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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top02-08-2010 05:17:14 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Sex in SKU

It appears we haven't yet had a thread to discuss the role of sex in SKU. So let's start one!

What role does sex play in the series? There are some implicit and a few explicit sex scenes, the one in Episode 33 being the most obvious example. And I think the consensus is that the series portrays sex, and the adult world, in a pretty negative light. But how is it used?

Mods: feel free to move this thread to IFD if you want.

On a related note, I made the following chart:

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab252/chu-chu-no-subete/sku-sex-chart.gif

A few things surprised me, namely:

1. There's surprisingly little sex––or, at least, explicit sex. Are there any explicit sex scenes that don't involve Akio? He was even driving the car when Ruka/Shiori got it on. He was even on the phone with Touga during that "orgy" scene.
2. Anthy only has one confirmed sexual relationship. Someone mentioned (it might even have been me) that the Rose Bride could give this veneer of being totally passive and bending to her victor's whims, while making it psychologically impossible for them to have sex with her. Knowing how manipulative she is that wouldn't be surprising.
3. The characters who don't have sex with anyone are emotionally fucked with like woah. Granted, everybody is in this series. But compare Kozue to her brother. Or Ruka to Juri. Or Tokiko to Mikage. Or Saionji to Touga. Who suffers more, the virgin or the...? I mean, disregarding the cheesy rhyme I just invented.

Feel free to edit/revise this chart if I've overlooked anything.

Last edited by minervana (02-08-2010 05:18:35 AM)

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#2 | Back to Top02-08-2010 05:51:44 AM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

You forgot the "they did it" between Touga and Kozue (or at least extreme make out session)

ETA: Also I'd have a "I bet they did it" between Touga and Saionji, given the heaviness of the subtext there.

Last edited by Etrangere (02-08-2010 05:55:08 AM)


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#3 | Back to Top02-08-2010 05:53:47 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Sex in SKU

Etrangere wrote:

You forgot the "they did it" between Touga and Kozue (or at least extreme make out session)

There was a Touga/Kozue makeout session? Where have I been?

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#4 | Back to Top02-08-2010 05:56:00 AM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

minervana wrote:

Etrangere wrote:

You forgot the "they did it" between Touga and Kozue (or at least extreme make out session)

There was a Touga/Kozue makeout session? Where have I been?

Not in the Music room, over the piano, apparently. First Miki episode?


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#5 | Back to Top02-08-2010 06:19:18 AM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Sex in SKU

Etrangere wrote:

Not in the Music room, over the piano, apparently. First Miki episode?

Second Miki episode, technically, but I'm nitpicking. I tend to think of them as the same episode, too.

On another Kozue note, I'd argue that Miki and Kozue's line should be thick green, not red. It's along the same lines as Akio/Kozue and Akio/Tokiko: there's no direct evidence, but seems like a really good guess based on what we see of their relationship.

Does anyone argue that Nanami and Touga had sex during her viewing of the Ends of the World? I wouldn't, personally, but other people I've watched the series with have made that assumption. Should it have a green line?

And, I'm sorry to have to bring this up, but should Mr. Kaoru and Anthy have one, too? emot-gonk

The line that really surprised me was your thin green line for Juri and the Brown-haired Boy. That's a fascinating thought! emot-aaa Has it come up in other Juri-related threads that I haven't read? Although we have to believe Juri when she says she never really liked the guy that way, she could very well have been involved with him to some extent, because of pressure on his end combined with a desire to pull herself away from Shiori. And if Shiori was aware of that, as she must have been, it would help explain why she was so convinced that Juri was in love with him. Awesome. (Possibly a subject for a different thread, though.)


I think your point about the sexual characters being more powerful is astute. All sex in Utena... all of it... seems to be about emotional power dynamics. Everyone's trying to get some kind of hold over their partner. So, the sexually active people are at least attempting to engage in the game of manipulation on their own terms, even if, like Shiori, they don't exactly end up winning. Perhaps it isn't that Miki, Juri, and Saionji are vulnerable because they don't have sex, but rather that they don't have sex because they aren't manipulative people.

Of course, virginal characters like Kanae and Utena, who have sex without understanding the rules, are doomed from the start.

Last edited by Dallbun (02-08-2010 04:24:24 PM)

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#6 | Back to Top02-08-2010 07:14:06 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

This is a great idea, minervana, and I really like your chart. etc-love It reminds me of the chart on The L Word!

Etrangere: Not in the Music room, over the piano, apparently. First Miki episode?

