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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top03-19-2010 02:36:43 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

*Please delete this if this already has a thread.*

This is probably one of the most debatable topics about SKU.  So here goes nothin'...

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Saito x Ikuhara interviews found HERE, they say that what they portrayed in the movie is what they intented to portray in the series.  Now as we all know, in the movie Anthy and Utena spend several intimate moments together, and even though Utena acts as if she hates Anthy, they kiss throughout the whole movie (before the Saionji duel, before the Juri duel, and of course at the end) and we all know about the near-molestation by Anthy on the bed and the boob-grab before the scene where Utena becomes a car. 

But does that mean that they were doing similar things during the series, but we never saw them?  We all know that in the second ending credits, they are shown kissing, but their faces are cut off.  Of course we never see that sort of thing during the actual series, so the credibility of whether that was acutally going on is debatable.  There's a lot of hand-holding (lacy fingers) and of course, the occasional boob-touch.

So what does any of this mean? 

I really don't have much of an opinion on the topic, seeing as I enjoy SKU either way.  But whether they did changes a lot of my perspective on the series, seeing as I never thought they were dating.  But that would explain the "betrayal" they were talking about later in the series.  I don't know.

Talk about your thoughts.  emot-smile

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#2 | Back to Top03-19-2010 03:01:41 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

I don't think there was anything all that physical going on, though I think it's hinted that things are moving that way (what with the beds in the tower and whatnot). I think the "betrayal" was an emotional one, and links back to the fact that Utena said she'd protect Anthy, and dropped her in favour of being Akio's princess for a good part of the latter episodes.


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#3 | Back to Top03-19-2010 03:49:57 PM

Nights1stStar
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From: Clawing Out of Her Coffin
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 157

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

I don't think Anthy and Utena has a physical relationship during the series b/c Utena tries saving herself for her prince and Anthy puts up an innocent act in order to win Utena over. If Utena even notices Anthy's chest-grabbing during pre-duel scenes, she's naive enough to just brush it off as typical prince-princess behavior, rather than anything sexual between the two of them. By the time Utena does decide to have sex, she's completely won over by Akio and can't focus on Anthy until the last two eps of the series.

That being said, if Anthy and Utena ever meet up after the series, I'm sure I would love to be a fly on their bedroom walls. etc-love


"To copulate is to enter another...and the artist never emerges from herself."
-Charles Bauldelaire

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#4 | Back to Top03-19-2010 05:00:47 PM

Hermine
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From: a distant star
Registered: 09-07-2009
Posts: 73
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Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

I think the movie just fleshes out (ahem!) what they were thinking/feeling in the series.

I seriously doubt that they were having a physical relationship, per see, but I'm pretty sure things were heading that way in their (probably sub-concious) minds. Come to think of it, they may have been two somewhat abnormal people in a normal adolescent pre-dating phase.

...Just my two cents.

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#5 | Back to Top03-19-2010 05:40:23 PM

RhythmFusion
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Registered: 03-18-2010
Posts: 131

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

I remember hearing that the creator of the manga also aided in the creation of the anime, and didn't want the female leads to be in a physical relationship. That's why all of the romantic hints in the anime are subtle. The person in charge of the manga did not participate in the creation of the movie, therefore, the romance is much more obvious.


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#6 | Back to Top03-19-2010 05:51:50 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

RhythmFusion wrote:

I remember hearing that the creator of the manga also aided in the creation of the anime, and didn't want the female leads to be in a physical relationship. That's why all of the romantic hints in the anime are subtle. The person in charge of the manga did not participate in the creation of the movie, therefore, the romance is much more obvious.

I do seem to recall, from DVD commentaries and such, that Chiho Saito (the manga author) was indeed hesitant about the girl-girl undertones, and that Ikuhara (the anime director) basically just forged on ahead without her agreement. Eventually she seems to have come around, though. She was just as involved in the movie project as everyone else in Be-Papas. She didn't quit in protest or anything. And she was responsible for the "movie manga," which follows the movie's plot fairly closely (albeit more straightforwardly.)

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#7 | Back to Top03-20-2010 01:06:06 PM

Carrie Asagiri
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From: Argentina
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Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

I think Anthy and Utena's relationship wasn't sexual but it could lead to that in some point. They were teens (at least Utena was XD) and they were in the experimental stage, so the all teasing and touch was part of process. Utena had her sexual debut with Akio, but if he hadn't manipulated her, maybe her curiosity could lead her to intimate more with Anthy. In the manga version of the movie the yuri spirit is more present, mainly at the end.

