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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top03-20-2010 03:51:24 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2346

Why isn't Touga more bothered by Nanami's crush?

Touga is no fool.  At some point he knows his sister is in love with him.

It wasn't during episode ten because he laughed off her request for a kiss and said she scared him for a minute. However, Nanami is too open about her feelings between then and her ride in Akio's car for him to be totally unsuspicious. Why isn't he repulsed by it?

Could he really be blind to her declarations? Was he not listening all of those times? Is he unfazed because he has seen things at Ohtori that would make Nanami's desires look tame? What do you think?


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#2 | Back to Top03-20-2010 04:19:30 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: Why isn't Touga more bothered by Nanami's crush?

I don't think he cares.

He knows the entire time that they're not really siblings, he's just waiting for the perfect time to tell her.
I'm sure he's flattered she's in love with him.  He offered her sex, and she denied.

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#3 | Back to Top03-20-2010 04:36:52 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Why isn't Touga more bothered by Nanami's crush?

Riri-kins wrote:

Touga is no fool.  At some point he knows his sister is in love with him.

You know, I think Nanami would object to you lumping her feelings under the heading of romantic love. For most of the series, she's not trying to pursue Touga romantically; she doesn't want their relationship to be anything more. Rather she's trying to protect what she views as their already perfect, wonderful close bond. When she asks for a kiss in episode ten, it's because she's very insecure in their brother-sister relationship, and is trying to call back the days when she was younger and that bond was never in doubt.

There's an element of unhealthy sexual attraction there, to be sure, but it doesn't come to a head until episodes 31-32, and it seems like Nanami eventually decides that's not what she wants.

That's not to say that Nanami's not totally messed up, just that it's unfair to describe her motives as simply "incest."


It wasn't during episode ten because he laughed off her request for a kiss and said she scared him for a minute.

That sounds like a mistranslation or something. Touga doesn't say that he, himself is surprised. The Utena Translation Project version, which looks reasonable to me, has it as:

Nanami:  Aren't you...
Nanami:  Aren't you going to kiss me?
Touga:  Why should I? After all, we're not children anymore.
Touga:  You seem surprised.
Touga:  Well, I'm going to get some sleep.
Touga:  Good night, Nanami.

Kissing her goodnight is something that he's presumably done for most of their lives: for him to stop is something of a shock to her.


Regardless, there's no way Touga is oblivious to her little brother complex. Episode 10 is all about Touga callously manipulating Nanami into dueling. He has her number. He deliberately distances himself from her, provides her with a ring and an outlet for her rage at someone who might be coming between her and Touga, and he's wholly unsurprised when she attempts to murder Utena after the duel is officially over.

Apparently, Touga isn't bothered by Nanami's rather disturbing obsession because he sees it as a useful tool. Yeah, Touga is kind of a bastard.

(One could make the case that he also finds it kind of cute, though.)

winksniper wrote:

He knows the entire time that they're not really siblings, he's just waiting for the perfect time to tell her.

Oh, but they are related. They were both adopted together.

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#4 | Back to Top03-21-2010 04:57:45 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Why isn't Touga more bothered by Nanami's crush?

winksniper wrote:

He knows the entire time that they're not really siblings, he's just waiting for the perfect time to tell her.

They are real siblings; he lied when he said they weren't. But if he's bothered by it, he buries that emotion deep inside, and instead uses her crush to manipulate her into following his schemes - though I suspect that Akio was the one pulling the strings on that one.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#5 | Back to Top03-21-2010 06:32:23 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
Website

Re: Why isn't Touga more bothered by Nanami's crush?

Dallbun wrote:

There's an element of unhealthy sexual attraction there, to be sure, but it doesn't come to a head until episodes 31-32, and it seems like Nanami eventually decides that's not what she wants.

I've always taken her motivation to duel to be largely disgust at how people interpreted her motives, as well as how she realizes now they appeared. I don't think she ever wanted to sleep with Touga, and when faced with it, she was so horrified she rejected absolutely everything to do with it in, true to form, a severe outburst of aggression and violence. (Which is funny, because based on the little interaction we see of it, Saionji actually functions as her big brother at least as much as Touga, and she treats him in a far more typical little sister manner.)

As for Touga...I think he knows, even if she didn't, what her meaning actually was. And...for all his cruelty to her...how can he hate that? Say what you will about Nanami but she is, literally, the only woman in the series that knows what he's really like, and cares for him anyway. On some level I think that's part of why Nanami holds his fangirls in contempt; jealousy for his attention, yes, but also...pearls to swine. They don't even know him, his good side or his bad, how can they truly appreciate him?

