something that's crossed my mind, when you have fans who strongly dislike kozue or Shiori...it's ironic, because they have parallel personalities to the more favorable characters like Juri or Utena.  It's as if , if Juri was not so malcontent and passive in her decision to be miserable, she could turn into a Kozue or someone who uses their misery to project it onto others.


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#19 | Back to Top12-21-2006 03:53:25 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: The Views on Kozue

There is something I don't understand about the duel where Kozue served as Miki's Rose Bride. Afterwards they are tending the nest with the two baby birds and they are both snapping at each other. I don't understand her saying, "you coward!"  Why does she say that?

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#20 | Back to Top12-21-2006 03:55:20 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
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Re: The Views on Kozue

brian wrote:

BTW it was Anthy who walked in on Kozue in the piano room. Anthy also giggled.

Kozue and Miki have purity/impurity issues that may be the key to their differences with Touga/Nanami.

When Anthy walks in on Kozue with Miki in the piano room, I always thought Anthy reacted that way because of her relationship with Akio. Perhaps she sees a little of herself in Kozue, much as she might see herself in Nanami, which is why she may find pleasure in both brothers interest in her.

Another way to look at that would be found in Kozues line from that scene.
"You're going to say something, aren't you?"
This could imply that she WANTED Anthy to react badly to this. She could have had the hopes that if Anthy saw something to give her ideas about the twins, then perhaps Anthy would stay away from Miki. No ordinary girl would hang on a guy they thought was having sex with his sister. I mean, look at Nanami's reaction to seeing Anthy and Akio.

But she must not realize that Anthy's no ordinary girl. Neither is Utena, apparently, since she went on that date with Akio after seeing the sister twister.

Archambeau wrote:

And we should also consider the fact that the sister of a prince is doomed to be a witch.

Ah, that had never crossed my mind. Some could argue that Kozue is trying to escape the fate Anthy lived through. She doesn't want Miki as her prince, and as such, she sleeps around in hopes to find a different prince. One who can make her the princess she desires to be. But I honestly don't believe that Kozue does what she does for any other reason than to keep Mikis attention. I guess with all her lines that support this, the theory of finding a non-Miki prince can't be believable even to someone other than me.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#21 | Back to Top12-21-2006 04:31:58 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
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Re: The Views on Kozue

brian wrote:

There is something I don't understand about the duel where Kozue served as Miki's Rose Bride. Afterwards they are tending the nest with the two baby birds and they are both snapping at each other. I don't understand her saying, "you coward!"  Why does she say that?

It's important to note that Miki's tending the nest alone. Kozue walks past him almost as if it's a chance encounter before stopping to have the brief exhange.

My take is that it harkens back to their conversation in Akio's car.

Kozue:  If everything around you is dirty, don't you have no choice but to get dirty too?
Kozue:  You've got no choice but to get dirty and then get what you want.

Kozue's calling Miki a coward for refusing to lose his purity and become an adult. That's what she feels cost him the duel against Utena.


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#22 | Back to Top06-10-2007 09:59:46 PM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: The Views on Kozue

I thought the same thing. I found it quite depressing that Miki's story is the only one never really solved, though I may be talking from Kozue's perspective.

Maybe I'm still too innocent?? Though I sincerely doubt it O.o

But maybe I am.

I did just recently get through 800 odd minutes of Utena in three days so maybe thats it. But though I got vibes, I didn't actually pick up on any twincest. And I think I blinked and maybe missed Kozue licking Miki's ear (wtf? O.o), I thought she was perhaps just giving him a kiss or something. Can anyone think of anything else in the series that leads them to believe that there was a physical relationship between the two because its certainly interesting.

On the note of Nanami and Touga, I agree with the idea of Nanami not wanting to be another troublesome insect and thus rejecting Touga's advances in the car, and maybe she's subconsciously sexually attracted to Touga (I mean come on who isn't) but I always pegged it as more romanticized then sexual. She grew up with her world revolving around Touga, they slept in the same bed together, took baths together, when she askes him to kiss her in a much earlier episode, he refuses saying they're no longer kids, and when he suggests the same thing, she gets huffy about it and repeates similar words, that they're no longer kids (though its obvious she misses that), so perhaps Touga used to kiss Nanami on the lips as well when they were kids, as perhaps a kiss goodnight or a goodbye kiss. But when you're growing up you obviously can no longer do these things anymore, he's a boy and shes a girl and it would be improper to retain that bond because growing up you go through changes.

To me Nanami seemed like she was simply unable to accept these changes and this aspect of growing up. She still wanted to retain her happy memories of being with her brother where he's attentions on her were doting and intimate without any of the complications growing up brings.