And a little later on we see Touga lounging on the bed (in that room with the fluttering curtain where he and Akio also later have sex) and then we see Kozue standing seductively by that very fluttering curtain (with disheveled clothes). Hence more Touga/Kozue sex.

As Dallbun brings up, yes to Anthy and Mr Kaoru. And I agree that yes Brown-haired Boy/Juri IS fascinating. And would make great fanfic. We need a name for Brown-haired boy. An appropraite Brown-haired name...is he really completely nameless? Poor guy. school-devil

Furthermore I propose the invention of a new line - say yellow - for "sensual encounters" between characters. Because there's an awful lot of that going on and it hints at sex being possible (eventually) or something sexual between various characters. Unless there would be too many yellow lines? I'm thinking yellow lines for such pairings as:

Nanami/Tsuwabuki (the hand holding moment)
Tsuwabuki/Mari (the kiss)
Nanami/Touga (the kiss)
Touga/Utena (the kisses)
Utena/Anthy (the hand holding, breast touching)
Mikage/Tokiko (the eye gazing, stalker spying)
Juri/Shiori (the lip tracing)

And the list goes on and on and on. I think what this thread also highlights (whether we bother with yellow lines or not) is that SKU has an awful lot of "pre-sex", or "sex possibility implied" or "innuendo" or whatever you want to call it. Whatever it is there's so much of it (literally seeping out of the series) it deserves some kind of special name. Maybe "skuendo"?

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#7 | Back to Top02-08-2010 08:16:17 PM

Sven
Saionji Slapper
From: Bay Area
Registered: 02-07-2010
Posts: 22
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

UHG. It's been too long for me to remember all this... my high school brain couldn't understand all this symbolism LMAO!

Probably wouldn't now, but I'll definitely be looking for it this time @w@

AAAAANNNNDDDD.

As far as Utena-Anthy is concerned.

Would you say, in one of the first few episodes, when Anthy attempts to leave the dorm and Utena grabs her and throws the two of them on the bed (and also turns off the lights) and tells her not to leave (or something like that lmao).... could that hint to something.

I'm so sorry if that didn't make sense...

Also, in one of the later arcs, the two of the ritually fall on the bed together before they sleep and hold hands... I think.

Maybe this hints at something.

And... Is each time a character gets into Akio's car represent them having sex? I'm a little confused!

Fill me in on the juicy details! I love the series, but I'd never thought too much past the obvious...

Plus I'm re-watching it now, so I can look for all this stuff!

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#8 | Back to Top02-08-2010 08:22:39 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Re: Sex in SKU

The part about Utena throwing Anthy on the bed was movie-verse.  They don't have sex in that scene.  They are implied to have had sex in those brief flashback scenes during Juri's duel with Utena and I feel preeeeeettty sure they did it then.  Just spoon's hunches.

Anime-verse, Utena and Anthy don't have sex as far as I am convinced.

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#9 | Back to Top02-08-2010 09:29:37 PM

Charuru
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 06-05-2009
Posts: 90

Re: Sex in SKU

Dallbun wrote:

On another Kozue note, I'd argue that Miki and Kozue's line should be thick green, not red. It's along the same lines as Akio/Kozue and Akio/Tokiko: there's no direct evidence, but seems like a really good guess based on what we see of their relationship.

Can somebody link me to a discussion on this. Seeing the red line there made me do a double take.

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#10 | Back to Top02-08-2010 09:50:59 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Sex in SKU

Charuru wrote:

Dallbun wrote:

On another Kozue note, I'd argue that Miki and Kozue's line should be thick green, not red. It's along the same lines as Akio/Kozue and Akio/Tokiko: there's no direct evidence, but seems like a really good guess based on what we see of their relationship.

Can somebody link me to a discussion on this. Seeing the red line there made me do a double take.

Oh, discussions are all over the place. Here are some.

Miki/Kozue OTP? ???
The Views on Kozue
Miki/Kozue's sexual relationship?

(For looking up this kind of stuff, remember satyreyes' awesome Master SKU Analysis Catalogue that's stickied to the top of the forum, and the forum's search function. school-eng101)

A commonly-held view, which I agree with, is that they definitely don't engage in any sexual activity during the series itself, but probably experimented with each other when they were younger. (I admit, though, that given the lack of direct evidence, a thin green line is probably the most appropriate choice.)

sharnii wrote:

SKU has an awful lot of "pre-sex", or "sex possibility implied" or "innuendo" or whatever you want to call it.

I think the appropriate word here is "sexuality".

