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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#701 | Back to Top12-23-2011 07:27:59 PM

Ragnarok
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From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Davine Lu Linvega wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

What does it mean that [two boys were willing to sacrifice themselves for two girls -- without the girls' consent, it should be noted, and in Himari's case actually against her will?  Alternatively, what does it mean that Himari and Ringo got to live, while Kanba and Shouma didn't]

This was my biggest annoyance with the story. [Himari basically had no agency. We know that she didn't want her brothers to suffer for her sake, and those wishes were regularly dismissed. After Utena, I wouldn't have expected Ikuhara to create a 'damsel in distress' character, but that's what Himari was in the end, and while the series repeatedly shows that she didn't want to be saved, no one cared and the brothers' actions were portrayed positively in the end.

It was kind of interesting how Sanetoshi ended up being responsible for his own defeat. He sent Himari's scarves to Double-H, most likely in order to strengthen her attachment to the world and add to her torment so she would stay alive and Kanba would be more motivated to save her. But that's what led to Ringo getting their CD and learning the "fruit of fate" spell. Shades of Akio grooming Utena for the final duel?
]

I don't know that Himari fits the profile for a damsel in distress, in that she's not actually shown to be in distress. She's aware that she's going to die and she has some unhappiness in her life, but she repeatedly states how happy she is/was living with her brothers even when it's clear it can't last. The final episode states the 'curse' isn't Himari dying, it's all three of them living as Takakuras.

I'm fairly sure that Shouma had to be part of Kanba's sacrifice, he would have disappeared either way and so he managed to take the spell's cost onto himself instead of Ringo without 'losing' anything which wasn't already going to be lost.

Back more to satyr's question. Ringo was also willing to sacrifice herself to save Himari without Himari's consent, which was the only thing which put her into danger or even got her onto the train. I don't think the message is 'boys save girls' anymore than Utena's message is 'girls save girls.' And it seems to me as if the brothers' sacrifice is also seen as what's best for them in our last glimpse of them. Or to look at it another way, why do Tabuki and Yuri get to live while Momoka doesn't?

But honestly I'm just posting to try to sort out my own interpretation of things.

Last edited by Ragnarok (12-23-2011 07:28:32 PM)


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#702 | Back to Top12-23-2011 07:32:13 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Can we has Mawaru Penguindrum forum or a new thread?  Spoiler tags are getting supah numerous.

I think we totally should have a new thread with spoiler warning after the thread title. I'm seeing a sea of white. emot-aaa

Or maybe we should just change the title of this particular thread by adding [spoiler] at the end of it, so people will know that there will be spoilers.

Last edited by Hiraku (12-23-2011 07:34:44 PM)

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#703 | Back to Top12-23-2011 07:56:32 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
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Posts: 10328
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Spoiler warning added to the thread title.  Naturally, anyone is welcome to make new threads about specific questions or observations; not all MPD discussion has to be confined to this thread!

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#704 | Back to Top12-23-2011 08:07:33 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Thanks, Satyr,

At this point, though, I feel that maybe after we've discussed what we think we saw from our first view through Penguindrum, then we'd probably have a better grasp of what sort of things we want to branch out into separate topics.

In another Penguin-related note, I could be wrong, but I think this is the first time after so long that we finally hear Himari's personal take on the word "Fate". :|a

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#705 | Back to Top12-23-2011 08:09:19 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Notebook Darling wrote:

http://8ths.in/2011/12/23/mawaru-penguindrum-ep24-end-observations/  <- so that's why the penguin was smashing eggs on his head

hopefully my posts aren't annoying anyone D:

So, if you read the comments at the link, the first one jumps out at me. I don't want to copypasta because this part of the forum is public, but the big takeaway there is...

Himari is the reincarnation of Momoka, and Mario is the reincarnation of Sanetoshi.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#706 | Back to Top12-23-2011 08:34:09 PM

HonorableShadow
Cow Bellhop
From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 471
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Can we has Mawaru Penguindrum forum or a new thread?

I think it would be nice if it got a little forum of it's very own. But I'm not sure how active it would be.


Rose tint my world...
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain.

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#707 | Back to Top12-23-2011 08:58:02 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Notebook Darling wrote:

http://8ths.in/2011/12/23/mawaru-penguindrum-ep24-end-observations/  <- so that's why the penguin was smashing eggs on his head

hopefully my posts aren't annoying anyone D:

So, if you read the comments at the link, the first one jumps out at me. I don't want to copypasta because this part of the forum is public, but the big takeaway there is...

Himari is the reincarnation of Momoka, and Mario is the reincarnation of Sanetoshi.

You know, that might explain why Masako kept getting phone calls from Sanetoshi... assuming the "curse" would be so close to her, if that is the case.

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#708 | Back to Top12-23-2011 09:16:38 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Welcome to the Mawaru-Penguindrum subforum.  emot-biggrin

Have a blast!

