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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top12-15-2010 04:34:59 PM

allegoriest
Delicious Duellist
From: Cloudcuckooland
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2506
Website

And in the end~

Okay.
Popular opinion states that Utena 'ascends to a higher plane of existence.'

Why?

What evidence is there to show this?
I have seen none. Is this denial?

I think she dies. The end.
Anthy leaves to find her, and wanders the rest of her life and/or all eternity thinking "I'll find her tomorrow. I know it!"
Everyone else forgets, and Akio has a possible eternity of misery.

(I also don't think she actually saved Anthy. I think Anthy just woke up and smelt the roses, but whatever.) Even so, I don't think her actually achieving anything would make her not die. (I'd talk about other characters and death right here, but that is off track.)

But, WHY? Where did this idea come from?
(Also, I'm probably gonna be kinda... not here in thread. I'll send someone else in every once in a while.)


I also included a picture. Because I'm like that.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/leeness/Untitled-1.png


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/leeness/Ruka--Juri-banner-1.png

Only a lemming must be concerned with the ends of the world.

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#2 | Back to Top12-16-2010 01:34:22 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: And in the end~

allegoriest wrote:

Okay.
Popular opinion states that Utena 'ascends to a higher plane of existence.'

I didn't know this. Is that really the most popular belief? Maybe I've just been out of the discussion threads for too long, but I don't recall it being the prevalent theory on IRG.

allegoriest wrote:

(I also don't think she actually saved Anthy. I think Anthy just woke up and smelt the roses, but whatever.)

It probably depends on your definition, but in my head having Anthy wake up is saving her. To put it another way, Utena just pointed to the door enough for Anthy to see it. She opened the coffin enough for Anthy to want to leave it. It's not the kind of saving that whisks a damsel away from a dragon, it's a sort of saving that requires the other person to want to be saved; or rather to save themselves.

allegoriest wrote:

But, WHY? Where did this idea come from?
(Also, I'm probably gonna be kinda... not here in thread. I'll send someone else in every once in a while.)

I can't help you with that, I didn't even know it was widely believed. emot-frown Unless you look at Ohtori as being a different plane of existence than regular reality, and also lower than reality. But that's really more of a movie thing.

Personally I think Utena survived and left Ohtori and Anthy found her and they were happy. Probably because that's what I want to believe. emot-smile


allegoriest wrote:

I also included a picture. Because I'm like that.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/le … tled-1.png

Is it possible to make a picture where the font is the lighter part of the picture? Like everything else was dimmed except the letters. Because I remember trying forever to make an effect like that years ago.... I think it was a picture of Touga, too.

... too lazy to play around with paint programs, but pretend I did and put "SOMEDAY TOGETHER, THEY SHONE" over this one:

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/17128-1/Series_ep39_315.jpg


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/RagnarokIII/spyschool.jpg

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#3 | Back to Top12-16-2010 03:04:15 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: And in the end~

I don't know what happens to Utena, and I think that's the point.  Maybe she dies; we sure do see a lot of swords plunging at her, don't we?  Maybe she ascends to a higher plane of existence, though I'm not sure where we'd get that idea from.  And maybe she survives somewhere outside Ohtori; that seems to be Anthy's opinion, and Anthy presumably knows more about the metaphysics of the situation than we do.  I prefer to think that Anthy's right, because giving Utena a "Bad End" doesn't seem in the (subjective) spirit of the show.  That said, I think it's still a good story if Utena's dead or if Utena and Anthy never find each other.  I think the show very intentionally ends on a question, so as to make the point that Anthy's decision to leave was brave and strong whether or not Utena is out there.  It would have been trivial for Ikuni to put in a Harry Potter epilogue that showed how everything worked out in the end, but he didn't.  That was on purpose.

I hope Utena's alive, but she's certainly alive in Anthy.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i117/satyreyes/utena-lives.png

[[Additionally, hooray for my first post ever using GIMP!  Amateurish though this is -- thank you, Leni!]]

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#4 | Back to Top12-16-2010 06:35:43 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Re: And in the end~

Is it bad that when I say the first image, the one thing that I thought of (and I blame TV Tropes for this) is "Aerith Dies?" Regardless of the original message (and my personal canon), just seeing that totally made my day. emot-keke


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#5 | Back to Top12-16-2010 10:52:29 PM

76089172
Saionji Slapper
From: sacramento
Registered: 04-25-2010
Posts: 26

Re: And in the end~

maybe death is too harsh of a word for other fans to hear..

would "utena reincarnates" work better for some than "utena dies"?  (that's what came to mind reading this topic yesterday)


don't think twice

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#6 | Back to Top12-17-2010 07:11:17 AM

Riddle of Epicurus
Miki Molester
Registered: 12-12-2010
Posts: 33

Re: And in the end~

If the all-knowing witch says she's alive, that's good enough for me.  :p  Besides, we see the swords stab Anthy plenty, and they never so much as draw a single drop of blood. I read that as meaning their power is to inflict pain, NOT physical harm. After all, they are really just a symbol for society's scorn, and that alone can't kill you.

