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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top12-22-2010 08:29:16 AM

tuomastahti
Banned
From: Finland / NSK
Registered: 08-29-2010
Posts: 40
Website

The movie: retelling or sequel?

I have assumed that Adolescence of Utena is a retelling/alternative version of the story and takes place in a continuum that is different from the TV series.

But from this point of view, there is something wrong with the lyrics of the movie song Toki ni ai wa:

"This rose is our destiny, ripping us apart.
Our hands have been torn apart
...
This rose is our destiny, leading us
to now meet once again.
Because I've never forgotten
our promise,
I've finally made it this far."

These lyrics suggest that Utena and Anthy have decided to stick together and also parted before the movie takes place. That is to say, the movie could be the sequel of the TV series. However, I'm not saying that this one song is enough to convince me. Seems like there are four possibilities:

1) Adolescence of Utena is a retelling of the story. The lyrics above can be a simple reference to the existence of the TV series (and why not the manga, too).

2) Adolescence of Utena is a sequel that takes place after the TV series has ended. This theory might give us more questions than answers, like how is the starting point of the film possible if Utena and Anthy have already left Ōtori.

3) Adolescence of Utena is both the sequel and retelling. This way of thinking requires us to perceive time as a cyclical variable instead of a straight line. If history repeats itself with just some small changes – without that we notice it – then this theory can be taken in consideration. This would actually fit the famous Latin phrase "Eadem mutata resurgo" ("Although changed, I shall arise the same") that has a reference in one of the dueling songs. Philosophically this could mean that everything that happens is (pretty much) predetermined.  In order to understand the story of Utena we'll even have to accept some parts of the Hegelian dialectic if we follow this theory... well, in my opinion Hegelian dialectic is clearly inadequate to explain any complex systems.

4) The whole story is so allegorical that this topic can't be reasonably discussed.

For the time being, I'll bet on 1). What kind of thoughts do you have on this subject?

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#2 | Back to Top12-22-2010 09:11:31 AM

Artsychick
Touga Topper
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 11-14-2010
Posts: 51
Website

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

I personally like the explanation at the end of the movie manga. Even though I don’t really like Chiho Saito, (her art style or the boring Utena series manga) how she tied in the movie to the series was pretty awesome. I don’t know if everyone has read the movie manga yet so here’s the spoilers for the end of the manga * The manga ends with series Anthy and Utena in a movie theatre watching the Adolescence of Utena and they are reminded of their own story. * So it can still be seen as a retelling of the original story.


Roses, everywhere! Of every color! In your architecture! In your teacups! In your jam!

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#3 | Back to Top12-22-2010 09:33:31 AM

tuomastahti
Banned
From: Finland / NSK
Registered: 08-29-2010
Posts: 40
Website

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

Artsychick, thank you so much for your reply! I have read most chapters of the Utena manga but haven't found the movie manga.
(What you mentioned sounds actually a bit similar to the arrangement in the TV episode 34.)

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#4 | Back to Top12-22-2010 10:21:25 AM

Malacoda
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 07-26-2009
Posts: 180

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

Or there's option five.

5) The movie is a weird general mishmash of both the original manga and the anime.

Think about it. With a few exception, each of the movie characters (except for Shiori, Nanami, Kanae and the SPG) have a weird mix of their manga and anime counterpart's traits.

Take Akio, example. Anime-Akio is screwing his sister but manga-Akio isn't quite the bastard enough to do something like that. Combine the two together and you get Makio: someone who looks like a manipulative bastard but easily gets second thoughts.

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#5 | Back to Top12-22-2010 10:44:52 AM

Tenjou_sailorsaturn
Someday Shiner
From: Floating Castle
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2417
Website

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

I consider the movie is a retelling of the story instead of the sequel.

The lyric in question:
"This rose is our destiny, ripping us apart.
Our hands have been torn apart
...
This rose is our destiny, leading us
to now meet once again.
Because I've never forgotten
our promise,
I've finally made it this far."

When interpreted from Utena's POV, it is the parting of Touga and herself. And she kept her nobility and purity, thus made it far enough to get to Ohtori Academy, meeting Touga again and her real destiny: to save the princess Anthy.

From Anthy's POV, the rose part is simple: she is the Rose Bride, so she must be destined to roses. And she played out her Bride role very well, for she was waiting for somebody to fulfill the promise--becoming her prince. True, she once had a prince Movie!Akio, but as later shown in the movie, that prince is dead, so, as a princess, she needed to find a new one, and I believe that's the promise she was waiting for somebody to fulfill.

I don't think the lyrics does necessarily refer to the couple/pairing at that moment, it just tells us they would be destined to do something together.

Just my two cent.

Edit: typo.

Last edited by Tenjou_sailorsaturn (12-22-2010 10:45:48 AM)


生命是奇蹟,但是為什麼生活是痛苦的?

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#6 | Back to Top10-20-2015 04:58:58 AM

Zander1995
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 10-02-2015
Posts: 13

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

I have just finished the movie and I'd like to talk about my interpretation of it.

I think the movie itself takes place in a sort of Limbo that was created by Utena's wish to free Anthy, but doing so trapped her within it, removing her from the world of the anime series.

At the end of the TV Anime, Anthy sets out to find Utena. I believe she found a way into Utena's limbo, and when she entered it, Anthy somehow caused the world to change shape to give Utena a way to save both of them, but as a construct outside of reality, it seems to follow an almost sort of dream logic in its recreation of Ohtori Academy and its inhabitants.

