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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top12-08-2006 10:51:04 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Did Ruka Die?

Uhh... I think the title kind of says it all.

Admittedly, I am in the camp of people who think Ruka did, in fact, die. However, I also think there is certainly a lot to be discussed in regards to whether he actually perished or not. After all, he could simply have just perished from the world of Ohtori and not the outside world.

On the other hand, Ruka is remembered - well, or at least, it is implied that he is remembered, although no one ever mentions him again so one could argue he has been. But in the case of Mikage and Utena, it is made clear to the audience that they were both forgotten, so the fact that the audience is never shown explicitly that Ruka is forgotten could mean that he isn't. I digress, though - the end of episode 29 to me indicates that at the very least Juri hasn't forgotten him. And if he isn't forgotten, I don't think he merely left Ohtori.

But he could be a rare case of being able to leave Ohtori and not being forgotten. And given that he was off-campus for medical treatment and no one forgot him, maybe it is possible to leave Ohtori and be remembered. But, then again, maybe you have to return to Ohtori in order for the people there to remember you.

But I think he died.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#2 | Back to Top12-08-2006 10:54:01 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Yeah, I'm pretty much certain he died. There's no real reason to think he didn't.

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#3 | Back to Top12-08-2006 10:55:30 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Yeah, but some people would argue he didn't 'cause the SPG's don't give the truth in straight terms.


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#4 | Back to Top12-08-2006 11:48:15 PM

Nessy
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 169
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Yes.

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#5 | Back to Top12-08-2006 11:57:59 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

A Day Without Me wrote:

Yeah, but some people would argue he didn't 'cause the SPG's don't give the truth in straight terms.

Of course they don't. Everything they say in the series is heavily slanted. But the fact he vanished, we know he was sick in the hospital, and he isn't treated like anyone else who "left Ohtori" indicates pretty heavily he died.

If he'd just realised "Wow, I not only blew any chance I ever could have had with Juri, I made it manifestly clear I didn't deserve to have any chance with her" and taken off, one assumes he would have gotten a Mikage sendoff instead.

Also, Juri's last words to him seem much more fitting if he's dead, rather than if he'd slunk off.

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#6 | Back to Top12-09-2006 12:33:16 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Blade wrote:

Also, Juri's last words to him seem much more fitting if he's dead, rather than if he'd slunk off.

I think you're right. But I also get an impression that Juri actually thinks he's alive.


The Saionji Support Squad:
Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

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#7 | Back to Top12-09-2006 01:27:32 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Did Ruka Die?

I think he died. From what we know, I'd guess that he had cancer. And I think he'd needed to die. If he wasn't dying he wouldn't have been able to do what he did.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#8 | Back to Top12-09-2006 05:12:01 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Did Ruka Die?

I'm fairly sure that he died. Akio gave him a chance, of sorts, to be healthy for a short time in Ohtori and use that time as well as he could, which he did for Juri's sake, but also served Akio's purposes by adding yet two another duels to Utena's count. As for the Shadowgirls, they can well add layers of hidden meanings, even if the message itself appears perfectly straightforward, and still not lie about the matter, itself. The Ruka episodes lose much of their dramatic meaning, if he didn't die, at the end.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#9 | Back to Top12-09-2006 06:43:28 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

No doubt.

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#10 | Back to Top12-09-2006 12:23:42 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Did Ruka Die?

To be honest, I don't think that he really died. His death was symbolic, as well as the illness itself. I'm not really sure what it is that it symbolizes, but I'm certain that it does symbolize something. He returned to the academy despite his "illness" in order to save Juri, right? And once she was saved, he could finally "die" at peace. Sometimes, things like this can be misleading when it comes to symbolism. Take episode 26 for example. We see Miki talking to his father, and see shortly after that Anthy is his new mother. Though we see them together, and they say that she is his new mother, it's actually just symbolic. Miki sees Anthy as a replacement for his twin sister, as well as his mother.

