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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top02-26-2011 11:06:26 AM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

I finally saw the link between that show and Utena.

Usagi is Utena, obviously. Both are naive, both are heroic, both are surrounded by characters who are much more colorful than them. Also, superpowered alter ego.

Tuxedo Mask is Dios, Mamoru is Akio. One is an idealized noble prince, the other is a worldly introvert whose immersion in his books rivals that of Mercury, kind of like Akio's association with his observatory.

The four Student Council members are very clearly Usagi's senshi. Mercury is Miki because of her quantitative skills, Mars is Saionji because of their shared violence and association with Japanese tradition (Shinto/Kendo), Jupiter is Juri because of her pure devotion to physical prowess, and Venus is Touga, because out of all the 5 Senshi, she is easily the most alpha, much more so than even Usagi.

The shadow puppets are the two cats, as they move in and out of scenes narrating everything that goes on.

And finally, Anthy is Chibi Usa. She assumes a subordinate role to Usagi, playing upon her protective tendencies, while leading her along a predetermined path throughout.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-02-2011 03:54:39 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top03-02-2011 12:49:45 AM

Trench Kamen
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 12-08-2006
Posts: 903
Website

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Overlord Morgus wrote:

Saturn is Juri because of her pure devotion to physical prowess and lesbianism

In the first place, I'm almost positive you're talking about Jupiter, because none of that matches up. Also not sure where the holy hell you're getting "pure devotion to lesbianism". She's tough, therefore a lesbian? Get back to Gender Theory 101. If you can't grasp that, you won't survive long on this forum.

In the second place, no.

Last edited by Trench Kamen (03-02-2011 12:53:26 AM)

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#3 | Back to Top03-02-2011 01:52:26 AM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

I remember reading that Jupiter was a lesbian, I haven't watched much of the series. I'll edit that.

Also, Mercury's portable computer/Miki's stopwatch.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-02-2011 01:59:24 AM)

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#4 | Back to Top03-02-2011 06:40:29 AM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

I don't really see the (character) correlation personally but I've done this myself with lots of other series. Also, Ikuhara directed the Sailor Moon film (or at least part of the series? Not quite sure on this) so Utena has some obvious influences from SM and magical girl anime in general, like the replay of transformation sequences (i.e. the sword-summoning ritual) and some of the characterization processes. Not to mention just a nebulous feeling that I saw some of this stuff on SM already emot-rolleyes

I also haven't actually watched that much of Sailor Moon at this point =_=;


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#5 | Back to Top03-02-2011 03:12:16 PM

Trench Kamen
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 12-08-2006
Posts: 903
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Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Overlord Morgus wrote:

I remember reading that Jupiter was a lesbian.

You're probably thinking of Uranus and/or Neptune. Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune are two of the most famous 'out' lesbians in anime, and they kick ass. The only thing we know about Sailor Jupiter's orientation is that she had a boyfriend sometime before joining the Senshi, and she thinks about him a lot.

I admit I'm not seeing much of a resemblance beyond the superficial.

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#6 | Back to Top03-02-2011 03:51:26 PM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Okay, I was completely wrong about Jupiter.

But the Miki/Mercury resemblance is pretty blatant, especially since they both have number-oriented props that give them information about their environment. Also, blue hair.

And the Akio/Dios and Mamoru/Tuxedo Mask connection is pretty strong, Mamoru's connection to his alter ego was always more tenuous than Usagi's, since he'd often forget his adventures once he went back to being Mamoru.

And Juri and Jupiter are both lovelorn, so that's another connection. Plus, they're both the most physical in their own groups of teenage elites.

Also, I could just reiterate everything from my first post, I mean, I thought I made my point pretty strongly.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-02-2011 03:55:23 PM)

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#7 | Back to Top03-02-2011 06:51:53 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Overlord Morgus wrote:

But the Miki/Mercury resemblance is pretty blatant, especially since they both have number-oriented props that give them information about their environment. Also, blue hair.

You left out the fact that they have the same voice actress.  Hisakawa Aya is one of the best in the business.  etc-love  (She's not the only seiyuu Ikuhara dragged with him from Sailor Moon to Utena, either; would you believe that Juri is voiced by the same woman as Sailor Moon herself?)

