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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top03-18-2010 12:00:06 AM

HonorableShadow
Cow Bellhop
From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 471
Website

Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

Hm, so I just got done rewatching the series.  I haven't seen it for a very long time (I only owned the Black Rose saga and I borrowed the rest from a friend.  It was only recently that I bought the whole series on e-bay.)  But..I'm a little confused about something.  It's probably a dumb question, but Dios came to Utena while she was laying in the coffin, right?  And this was already after Anthy took him away from the girls of the world, because she was already being stabbed by the swords of hate, obviously.  But even though she had sealed him away, apparently he was still in the business of rescuing princesses - he came to Utena.  If he was taken away from all the girls of the world at this point and not a prince any longer, how could this be possible?  Did he just pick Utena as the last girl he would save because he knew she had inner nobility and could become his replacement? 

I don't think I'm articulating what I'm confused about very well.  So I guess I'm asking this.  If he was able to go to Utena to save her from the coffin, what was holding him back from saving the other girls?  Did he just lose the will to after Anthy became a pincushion?  If that's the case, it brings me back to the question why did he go to Utena if he had retired from the Prince business?  Also, did Anthy actually do anything to seal him away?  It seemed to me like she just walked out of the house and told them that she had sealed him away, but in reality he was still just laying in the barn.  Nothing really changed except for Anthy (who was being stabbed by hatred) but for some reason Dios felt he couldn't be a prince any longer. Possibly because he couldn't save Anthy... so he just became bitter towards her for being the unsaveable princess that he couldn't be a prince for, and it destroyed him and he grew into Akio.  Okay, that went off on a tangent.  I'm sorry for so many questions, I'm just confused. XD

As a side note, I thought it was cute that little Utena told Dios "you're so pretty."  emot-smile

Last edited by HonorableShadow (03-18-2010 12:01:23 AM)


Rose tint my world...
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain.

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#2 | Back to Top03-18-2010 12:17:50 AM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Virginia
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2095

Re: Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

Like everything in Utena, and especially with Dios, I think its all up to speculation.

What I thought: The Dios that "rescued" Utena.. that was mostly just the fluffy, happy, idealistic memory that Utena made up in her head to cover up for the real, not-so-nice and more traumatic memory that actually happened. 

In the real memory (episode 34), Dios hardly seemed to save her at all. He kind of.. finds her.. and she gets up and follows him. I mean, he "rescued" her, but really it seemed more like she was intrigued enough by him to get up and rescue herself.. and then he showed her tragedy that was greater than hers. So, in my opinion, I don't really think he rescued her at all. I do wonder if he was trying to find her, show her Anthy, and inspire her to save Anthy because he couldn't do it himself. I think he knew that he was changing to Ends of the World and wasn't the prince anymore.


"There’s no starting over, no new beginnings, time races on
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#3 | Back to Top03-18-2010 12:29:35 AM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

The simplest explanation is to take Akio at his word: he saved Utena.

"There was a time when you were helpless and reality subjugated you, no matter how much you struggled. With no way to escape the cruel reality before your eyes, you tried to segregate yourself from the world. The one who saved you from within that darkness...was me. I'm the one who gave you the power to face the world again. At that time, I was a Prince to you. But, I'm the same, then and now. And Anthy was the Rose Bride, then and now. And she's a witch."

The fact that the person who saved Utena looked like Dios rather than Akio is irrelevant. His appearance in that scene is obviously either mutable or subjective, as indicated by Dios's sudden change in age when he talks about becoming the Ends of the World.

Akio saved Utena, and gave her a ring. Presumably, because he wanted to groom her as a Duelist. Exactly to what extent he rigs the Dueling Game in Utena's favor is kind of an open question, but his gambit seems to have payed off, since in any case she does very well and the Power of Dios seems to take to her easily.


As for the Prince-sealing: from Akio's stated goals, it seems that Anthy really did seal away Dios's power, though not his entire person. (Apparently she sealed his power so that he would stop straining himself by reserving tables at French Restaurants all the freaking time.)

Better minds than mine have discussed what might have led the then-powerless Dios to become the person he eventually did... anyone?

