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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top05-16-2010 10:58:33 AM

chrisb
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Tx,USA
Registered: 01-18-2010
Posts: 956

So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

Is there like some origin story to his sexual abuse of her? It just seemed random. I know it can be like that in real life sadly but this is Utena, I figure there was some subtext somewhere that explained what started his horrible treatment of his sister.

Last edited by chrisb (05-16-2010 11:00:05 AM)


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#2 | Back to Top05-16-2010 11:54:55 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I don't have a definitive answer to this question!  One clearly relevant item of subtext, though, is that Anthy locked Dios away from the world in part so that she could have him to herself.  Another is that Akio loves giving people exactly what they want and watching them suffer as they realize that this isn't at all what they wanted.  It's hard to say whether the trysts were Anthy's or Akio's idea originally, but if we put the pieces together we can see one way it might have happened.

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#3 | Back to Top05-16-2010 12:53:00 PM

76089172
Saionji Slapper
From: sacramento
Registered: 04-25-2010
Posts: 26

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

It's seemed like revenge for as long as I've followed this story. 
The image I have of their 'origin story' was that Dios would come home and crash hard after saving the world for all eternity, and while he was defenseless Anthy would cast magic on him through sex and torture.

By the time we see Akio in SKU he's transformed into the same kind of monster he was a victim of, and Anthy would have it no other way than for him to remain trapped in the old cycle of abuse.  The roles are reversed by this point, and Anthy appears to be getting bored with it by the second time Touga duels.  There's still no greater flattery for her throughout the majority of the story than to have a man with such amazing potential locked in the depraved state of a sex addict obsessed with an incredibly silly ritualistic game only schoolchildren will go along with. 
Convincing the Chairman that he actually is the kind of monster he behaves like could be interpreted as the en result of a spell to transforms the angelic Dios into the devilish Akio.

Akio is under the impression that it's all about him, but (spoiler) on episode 39 it becomes clear who's sake the entire "duel game" was for.  The last time we see him, he's left with his draw dropped like he just found out that his last three paychecks had bounced.

Last edited by 76089172 (05-16-2010 01:01:11 PM)


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#4 | Back to Top05-16-2010 07:16:12 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

Here's one other good thread that discusses the start of Anthy and Akio/Dios's sexual relationship: Anthy's magic


Do you think "Akio's sexual abuse of Anthy" is the best way to describe the situation, though? There's certainly abuse in their relationship, on both ends, but their sex always seemed quite consensual. Or, at least, as consensual as you can get with two such messed up people.

(Actually, I do recall one scene where Anthy appears reluctant... Episode 25, is it? At that point, though, their underlying dynamic seems to be already starting to shift. Anyone else have comments on that scene?)


76089172 wrote:

It's seemed like revenge for as long as I've followed this story. 
The image I have of their 'origin story' was that Dios would come home and crash hard after saving the world for all eternity, and while he was defenseless Anthy would cast magic on him through sex and torture.

Woah! You mean, she did that repeatedly? That's certainly a different interpretation than I'm used to. emot-aaa What would her motivation for such actions be?

I've always accepted the story as Flashback!Dios presents it: that Anthy only used magic on him once, to seal away his power and prevent him from killing himself through overwork. And then, the swords. I agree with satyreyes: that's probably the point where their relationship started to get really messed up.

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#5 | Back to Top05-16-2010 08:21:33 PM

NajiMinkin
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From: The Incredible Edible Egg
Registered: 06-23-2007
Posts: 2537

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I guess I don't really think of it as "abuse?" In the sense that that implies just one of them is a victim.

And as to when it started...

I assumed that it started immediately after Dios turned into Akio. He and Anthy joined groins consensually in an attempt to mask the pain that they were both suffering from, or to express the pain... Anthy's pain being self evident and Akio's being having fallen from grace. But, come to think of it, there's a problem with that.

It seemed like initially, Anthy and Dios were about the same age. But when we see Dios turning into Akio, he ages. Anthy in all her sword-filled misery does not. If that situation and the chronology of that event in the context of SKU's timeline is to be taken literally? My previous theory would mean that Akio was having sexual relations with a little girl. But I think I'd still stand by that, in the spirit of a Lolita/Humbert sort of twisted relationship; pseudo-consensual, miserable, codependent... All those goodies.