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#8 | Back to Top03-21-2010 01:42:32 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 506

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

Carrie Asagiri wrote:

They were teens (at least Utena was XD) and they were in the experimental stage.

I am of the firm belief that they were friends with questionable feelings. Some of the things they did as friends, i did as friends with my friends. I wont go into detail about my personal life, but essentially i didn't see much of what they did as beyond the line of friends; however i can see how they may be trying to figure themselves out.

Many-a-time growing up did i sleep with other girls, because thats what you did at slumber parties, many a time did i depend more on my friends for comfort than my own family. At that stage, i feel you are trying to find out what trust is and who you can trust. So in saying that, Utena is seeking out herself, what she wants, and how she feels she should treat others. She experiments with her feelings, but her ultimate goal is the prince.... Once she starts to question her beginings (becoming a prince) she slips and has her moment with akio. At this point i'm sure anthy fell out of graces in her mind. This is a big implication for me to show that there wasn't really anything between her and anthy...

After writing this post at 2:30 in the morning, i also developed another thought (shocking!)

You can see many forms of relationships through Utena/Anthy. It goes from that of a friendship of determination to help change Anthy into a "normal" human, to a closer relationship, to a sister-like relationship, and the prince/princess relationships. They are an evolving pair.

I can't think anymore i'll get back to this tomorrow -.-... i havfe so much more to say. [to be continued...]

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#9 | Back to Top07-26-2010 10:48:55 PM

haelsyx
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From: sunlit state
Registered: 10-09-2009
Posts: 211
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Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

After watching the Apocalypse arc again, I have a question, and its really anyone's guess, but is it at all possible Anthy and Utena became somewhat more...physically intimate between the attempted suicide scene and the Akio duel scene (aka final boss battle)?  Because Ikuhara did state in some way or another that they were involved romantically right? I think it might have made sense that in their moment of confession, and mutually confessed hurt, they might have tried to express a form of comfort that only progressed naturally from their previous platonic(-ish, sans the Anthy groping in sword pulling scenes) relationship? I think it would have been the prime moment to do so, seemingly bringing them closer than ever and making Anthy's betrayal all the more of a surprise/shocker to Utena later on, though really I don't think Anthy had that in mind the night before.

It'd be really ridiculous  for everyone to be calling it a yuri series just because of a specific ambiguous outro in a handful of episodes. (Though I think the yuri reputation really comes from the movie.)


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Its an odd thing, but anyone who disappears is said to be in San Francisco-Oscar Wilde.
Anyone get the feeling finding Utena is going to be a lot like where in the world is Carmen San Diego?

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#10 | Back to Top07-27-2010 04:01:12 PM

Calamity
High Tripper
Registered: 06-13-2010
Posts: 244

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

As I've stated elsewhere, I do view them as a romantic couple, but I personally feel it's something that it evolved into. The best case scenario for it to truly be acted on in the course of the series I believe is the exact point haelsyx stated, after their rooftop confession. It really does set up Anthy's later betrayal, and her biting words of Utena not being a prince because she is a girl to hurt that much more for Utena, considering what they shared previously. The slightly teasing or intimate touches, I take it as friends in the beginning and then the closer they get it feels slightly... restrained in some cases, yet more intimate in others (such as the later rides up to the dueling arena where Anthy is with Utena the whole time, and outfits her for battle). Utena afterall for a good chunk of the series just says she is a "normal" girl and probably has not come to gripes with such confusing feelings she has towards both Akio and Anthy. By the end of the series though I feel Utena has accepted her true feelings for Anthy, and steps up to do what even her own family would not, and save her from the ongoing torment. When all is said and done after the series though, I'd like to think that they become a full fledged relationship.