For me, that he was willing to go along with Akio for her second duel suggests he was 99% sure she was going to reject him when he offered her sex. He's a dick but I don't think it would sit well with him to fuck his own sister, and besides...it would serve no purpose in Akio's, or his, scheme. He knew she wasn't going to do it, and Akio laughed all the way to the bank knowing that, and knowing that Touga did still take into account the possibility he'd have to fuck his sister.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#6 | Back to Top03-22-2010 12:23:53 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Why isn't Touga more bothered by Nanami's crush?

Nanami is the only person who unconditionally loves Touga. Despite all of the adoration he receives, from childhood on, very few people love Touga. I guess it's easier to love someone when they're not so rich and clever and handsome; if they have some visible faults you can forgive them later on for not-immediately-visible ones. You'll notice that Touga's only friend hates him. You'll also notice that, after Nanami finds out that they're not related (which isn't true, but she never learns that) she still seems to love Touga, even if she hates him at the same time.

My semi-educated guess is, when somebody is that rich, handsome, charming and talented, most people fall in love with them almost at first sight, only to get disgusted when they realize that, wow, that person is human, and has faults like everyone else. Nanami, however, knows him very well, since they've grown up together; it must assuage his insecurity that the person who knows him best also loves him so much.

I think on some very deep level, Touga is not a strong person. He's so used to receiving flattery and counterfeit affection, from a very early age, that he has no sense of self. This is despite, or because of, his accomplishments. That's why Utena's victory throws him for a loop: so much of his ego is bound up with external rewards and accomplishments, it makes him totally rethink how he views the world.

Maybe Touga has problems being loved unconditionally, faults and all; he doesn't want to acknowledge his own faults, so by kissing Nanami he's trying to cheapen the one genuine relationship in his life. Or maybe he's just a gigantic bastard.

That's my $0.02, anyway.

Last edited by minervana (03-22-2010 03:03:33 AM)

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#7 | Back to Top03-26-2010 02:24:30 PM

starbrigid
New Student
Registered: 03-26-2010
Posts: 3

Re: Why isn't Touga more bothered by Nanami's crush?

Since there isn't as much to work with on Touga versus the seitoukai members concerning who he "really is inside," I'm gonna have to do some elementary psychoanalysis XD Touga is manipulative, charismatic and appears to lack empathy, but I don't think he's really a "psychopath" in the pop psych sense, more like Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Since narcissism isn't really just high self esteem but an inflated sense of self needed to compensate for deep insecurity, which causes deep distress when threatened, Touga's shutdown after his lost duel and depression made me think of NPD. Of course, personality disorders can't really be diagnosed until adulthood, but they always appear in at least teenage years, and Touga might have been on the track to one before the "revolutionizing of the world." Sorry, this is VERY long... emot-frown

Here's some stuff about it:

Etiology, parent-wise:
Under types of parents that develop narcissistic children:
"Adopted Children: Although these children can feel they are special because they were chosen from among all the other babies, they can also develop a deep sense of being abandoned, unwanted by their biological parents."
"Overindulged, Overly Praised (the "Nobel Prize Complex"), or Wealthy Children:  Having every whim gratified has the effect of prolonging infantile narcissism, and, if the parents are narcissists, there is a strong likelihood that the child will develop this disorder as well.  These children develop a strong sense of entitlement and omnipotent control (infantile narcissism and grandiosity) that later in life, when combined with frustration and anger, can turn into a pathological character style."

Characteristics- DSM-IV diagnosis:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
(1)  has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2)  is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3)  believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(4)  requires excessive admiration
(5)  has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6)  is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7)  lacks empathy:  is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8)  is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9)  shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Totally 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 9. Maybe others.

Of the types of narcissism, Touga most fits:
Amorous-
This type of narcissist seeks power and influence over others through sexual games.  These persons have an indifferent conscience and an aloofness to truth and social responsibility that, if brought to their attention, elicits an attitude of nonchalant innocence... However, since the pathological narcissistic personality cannot form emotional attachments with others, despite all the flirtation and seduction no truly intimate relationships are ever formed ... Lasting relationships pose a potential threat to the narcissist as the longer they are with anyone else, the more opportunities there are for their deceptions and lack of true attachment to be found out ... Rather than apply their talents toward the goal of tangible achievements or genuine relationships, they will devote their energies to construct intricate lies, to cleverly exploit others, and to slyly contrive ways to extract from others what they believe is their due. 
(Saionji and Nanami are Touga's only lasting relations. Concretely, he cleverly exploits both of them by driving them to duel, in both Nanami's duels and Saionji's second two duels, as well as his display with "saving" Utena from Saionji. In the Seitoukai arc, this helps make him look like a prince to Utena and thus helps him beat her in a duel, and in the Akio arc, their duels serve Akio's purpose in moving the cycle along, serving him indirectly by making him useful to Akio and making him feel part of/equal to Akio in his control and manipulations.)