So, in retrospect, I think it was abuse after all (if taken literally), but still that it started the moment Akio came into existence.

Before that, I find myself believing that Anthy and Dios maintained a celibate relationship wherein Anthy was nonsexually (or subconsciously sexually, as children might be) jealous of how Dios was able to have the prince/princess relationship with every girl but her. And, additionally, that her whole "having him for herself" speech was just a front for saving him. I like my little Anthy on the martyrier side of things.


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#6 | Back to Top05-16-2010 08:49:54 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

NajiMinkin wrote:

Before that, I find myself believing that Anthy and Dios maintained a celibate relationship wherein Anthy was nonsexually (or subconsciously sexually, as children might be) jealous of how Dios was able to have the prince/princess relationship with every girl but her. And, additionally, that her whole "having him for herself" speech was just a front for saving him.

There are so many possible ways this might have started and so little suggestion as to which out of the possibilities it was that I often wonder if the Touga and Nanami episodes later in the series aren't meant to be a suggestive parallel, where the 'better' decision was made. It's not hard to slide early Akio and Anthy into their position, with a Dios whose innocence has slipped a little offering sex on the assumption that is what Anthy wanted. What's the ruined, grown-up equivalent of a fine restaurant on a lonely night, after all? What if Anthy, knowing they now had only each other to relate to, accepted?

Aside from that and a few very tiny suggestions (Anthy's flashback of her saying they now have to exist for each other and protect each other, and Akio describing their relationship as one where he was the awed party) there's nothing to tell us who started what, why, and how. Given how little evidence there is, I personally favor situations where regardless of who initiated it, it was actually with good intentions and a desire for intimacy or confirmation of dependence. I think the sex started before Akio was really...Akio, and before Anthy was quite as cynical and broken as she is in the series. (By the point of the series, Akio's lewd encouragements seem to be met with almost sarcastic compliance on her part.) It was an easy manifestation of their needfulness and solitude, and to me, makes less and less sense the more they changed. emot-frown


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#7 | Back to Top05-16-2010 08:52:32 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I've always been of the opinion that Dios and Anthy's first time together caused Dios' fall from grace. In my head, I'd always imagined it as non-consensual moment not long after the Million Swords of Hatred incident. One day, he just got pissed off at her and said something incredibly bitter and witty about how Anthy finally has him to herself, and flat-out raped her.

For me, the bigger question will always be, "When did it turn from rape/non-con to a "consent via indifference/surrender/resignation with a side of psychological warfare"?"


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#8 | Back to Top05-17-2010 04:00:33 AM

chrisb
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Tx,USA
Registered: 01-18-2010
Posts: 956

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I do know Anthy isn't all that innocent but it just felt that after a while she was just going along with it while Akio enjoyed it. Even after Anthy started to normalize seemed like Akio would just drag her back down.

Dallbun wrote:

(Actually, I do recall one scene where Anthy appears reluctant... Episode 25, is it? At that point, though, their underlying dynamic seems to be already starting to shift. Anyone else have comments on that scene?)

Good example of her normalizing but Akio bringing her down I believe.

p.s. seriously loving this discussion. It just makes you wonder how dark and dirty Utena really was.

Last edited by chrisb (05-17-2010 04:08:12 AM)


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#9 | Back to Top05-17-2010 09:14:50 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

chrisb wrote:

I do know Anthy isn't all that innocent but it just felt that after a while she was just going along with it while Akio enjoyed it. Even after Anthy started to normalize seemed like Akio would just drag her back down.

Dallbun wrote:

(Actually, I do recall one scene where Anthy appears reluctant... Episode 25, is it? At that point, though, their underlying dynamic seems to be already starting to shift. Anyone else have comments on that scene?)

Good example of her normalizing but Akio bringing her down I believe.

That scene is definitely an outlier in that we see open resistance from Anthy, but it's very telling on their relationship's part that her resisting doesn't change the outcome. They HAVE to fuck, as far as Akio's concerned. They don't have a choice, because without that sexual relationship, he loses the only hold he has over her that's distinct to himself. It's not Dios that fucks her. It's him. Everything else that holds her to Akio is based on who he used to be.