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#709 | Back to Top12-23-2011 10:57:47 PM

HonorableShadow
Cow Bellhop
From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 471
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Wow, it's so shiny and new. emot-biggrin Thank you!


Rose tint my world...
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain.

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#710 | Back to Top12-24-2011 12:51:42 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Thanks satyr!! emot-biggrin

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#711 | Back to Top12-24-2011 01:49:55 AM

Sakura Rurouni
Saionji Slapper
From: Colorado
Registered: 07-02-2011
Posts: 26

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Observations I garnered from watching episode 24 with my buddies:

I think the best hint as to the nature of the Penguindrum would have been [to have the apple that Shouma gave Himari in the Child Broiler be a half-apple. Instead he had a full one.]

In the [new world, the Takakura family photo changed. The original version was in the aquarium with penguins behind them; now it has monkeys at the zoo. Also, Himari doesn't seem to know Double H personally.]

And the message from [Kanba and Shouma at the end: "If we die, let's agree to send a message to someone we care about."]

Confusing though it was, this finale felt quite satisfying.


La blessure traverse mon cur
Et j'ai-- la joie dans la douleur
Je m'enivre de ce poison
en perdre la raison

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#712 | Back to Top12-24-2011 03:30:25 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 963

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Thoughts and questions:

Could it make sense that the Princess of Crystal is Sanetoshi? Don't Himari's eyes turn pink in princess form? It would explain her dirty language and nastiness better IMO than the theory that she's a bad side of Momoka/Himari. And make the idea of Kanba making out with her that much more disturbing/hot. etc-wankgirl

What is the significance of Shouma being Himari's soul mate? They didn't take that idea anywhere, did they? Himari doesn't seem particularly in love with him. Although I'm not sure if she seems in love with Kanba either?

And why does Kanba never save anyone despite his prince complex? When Shouma needs saving he takes a fake diary. He doesn't steal the diary from Ringo. When Himari is dangling by a thread he refuses to divulge information. I personally found his character as frustratingly useless as Shouma. 

I don't really understand the sibling set-up thing and I also don't get significance or purpose. They're siblings, now they're not, did they forget, are they just pretending, why?

WHAT DID THE ENTIRE RINGO-TABUKI SUBPLOT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING TO TAKE UP SO MANY EPISODES? D: I mean, it was amusing as hell, but still...


In a more philosophical level, is what the boys did really a sacrifice? Can we argue Himari and Ringo are making the sacrifice by living? The boys escape responsibility and hardships by giving up their lives, handing it instead to the girls who did not want it; for example Himari who now lives in a tiny little house by herself. Look back to Sanetoshi's words about people living sad lives trapped in boxes. Sure, they appear happy but so did the 'siblings' seem happy when we first saw them. The boys walk off, carefree with their little penguins into the stars free of anything tying them down...while Himari is left crying over things she can't quite remember. Maybe I'm getting too abstract. GOSH, I MUST CRUSH IT SOON.

Last edited by YamPuff (12-24-2011 03:37:50 AM)


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#713 | Back to Top12-24-2011 04:39:13 AM

chrisb
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Tx,USA
Registered: 01-18-2010
Posts: 956

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Hiraku wrote:

Hmm...

checking out Ikuni's tweets after Penguindrum has been aired.

Kinda wanna know how he thinks on the matter, but I don't know a lick of Japanese myself :|a

http://gyazo.com/b55e40e8810eda20ae841e90aad2aa7e

http://gyazo.com/ab627e7ba0d327b7539f4c0a8d66af38

http://gyazo.com/f59623c93e292db0ce0399489876a4e5

As crappy as Google translate is, it just showed a lot of thank yous and I guess Ikuhara was either depressed or sick the day of the final episode. Something cool is that it looks like we'll be seeing an official Penguindrum guide released, an artbook/comic, and the Triple H album sold out at a few stores/topped the itunes Japan charts.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/clow987/477571198.jpg

If anyone has seen Video Girl Ai, the final episode of that series and the staircase scene in MPD are similar. The whole fragility of love and the suffering that comes with it. I wonder if Ikuhara drew some inspiration from the show.

edit: After someone pointed out the Night on the Galactic railroad reference, I went back and watched Kenji Miyazawa's "biography" Spring and Chaos. A lot of the messages Miyazawa tried to spread were about sacrificing yourself for others and loving people who need it the most.

Also here is an apple chart!
http://i.imgur.com/bYTw1.jpg

Last edited by chrisb (12-24-2011 05:23:19 AM)


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#714 | Back to Top12-24-2011 08:53:18 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Wow, this is an excellent apple chart! Thanks!