Symbolism makes things difficult sometimes, because you can listen to what they say, or the deeper meaning behind their words. For example, in episode 19, Tatsuya says, "The times when she seems the happiest, Tenjou-san, it's when she's with you." Though he is talking about Wakaba, the camera angle abruptly turns to Anthy, who is smiling. One could assume that she is shown because this line refers to Anthy as well, and not so that we don't forget that she's here. However, if for some reason you were debating whether or not Anthy was really the happiest when she was around Utena, you couldn't very well say, "Of course she's happiest when she's with Utena! The camera angle changes to show Anthy during this scene." That isn't a very convincing argument.

Isn't that annoying? ):<

Symbolism is a method that is often used to express a characters true feelings, because you'll never get a straight answer out of them. In any other anime, we would hear characters thinking throughout the entire episode to learn how they really feel, but instead, we get symbolism. An example of this that relates to Ruka is during his car ride with Juri. It shows the angle changes over to Ruka as Juri says, "I don't need my feelings to be known. (And even if I gain the power to work miracles, all I desire) is to release her from you. That's all." This could relate to Ruka, and how he doesn't plan to use the power of miracles to make his feelings known, but to release Juri from her.

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#11 | Back to Top12-09-2006 02:18:17 PM

skewed_tartan
Touga Topper
From: El Terra De Richard Nixon
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 55
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

I'm in the "The death is symbolic" category. Why? Because first of all it was delivered far too bluntly to fit in with the rest of the shows motifs and by the Shadow Girls too! Like thsoe two have ever said anything that isn't wrapped in layers of symbolism and wordplay. Death in Ohtori seems to carry the metaphor for moving on. Mikage could leave after he realized what had truly happened in the past, and Utena could when she finally achieved her purpose in that world. Ruka seems to have achieved his aim and it is likely like the other deaths it merely means he could go beyond the closed world of Ohtori. Utena isn't a show about absolutes, its about possibilities that lay in our range but often out of reach.

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#12 | Back to Top12-09-2006 02:22:13 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Razara wrote:

To be honest, I don't think that he really died. His death was symbolic, as well as the illness itself. I'm not really sure what it is that it symbolizes, but I'm certain that it does symbolize something. He returned to the academy despite his "illness" in order to save Juri, right? And once she was saved, he could finally "die" at peace.

In the car ride Ruka talks about how you can't gain the power of miracles without a sacrifice. (Thinking similar to Mikage's, but anyway.) Even though he sacrifices Shiori's feelings for his own ends, in the case of Juri's duel it's Ruka himself who would be the sacrifice. Additionally or alternately, Ruka's entire return to Ohtori is his sacrifice for Juri's sake.

Since one of the main concepts of the series is that of growing up, losing your innocence to enter the adult world, it would mean Ruka's giving up the rest of his adolesence to help make Juri's more bearable.

A Day Without Me wrote:

But he could be a rare case of being able to leave Ohtori and not being forgotten. And given that he was off-campus for medical treatment and no one forgot him, maybe it is possible to leave Ohtori and be remembered. But, then again, maybe you have to return to Ohtori in order for the people there to remember you.

I think there's something to that. As soon as Saionji's expelled everybody seems to forget about him and go on with their lives. Even though Nanami should logically hate him for hurting Touga, she places all the blame on Utena instead. When Saionji finally returns she shows no hard feelings towards him. It's also not until his imminent return that anyone talks about him, and when they do it's in the same manner they speak about Utena in the final episode. Ruka only makes an impression on the student body while he's physically there, before he returned and after he leaves no one gives him a second thought.

Anyway, Ruka's fate will probably always be open to interpretation. emot-smile


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#13 | Back to Top12-09-2006 07:55:26 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Razara wrote:

He returned to the academy despite his "illness" in order to save Juri, right?

For a certain definition of "save" Juri that includes hurting her, hurting the person she loves, sexually molesting her, and bitterly complaining about how she doesn't love him.

I joke, but not much. I don't think Ruka wanted to "save" Juri. I think he wanted Juri to be what he wanted her to be. That's why he tried to get her to win the duels, because he honestly thought she could, and that that is what would save her (he also thought this would prove how his love for her was purer and better than anyone else's, especially Shiori's). He was wrong on both counts (and even more wrong on the last), something he only finally realises in the interval between the car ride and the end of the duel (which is why he seems very sad during the last half of the episode, rather than in any way happy that he got what he 'wanted').