I find I can be similar in the way that used to say that boys turned into jerks once they hit puberty. I wanted to have the same carefree close relationships I had with my male friends when I was younger but then they hit a certain age and it was difficult for me to accept I could no longer have that. (I'm still very much that way)


Great this is supposed to be Kozue and I veer off into Nanami, bloody hell emot-rolleyes

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#23 | Back to Top06-13-2007 09:01:12 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: The Views on Kozue

Actually there is an interesting parallel between Touga and Kozue. They are both immersed in impurity but are very concerned about protecting their siblings from impurity. One could argue that Kozue is just jealous of the music teacher but I think she genuinely wanted to protect Miki, even though in a different context she might have thought it to be just a drink of water to sleep with the music teacher herself.

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#24 | Back to Top06-15-2007 02:53:03 AM

Coco Melancholy
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 06-04-2007
Posts: 415

Re: The Views on Kozue

That was my take on Kozue as well. That since Miki is "innocent and pure" she can shoulder the darker aspects of the world for him instead. I mean she's never going to BE him, (hes the genuis twin afterall), and it doesn't look like he's ever going to give Kozue the affection, attention and closeness she yearns for until she is. Which she can't be. She can only be herself you know. So I guess acting up was the best she could do, I mean its what a lot of people who feel neglected do anyway. And by acting up she's close to him in a way he won't let her be.

He's the smart one moving forward, the one who's beginning to get crushes on other people. What if he leaves her behind and forgets about her. I had a lot of smart friends who went away to University. Leaving me behind. None of them ever contacted me, and though I was happy for them, I was also kinda sad since I was alone and forgotten, and those were good friends you know, can you imagine if that was your twin, and you had no parents there to support you, and that was the only person you ever really had. I wouldn't give them up without a fight. To hell if they like it or not and they think I'm degrading myself, at least their thinking....

.......about me....

I can easilly see Kozue picking the path she did just because she honestly thought she couldn't do any better. Miki's the brilliant one afterall, what else can she do. She'll never live up to he's expectations. At least this way she can protect him better.

And it doesn't matter how dark and dirty she goes, he's the good twin afterall, not her. And good twins don't really see how bad the world is. Since Miki's that way, it would be useless for Kozue to be that way too. She can't protect him if she's as blind as him to the darker aspects Ohtori.

Miki's too innocent to see the music teachers intentions, but Kozue's been there, she knows what the bastards thinking and theres no way she's going to let him ruin her sweet innocent Miki.


---------------------------------------------


Saying this, I would have to admit that the Akio arc seemed to show the end of this arrangement.

Maybe Kozue thought it was time that Miki grew up, I never really understood what was going on here in this arc with Miki's new attitude and all, I guessed maybe he was learning if you want things in life you have to grow up and take the active steps you need in order to get them, and maybe Kozue was acting as the "but do it morally" lesson. And I suppose her calling him a coward was her picking up on the fact that he learned that lesson. I wasn't so sure on Utena's comment about Miki using a childs sword, or her unfinished comment about how he seemed more of something. *shrugs* maybe I need to think about this episode more.

(Oh boi! I wished they showed more about Akio and Kozue's date in this one)


------------------------------------------


I don't know much about Touga since Nanami's interest doesn't really go anywhere for him to be concerned. And we never see Nanami have admirers like other characters do. Take for example Utena's or Miki's or Touga's or Saionji's and so on, I mean yea aside from three guys and a little slave boy I'm not so sure Nanami IS really that popular at all. Even her own followers are more interested in their proximity to Touga than actually following Nanami. I always thought her popularity was more a state of mind (cowbell anyone??) than anything else.

So Touga doesn't really have anything to worry about there either. And even if he did, he knows Nanami's attentions are fixed soley on him anway. Aside from that forcing himself on her in Akio's car probably isn't a good sign that he's concerned with her purity.

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#25 | Back to Top06-15-2007 06:41:04 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: The Views on Kozue

The interesting thing about Kozue to me is that we have no direct evidence that she isn't as smart/talented as Miki.  This allows us the alternative interpretation that she is, but lacks the confidence in herself to let anyone know.  When called upon to play the piano, she just didn't believe that she could do it without Miki, and was too embarrassed to try.  This could well lead to her having bad grades too (speaking from experience here).  This makes her relationship with Miki rather ironic, he knows she can do better and doesn't understand why she seems to make such an effort to appear foolish, while she thinks that he's looking down on her because she's stupid.  This has been going on long enough that they lack a good means of communication and can't simply tell each other what they're feeling, and neither of them has the maturity to forge new ones.  Sad, really.  Going further with this interpretation, she calls him a coward because for the first time, he has failed to live up to her expectations.  Perhaps this will lead her to understand him better and allow her to look at him as a brother and not as a man on a pedestal.  Actually, in this interpretation, I see Kozue as closer to Nanami than Touga, with the whole hero worship thing.

It occurs to me that I should read more of the character analyses at Empty Movement, it's entirely possible that someone already said all of this.


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
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