In other note, looks like Chiho Saito has also watched the Penguindrum series: http://gyazo.com/a21a643e6a52bf2fe3c3acbb7bbce120

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#715 | Back to Top12-24-2011 08:56:47 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

I love the apple chart.  If the chart is right, it sure would have been easier to understand what was going on if we'd actually been shown the fractional apple parts along the way.  Every apple we ever saw was a whole apple right up until the last episode.

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#716 | Back to Top12-24-2011 09:36:03 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

YamPuff wrote:

Could it make sense that the Princess of Crystal is Sanetoshi? Don't Himari's eyes turn pink in princess form? It would explain her dirty language and nastiness better IMO than the theory that she's a bad side of Momoka/Himari. And make the idea of Kanba making out with her that much more disturbing/hot. etc-wankgirl

Mmm... I doubt it, actually... because the Princess of the Crystal seems to be trying to prevent the advance of the Dark Bunnies.

YamPuff wrote:

What is the significance of Shouma being Himari's soul mate? They didn't take that idea anywhere, did they? Himari doesn't seem particularly in love with him. Although I'm not sure if she seems in love with Kanba either?

I think what happened to them during their childhood was still something very precious. Otherwise, Himari would not have kept the scarf with her all these times. It's just that they were taken in as siblings, and I don't think Himari ever really considered them as someone whom she'd fall in love with. Soul mate doesn't necessarily have to end up as lovers. As children, they were more like a family than lovers, too.

In other note, I think it's just Himari believing, as a child, that Shouma was her soul mate. Her thoughts/feelings toward him probably changed over time. Before she left, she told Shouma that all these times she "thought" he would have been her soul mate.

YamPuff wrote:

And why does Kanba never save anyone despite his prince complex? When Shouma needs saving he takes a fake diary. He doesn't steal the diary from Ringo. When Himari is dangling by a thread he refuses to divulge information. I personally found his character as frustratingly useless as Shouma.

In his mind, he probably believed that what he was doing was exactly what's necessary to save Himari. He was pretty much blinded by his desire to save her, and Sanetoshi used that to his own advantage. It was probably easier for us outsiders to see that what he's doing is fruitless. It's essentially like Faust, who is on this hopeless spiraling path down to damnation, while Himari/Margaret tried to save him with her life.

YamPuff wrote:

I don't really understand the sibling set-up thing and I also don't get significance or purpose. They're siblings, now they're not, did they forget, are they just pretending, why?

I think Kanba, Shouma, and Himari, all know that they're not really siblings. Kanba and Shouma broke off the sibling relationship once they realized that this relationship they've initially established was actually destroying everything they held dear.

Much of the sibling relationship was also being arranged by Kenzan and Chiemi. I think as kids, they didn't really have much say in the matter. I guess they COULD have been taken in by separate members of the Kiga Corp, but they weren't.

Himari was also probably knowingly participating in this "fake family" facade. During her conversation with Sanetoshi, it seemed to me that it was more of her denial to acknowledge the truth than actually forgetting.

(This reminds me, Yuri also proposed to Tabuki the idea of creating a "Fake family", but in the end, she DID hope to establish a real family with Tabuki)

YamPuff wrote:

WHAT DID THE ENTIRE RINGO-TABUKI SUBPLOT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING TO TAKE UP SO MANY EPISODES? D: I mean, it was amusing as hell, but still...

I think it was what it took to introduce all the key characters as they all come gather around, slowly, pulled by the subtle gravity of "Fate" that is Ringo and her diary. Also, Ringo at the time was using the diary for selfish reasons. It was not until she lost her diary, and having heard Shouma's life story that her mentality changed toward someone more altruistic, someone who was able to get over the fact that her dad is no longer coming home.

YamPuff wrote:

In a more philosophical level, is what the boys did really a sacrifice? Can we argue Himari and Ringo are making the sacrifice by living? The boys escape responsibility and hardships by giving up their lives, handing it instead to the girls who did not want it; for example Himari who now lives in a tiny little house by herself. Look back to Sanetoshi's words about people living sad lives trapped in boxes. Sure, they appear happy but so did the 'siblings' seem happy when we first saw them. The boys walk off, carefree with their little penguins into the stars free of anything tying them down...while Himari is left crying over things she can't quite remember. Maybe I'm getting too abstract. GOSH, I MUST CRUSH IT SOON.

I guess that's one way of putting it. After all, it was from accepting the fruit of fate that Adam and Eve were punished by staying alive. For Himari, living on this "borrowed time" was punishment in itself, such that death would have been merciful.

But then, "punishment" and "reward" are just names that we ourselves use to make sense of a situation (That's why we have the phrase, "blessing in disguise", but only after other things had transpired that we called it that). Maybe Himari and Ringo were left behind because the siblings decided that they can entrust the girls with the continuing task to bring "love" to others.

Early on, for Tabuki and Yuri, they thought that living on without their beloved Momoka was some kind of cruel joke the world is playing on them, while maybe they were left behind because Momoka entrusted them with the task of loving the "unloved", so that something similar to what Sanetoshi is attempting to do will not happen again.