Take episode 26 for example. We see Miki talking to his father, and see shortly after that Anthy is his new mother. Though we see them together, and they say that she is his new mother, it's actually just symbolic.

I disagree with this, too. I see no reason to think that didn't happen. If it's supposed to be symbolic of Anthy's relationship with Miki, it doesn't make a lot of sense, since Miki actually resents or at least is completely indifferent to "the new mother" and unconsciously becomes closer to Kozue as a result. The latter is directly in line with Akio's plans, and thus I figure is why it happened, and why it actually did happen.

This could relate to Ruka, and how he doesn't plan to use the power of miracles to make his feelings known, but to release Juri from her.

I feel the tone of this is giving Ruka rather more credit than he deserves. No doubt he was planning to "release" Juri from Shiori, but he wasn't really interested in Juri's feelings in the matter, and most certainly wanted to be the beneficiary of that act. He wanted to be the one that unlocked Juri's potential to revolutionise the world, but time and time again we're shown that Ruka's motivations are twisted up, self-serving and self-deluding. Like Touga, he equates what he wants to happen with what's best for someone. Like Touga, this blows up in his face. Ruka convinces himself he's doing the "right thing" even more than Touga, but goes about it in a way that's even nastier than almost anything Touga does, and makes Juri hate him significantly more than Utena hated Touga.

Ruka could have left rather than died, but I don't think he did, because again, there's a lot of evidence to suggest he died even if the Shadow Girls had never said a thing; moreover, again, he isn't treated like any of the people who left. I'll concede it's possible, but I think it weakens the ending of the episode, and I think it (slightly!) mitigates some of Ruka's actions if you think he was racing against time to do what he thought he had to do.

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#14 | Back to Top12-09-2006 08:08:54 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Blade wrote:

Razara wrote:

Take episode 26 for example. We see Miki talking to his father, and see shortly after that Anthy is his new mother. Though we see them together, and they say that she is his new mother, it's actually just symbolic.

I disagree with this, too. I see no reason to think that didn't happen. If it's supposed to be symbolic of Anthy's relationship with Miki, it doesn't make a lot of sense, since Miki actually resents or at least is completely indifferent to "the new mother" and unconsciously becomes closer to Kozue as a result. The latter is directly in line with Akio's plans, and thus I figure is why it happened, and why it actually did happen.

I don't think it's symbolic of Anthy's relationship with Miki but rather a commentary on this new wife of his father's. Somebody (I wish I could remember who off the top of my head) said that a trophy wife is a Rose Bride. I think it's symbolic simply because I don't think that Anthy married Miki's father but like all symbolism it's ultimately up to the viewer to decide what it means.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#15 | Back to Top12-09-2006 09:20:34 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Blade wrote:

For a certain definition of "save" Juri that includes hurting her, hurting the person she loves, sexually molesting her, and bitterly complaining about how she doesn't love him.

I'm a Shiori fan... Do you really think that I need to be told any of this? I was merely using the more common views on Ruka to explain what the symbolism could have meant. I don't trust my own views on Ruka, because I wouldn't doubt that my feelings for Shiori could be leaving me as blind to his true intentions as the people who think Shiori is the spawn of Satan for hurting Juri.

Blade wrote:

I disagree with this, too. I see no reason to think that didn't happen. If it's supposed to be symbolic of Anthy's relationship with Miki, it doesn't make a lot of sense, since Miki actually resents or at least is completely indifferent to "the new mother" and unconsciously becomes closer to Kozue as a result. The latter is directly in line with Akio's plans, and thus I figure is why it happened, and why it actually did happen.

Actually, I think it relates to how Miki replaced Kozue with Anthy. For one thing, the treetop-patterned veil that covers Anthy strongly suggests a relation between the two, given the symbolism that we see throughout the episode that relates Kozue to the treetops. The phone that their father was using resembles a trunk, which relates to Miki. After all, Kozue’s name means “treetops” and Miki’s name means “trunk.”