Still, I'd need to see more Sailor Moon myself before trying to draw any parallels between characters.  Or talk to Mylene about it -- she's the acknowledged expert on Sailor Moon 'round these parts emot-smile

Last edited by satyreyes (03-02-2011 06:53:45 PM)

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#8 | Back to Top03-03-2011 06:41:18 AM

Calamity
High Tripper
Registered: 06-13-2010
Posts: 244

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

satyreyes wrote:

(She's not the only seiyuu Ikuhara dragged with him from Sailor Moon to Utena, either; would you believe that Juri is voiced by the same woman as Sailor Moon herself?)

I am completely flabbergasted! emot-tongue I had been watching some Japanese Sailor Moon a few months ago (been meaning to do it forever, I grew up loving the show and it's about time I watched it without all the censoring and chopping up episodes) and never for a second would I have thought Juri and Usagi have the same VA... emot-aaa

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#9 | Back to Top03-03-2011 09:19:17 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

And if my memory serves me well, Shiori is voiced by the same girl who voiced Diana the kitty.

Regarding Jupiter, despite her physical prowess, both Juri and her actually share one more thing in common: in my opinion anyway, I feel that deep down, they actually are devoting themselves to feminine traits moreso than their physical prowess. Makoto loves gardening and cooking, and Juri lets her hair down, wears elegant dresses and adorns herself in priceless jewelries. And I believe both of them are also Sagittarius. Their fierce fronts were somewhat more of a mask they are wearing in public. Whether they were intentional or not, that's up for debate. I'd like to think that they aren't aware of it, which would technically make them angel androgynous, wouldn't it? emot-confused

Last edited by Hiraku (03-03-2011 09:26:46 PM)

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#10 | Back to Top03-04-2011 01:19:34 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Calamity wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

(She's not the only seiyuu Ikuhara dragged with him from Sailor Moon to Utena, either; would you believe that Juri is voiced by the same woman as Sailor Moon herself?)

I am completely flabbergasted! emot-tongue I had been watching some Japanese Sailor Moon a few months ago (been meaning to do it forever, I grew up loving the show and it's about time I watched it without all the censoring and chopping up episodes) and never for a second would I have thought Juri and Usagi have the same VA... emot-aaa

Them and everyone else!  Mitsuishi Kotono is in everything.  She was also Excel in Excel Saga, Misato in Evangelion, Kagura in Fruits Basket, and a hundred others.  Juri is against type for her -- I think she's cast more for high-energy roles than for subtle performances -- but she's obviously more than able to turn up the smoldering introversion when the role requires it etc-love  Her male converse would probably be Koyasu Takehito, who takes on Touga in Utena.  He does mostly shounen, she does mostly shoujo, and SKU, of course, has a little of both.  emot-smile

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#11 | Back to Top03-04-2011 05:07:19 AM

Mylene
Fighting Evil By Moonlight
From: Next to Paradox
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 3704

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

satyreyes wrote:

Still, I'd need to see more Sailor Moon myself before trying to draw any parallels between characters.  Or talk to Mylene about it -- she's the acknowledged expert on Sailor Moon 'round these parts emot-smile

And I would argue there are very few parallels outside of a few shallow character archetypes.  Usagi and Utena are both naive, but Usagi is not naive to the point of cruelty.  Additionally, her type of love is very different from Utena.  Usagi saves others out of a selflessness, Utena's desire to rescue has much more selfish aspects, especially starting out.  Usagi doesn't even want to save people, she does because she needs to and she can't bear for others to suffer.  Very different. The Mamoru comparisons don't really make sense.  He doesn't have a personality split--he's as much Mamoru as Tuxedo Mask as he is as Mamoru or Prince Endymion.  Juri and Makoto are about as far from similar as possible outside of a few shallow comparisons (strong and both feminine and masculine all at once)--but you could also just as easily compare Juri to any of the Outers (minus Hotaru).

Ami and Miki are probably the most similar, except that Ami lacks the complexes that Miki has.  With a little encouragement from Usagi, she lifts herself out of her shyness and begins to shine.  She's beholden to no one though (except maybe Makoto, but that's a discussion for another time...I don't have time to break out the scenes that have led to this conclusion [every time we rewatch the series, we look for these moments].)

Sailor Moon gets brought up in my household every single day. Not always a deep character discussion, but it's always something.  I've seen every season at least once, some seasons 4-5 times. All of the movies have been viewed 3+ times. I've watched the live action.  I've read the manga in French (although only once and with some volumes missing--so I'm definitely not a manga expert).  And I really must say there aren't many similarities.  The seasons where Ikuhara was involved tended to be a bit darker, but it's still completely Takeuchi Naoko's story (well, except for the Ail and Ann arc in R--that's someone else's idea entirely).