To risk humanizing him with having such complex feelings at some point in his life ( emot-rolleyes ), sex might be the only thing that 'proves' on some level Anthy's allegiance to him. Using his past as Dios is flimsy at best, and he knows it, which is why he uses it sparingly, as a guilt trip, when Anthy becomes rebellious. Fucking her confirms that she wants him, and feels some connection (penis in vagina?) to him. Sex is a stronger hand for him to play than 'hay but I used to be the love of your life!', so the threat of losing that hand is enough to move him to violence, which we don't see from him in any other situation at all. It's up to us to decide whether this actually impacts the stability of his ego (does he feel like shit if he thinks Anthy doesn't want him?) or if it's purely a calculation (SHIT IF SHE FORGETS MY COCK SHE'LL RUN AWAY). I think it's a sliver of the first and a lot of the second. That sliver won't manifest, if it ever does, until after the series. And god knows how it does.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#10 | Back to Top05-17-2010 09:27:44 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

Dallbun wrote:

(Actually, I do recall one scene where Anthy appears reluctant... Episode 25, is it? At that point, though, their underlying dynamic seems to be already starting to shift. Anyone else have comments on that scene?)

Great scene to bring up, since it's the only one (that I remember) prior to episode 38 where Akio shows genuine surprise or consternation.  That thing with Anthy pulling the sword out of Utena wasn't supposed to happen.  I'm not sure what was supposed to happen in that duel (Saionji's third), but not that.  And Akio knows damn well what it means -- that Anthy is beginning to feel close to Utena -- though he underestimates the importance of that feeling.  I guess Akio's violence towards Anthy here is the equivalent of Saionji slapping Anthy when she gets out of line: a reminder of who's boss.

Last edited by satyreyes (05-17-2010 09:28:46 AM)

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#11 | Back to Top05-17-2010 03:17:18 PM

poetoffire
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 01-27-2010
Posts: 65

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I can't see Anthy raping him, and I really can't see him going crazy and raping her...maybe, after she was stabbed, Dios wanted to save her where he didn't before because she was in physical (as physical as the swords of hatred are) danger now, so he offered her what he thought she'd wanted before.  Sort of a thank you for saving his life and also comfort from her pain.

I think that began his descent from Dios to Akio.

But what do I know?

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#12 | Back to Top05-17-2010 03:49:57 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

poetoffire wrote:

But what do I know?

Just as much as anyone else here!

Rape never enters into it, in my view. Fear, I think, would be more likely to start their sexual relationship. Fear of everything apart from each other. I tend to think the sex started out of fear of losing each other now that the rest of the world has seemingly turned on them both (after Anthy was stabbed).


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#13 | Back to Top05-21-2010 09:04:52 PM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

Giovanna wrote:

I think the sex started before Akio was really...Akio

I know the movie and TV series are alternate continuities. All the same, Ikuhara said (on the DVD commentary?) that Movie!Akio is a less corrupt, earlier version of TV!Akio. Hence his remorse and suicide when he finds out that Anthy hasn't always been asleep while he date raped her. TV!Akio is a psychopath, which means he feels no remorse; however, we don't get a sense that he's raping Anthy in the same sense as in the film. Maybe in some broader psychological sense he is, by controlling her thoughts and feelings as much as he can. But we can't deny that Anthy is the one walking to their sleepovers, not the other way around (for the first arc).

I wonder when their relationship's character started to turn, and how. Did sex change things? Or is that a symptom of an underlying dynamic? The fairy tale implies that Dios, for whatever reasons, was sexually denied while a prince. Whether he was chaste by choice, or whether his damsels in distress were just using him, is up for interpretation. When Anthy seals him away from the world, she might feel it her duty to look after him, and he feels guilty for plunging her into eternal torment through his weakness, his inability to save the world. Why wouldn't they sleep together? Who else can they sleep with that would give them the kind of connection they want?

Last edited by minervana (05-21-2010 09:05:06 PM)

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#14 | Back to Top05-21-2010 10:52:18 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I agree with Giovanna that the best hint we have is Touga/Nanami.

There is however a contradictory hint. It is possibly that she took the initiative back in that cabin, she was certainly stereotypically dressed for the part.

