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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top08-15-2010 01:55:48 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Episodes 14 and 22

Guys, maybe I'm very late to the party (also, hello everyone!), but I just realized something the other day, and now I cannot sleep.

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/9170-1/Series_ep22_159.jpg

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/5832-1/Series_ep14_049.jpg

Okay, is Mikage bringing Miki to the same place where he saw Akio and Tokiko making out? Is he sitting where Akio was sitting?

It could not be the exact same place, but it damn looks like.

Aside of this scene being completely un-related to the rest of the saga (Mikage meeting Miki? What for?) and all those body-language analysis, this bugs the hell out of me. And I would like to hear some opinions. (now, once again, if I'm late to the party just---- ignore this. I wouldn't be bothered, it would just, you know, break my heart).

Last edited by Epi_lepsia (08-15-2010 02:05:31 AM)

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#2 | Back to Top08-15-2010 09:34:07 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

Hmm, I will think about this some more but what I see right off, is that yes, it seems to be the same place, changed to show the passage of time. Poor Mikage, he is trying an ATTEMPTED "seduction", trying to get Miki to join his "seminar". Maybe he thinks if he sits in Akio's place where Akio was successful in his own seduction, it gives he, Mikage, some more mojo. But alas, he is not Akio and Miki turns him down. Another defeat for Mikage. Makes it even sadder.

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#3 | Back to Top08-15-2010 09:51:56 AM

haelsyx
Caretaker
From: sunlit state
Registered: 10-09-2009
Posts: 211
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

Hah, never noticed this either, it looks like the first one happens near sunset and the meeting with Miki takes place in the morning.

Maybe it represents the exit of Nemuro's sanity, and the dawning of Mikage?

Last edited by haelsyx (08-15-2010 09:53:12 AM)


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Its an odd thing, but anyone who disappears is said to be in San Francisco-Oscar Wilde.
Anyone get the feeling finding Utena is going to be a lot like where in the world is Carmen San Diego?

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#4 | Back to Top08-15-2010 11:55:57 AM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

It's definitely the same place, the only differences are the lighting and the view, closer and a little higher in the scene with Miki.

Obviously Mikage wanted Miki to sit on his lap... In terms of appearance, Miki is probably the closest to what Mamiya actually looked like.

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/9684-1/Series_ep23_198.jpg

Of course that would be a buried, subconscious comparison in a buried, subconscious personality.


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#5 | Back to Top08-15-2010 01:31:02 PM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

I just don't see the point for the plot of this. What are they trying to tell us? Is Mikage really a pedophile? Is he semi conscious of his loneliness, and therefore, that Mamiya is not really that over tanned boy? Is he trying to team up with someone real? I DON'T KNOW.

The thing is, it is clear that Mikage is trying to seduce Miki. I just don't get why.

Anyway, Miki is a party pooper. I would kill to see them making out.


EDIT: Also, I believe Miki does sleep with his piano teacher. Why would he reject Mikage? It it shown to us at the begining of the same saga (actually, the next episode) the possibility of Miki sleeping with his teacher. And it's the first duellist that Mikage goes after, just the next episode where he rejected him.

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/6168-1/Series_ep15_015.jpg
I couldn't find a screencap where the teacher grabs Miki closer to him from his waist, to whisper him something in his ear and make him laugh.

You can see it in Kozue's eyes. He's almost grabbing his butt http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/6164-1/Series_ep15_013.jpg .

Last edited by Epi_lepsia (08-15-2010 01:59:18 PM)

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#6 | Back to Top08-15-2010 04:29:41 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

Meta-ly I think it's done to further establish Mikage's character, since this is his introductory episode. First we see him in the basement with Mamiya, then we learn he does 'favors' for random businessmen; followed by Miki declining to join the seminar in the connecting scene.

The first gives Mikage his motivation for getting involved at that point in the story, after thirteen espisodes which never mentioned his existence. Touga's out of the picture, with the student council in disarray, it's the ideal time to strike.

The second shows that he's exceedingly intelligent and devious, surpassing the adults he deals with and holding them in debt rather than accepting payment for his services.

And the third establishes the connection between Mikage and the cast of the show. Miki's already the in-between character for Utena and the council which is specifically used after he exits the hall, when Utena and Anthy find him. Miki's the one who first mentions the one hundred dead duellists. And, whether it was planned at the time or not, this bookends with Mikage's final episode where it's again Miki in the same site but unable to quite recall the details.

As for Miki and the piano teacher... I don't know, if they had sexual relations it seems unlikely he'd be comfortable showing such closeness in public. Not to mention his hangups about adults, though that isn't explicitly mentioned for another twelve episodes.


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#7 | Back to Top08-15-2010 07:25:33 PM

Nebula
Miki Molester
Registered: 06-01-2010
Posts: 39

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

Personally, I always thought that the thing with Miki and his piano teacher was something he went along with sort of to get revenge on Kozue.  I don't recall whether or not he saw her there (it's been a while since I've seen the episode), but either way, maybe he thought of it as a way to give her a taste of her own medicine.  I don't think he would've gone along with it if not for that.