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#717 | Back to Top12-24-2011 10:27:00 AM

yuzukelly
Rose Smilee
Registered: 09-22-2010
Posts: 130

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

chrisb wrote:

If anyone has seen Video Girl Ai, the final episode of that series and the staircase scene in MPD are similar. The whole fragility of love and the suffering that comes with it. I wonder if Ikuhara drew some inspiration from the show.

I actually thought of Video Girl Ai too! (I'm actually really surprised I'm not the only one! XD) I was so excited XD

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#718 | Back to Top12-24-2011 11:30:24 AM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

... why did Ringo push one of Kanba's ex-girlfriends down an escalator?

Was the diary actually a record of things Momoka had experienced, which Ringo was recreating? Or did Momoka write down instructions for Ringo, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy?


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#719 | Back to Top12-24-2011 11:50:55 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

I think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy... not sure if it's Momoka leaving behind instructions for Ringo, or something she meant to follow herself were she alive.

But, from the way Momoka handled the diary, it doesn't seem like she's using it the same way Ringo did. It's more like she's just reading them and watch the events unfold, and only intervene if something bad might happen (ie. someone will die)

In other note, regarding the apple chart... I just realized something that might've been off with the chronology. I think the terrorist attack happened at least 3 years before Himari was born. Because Ringo, Kanba, and Shouma were all born in 1995 the same day the attack happened (Also the day Momoka vanished without a trace)

Himari is a few years younger than the rest of the main cast. So, I think the curse didn't happen after Himari was taken in by Takakura. Rather, the curse happened since she was born. She had a terrible childhood by having a mother who abandoned her, and was meant to have a short life by being crushed in the Child Broiler, but Shouma intervened, so the curse lingered on in the form of an incurable disease instead.

Last edited by Hiraku (12-24-2011 11:51:58 AM)

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#720 | Back to Top12-24-2011 04:53:49 PM

chrisb
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Tx,USA
Registered: 01-18-2010
Posts: 956

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Ragnarok wrote:

... why did Ringo push one of Kanba's ex-girlfriends down an escalator??

That was actually Masako. She was out to get all of Kanba's exes.

yuzukelly wrote:

I actually thought of Video Girl Ai too! (I'm actually really surprised I'm not the only one! XD) I was so excited XD

I'm glad there's someone who has seen that anime other than me! Both scenes were beautiful and touching.


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#721 | Back to Top12-24-2011 09:04:08 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

chrisb wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

... why did Ringo push one of Kanba's ex-girlfriends down an escalator??

That was actually Masako. She was out to get all of Kanba's exes.

Ah, so it was! But the event was in the diary, even though Ringo had no direction connection to it. Hm.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#722 | Back to Top12-24-2011 09:08:44 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Ragnarok wrote:

chrisb wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

... why did Ringo push one of Kanba's ex-girlfriends down an escalator??

That was actually Masako. She was out to get all of Kanba's exes.

Ah, so it was! But the event was in the diary, even though Ringo had no direction connection to it. Hm.

Same for the cat that was written in the diary. And the weird skunk with the penguin seal.
Are all these really non-sequitur, though? :|

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#723 | Back to Top12-25-2011 09:31:06 AM

ArsenicForBreakfast
Pathtracer
From: The Destination of Your Fate
Registered: 10-14-2007
Posts: 340
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Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Hiraku wrote:

Same for the cat that was written in the diary. And the weird skunk with the penguin seal.
Are all these really non-sequitur, though? :|

I'm thinking irony; Ringo's going through all this trouble to recreate the events in the diary (unsuccessfully) and yet similarities to Momoka's experiences keep popping up without her intervention and without her noticing.  Or maybe Momoka was clairvoyant?


I'm a fan of pessimism: if you maintain the lowest expectations possible, they'll always be met or exceeded.

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#724 | Back to Top12-25-2011 09:52:20 AM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

The skunk and the cat weren't Ringo's doing, but they did directly relate to her. The strongest connection she could have in regards to "the girl in the red shoes" is hear about it on the news.

Momoka's definitely clairvoyant to some extent. She knows what will happen to Yuri when first meeting her, among many other things. But she didn't seem to foresee Sanetoshi's ability to interrupt her spell.


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#725 | Back to Top12-25-2011 11:22:48 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6340
Website

Re: Mawaru Penguindrum: Or, YOU WILL BE SPOILED

Completely irrelevant to all the things we've been talking about regarding our favorite penguins....

But I just thought of something.

There are 24 episodes to this series.

24 inverted is "42"

And, in the full opening song for Noruniru, one of the lines Etsuko sang was, "You will disclose secret of the world."

Ikuhara trolled us once again emot-aaa (I know I'm reading too much into this, but still)

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