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#15 | Back to Top06-11-2010 09:40:13 AM

gumi
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 06-11-2010
Posts: 10

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I think that Dios and Anthy's relationship was more like Miki and Kozue's. Dios has lots in common with Miki, like their idealism and that they never seemed to try and accept their sisters for who they really were and only kept searching for their ideal in other girls.
Similarly in Anthy and Kozueís case Ė they wanted their brothers to see the real them and accept them even if they werenít an ideal. Therefore, I think it was Anthy who started the whole thing, also sexually, but thatís because she loved him so much. Akio just tried to use it up against her later.
Also, in her relationship with Akio, I think this time it is Anthy whoís trying to ignore the truth about Akio (she still wants to believe that heís just ďa littleĒ changed Dios Ė though I think, that deep down she is already disillusioned, she just keeps playing the game to soothe her pain).
So in short,
Dios and Anthy = Miki and Kozue
Akio and Anthy = Touga and Nanami


BTW, Hello to everyone!

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#16 | Back to Top06-13-2010 12:06:31 AM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

Something that I feel is important to think about when considering Akio, Dios, and Anthy is the following: how quickly did Dios fall? Was is as soon as Anthy was stabbed, like turning off a switch? Did he turn around and become a Lucifer-like character that fast? Or was it a slow decent, a slow loss of purity and humanity, replaced by a lust for power? Did Anthy lose faith in humanity at the same rate? How long did it take Dios to believe that Anthy was actually a witch, and deserving of all the emotional and physical abuse the world could throw at her? When did he jump on the bandwagon, reminding her of her place, of what she did, and of his innocence in the situation?

I feel that, if Dios became Akio slowly, the sexual relationship must have been consensual at first. I think that over time, as Akio became more and more like the him that is seen in the series, the sexual relationship was used as a means of control (I agree with Gio as sex being Akio's major hold on Anthy), probably along with verbal and psychological abuse. Anthy seems to have stuck around out of a desire for the Dios long gone and a personal hatred for herself and what she had done--a belief that she was a witch, a horrible woman who deserved punishment.

(Aside: She might have been like Utena long, long ago--a person that believed in the goodness of the world, in the power of real love, a person who had hope--but that belief was broken in her heart and replaced with anger and bitterness, and Anthy's real self was sealed away, sleeping in a coffin for god knows how long.)

When Utena appeared and slowly awoke the part of Anthy which was not devoured in bitterness...I think that's when Akio's hold on Anthy began to slip and force was necessary to keep her in her place (because, really, what does Akio have if he doesn't have her? What power does Akio have if Anthy is absent?). This does not mean that Akio forcedly raped her--I imagine that small amount of resistance on Anthy's part was the extent of the resistance--but it does mean that mutual consent may have stopped, and that sexual abuse may have occurred. Consider the sex-scene from episode 36:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9IJVflxM46g/TBRzLkUGM-I/AAAAAAAAABY/NqDLiA9YD10/s800/Series_ep36_221.jpg

Note Anthy's dead, blank expression here. I mention this because detachment from the situation is a common defense mechanism for rape and sexual assault victims. Rather than fight tooth and nail to get out of the situation, the victims mentally remove themselves from the situation and repress it. (I learned this in group therapy! school-eng101) Here's a closer look at Anthy's expression.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9IJVflxM46g/TBRzQe-vxaI/AAAAAAAAABY/47Y95toZFVY/s800/Series_ep36_223.jpg

Now, I'm speaking from a very personal place here, so my bitterness, fear, and strong desire to tell myself that I did the right thing in my personal situation may be clouding my judgement. I do, however, think that there is significance in a close-up of Anthy's face, giving us a second chance to analyze her expression.

Does anyone else have other readings of this scene?

Last edited by bella (06-13-2010 12:29:22 AM)


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#17 | Back to Top06-13-2010 08:50:44 AM

gumi
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 06-11-2010
Posts: 10

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I can speak for myself because I was in such a relationship for a very long time.
Itís like, you hate that person and at the same time, you canít even imagine living without him/her. You feel like a victim in need of a rescue from a bad wolf and simultaneously you feel like total shit (sorry for the wording) who deserves everything bad happening to you. I think most of time I tried everything in my power to detach myself from people, situations, the whole world if possible; to stop thinking, just go with the flow without feeling anything.

And in my opinion, thatís how Anthy might have felt when being with Akio.