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#7 | Back to Top12-17-2010 04:05:27 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2346

Re: And in the end~

I don't think the popular opinion is that she ascends to a higher plane of existence. I think it's that she just lives in the outside world.

However, I like to think that she is in the real world as a goddess right now and will slowly make it a better place as well once she reunites with Anthy. Utena's special because she is the  first and only person to break the cycle at Ohtori.  (Some people like to think Ruka might have too, but I don't because there's no indication that things improved during his absence.) It's only fit that such a revolutionary person evolved to me.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#8 | Back to Top12-17-2010 07:49:04 PM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Re: And in the end~

Since when? I've never even heard that one before emot-gonk

As with most things, I'm both a realist and an optimist; I hope Utena survives, but I assume she's either dead, or it's going to take Anthy a hell of a long time to find her.

I used to think we're not meant to know, but I read somewhere that Ikuhara said in an interview the photo and the shot of Utena and Anthy's clasped hands after the credits is supposed to signify they find each other again; not sure, but I'll have to look it up again.

And the accompanying picture is offensive, disturbing, and morbid; good one emot-rofl


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#9 | Back to Top12-18-2010 05:04:51 AM

tuomastahti
Banned
From: Finland / NSK
Registered: 08-29-2010
Posts: 40
Website

Re: And in the end~

allegoriest wrote:

Okay.
Popular opinion states that Utena 'ascends to a higher plane of existence.'

Never heard that one before. The Ōtori academy represents childhood/youth as a state of mind. When Utena lost Anthy and said "I guess that in the end I couldn't be the prince" she left her childish dreams behind and became an adult. Therefore she left the school (well, Nanami also left the academy in the curry episode but that was just a filler and a short journey). The swords in the last episode represent hatred and revulsion and can't physically kill Utena.

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#10 | Back to Top12-19-2010 01:23:20 PM

innermuse
Anthy Assailer
From: In my own little world
Registered: 11-16-2010
Posts: 77
Website

Re: And in the end~

In my opinion, i think Ohtori is one big giant illusion or allegory of adolescence. From rewatching, to me it seems like the characters are stuck in way or another. Even Miss Utena was stuck in her own little dillussion for a while until she final said oh yeah this is not just about me and wound up doing something a bit selfless.

Any how i think Utena succeeds, Anthy who was trapped in her little allegory coffin of self pity over stealing the world away from its prince. Instead of relying on a prince, she became a vehicle of change her self, which i think is the over all theme of the show. We can just rely upon other to go saving or taking care of things for us. We have to break the stereotypical roles and order of the world ( ie the revolution) in order to bring about any change.

I think when Utena breaks the coffin, that fantasy world breaks and she is able to live in a real world and is free from the illusions of Ohtori.

Just my crazy lil thoughts.

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#11 | Back to Top12-19-2010 03:08:27 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Re: And in the end~

I see it as simple as Utena dies to Ohtori and to a world of illusions and "changes address" to the real world.  I kind of saw her as "dead" in that sense, but I don't at all believe that Anthy could/would never find Utena, meaning actually meet up with her in the physical sense.

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#12 | Back to Top12-20-2010 04:10:29 PM

Gainel
Rose Bride
Registered: 07-08-2010
Posts: 116

Re: And in the end~

As Anthy said, she didn't disappear, just left Ohtori.
I actually think that if you die in Ohtori you just get into "the outside world"...basically just the real world, since Ohtori is definitely very SURreal.

UTENA LIVVVESSSSS!! and anthy will find her!! emot-biggrin


Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing not to put it on a fruit salad.

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#13 | Back to Top12-22-2010 03:25:42 AM

Absolute Apocalypse
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 08-24-2010
Posts: 25

Re: And in the end~

If this were a realistic cartoon I'd think she died too...

But seeing that the creators of this anime couldn't lay off the drugs even during the last episode, I'm under the impression that everything happened inside Himemiya's mind and Utenasama could be back if she wanted. She's a witch after all.

At the end what matters is what you want to believe is canon. Much like their relationship, you know, Sapphic romance or Best Friends Forever... in less than 20 episodes.

Its your choice.

Last edited by Absolute Apocalypse (12-22-2010 03:30:59 AM)


"Challenging the sword of dios with a simple bamboo practice sword?" etc-saiowank

Always do things the saionji way.