Last edited by Dallbun (02-08-2010 09:57:05 PM)

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#11 | Back to Top02-08-2010 10:18:54 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Sex in SKU

I dunno, I don't consider sexual experimentation as children sex in the same category that the above charted couples are having sex.

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#12 | Back to Top02-09-2010 07:04:38 AM

Nights1stStar
Ballgoer
From: Clawing Out of Her Coffin
Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 157

Re: Sex in SKU

Apparently, RGU during its original airing was marketed as a kid's show and had to follow the regulations of its time slot. Thus, I find it hilarious that a series which doesn't use the word "sex" once (or "making love", or even "sleeping together", or any of the other common euphemisms) happens to be the most sexily intelligent show I've ever seen. Implication runs rampant in nearly every episode, yet few of the scenes feel like pandering fanservice. Hat's off to you, Ikuhara. If I could write as well as you...

Fangirl gushing aside, OnlyInThisLight brings up an interesting discussion point. I want to say "no", child-hood experimentation obviously shouldn't be counted on the same level as adult decisions...but then I remember that almost all the cast are in middle and high school, so almost all the sex in this series is child-sex. emot-gonk This is prolly not squicky to the average Japanese, because all the characters beyond Tsuwabuki and Mari are at or above the usual Japanese age of consent in most provinces (13, right?), but even if you ignore age, do any of the RGU characters have sex in what we'd consider a "responsible" way?

I'd argue that the Juri/BHB pairing is one of the few pairings in the series w/ no implied sex. Unlike, say, the Kaoru milkshakes, or Touga and Saionji's midnight ride, there weren't any metaphors. Juri and BHB do spar in the flashback in Ep. 7, and you could interpret the phallic imagery as meaning something, but Juri plows through a lot of random mooks during fencing practice, so unless she had sex w/ all of them...

Last edited by Nights1stStar (02-09-2010 07:15:26 AM)


"To copulate is to enter another...and the artist never emerges from herself."
-Charles Bauldelaire

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#13 | Back to Top02-09-2010 11:44:39 AM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: Sex in SKU

Hm, this really gets me thinking, especially about the brown-haired boy and Juri pairing.
I never thought of the two actually doing anything but casual flirting.
And as Dallbun brought up, there must have been a deeper reason than just flirting for Shiori to truly believe that Juri was in love with him.  And casual sex just for the hell of it just seems like a Juri-type thing to me.  Which makes me think (though, it's unlikely) that she and Ruka shared some sexual activity.  Why else would she hate him so much?  (but that's just my though, again, I highly doubt anything happened between the two.)

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#14 | Back to Top02-09-2010 07:50:01 PM

halleftw
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 01-27-2010
Posts: 25

Re: Sex in SKU

winksniper wrote:

Hm, this really gets me thinking, especially about the brown-haired boy and Juri pairing.
I never thought of the two actually doing anything but casual flirting.
And as Dallbun brought up, there must have been a deeper reason than just flirting for Shiori to truly believe that Juri was in love with him.  And casual sex just for the hell of it just seems like a Juri-type thing to me.  Which makes me think (though, it's unlikely) that she and Ruka shared some sexual activity.  Why else would she hate him so much?  (but that's just my though, again, I highly doubt anything happened between the two.)

Yeah, I can also see Juri and BHB happening. Since she was always so mature, sophisticated, and popular, and some people see having sex as a rite of passage, maybe she did just for the sake of doing it, not because she necessarily had feelings from BHB. Of course, Shiori would have interpreted it differently...

As far as Juri and Ruka, it's an interesting thought (maybe when she was still in her "exploration" stage), but like you, I'm not sure how likely it is.

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#15 | Back to Top02-10-2010 02:51:25 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

there must have been a deeper reason than just flirting for Shiori to truly believe that Juri was in love with him.  And casual sex just for the hell of it just seems like a Juri-type thing to me.  Which makes me think (though, it's unlikely) that she and Ruka shared some sexual activity.  Why else would she hate him so much?  (but that's just my though, again, I highly doubt anything happened between the two.)

I wonder if it was just a brief infatuation? There have been couple times in my life where I've developed, for lack of a better word, a crush on someone. It'd drive me insane for a short while and then I'd wake up one morning and say meh, over it.

Or perhaps it was a passionate friendship (although one is tempted to label the guy as a douche based on very little evidence).