Elitist:
Most [elitist narcissists] are upwardly mobile, seeking to cultivate their sense of specialness and personal advantage by associating with those who may possess genuine achievements and recognition.
(Akio)
Many elitist narcissistic individuals will create comparisons between themselves and others, turning personal relationships into public competitions and contests.
(Saionji)

So, back to the question- why isn't Touga bothered by Nanami's crush? Why does he act like he does around her? First, I agree with everyone who said she's the only unconditional love he's ever had. Second, her "adoration" (duel title) is a very useful tool for him, and even if not, narcissists of his type manipulate for manipulation's sake, enjoying the sense of power it gives them as much as the goal it achieves. It validates their grandiose self-image as the absolute Akio type, master of the Symbolic. Narcissists are self-destructive in that lasting relationships just don't seem to take with them- they consciously or unconsciously break them down, turning those around them into playthings rather than acknowledging any real feelings or attachments.

Touga would definitely have an avoidant attachment style, where he values short rather than long connections, and views them as opportunities instead of emotional connections- Saionji and Nanami happen to be worth keeping around as exceptionally interesting, maybe, or validating. Also, Touga never seems bothered by incest itself, using the undertones of it against Miki with Kozue, probably having some inkling of Akio and Anthy's type of relationship, etc. He's not one for sexual taboos, and a sexual connection is actually probably easier for him to deal with in the case of Nanami. Passionate love is what Touga engages in, a jealous but transient type, as opposed to companionate love, a long-lasting affection which would probably scare the shit out of him. He drives Nanami in the passionate direction when she really needs companionate.

You could argue he also sexualizes his relation with Saionji in the same way, as he does with every other character. Touga's like a rapist (don't take this in the wrong way) in that sex IS power, completely, and when Touga lacks control of something or someone, he LOSES it, as in Kurobara. Of course Touga is about the least likely person to ever rape anyone, because his type of control is conquering someone mentally as well as physically, making them want him to value his ego and confirm he really is a desirable, worthwhile person. One could argue he starts coming out of this pattern by his part of the Akio duels, esp. with Saionji, maybe, and his relation with Nanami has presumably de-sexualized, as her quiet presence in the last scene seems comfortable, companionate, sisterly.

Thanks for reading! It drives me crazy we don't get as much on Touga as, like, the entire rest of the Seitoukai and half the black rose duelists emot-frown

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#8 | Back to Top03-27-2010 07:20:21 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Why isn't Touga more bothered by Nanami's crush?

It seems pretty straightforward to me. Nanami's adoration validates and affirms Touga, as you say. And clearly, the fact that she's his sister means nothing to him except that her devotion is at a higher level than his other admirers. He feels like he can use her however he wants and she'll stay devoted to him, which is probably why he never told her they were adopted. When she finds out, he sees an opportunity for a sexual conquest, which is why he withholds the information that they really are brother and sister. What's more, he's fixated on Utena and the dueling game, and angst-ridden Nanami ends up being more useful to him than clingy Nanami anyway. Lots of people have claimed that Touga is too slick to have bungled his seduction of Nanami and could have had her if he wanted, but I disagree. I think because of the sibling thing, Nanami is fundamentally different from all the girls he's gone after before, and he doesn't know how to handle her. Same thing with Utena. It would have been interesting if he had become fixated on Nanami the way he was fixated on Utena, but he just doesn't have that much attention span I suppose. There's also the matter of Nanami having watched him for years, so she's seen all his tricks, and she knows all his lies. That probably makes him a little uncomfortable and puts him off his game a little, but then he finds out that she still loves him after the obvious reason for that love disappears. Perhaps he wants to find out what kind of relationship he can have with Nanami without the overlying structure of family in place, and see if she's capable of loving him in a genuine way without knowing of their biological relationship.

tl;dr, I hate Touga if you haven't noticed. emot-tongue I'm sure others see his actions differently.


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
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