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#4 | Back to Top03-18-2010 03:46:08 PM

Nights1stStar
Ballgoer
From: Clawing Out of Her Coffin
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 157

Re: Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

Two possible explanations for why Dios helps Utena:

1. Dios is now a spirit separate from Akio. When the "complete" Dios fell, the noble, princely part of him separated from Akio and began to exist as a helpless ghost. This new, weaker Dios can go around offering comforting words to a few people, but has little power to do anything else. Nevertheless, he tries to draw people into the duels in order to find a person who could save Anthy. This theory is consistent w/ the manga, where Dios and Akio are explicitly stated to be one prince who split off into two people. It also matches the end of the episode 13 clipshow where Akio goes into the castle, or at least the illusion of the castle, to talk to and taunt Dios right to his face. Dios doesn't speak, but reacts by glaring at him. And in the last episode, Dios is shown soothing a stabbed and betrayed Utena. Therefore, we know that there is a Dios who exists in the series separate from Akio. (There is one scene in ep 38 where Akio shouts that "Dios is dead!", but I don't think a faded ghost can count as "alive".)

Edit: If you believe this theory, then there are two explanations for Dios' current motives. The first is that Dios no longer cares about helping random girls. He helped people all around the world at the expense of time spent with his one sibling, and was rewarded by watching the world stab said sibling. Thus, he now only cares about helping Anthy. The second is that Dios still tries to help sad girls, but now does so by showing them images of a skewered Anthy and telling them how good they've got it by comparison. In the second explanation, Dios still cares for Anthy, but is not hopeful that anyone can save her. The 2nd explanation seems to have more weight because he says things to Utena like "you can't save her because you're a girl who'll become a woman" and because he tries to get Utena to crawl away in the last episode instead of urging her to save Anthy.

Either way, there's a scene in ep 34, where young Utena begs Dios to save Anthy and asks him why he can't. For a brief moment, Dios puts on http://ohtori.nu/galerie/v/series/episodes/apoarc/34/Series_ep34_207.jpg.html, as if he's remembering how the world made him so sick he lost most of his powers to save others. Or maybe he's remembering how he lost most of his powers to save others after becoming disillusioned by the world's violence and splitting off from Akio. Whatever you believed ultimately caused Dios' downfall.

2. The Dios which visits young Utena is actually Akio in disguise, a scenario that Dalbun summarizes well. If you believe this theory, the aforementioned bitter glance would be Akio briefly revealing his scheming nature and complete and total lack of ability to actually be sincere about saving his sister.

Of course, Akio is a lying liar who lies, so it might not be best to trust his word that he "helped" Utena. He could also have been speaking Jedi-truth; Dios is technically a branch of Akio's spirit, so if Dios approached Utena, Akio could try to take some of the credit. I'm personally more inclined towards Theory 1, because it explains events in ep. 13 and 39. I also find it hard to believe that Akio would actually put effort into wandering the world looking for sad children, because he no longer cares or believes that it's possible to make a prince's sword to unlock Dios' power. Being the puppet master of the duels keeps him content and happy. He obviously won't say "no" to ultimate power, but what's his reaction when his one featured attempt fails? "Oh look, this sword won't work either. Ah well. Might as well drink a milkshake. school-devil". But of course, it's your decision to make.

Last edited by Nights1stStar (03-18-2010 04:55:15 PM)


"To copulate is to enter another...and the artist never emerges from herself."
-Charles Bauldelaire

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#5 | Back to Top03-19-2010 12:16:44 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

My theory is this:

Dios exists semi-independently of Akio. He split off, either when Anthy was stabbed or when Akio & Anthy had sex. However, he is not so much a part of Akio now as a part of Anthy.

Hence "power of Dios that sleeps within me." Although I guess Akio...no, that's a pretty bad pun. Let's not go there.

Dios is powerless to save anyone. Either that or he just doesn't want to. His only reason for existence right now is saving Anthy; because he is responsible for her million swords of hate, he feels a responsibility to save her, which he can't do. So he wanders the world until he finds a six year old girl who is, literally, trying to kill herself. (Think about that for a second). When he shows her a fate worse than death he hopes to indirectly save her, and also save Anthy.