Or perhaps it was something that Juri felt obligated to do? While Juri is a lesbian - or at the very least a Shorbian, although she did seem to enjoy going the grope on Utena- I've known a lot of queer people and even straight people who went through the motions of crush/attraction/infatuation simply because they felt they should, not because they felt they wanted too. Juri is extraordinarily conscious of her position at all times, and when she was younger and more uncertain, I could see her pretending or exaggerating affection in order to keep up appearances. It's a little coarse but in SKU it's very easy to forget just how young everyone actually is.

Also, I think Juri's body language throughout the whole Shori/Juri/BHB montage was very telling. Collected, reserved. She definitely doesn't lean towards the BHB. She doesn't lean towards Shori either, but keep in mind she already knew which of those two relationships would be acceptable, and which one would not.

Which makes me think (though, it's unlikely) that she and Ruka shared some sexual activity.  Why else would she hate him so much?

I actually suspect that he pursued her at one time. And that he knows her better than anyone else in the world and she knows this. Juri dedicates a massive amount of her energy and self-worth on her image and reputation, something which people often do specifically for the purposes of keeping themselves hidden. Hiding in plain sight. To have someone like Ruka come up to her and say, "I know you, I know your darkest secrets" would have terrified her.

Then there's the added bonus of her fearing Ruka would out her. I personally don't think he'd do that, but it's a legitimate fear for Juri to have.

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#16 | Back to Top02-10-2010 06:19:31 PM

oldboy
Miki Molester
Registered: 12-20-2009
Posts: 38

Re: Sex in SKU

crystalwren wrote:

Then there's the added bonus of her fearing Ruka would out her. I personally don't think he'd do that, but it's a legitimate fear for Juri to have.

I don't think "outing" Juri would have any real effect. It's not exactly a secret that she's not into guys. Juri has fangirls––not really fanboys. Plus, isn't everybody in Ohtori bi?

I second the point that Akio is somehow involved in every sex scene in the series, whether he's the one having sex, driving the car or just on the phone. The two exceptions you could make are the Touga/Kozue scene and when Ruka forces himself on Juri––which wasn't sex, but it was certainly sexual, as well as violent.

You could argue that Juri's attraction to Shiori was really just sublimated sexual attraction, with no real emotional component. However, because she's sort of out of touch with her emotions, she couldn't bring herself to deal with it, and thus it warped and mutated into the infatuation from hell.

You could make a convincing case that Ruka and Juri slept together. How else did he know who was in her locket? Well, maybe Akio told him. That's also possible.

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#17 | Back to Top02-10-2010 07:02:52 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: Sex in SKU

oldboy wrote:

You could make a convincing case that Ruka and Juri slept together. How else did he know who was in her locket? Well, maybe Akio told him. That's also possible.

I think he figured that much out by a series of events:
1, Juri is seen guarding the locket, but holding it between her fingers.
2, She tells Ruka to stay away from Shiori.
3, and probably most obvious,  Juri follows the two to their secret kissing spot, and Juri's there holding her locket, watching them kiss, while Ruka is watching her back, then he gets a devious smile on his face.

To me, it's kinda clear how he figures it out in his two episodes.  And I have a feeling he knows what she's going through.

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#18 | Back to Top02-10-2010 07:27:47 PM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

oldboy wrote:

The two exceptions you could make are the Touga/Kozue scene

Oh, I think Akio was involved in that one too, prompting Touga to do it and properly prim Miki for his duel.


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#19 | Back to Top02-10-2010 07:41:36 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

I don't think "outing" Juri would have any real effect. It's not exactly a secret that she's not into guys. Juri has fangirls––not really fanboys. Plus, isn't everybody in Ohtori bi?

No one is openly bi or even openly gay. Observe Touga whoring it up with Akio, yet having the barefaced nerve to upbraid Nanami during their unfortunate conversation in the egg episode. Also, a large part of Juri agonising over Shori comes from the fact that both shes are she. And while my understanding of Japanese culture is very poor, the high school fanclub thing seems to be a fairly common depiction in anime that doesn't necessarily have anything to with homosexuality.

Also, being outed while still struggling with one's sexuality is a pretty awful experience regardless of environment.

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#20 | Back to Top02-10-2010 08:33:37 PM

Pfft
Touga Topper
From: Philadelphia
Registered: 12-09-2008
Posts: 51

Re: Sex in SKU

winksniper wrote:

To me, it's kinda clear how he figures it out in his two episodes.  And I have a feeling he knows what she's going through.

Yeah. Juri isn't that hard to read. emot-smile

Besides, doesn't the shadow girl dialogue at the end of the two episodes indicate that he knew even before coming back to Ohtori? I bet he had plenty of time observing and drawing conclusions when he was coaching Juri in the fencing club.