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#8 | Back to Top08-15-2010 11:10:50 PM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

I don't really think this scene with Miki it's only for introducing us the character. They could use pretty much anyone to introduce the story of the murdered students. (And I must admit bringing the debate of Miki and his piano teacher is rather off topic).

So. When Mikage brings Miki to the same place, it's like if he wanted to be Akio and wanted Miki to be Tokiko.

Akio made out with Tokiko in order to manipulate Nemuro.
Mikage wants to make out with Miki in order to ....???

Last edited by Epi_lepsia (08-15-2010 11:12:29 PM)

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#9 | Back to Top08-17-2010 09:52:45 PM

Android raptor
Rose Smilee
From: North GA, USA
Registered: 08-11-2009
Posts: 126
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Re: Episodes 14 and 22

Ragnarok wrote:

Meta-ly I think it's done to further establish Mikage's character, since this is his introductory episode. First we see him in the basement with Mamiya, then we learn he does 'favors' for random businessmen

Sorry to be pointless and off-topic, but my mind went very elsewhere with this and is far more excited than it should be by the mental imagery brought forth.




Hey, guess that explains the Manet homage![/bad joke]

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#10 | Back to Top08-18-2010 11:23:32 AM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

Wow, I NEVER noticed this. I always recognized it was the same area as where Mikage saw Akio with Tokikio, and I always felt like something was a really familiar with that scene... but I never actually stopped to make the connection. I think it was definitely intentional.

I don't think its necessarily about Mikage wanting to make-out with Miki (although you could interpret it that way - Miki would be the candidate for it, being that he is a young boy) especially since Miki is sitting across from Mikage and not in his lap. emot-tongue I think its more about where Mikage is sitting... where Akio was sitting. It speaks volumes of how Mikage is trying to become like Akio, or at least someone more like Akio. Powerful, manipulative, more sociable than Nemuro, and seductive, perhaps?

(Off-topic again, but I tend to think Miki never slept with his piano teacher at all... I think he's just completely oblivious to the manipulation/abuse of adults.  Maybe there should be a thread for that topic...)


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
And you've just gotta keep on keeping on"

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#11 | Back to Top08-18-2010 12:14:02 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I don't think its necessarily about Mikage wanting to make-out with Miki (although you could interpret it that way - Miki would be the candidate for it, being that he is a young boy) especially since Miki is sitting across from Mikage and not in his lap. emot-tongue I think its more about where Mikage is sitting... where Akio was sitting. It speaks volumes of how Mikage is trying to become like Akio, or at least someone more like Akio. Powerful, manipulative, more sociable than Nemuro, and seductive, perhaps?

Yes, totally agree. He's trying to emulate Akio. Akio even gives him his own version of Anthy to keep him running down that path too. Anthy is playing Mamiya, Mikage's wannabe Rose Bride.

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#12 | Back to Top08-18-2010 01:48:29 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

I tend to agree with SDF on all counts here -- I don't specifically think Mikage wanted to mack on Miki in this scene, though that isn't to say I don't think we're supposed to get that impression. To be honest, Mikage is portrayed throughout his arc as highly sexualised, although in counterpoint to Touga's easy playboy figure in the preceding arc, Mikage shows a darker aspect: he is obsessive and clearly gives off the aura of something of a creeper. emot-rolleyes Yes, Mikage's interaction with Miki is clearly sexualised, but then most of his interactions with other people are. I'd have to watch the arc properly again to be more specific, but from the beginning you can see it in the powerplay with the teachers, the fact Mamiya is dressing himself in their first episode together, the way he flirts with Nanami in front of Tsuwabuki, the creepy way he talks to Saionji in the dorm room...these are all very, very opposite to the way Nemuro would behave, which of course we don't find out until the end. Mikage is the manifestation of Nemuro's repressed sexual desire, among other things, and now that he's out he's making the most of it. Though I certainly won't deny that the way it manifests with Miki is probably because Mikage has a thing for destitute orphan boys...er, younger men. emot-rofl But yeah, from a narrative standpoint, Mikage's sexuality mixed with obsession and manipulation is clearly a prelude for the audience later getting mindfucked by Akio. school-devil

As for Miki and the piano teacher...I don't think they ever did anything, really. I think honestly in that scene that Miki was trying to hurt Kozue's feelings by using body language to say "Hey, look, I can have fun without you too!" The piano teacher is probably more relevant in the sense Kozue doesn't need a teacher anymore because she quit playing, so it's a bit of a nasty jab. In reality, the teacher has totally got a boner and thinks it's his fucking lucky day. Miki's later conversation with Mikage (or was it before then?) is just an echo of Miki's seeming obliviousness to sex, although he seems more attuned to Mikage's signals. We also know Miki DOES realise things about sex, he just...doesn't want to acknowledge them. I'd try to do deeper with this (emot-rofl) but to be honest, Miki's not one of the characters I tend to analyse much. Although to be honest, maybe I should, as I really shouldn't have anything else to say about Mikage after all I've wanked on about him... poptart

Oh, and Android raptor, that's not really OT at all -- the equation of Mikage with Manet's prostitute is valid no matter how you look at it. As I said Mikage's been sexualised in his arc, and his body isn't really his own; he's Akio's "imaginary living body" and even though he's convinced himself he wants to do all these things, he's doing it for Akio's benefit and not his own. Poor bastard. The "god" genius has been repainted as a whore. emot-frown (Which in some ways almost reflects the dichotomy of Miki and Kozue...)