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#11 | Back to Top07-27-2010 08:02:52 PM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

I agree with all the above comments. I think, and this is just my interpretation, their relationship evolves many times eventually leading to a romantic attachment that Anthy is clearly pursuing at the end of the show and that Utena acknowledges with her admission that the only time she was happy was when she was with Anthy.
I think Anthy realizes the extent of her own feelings at first but absolutely believes it can't go anywhere good (million swords is kind of a problem). Certainly she's having a tough time watching Utena with Akio (signified by the reflecting glasses and not wanting to look at the "real" stars). She wouldn't be jealous of Akio, besides he sleeps with everyone and she hates him. So she must be jealous of Utena. Akio realizes it after Anthy tips the duel to Utena instead of Saonji ("what do you think of her!") and decides to go after Utena, I believe, earlier than he had planned. Distracted by Akio, Utena doesn't realize the extent of her feelings for Anthy perhaps until Juri blatantly points it out during the badminton scene or even later at the suicide attempt scene.

is it at all possible Anthy and Utena became somewhat more...physically intimate between the attempted suicide scene and the Akio duel scene (aka final boss battle)?

I have always thought that this was a good bet. Certainly the next day, they seem VERY close. I think it is the only possible time during the series that something deliberately physical on both their parts could have happened.

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#12 | Back to Top07-28-2010 07:32:52 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

Dani wrote:

I have always thought that this was a good bet. Certainly the next day, they seem VERY close. I think it is the only possible time during the series that something deliberately physical on both their parts could have happened.

While I'm sure that Utena and Anthy have romantic feelings by the end of the series, I don't think that they ever have the time to take it to physical level. There's way too much baggage between them at that point, along with all the external pressure. And besides, much of the series concerns how it's not wise to pursue one's sexuality too early, demonstrating plenty of pitfalls and issues it tends to result in. I rather think that that part of their relationship will have to wait until Anthy finds Utena again.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#13 | Back to Top07-28-2010 09:31:18 PM

sissyhiyah
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From: NC, USA
Registered: 07-25-2010
Posts: 10
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Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

So when you say 'in a relationship', are you asking if Utena and Anthy are bumpin' uglies or if they're in love? 

I know that sounds silly, but I'm very serious.  I think they're in a relationship, but since they're still trying to figure out just who the hell they even are in the first place, their relationship to each other is secondary to their relationships with themselves.  (and yes, I'm laughing at myself for typing that.  Damn you Beavis and Butthead, for forever warping my oh-so-innocent sense of humor)  It's one of those "know thyself" deals when being with someone and learning about that person allows a person to learn things about him/herself too.  So yeah, they're IN a relationship, but it's not quite the same thing as just being girlfriends.  It's like they MUST be with each other to become themselves.  Er, does that make any sense at all?  I think I sound kind of crazy there. 

I guess what I mean is that their relationship is based on what they can give to and take from each other, and how they apply what they've gained and lost to their development.  It's not quite mutualistic, since they almost seem to be feeding from one another at different times, but it isn't quite parasitic either.  They're greedy bitches one minute, taking anything and everything the other will give, then they're worried about each other and seek to better their other halves. 

Which...now that I think about it is pretty much like any other relationship.

Hm.

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#14 | Back to Top09-22-2010 12:43:28 AM

CausalityStar
Caretaker
From: Idaho
Registered: 09-12-2010
Posts: 215

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

I think that they were gradually progressing in the direction of having a romantic relationship during the series. I think Anthy did like Utena in that way, since she touches Utena's boobs. A lot. And in the end, Utena chooses Anthy over her prince. Plus there's the fact that Utena is a prince and Anthy is her bride. So yeah...

And we have this quote from the final episode:
Utena: Himemiya...you still don't know... the only time I've ever been really happy was when I was with you.

I do think that they will be in a relationship when Anthy meets up with Utena after she goes to find her. Of course, there's the whole idea that the movie is a progression of the series on another plane of existence, so if that's true, then the fun lesbianism in the movie is just the result of the feelings they had for each other in the series.

Last edited by CausalityStar (09-25-2010 03:23:33 AM)

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#15 | Back to Top09-22-2010 09:45:26 AM

tuomastahti
Banned
From: Finland / NSK
Registered: 08-29-2010
Posts: 40
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Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

The TV series simply provides the watcher with the freedom to make his/her own conclusions. This is one of the things that make the series a real masterpiece: all speculations and opinions tell more about the watcher than about the anime itself.

People see what they want to see. Therefore, our conclusions about cultural phenomena can also teach us to know ourselves better.

I would say that even the Be-Papas staff members can only tell their own opinions. There is no definitive answer to be found for this controversial question.

As for me, I don't see a sexual relationship between Utena and Anthy in the TV version of the story.