Although, I think I was quite abusive myself in a subtle, passive aggressive way, like in forgetting what I was told or playing a dumb when not wanting to do something and that must have infuriated my partner and was making him even more abusive Ė but it was my little, mostly unconscious revenge (yeah, itís a vicious cycle).
I know that my passivity and negativity might have hurt many people who might have actually care, but even if I felt a little remorse, I still couldnít believe that anything could be changed and even if it could, there wasnít any assurance that it would be a change for the better. The world felt to me like exactly how it must have felt to Anthy Ė like a bunch of constantly stabbing swords. Itís hard to think and care about others when everything you feel is pain (though I admit that it might just be a personís subjective view. If someone is oversensitive he tends to view the world as a threat).

Thatís why even though I understand Anthy and relate to her completely, itís not like I consider her a saint.



Sorry for the random blabbing.

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#18 | Back to Top06-13-2010 09:34:27 AM

Paradox
Winning Love By Daylight
From: Indianapolis, IN
Registered: 07-13-2007
Posts: 343

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

It all does come down to how fast and hard Dios fell.  In my mind, it was a slow thing.  When Anthy is stabbed, he experiences emotions he's never been exposed to: bitterness, rage, hate, but it's not like he's immediately consumed by them.  At first, he just hates those who did this awful thing, then those who have that same selfish, judgmental mindset, then those who stand idly by and let such horrible things happen, then finally, the world as a whole, for not being the way it should be.

As for sex, my conjecture is that it was consensual and she was quite possibly the first initiator, trying to comfort and relieve the stress of a Dios/Akio that is struggling with himself and losing ground.  Over time, of course, this source of comfort and closeness is also warped in the fall.  It goes from an expression of comfort and release to one of control and debasement.

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#19 | Back to Top06-30-2010 06:56:26 PM

useme_imbeautiful
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 06-30-2010
Posts: 29

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

i actually never thought about this until now. So now that i think about it i believe anthy 'did things' with akio because she felt that she owed it to him. It seems to me that before anthy met utena the only person who she assumed cared about her was akio. And that the only way to keep him[caring about her] would be to do everything he wanted and sadly sex is what he wanted and power of course. So in exchange for the feeling of 'being loved' anthy participated in akio's 'sleepovers' and became the rose bride. But after a while she realized that she didn't have to do those things for people to care about her because Utena never onced asked anthy for anything.


i want him.

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#20 | Back to Top07-05-2010 11:56:22 AM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9IJVflxM46g/TBRzQ … 36_223.jpg

Now, I'm speaking from a very personal place here, so my bitterness, fear, and strong desire to tell myself that I did the right thing in my personal situation may be clouding my judgement. I do, however, think that there is significance in a close-up of Anthy's face, giving us a second chance to analyze her expression.

Does anyone else have other readings of this scene?

I imagine that there is also some defiance and even some some triumph in those eyes. In addition to all the misery, she seems to be partly enjoying the shock on Utena's face. She also realizes that she has probably lost her friend and there is also a note of hopelessness.

I have always wondered who engineered that scene; Akio? Anthy? Both of them? Was it an accident?

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#21 | Back to Top07-05-2010 12:27:28 PM

Calamity
High Tripper
Registered: 06-13-2010
Posts: 244

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

I've never really questioned so far when it began, but throughout the series I mostly took it as Anthy returning to him in lieu of having a proper Prince. Namely when she starts losing faith in Utena as the rift between them grows (and Utena starts becoming more feminine). It almost seems as if Anthy continues it out of routine since her eyes always seem to show that she's not exactly enjoying what happens, but continues to do it to keep Akio (and her memories of Dios) close. She seems to show some kind of control on the situation though, even if she does still submit to Akio's whim. I can't remember the exact quote or episode but I remember there being one point where I believe it's after the fact when she's leaving, Akio says something to the extent of "And yet you deny me..." almost wistfully. I kind of took that as a reference to the story they tell about the Witch, and how Anthy still denies Akio even with what they do to each other.

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#22 | Back to Top07-05-2010 11:53:43 PM

chrisb
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Tx,USA
Registered: 01-18-2010
Posts: 956

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

Speaking of that scene with Utena's discovery, I wonder if Nanami's discovery of Akio and Anthy was maybe orchestrated by Anthy too. We all know how much Anthy loves fucking with Nanami's head emot-rofl

Last edited by chrisb (07-05-2010 11:54:18 PM)


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#23 | Back to Top07-06-2010 01:37:26 PM

Saio
Ballgoer
Registered: 06-11-2010
Posts: 156

Re: So how did Akio's "sleepovers" with Anthy start?

...as all the head (or "heart") she can reach out etc-love


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