Speaking of seiyuu, it seems like everyone who started their acting career before the end of Sailor Moon played a role in Sailor Moon.  Usually as a monster of the day, but often as main roles as well.  I'm always amused by this fact. emot-keke

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#12 | Back to Top03-04-2011 05:33:17 AM

Paradox
Winning Love By Daylight
From: Indianapolis, IN
Registered: 07-13-2007
Posts: 343

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Internally, if Juri is like anyone, it's Haruka.  Or well, Haruka if there were no Michiru that she opened up to.  Juri is the closed locket in a way that no one in SM quite matches.  As for Mamoru, he's a LOT closer to Tatsuya than Akio, but not really all that close to either.  Heck, given how often he's used as the save-me plot device, I'd say he's closer to Anthy than Akio.  There really isn't an Akio character in SM, though it'd have been interesting if there was.  While Mercury and Miki both have a small device, the function is completely disparate.  Mercury uses hers as a tool, Miki's serves no seeming purpose except perhaps as a nervous crutch.

Some of the similarities that are coming out are common magical girl tropes that predate both series.  Sailor Moon just became the series for which they're best known in North America, while Utena goes out of its way to use them while twisting them in its own way. 

A lot of these external, skin-deep similarities are intentional; Utena's effort to take the most common themes of shoujo and turn them on their ears.  Without more than a passing understanding of the characters, though, it's hard to make real comparisons.

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#13 | Back to Top03-04-2011 06:46:08 AM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Would it help if I mentioned that Sailor Mars was also something of a rival to Usagi, especially in the anime re:Mamoru, kind of like how Saionji is utterly defined by his rivalry with Touga?

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#14 | Back to Top03-04-2011 10:31:16 AM

Celaenoe
Miki Molester
From: Columbus, OH/Covington, KY
Registered: 09-09-2010
Posts: 32
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Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Paradox wrote:

Some of the similarities that are coming out are common magical girl tropes that predate both series.  Sailor Moon just became the series for which they're best known in North America, while Utena goes out of its way to use them while twisting them in its own way. 

A lot of these external, skin-deep similarities are intentional; Utena's effort to take the most common themes of shoujo and turn them on their ears.  Without more than a passing understanding of the characters, though, it's hard to make real comparisons.

I agree with this. I think that you can also make these connections with most characters in any sort of story. There are always characters who are stereotypes in any show, and creators frequently reuse concepts and appearances of their characters.
So in that sense, I agree that there are a few parallels to be drawn between the shows, and that it's natural for a director/creator to reuse and reinforce concepts in their other works.

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#15 | Back to Top03-04-2011 05:18:09 PM

Paradox
Winning Love By Daylight
From: Indianapolis, IN
Registered: 07-13-2007
Posts: 343

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Overlord Morgus wrote:

Would it help if I mentioned that Sailor Mars was also something of a rival to Usagi, especially in the anime re:Mamoru, kind of like how Saionji is utterly defined by his rivalry with Touga?

Err, not really.  The conflict between Rei and Usagi is almost entirely superficial.  When the chips are down, Rei's first concern is looking after Usagi.  While she tries to hide it with quarreling, Rei is mostly defined by her love for Usagi, not rivalry over Mamoru.  There's a brief conflict there in season one, but if anything, it's notable for how quickly and completely Rei steps aside once Usagi gets involved.

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#16 | Back to Top03-04-2011 05:40:16 PM

Overlord Morgus
Ruthless Deflorist
Registered: 02-22-2011
Posts: 310

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

That's the thing, Utena's essentially where all the cute harmless character interactions from Sailor Moon get turned into a living hell.

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#17 | Back to Top03-13-2011 10:10:10 PM

Melancholic_Soul
Dancer Romancer
From: VA
Registered: 04-28-2009
Posts: 1513

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

I feel that Usagi and Utena could be friends in an AU starring both casts.... I think maybe Setsuna and Akio should have tea.... I'm also under the impression that Chu Chu would try to *eat both Luna and Artemis.




*By eat I mean mercilessly hump for hours on end


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/anthy_utena/rukasan.gif Believing in the power of Love and Justice since 1999
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#18 | Back to Top11-15-2013 01:35:26 AM

RoseandRelease
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 10-12-2013
Posts: 45
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Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

If we are going to compare SMoon to SKU, can we at least mention the fact that Utena and Anthy were quite directly inspired by Haruka and Michiru?