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#16 | Back to Top09-22-2010 04:16:14 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

tuomastahti wrote:

As for me, I don't see a sexual relationship between Utena and Anthy in the TV version of the story.

I agree with you there, hon. Mainly because of Utena's little exchange with Juri where she says that her love is pure-- I think what she means by that is that she loves Anthy, but it's not a kind of love that demands anything from Anthy except that Anthy exist and be herself. Sex and romantic feelings are not necessary to a relationship like that. Not saying it would never happen, but that if it did, it would never be as important as the love.


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#17 | Back to Top10-29-2010 08:31:22 AM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

Yasha wrote:

tuomastahti wrote:

As for me, I don't see a sexual relationship between Utena and Anthy in the TV version of the story.

I agree with you there, hon. Mainly because of Utena's little exchange with Juri where she says that her love is pure-- I think what she means by that is that she loves Anthy, but it's not a kind of love that demands anything from Anthy except that Anthy exist and be herself. Sex and romantic feelings are not necessary to a relationship like that. Not saying it would never happen, but that if it did, it would never be as important as the love.

I'd disagree with you guys on that. A major part of the symbolism in RGU is the transition from childhood (innocence/naivete/purity) to adulthood (maturity/becoming jaded) and obviously part of that change is the development of sexual feelings; Akio represents adulthood, and Utena's attraction to and relationship with him are representative of her own emerging sexual identity. Through that, I think she'd become a little wiser about her own feelings for Anthy, and be willing to act on it.

Anthy, on the other hand, has already become incredibly jaded and disillusioned from the various horrors she's lived through (thanks in no small part to Akio) and might refuse to accept that someone could actually care about her-well, consciously, anyway; her words to Utena about how she couldn't be her prince because she's a girl seems like both an affirmation of a refusal to accept Utena's friendship and anger at her for getting her hopes up and letting her down.

It all gets worked out in the end, though, because Utena opening Anthy's coffin and showing her the way to freedom allows Anthy to understand that Utena really did care about her all along and never gave up on her; in turn, Anthy finds the courage break free of her bonds and go find Utena and tell her how she feels (So I think, anyway<3).

So, in short, I think that it's not entirely a sexual relationship, but it is romantic and physical attraction is a part of that.


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#18 | Back to Top11-02-2010 10:06:11 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
Website

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

I gotta disagree. While I don't think that their relationship was one that could never be romantic (indeed, I think it would definitely be romantic after the series if Utena's alive), Utena never evinces sexual attraction toward Anthy during the course of the series. Utena makes it pretty plain that Anthy has a huge chunk of her emotional investment, but as she says in the last episode, she does what she does because she's just happy to be with Anthy. Romance and sexuality inherently limit that because that's when there start to be demands on love-- look at all the marriages that aren't happy because someone's not getting laid. I think it's the lack of that limit that makes it possible for Anthy to leave Ohtori in the end-- someone who loved her just for her, without needing anything at all in return.


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#19 | Back to Top11-09-2010 11:45:59 AM

CoffinBreaker
Rose Bride
From: Here and Now
Registered: 10-28-2010
Posts: 117

Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

Yasha wrote:

I gotta disagree. While I don't think that their relationship was one that could never be romantic (indeed, I think it would definitely be romantic after the series if Utena's alive), Utena never evinces sexual attraction toward Anthy during the course of the series. Utena makes it pretty plain that Anthy has a huge chunk of her emotional investment, but as she says in the last episode, she does what she does because she's just happy to be with Anthy. Romance and sexuality inherently limit that because that's when there start to be demands on love-- look at all the marriages that aren't happy because someone's not getting laid. I think it's the lack of that limit that makes it possible for Anthy to leave Ohtori in the end-- someone who loved her just for her, without needing anything at all in return.

I agree that that's true during the series, but afterward, once it's been firmly established in Anthy's mind that Utena really genuinely cares about her, and in Utena's mind that Anthy actually has a will of her own, it would probably lead to romance and sex. I somehow get the feeling that Utena would not be the one to initiate it...


You don't need to understand Revolutionary Girl Utena to understand it.

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#20 | Back to Top11-29-2010 05:23:44 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Utena and Anthy Having a Relationship During the Series?

Yes, of course. After the series there's definitely the possibility of romantic love... and I can definitely see Anthy starting it emot-wink


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