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#14 | Back to Top12-24-2010 07:36:13 PM

Cyrias
Tenjou Tilter
From: Exploring the psyche
Registered: 10-04-2009
Posts: 83

Re: And in the end~

I would hate to think Prince Utena got stabbed by the swords of Hate emot-gonk,  so I think she 'died' in a metaphysical sense, just like a certain Elijah, who was taken to another dimension without having being perished. school-eng101

In short, Elijah did this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entering_heaven_alive

Last edited by Cyrias (12-24-2010 07:37:27 PM)


In lumine tuo, videbimus amor ('In your light, we shall love') Slippy slippery mambo~ everyone at Ohtori is in some kind of spiritual land, created by Goddess Anthy and her brother Akio?!

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#15 | Back to Top12-28-2010 08:37:35 AM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1107

Re: And in the end~

It does not matter if Utena is alive or not. Utena's story was about her journey to become or find her prince. She did both, her story is ended. On the other hand, Anthy's has just begun. The fact that Anthy searches for her in "the real world", I think, is enough. Just as the search for the holy grail is not entirely about it/her, but the quest in itself.

"It is the question that drives us."

So be driven.


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#16 | Back to Top12-28-2010 09:25:25 AM

yuzukelly
Rose Smilee
Registered: 09-22-2010
Posts: 130

Re: And in the end~

i've always thought they found each other, my interpretation of the picture at the end was that anthy had found utena. so i thought that utena must have went to the outside world where anthy was going to emot-keke

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#17 | Back to Top12-28-2010 04:30:02 PM

Saito Hoshikawa
Thorn of Death
From: Satan's armpit in Texas
Registered: 12-27-2010
Posts: 480

Re: And in the end~

It always seemed to me that the world of Ohtori was a bit separated from the rest of the world. I read somewhere that the city around the academy was basically built around the academy, like the academy was a crown jewel or something. If that's so, then it would seem that Ohtori's a bit more than just a city or a school; it's a whole other world or plane of existence separate from reality. (This has also led me to believe that it's something like an underworld or a metaphysical limbo, seeing as how no one physically ages during the series, despite a birthday, maybe.)

With this said, if Utena really did ascend to a "higher plane of existence", it could mean that she moved on to the real world to live a true life outside of Ohtori, and Anthy followed upon breaking free of her ties to Akio (Think "Breaking Free" from High School Musical. *sorry*). (Expand upon that however you wish, since I'm too lazy to do so right now.)

However, thinking back to when she lost her parents, it's also quite possible, in some weird sense, that she "died" of a broken heart then, was met by her "prince" (which could've been a weird form of the Grim Reaper, or a Guardian Angel), which drove her to enter Ohtori (limbo) to find that prince. Now, if I remember correctly, a translation for the name Akio was from the Japanese name for Venus, which through its other name "The Morning Star" is tied to Lucifer, who, if one thinks in Christianity terms, is also known as the devil. (This, maybe then, can be seen as Akio trying to send Utena to hell for the sake of World Revolution, which can be in some way an attempt to take over the middle between Heaven and Hell.)

Now, Anthy can be seen as either a fallen angel or a captured/possessed soul, and with Utena seeing that, she fought to protect Anthy from Akio and anyone else who tried to get in their way. In the last episode, the swords could've been seen as Akio's attempt to keep Anthy in Hell, and Utena's breaking of Anthy's "coffin" could have been the way that saved Anthy from Hell, to truly protect her from what held her back, and the swords getting Utena could be Akio's final attempt to defeat Utena, who at this point may have taken on a more "god-like" aspect to Anthy (with Dios being a type of guardian angel to Utena, and his name meaning "God" in Spanish, and him having helped Utena on numerous occasions). But when the swords got Utena, Anthy must've seen Utena move on to the "higher plane of existence", which, if you follow what I just continued on, would maybe mean Heaven, so her leaving of Ohtori may have meant that Anthy is also going to Heaven to be with Utena. (And the Ending picture of them holding hands could be a sign that they found each other in the end.)

(MY GOD, I haven't written that much since the CT Connections page on DCJ. XD)

Last edited by Saito Hoshikawa (12-28-2010 04:30:50 PM)


"You know I have to question your sanity when I realize your eyes are focusing in on the ass of what is supposed to be a steam train engine." "Yes, I know it seems weird, but you gotta admit; it's a damn fine piece of supposedly rusted iron ass."

"Note how amazing they look in the '87 pictures but then look like they're taking mugshots for prison in the '90 pictures."

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#18 | Back to Top12-28-2010 04:46:08 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: And in the end~

I like to keep it a mystery, personally.
Maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

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