I used to think it was Akio in disguise; I don't anymore. As to why he appeared to Utena and not someone else...well...we could be here all day discussing that.

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#6 | Back to Top03-19-2010 03:29:32 PM

HonorableShadow
Cow Bellhop
From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 471
Website

Re: Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

Thanks for answering my questions everyone. emot-smile I thought that Akio was lying about being the one to save Utena, but that does make a lot more sense that it was him than Dios still randomly appearing and being able to save people even after he was sealed away.   The fact that Akio appeared to Utena during that time makes me curious about how the other duellists got their rings.  I wonder if Akio appeared to them in moments of their lives where they were vunerable, or if they were given their rings in a more unceremonious way.  It's interesting that the only other person we actually see receive a regular ring is Nemuro. (At least, as far as I can remember.  I can't remember if we saw Touga giving Nanami her ring or not.)

Last edited by HonorableShadow (03-19-2010 03:31:07 PM)


Rose tint my world...
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain.

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#7 | Back to Top03-19-2010 03:41:38 PM

Nights1stStar
Ballgoer
From: Clawing Out of Her Coffin
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 157

Re: Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

HonorableShadow wrote:

Thanks for answering my questions everyone. emot-smile I thought that Akio was lying about being the one to save Utena, but that does make a lot more sense that it was him than Dios still randomly appearing and being able to save people even after he was sealed away.   The fact that Akio appeared to Utena during that time makes me curious about how the other duellists got their rings.  I wonder if Akio appeared to them in moments of their lives where they were vunerable, or if they were given their rings in a more unceremonious way.  It's interesting that the only other person we actually see receive a regular ring is Nemuro. (At least, as far as I can remember.  I can't remember if we saw Touga giving Nanami her ring or not.)

Yup, Touga gives Nanami a duelist ring. It's in the gallery. He in fact gives Nanami the ring right in front of Utena so Utena would start associating Touga w/ her childhood memory of a prince.

Last edited by Nights1stStar (03-19-2010 03:41:52 PM)


"To copulate is to enter another...and the artist never emerges from herself."
-Charles Bauldelaire

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#8 | Back to Top03-19-2010 05:57:27 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

HonorableShadow wrote:

The fact that Akio appeared to Utena during that time makes me curious about how the other duellists got their rings.

The implication during the early Student Council episodes seems to be that they simply received their rings in letters from Ends of the World. Here's one exchange:

Juri:  But Tenjou Utena... Is she trying to revolutionize the world like we are?
Touga:  No.
Touga:  Unlike us, she doesn't seem to receive the letters from the Ends of the World.
Juri:  If not, why does she bear the Rose Signet?

Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Also, Anthy confirms this in one conversation in the Sega Saturn Game... which, while not a part of TV series canon, is based directly on it.

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#9 | Back to Top03-20-2010 01:09:30 PM

Katieryn
Rose Smilee
From: Not-the-City, NY
Registered: 12-08-2009
Posts: 139

Re: Confused about Dios (spoilers for the end of the series)

This seems like the best place for my Dios question, if I may jump your thread:

Do you think it's significant that, in the Shadow Girl's play, Dios doesn't get a kiss from the princess he rescues? It seems like a significant part of his meeting with Utena is kissing her eyes ("thank you for your tears"). I mean, if Dios can't even get a kiss, and the inverse/corruption of him has sex more often than he has breakfast, could the lack of lovin' have something to do with the weakening of Dios that allowed him to become End of the World? Like, that lack of connection with him as a human (as opposed to a super-human savior type) was part of what wore him out? Especially considering that Akio sleeps with Anthy, who is not a princess--princesses don't put out, but witches do, and Dios was more susceptible because Anthy could provide what no one else could? And what does this imply about sex generally in SKU?

Thoughts appreciated. This is a half-formed theory of mine.


"If Utena was a novel, you'd be studying it in college." -- EM site info

We're patient for now, and we're patient for tomorrow, when the past will redeem all the toil extreme and all the sorrow.

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