Think of the flashback of their parents earlier in the episode just as Kozue was about to leave Miki and Anthy alone. We only see the mother leaving, just as it could be argued that Kozue abandoned Miki by refusing to play the piano. Just as the father replaced their mother with a new wife, Miki has replaced his sister with a new "sister," namely, Anthy. If he shows indifference towards this new mother, than perhaps he subconciously would prefer to have Kozue rather than a replacement.

This is why I hate trying to explain symbolism.

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#16 | Back to Top12-09-2006 09:48:43 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Razara wrote:

I'm a Shiori fan... Do you really think that I need to be told any of this?

I'm aware. Nonetheless, I only responded to what you said... and what a lot of people say. emot-wink

I was merely using the more common views on Ruka to explain what the symbolism could have meant. I don't trust my own views on Ruka, because I wouldn't doubt that my feelings for Shiori could be leaving me as blind to his true intentions as the people who think Shiori is the spawn of Satan for hurting Juri.

Nah. He really is a jerk. I once bought into the Ruka myth until I rewatched the series and paid more attention to what he actually did and said. He's not a jerk because he hurts Shiori, per se; he hurts Shiori because he's a jerk. emot-biggrin

Actually, I think it relates to how Miki replaced Kozue with Anthy.

I buy your reasoning totally, but don't think that means it didn't happen. emot-wink

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#17 | Back to Top12-09-2006 09:53:40 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Blade wrote:

I buy your reasoning totally, but don't think that means it didn't happen. emot-wink

It's not that I don't think that it didn't happen, I just don't think that Anthy is somewhere off campus getting married to Miki's father. Then again, I suppose anything's possible...

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#18 | Back to Top12-10-2006 08:32:20 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Hmm, I'm quite certain he died.  And it seems if you are a fan of Shiori you aren't a fan of Ruka, though that isn't neccesarily vice versa, though I'm more then likely wrong on my point as well. This is displayed excellently through the essay on this site... I forget which one though... ahem, anyway, that essay can display my point much better then I can. Though there are a few things of note about it, In "The Prince who runs through the Night" we see that Akio thinks of Ruka as a prince in reference to the shadow girl's question. The clincher on that one is the correct answer to their question is a "Meeting with a Prince" and Akio responds in turn by saying (after the flashback to Ruka's achievement's.) "Miracles happen everyday, we just don't notice them." So the Shadow Girl's seem to think of Ruka as a Prince and Akio does respond in turn saying he did create a miracle for Juri. They comment on the situation at hand and that is the situation at hand. Also it's very difficult to ignore that our "Mutant Forelock" Prince is based on the creator of the show. I don't think he'd want to be viewed in a bad light.

Ruka's sacrifice was supposed to be seen as that, a sacrifice, the last bit of his health and life, to enact a plan to break Shiori's (unknowing) grip on Juri. The first part of his plan wasn't cruel as much as it was neccessary.  It was to show Juri that Shiori cared nothing for her in a relationship. Yet (all theoretical) he needed to carry a bride to the arena per Akio's contract. Not to mention people seem to overlook that Shiori did lie to him. Though he did lead her into the lie, not to mention the sword wasn't even his, is also strange, since it falls out of his locker but... anyway, the relationship was built on shaky lies and devious deceptions. Shiori was undoubtedly looking for a meaningful relationship, but for Ruka she was the sacrifice needed for the miracle. It is speculation that he broke up with her in the school square, since he seemed to break up with her at the end of the duel. this is the start of the next day it seems. though the evidence to the contrary is when he's talking to Juri after the duel. Though that could be a flashback to before the duel.

Anyway though... Juri pretend's like nothing is wrong but does go to console Shiori on Utena's interference. Shiori of course is crushed and hates nothing more then being looked down upon. Juri asks Ruka to take her back, he explains why not, in quite a rude way, but that is only neccessary to get close enough to Juri to take the locket and crush the binding chain then and there. He wanted her to strike at him, the feint towards kissing her was to get the locket which was around her neck, all he'd have to do is reach slightly into the back of her uniform to pull it out. Once he has the locket, he could have crushed it any time. He could have broke it. But he himself had reservations about doing so. The look on his face is not one of joy, it's one of sadness, and the look he gives afterwards, is just one of pure failure. He even says "I'll take Shiori back, just like you asked!" He's willing then and there to abandon his plan. No doubt Akio would take him out of the picture more quickly then before for not being able to get Juri to duel, another thing I have seen askewed on certain character analysis on Ruka is that they say that it was Ruka who challenged Juri to a duel when in fact it was vice-versa... but us as die hard Utena fans would know that. The rest of my point can be found in the essay, I'd suggest you take a look.