Anthy is much more emotive in this world, which seems to hint that she has the experiences of the anime's world, but without the memories that she left it with. Her wish to find Utena overwrote her memories when she entered the Limbo to give Utena a chance to find herself again and escape her punishment for freeing Anthy from the role of the Rose Bride.

The latter half of the film is the Limbo falling apart as Anthy and Utena begin to break free of its hold, and the ones chasing them are like guards attempting to keep them from leaving.

The end, they've finally broken free of the limbo's hold and have left its sphere of influence but have not yet reached their own world again, if they ever will, but they're finally together and free from the trappings of the Rose Duels and the Rose Bride.

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#7 | Back to Top10-20-2015 01:30:20 PM

Aelanie
Black Rosarian
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 377

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

It's a clear retelling, and trying to tie them together in any "in-universe" form is falling into the classic trap of attempting to make EVERYTHING in the franchise part of some Grand Unified Theory of Utena. The differences between the series and movie are vast and fundamental; they are completely distinct from one another, even more than most people realize, since most people plug the "gaps" they perceive in the movie's continuity with pieces of the series, when in fact that's a mistake. The movie can and does make total sense all on its own, as a very different story from the series.

As always (come on, you knew it was coming), I invite people interested in getting very in-depth with understanding the movie to refer to my four character examinations, in which I deconstruct the movie step by step in question-and-answer format by focusing on its four major characters.

Akio
Utena
Anthy
Touga

Best read in that order.

Last edited by Aelanie (10-20-2015 01:42:05 PM)

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#8 | Back to Top10-20-2015 01:55:54 PM

Zander1995
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 10-02-2015
Posts: 13

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

Just because it's a retelling doesn't mean it can't also be a sequel. I've explained why I believe it is a sequel in my post and why it recreated some of the events at Ohtori Academy but why everything is so different. With how surreal the movie is, I just can't take it as "Just a re-telling"

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#9 | Back to Top10-20-2015 04:22:39 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

I still think that the spirit of Fire Walk With Me is on the Utena movie, and that it's both a retelling and a continuation. A developmental sequel, if not a narrative one.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#10 | Back to Top10-20-2015 07:08:58 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

I think it's basically Utena: Do You Remember Love?

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#11 | Back to Top10-20-2015 08:00:16 PM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 506

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

I kind of agree with it being a retelling though. I understand seeing it both ways though.

But in all honesty -- I just think Ikuhara wanted to draw mechs, pretty pictures (emphasis on pretty pictures here) and beautiful music!! It is a bit surreal, but using it as a tool to further examine the characters as a retelling makes the most sense in my head.

But in all honesty -- with ikuhara its all left up to the viewer's interpretation. I think that is why he often doesn't explain much.

Its hard for me to buy it as a sequel because Touga is ... should i use a spoiler tag? sure why not [DED]. It just feels like they borrowed some themes from the manga and the show and put them together to tell a different angle.

I wasn't a huge fan of the movie. I wish we could've explored UtenaxTouga more to have a better understanding of what those feelings were. Utena didn't feel like the same Utena to me either. I dunno i just can't draw the lines in my heads from one to the other.

But god was it a beautiful piece of art to watch. Utena's long flowing hair scenes? just gorgeous. etc-wankgirl

Viewing it as a retelling tells my head "hey look its these familiar characters in a different situation doing osmething similar in a new way" where as seeing it as a sequel just makes me ask a million more questions.

The entire ending sequence of Anthy riding Utena's car out of Ohtori just speaks to me as the retelling of Anthy's mental state at Ohtori of having to use Utena (lawl literally) as the vessel that revolutionized her inner thinking. Utena was the catalyst for that thought and doubt in the school and her brother -- and at the end she uses Utena to pierce right through Akio and set off into her wonderful lesbian journey into the sunset. This to me just shows the battle in Anthy's head more than anything.

I rambled a bit, im bad at getting my thoughts together -- i apologize. Short answer: retelling of Anthy's perspective on things? i guess?

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#12 | Back to Top10-21-2015 02:08:02 PM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 963

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

I'm on the sequel/retelling fence.


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#13 | Back to Top10-21-2015 06:56:18 PM

Arale
Ballgoer
From: collective human consciousness
Registered: 12-07-2014
Posts: 145
Website

Re: The movie: retelling or sequel?

I think it's less of a sequel and more like the actual ending. The show may stand on its own, but it ends inconclusively in a sort of "now you can imagine what Anthy did next!" way. And there's nothing wrong with that, but given how that was followed by Anthy and Utena meeting again in this movie... well, it definitely gives a much better end to it the way I see it. The fact that said ending had to happen in an entirely different continuity seems to emphasize the struggle that Anthy and Utena have to go through to be happy and together (and nicely parallels the fact that Ikuhara needed an entirely different continuity in order to express just how together Anthy and Utena were.)

See also the fact that Akio is dead in the movie, because he's already been defeated by Anthy in the series. The series is the story of Anthy having to break free of Akio, and the movie is of her trying to overcome her traumatic memories. This is why Akio appears alive again, because it is actually Anthy's trauma. Anthy is already free to express her own emotions at the beginning of the movie, though. If this were a retelling of the same story, then it would be about her having to break free but that's already happened by the time Utena and Anthy meet up in the movie, as Akio is dead and Anthy doesn't fake her emotions. So it doesn't make symbolic sense to only be a retelling. The fact that its the continuation to the story makes a lot more sense.


im a shadow play girl irl

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