Here is an extract from an interview with Ikuhara, where he talks about a proposed idea for the SMSS movie (not very well translated, I'm afraid):

"It was going to be a story in which Uranus and Neptune were the main characters. It was going to be a story independant to the TV series and this was going to be the first appearance of Uranus and Neptune. And Sailor Neptune was going to be in a 1000-year sleep at a place called "The End of the World". And Sailor Uranus was needed to steal the talisman from the Sailor Senshi and use that to awaken Sailor Neptune. And Uranus was going to be riding the black pegasus. And the story was going to be that Sailor Moon would ride Pegasus to chase Sailor Uranus riding the Black Pegasus to the "End of the World". And the climax of the story would've been the rodeo scene between Sailor Moon on white Pegasus and Sailor Uranus on Black Pegasus. And so this was kind of story I had in mind. But before production began, the producer walked off Sailor Moon. It would've been possible for me to make the story still, but since I came up with the story with the producer, I also walked off. But I had an attraction to the idea of "The End of the World" which I thought up for this plot. So the same thing in Utena comes from the Sailor Moon plot."
http://www.wikimoon.org/index.php?title … Girl_Utena

So if that movie had been made, would we not have had SKU at all?

Here are all the voice actors...
Juri - Usagi
Miki - Ami
Mikage - Fiore (this one made me laugh)
Kozue - Tellu
Anthy - Cyprine
Shiori - Diana...

As well as this, I can't help thinking of Sailor Saturn and her destructive/revolutionizing power in relation to Utena; and her reserved character reminds me of Anthy. How would she interact with Akio?

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#19 | Back to Top11-15-2013 02:52:28 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Holy hell! I thought this was a completely new thread.

I think we really lucked out in terms of Ikuhara moving over stuff from the Sailor Moon movie and everyone massaging it into Utena, but we would've got something decent down the line, even if it hadn't been Utena. There was a nice little "let's do classic anime and let's be intense and forward" vibe going on during those years and Ikuhara would've been involved in something more best-foot-forward than Sailor Moon. (I'm saying this as a Sailor Moon fan). TV Tokyo and other stations started pulling everybody's punches not too long after that window opened, though, and you see "midnight anime" become a thing or other escape routes.

Ikuhara would've found some escape route. He, and we, are probably just lucky it became SKU.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#20 | Back to Top11-15-2013 03:55:01 PM

zevrem
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Registered: 03-23-2013
Posts: 387

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

Are you saying that TV Tokyo essentially censored its own shows?


The real purpose of elections is to make the people hate each other more than they hate their government.

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#21 | Back to Top11-15-2013 04:04:49 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

zevrem wrote:

Are you saying that TV Tokyo essentially censored its own shows?

Starting during Eva's first run, they were cutting parts or refusing to air episodes of that show and a few others, but shortly thereafter, as things amped up post-Eva (roughly, 1998-9?), they instituted some very strict policies on what they would or would not air, including the not-shooting-people and no-skirts-moving rules placed on Steam Detective's adaptation. Other stations did similar. In a sense these were reasonable, and commercially sound decisions, but it also chased the more "adult" anime to latenight slots, which is why Excel Saga and such were midnight anime. And a good share of daytime anime from those years hasn't aged quite as well as the stuff just before it, due to some obvious avoidances.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#22 | Back to Top11-16-2013 12:52:56 AM

zevrem
Banned
Registered: 03-23-2013
Posts: 387

Re: Just watched a Sailor Moon film for the first time...

That's the best explanation for the decline of anime I've ever heard. I mean, it's anime. It HAS to have blood and death and depression in it.

Now that I think of it, blood and sacrifice probably IS the missing ingredient. Look at Macross Plus, the best Macross offering of all time, and it features hatred and despair and a man forcing his hands into his abdomen while his eyes explode. Then compare it to Macross Frontier, or the new Gundam shows, where none of the main cast ever die. Or look at how the best Cowboy Bebop episodes by far are the ones involving Spike's conflict with Vicious, or Faye's futile, heartbreaking attempts to recapture her lost past.

Or Steamboy vs Akira. Or Sky Crawlers vs the old Ghost in the Shell movie. Or the Kenshin OVA vs the TV series. When you look at two offerings from the same franchise/creator, this all becomes so obvious.

That's what hand-drawn cells have that cgi lacks: entropy. Without entropy, there is no arrow of time, no tragedy. Any destruction or disruption can be ctrl-z'd out of existence.

Oh, and Madoka Magica, the only really best-selling anime of recent memory. Giant franchise, massive angst and depression and blood.

Last edited by zevrem (11-16-2013 08:43:26 AM)


The real purpose of elections is to make the people hate each other more than they hate their government.

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