Uh... sorry about the horrible style of writing I cannot write to save the life of me.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#19 | Back to Top12-10-2006 09:33:46 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Actually, I don't dislike Ruka, though I make tongue-in-cheek comments. I only dislike boring characters, and I don't think he's boring. I do think he's unrealistically held up in a good light by fans for a guy who does an enormous amount of very nasty things for essentially selfish reasons. But I also think that about Touga. emot-wink

The Shadow Girls referring to Ruka as a "prince" doesn't, to my mind, really prove anything, because the Shadow Girls have a very cynical opinion on pretty much everything in the show. I think their opinions mean something (namely that it refers to Ruka's self-identification as a prince), but would think an honest admiration of any character like that would be wholly out of character for them.

As for Ruka being vaguely based on Ikuhara, I similarly don't think that means he's any paragon of virtue. I think Ikuhara's more than capable of self-inserting himself as a big jerk, or more seriously, a tragically flawed character. His favourite character is supposedly Shiori, and god knows that does her no favours. emot-rolleyes

In the strongest possible terms, I disagree that what Ruka did to Shiori was "necessary" or "not cruel". It was both unnecessary and extremely cruel. It was cruel to Juri, and it was crueller to Shiori. Make no mistake, I don't exonerate Shiori. She did lie when given an opportunity; Shiori is very selfish and it's her worst character trait. But Ruka lied with the deliberate intent of hurting Shiori as much as possible to show she wasn't "worthy" of Juri. That was unnecessary, because worthiness has nothing to do with love, and if Juri was going to be convinced that Shiori was "unworthy" of her, Shiori would have unwittingly done it herself when she "stole" that boy. Ruka's plan with Shiori has no aim, no goal beyond "I'm gonna show Juri what that girl is really like." He hates Shiori, and basically says as much, because Juri loves Shiori and not him. That's not exactly a noble motivation.

Here's the irony. Ruka means to show that, because Shiori lied to him for her own benefit, she is unworthy of Juri. He means to show that, because she will go out with him, she does not love Juri. To do this, he lies not only for his own benefit but with the express intent of hurting people, and he knowingly kisses Shiori right in front of Juri and then has sex with her. Ruka, trying to show Shiori's character "flaws" to Juri, succeeds primarily in doing worse things than Shiori did, and thus shows himself to be even more "unworthy" than she is. He does this without any acknowledgement of his hypocrisy, because he thinks Juri's going to agree with him. He gets visibly angry and upset when she doesn't come crawling to him saying "Oh Ruka, you were right! How could I be so blind? Take me now!" Juri expresses nothing but concern for Shiori's welfare and contempt for Ruka and his methods, and Ruka cannot understand why.

"Why? I'm so much BETTER than her! I showed how petty and worthless she was! Why? Why doesn't Juri realise what a filthy, petty, unworthy person Shiori is?"

Ruka is a person who is so caught up with his personal idea of what the situation is (Juri is pure and wholesome and blameless and Shiori is the vicious undeserving bitch that's holding her back and making her unhappy) that he never stops to actually question what Juri really feels and why until he has committed acts he cannot redeem himself for. I think, funnily enough, that in his simplistic black and white Juri Good/Shiori Bad viewpoint he is similar to some Utena fans who hold Shiori to have less redeeming traits than Akio, and Juri basically a flawless victim. The fact is, Shiori isn't who tortures Juri. Juri tortures Juri. Ruka doesn't want to admit that, because then he has noone to blame, and no hope that Juri will ever look at him. Eventually he is forced to realise the truth, once he has taken Juri to the Akio Car, and that's why I believe he seems so sad there and at the end of the duel. He only really succeeded in making Juri hate him; moreover, he DESERVED to be hated, and he knows it. He has dug his own grave, metaphorically speaking.