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#13 | Back to Top08-18-2010 11:42:45 PM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

Clarice wrote:

Yes, Mikage's interaction with Miki is clearly sexualised, but then most of his interactions with other people are. From the beginning you can see it in the powerplay with the teachers, the fact Mamiya is dressing himself in their first episode together, the way he flirts with Nanami in front of Tsuwabuki, the creepy way he talks to Saionji in the dorm room...these are all very, very opposite to the way Nemuro would behave, which of course we don't find out until the end. Mikage is the manifestation of Nemuro's repressed sexual desire, among other things, and now that he's out he's making the most of it.

The equation of Mikage with Manet's prostitute is valid no matter how you look at it. Poor bastard. The "god" genius has been repainted as a whore.

etc-loveetc-loveetc-loveetc-loveetc-love

I think I can sleep now. Thank you so much poptart

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#14 | Back to Top08-19-2010 01:42:34 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

Epi_lepsia wrote:

I think I can sleep now. Thank you so much poptart

I wish I could. emot-rofl Now I just want to watch the Black Rose Arc and analyse Miki and Kozue in general. Dammit! school-devil


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#15 | Back to Top08-19-2010 04:08:19 AM

Cyrias
Tenjou Tilter
From: Exploring the psyche
Registered: 10-04-2009
Posts: 83

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

It  looks like Mikage wants to seduce Miki with his womanising ways... oh wait, that's Akio's seat. No one shall emot-tongue sits there school-sherlock


In lumine tuo, videbimus amor ('In your light, we shall love') Slippy slippery mambo~ everyone at Ohtori is in some kind of spiritual land, created by Goddess Anthy and her brother Akio?!

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#16 | Back to Top08-23-2010 03:52:29 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

In the first shot, the back wall is straight. In the second, the glass windows seem to be at an angle, implying a corner behind the pillar. Is it just me?

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#17 | Back to Top08-23-2010 09:40:59 PM

RhythmFusion
Rose Smilee
Registered: 03-18-2010
Posts: 131

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

No, I noticed that too.


"But screw your courage to the sticking place, and we'll not fail." ~ Lady Macbeth; Macbeth - Act One, Scene 7
"Crying is such hypocrisy. How can happiness cause the same reaction as sadness? Does pleasure share the same edge of the blade of life as pain?" - What His Crimson Eyes Believe in: Ch. 2

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#18 | Back to Top08-24-2010 04:12:44 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Episodes 14 and 22

minervana wrote:

In the first shot, the back wall is straight. In the second, the glass windows seem to be at an angle, implying a corner behind the pillar. Is it just me?

I wonder?

I can't recall off the top of my head, but the first scene with Akio and Tokikio was supposed to take place in Nemuro Memorial Hall, wasn't it? And given that the hall itself appears ruined when Mikage doesn't want people to see it, I think it'd be easy to make the leap from 'appears ruined' to 'really is ruined'. Akio's tower is fucking huge, and the combined magic of Anthy and the projector can make people see what Anthy and Akio want them to see. It'd be easy to make the case that every scene set in the Hall is actually in the Tower, with the projector supplying the illusion. The differences between the two shots could be a subtle clue that the first scene is taking place in the true Hall, while the second happens in the fake Hall which is actually the Tower; even though the room looks the same it really isn't.

Or it could be be more of the infamous shoddy animation. What the hell.

In regards to Miki and the piano teacher, I honestly believe that Miki has no idea of what the piano teacher is thinking, or how inappropriate the situation is, or that he is being preyed upon. I also think that he's pretty much clueless on just about all forms of sexuality. I'm of the (vastly outnumbered) camp that Miki and Kozue DIDN'T play Mothers and Fathers or Doctors and Nurses as kids. I do think that Kozue is doing all she can to hammer the concept of sexuality into his pretty little skull, but she's cunning enough to realise that if she made an overt move he'd react badly. He has to be manipulated into doing it himself. Kozue is very hypersexualised, and Miki is the only other person in the world she gives a flying fuck about, therefore she wants to have him to herself in every possible way. Sex- or messy, miserable attempted sex- is definitely in their future. I really don't think it's in their past, and I really don't think Miki understands (at that stage) what either Kozue or the piano teacher want from him.

Last edited by crystalwren (08-24-2010 04:32:03 AM)

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