~ a Sphinx-phinx in the winter of the desert  ~

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#21 | Back to Top02-11-2010 05:29:44 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: Sex in SKU

Pfft wrote:

winksniper wrote:

To me, it's kinda clear how he figures it out in his two episodes.  And I have a feeling he knows what she's going through.

Yeah. Juri isn't that hard to read. emot-smile

Besides, doesn't the shadow girl dialogue at the end of the two episodes indicate that he knew even before coming back to Ohtori? I bet he had plenty of time observing and drawing conclusions when he was coaching Juri in the fencing club.

Yeah, I agree.
And to me, Ruka kinda comes off as the kind of guy who would be like, "I'm such a badass, why doesn't she return her feelings for me?"  I'm sure through that kind of curiosity it became pretty clear what her feelings were, which makes the end of her second duel so much sadder when he tried to comfort her... he knew what it felt like to have to break bonds with people who you love.

Last edited by winksniper (02-11-2010 05:30:43 PM)

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#22 | Back to Top02-11-2010 06:33:49 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: Sex in SKU

I'm really surprised there hasn't been a topic on this before!

I've never really thought about Juri and BHB before....I'd like to see some fic exploring it though. It's a really interesting idea -- most people are like LOL he's not Ruka and write him off.

Also I think I'd give the Juri/Ruka relationship at least a maybe.

As far as Miki/Kozue -- I think I'd move that to a maybe?? The way they interact I'm not sure that's their relationship -- although Kozue seems to enjoy teasing him, I think it may be something she just does to bug him. Miki to me seems one of the most innocent of the characters and I don't really think he's sexually active during the anime.

Unless you're talking the movie. The movie, I'm more likely to believe. Everyone seems less innocent there.


20 threads dead so far.

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#23 | Back to Top02-13-2010 11:34:15 AM

Cherry
Mikage Mistruster
From: A Bedroom
Registered: 08-20-2009
Posts: 62
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

Well, I'm an idiot! I always thought Ruka -was- the brown haired boy, for some reason. T_T

And I'm probably being a moron again, but I had assumed everytime Akio took someone out in his car (well, not everytime, but I mean during the Akio arc where he takes someone out and the next day they challenge Utena), he had sex with them. Or at least was involved. I don't know -why- I think that, and it doesn't really make much sense considering Juri. I don't believe she'd sleep with Akio no matter how manipulitive he is.

I should probably watch the series again. I always miss things/get things wrong the first couple of times I see a series.


I never know what to write here..

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#24 | Back to Top02-13-2010 08:02:24 PM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Sex in SKU

Cherry wrote:

Well, I'm an idiot! I always thought Ruka -was- the brown haired boy, for some reason. T_T

And I'm probably being a moron again, but I had assumed everytime Akio took someone out in his car (well, not everytime, but I mean during the Akio arc where he takes someone out and the next day they challenge Utena), he had sex with them. Or at least was involved. I don't know -why- I think that, and it doesn't really make much sense considering Juri. I don't believe she'd sleep with Akio no matter how manipulitive he is.

I should probably watch the series again. I always miss things/get things wrong the first couple of times I see a series.

Actually, the first time I watched SKU I thought Ruka was the BHB as well. I was confused the second time around and it didn't finally click until the third and then it was definitely a forehead slapping moment.

And as for going to a ride in Aiko's car, I think it's very telling that it gets quite a few mentions on TV Tropes. usually connected with, "What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic?" etc-wankgirl But I think you're right; Akio sleeping with Juri in any context doesn't make much sense. I've read a few discussions on how Juri is actually a much better candidate for Prince than Utena is; while Akio would have to work at exploiting the chinks in Juri's armour, Anthy would have an easier time of it. I cannot quite figure out why she wouldn't. Setting up a serious rivalry between Utena and Juri would be of advantage.

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#25 | Back to Top02-13-2010 08:02:51 PM

Katieryn
Rose Smilee
From: Not-the-City, NY
Registered: 12-08-2009
Posts: 139

Re: Sex in SKU

Cherry wrote:

Well, I'm an idiot! I always thought Ruka -was- the brown haired boy, for some reason. T_T

It took me ages to figure out that they weren't the same person. Completely different appearance? Fffft, that's nothing:tongue:


"If Utena was a novel, you'd be studying it in college." -- EM site info

We're patient for now, and we're patient for tomorrow, when the past will redeem all the toil extreme and all the sorrow.

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