I think Ruka is more pitiable than hateable. I believe he's dying, and I think that mitigates his actions SLIGHTLY, because he was desperate and anxious. But what he did to Shiori was still cruel and unnecessary. It's not what breaks Juri away from Shiori, and all it really accomplishes is hurting Shiori a lot and making Juri hate Ruka.

There is one exception to any mitigation of his actions. Ruka does not "feint" a kiss on Juri. He pins her to the wall, presses himself against her and kisses her until she bites his lip to make him let go. He forces himself on her sexually and there is no ambiguity about it. I think that's an unforgivable act. So does Juri, and that's why she refuses to take his offer (because she won't take anything willingly from him after that) and challenges him. So does Ruka, which is why after that he tries to give up, only to find Juri now hates him so much she won't accept anything from him.

In the final analysis, Ruka is really not that dissimilar to Touga. His methods are primarily selfish and betray his arrogant estimation of himself as the only person who can be trusted to do the "right thing". Unlike Touga, he really does believe he's doing a noble thing. Also unlike Touga, he is forced to realise that he was wrong and confront the enormity of what he's done. I give him full credit for that, since very few people in the series really come to grips with their sins. But to argue that Ruka intended to save Juri in any way other than his own selfish notion of what "saving" her entailed is, I think, to miss the point of the storyarc. Ruka intended for Juri to reject Shiori, to love or at least admire him for what he had done, to duel and to win and thus to become happy. None of this comes to pass. Juri does not reject Shiori,    does not love or even like Ruka, does not win the duel, and would not have become happy if she had.

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#20 | Back to Top12-10-2006 10:04:32 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Hmm... Yeah I was far too lenient with the feint a kiss part, but... yeah, Juri's speech to him at the end does sound like she's forgiven him. Since she refuses to believe he is dead, which is why at the end she says "Believe in Miracles and they will know your feelings" As in a reference to "Hope you get well soon". Not to mention if after he makes that advance on her she also seems to take "Everything will be alright, Juri" quite literally, as she sit's alone in the fencing room she blurts out sarcastically with "Everything will be alright." She doesn't hate him that's for sure. At least I don't believe she does.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#21 | Back to Top12-10-2006 10:07:14 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
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Re: Did Ruka Die?

I'm inclined to think she doesn't hate him in the unspecified time when she makes those comments, but I tend to think that's because she knows he's dead (and has come to realise he was trying to help her, despite his methods). Regardless of that, though, if she forgave him later it doesn't change that she pretty clearly loathed him through most of his time on-screen.

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#22 | Back to Top12-10-2006 10:12:41 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Oh yes without a doubt, well that's one point we can agree on at least. I read another eally interesting essay on Ruka on this site (Bot Mode) infact. Though it's heavily against Shiori it's worth reading because of the theories that Ruka may have been from a past dueling cycle.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#23 | Back to Top12-11-2006 10:50:36 AM

tohubohu
Precious One
From: Boston metro area
Registered: 11-02-2006
Posts: 289
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Re: Did Ruka Die?

I'm relatively certain that Ruka died.  Of course, I'm half of the belief that all the Black Rose Duellists are actually dead after failing their duels, and they only keep going because of the peculiar qualities of Ohtori.

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#24 | Back to Top12-11-2006 11:34:40 AM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Did Ruka Die?

Within their Black Rose forms they became a person led by memories and emotions, not to mention the soul that lied within the ring. Then they carried on them the soul of wich their memories and emotions were aimed for. Mikage is not as cruel as to sacrifice his duelists, unless a sacrifice was "needed". This was purely in defeating Utena, killing Anthy and making... Anthy... the Rose Bride. Wakaba is a major character, as well Keiko appears gagain when her dreams are fulfilled and at the end of Episode 39, if what you say is true then after Mikage died the illusion of life should have been gone and they all should have simultaneously died.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#25 | Back to Top12-11-2006 11:37:21 AM

hyacinth_black
une personne horrible
From: Waiting at the window.
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 3301
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Re: Did Ruka Die?

Is Ruka dead?

Yes.

But that doesn't matter!  There's plenty of peculiar kinks in SKU, so why leave out being a necrophiliac?? school-devil


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Hyacinth Black: Not much else to say, is there?

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