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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-07-2009 12:43:10 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Does Touga love Utena?

I ask this question because of this scene, in Episode 36:

Utena:  There're so many stars.
Utena:  What?
Touga:  You're beautiful. How fortunate I am to have been able to meet you.
Utena:  Here you go again. Just forget about that stuff and get to the point, okay?
...
Touga:  But before that, I wanted to talk to you.
Utena:  What about?
Touga:  Is there no way I can be your Prince?
Touga:  You're my only princess.
Utena:  Not that again.
Touga:  It's true. I love you. From my heart, I treasure you. Your nobility and beauty shine on many. And even if I'm not worthy of you, please, be with me for at least this instant. Just that will do. If I can just carve the memory of this night, the two of us together, within me,  that will be enough. Will you permit me that much?
Utena:  I understand.
Touga:  Thank you.

Is he being serious? Or do you think he's trying to manipulate her (later in this episode they duel) so he can get the power to revolutionize the world?

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#2 | Back to Top11-07-2009 10:42:14 AM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Touga's feelings for Utena are kind of a can of worms.   Boiled down though, I believe that if he was trying to fool anyone here, it was himself.

Touga admires Utena.   Respects her.  Wants to be more like her, both for the innocence she holds that he once had, and for her strength and honesty, all things he finds lacking in himself.  In a way,  Utena is Touga's Prince.  But Touga's chauvinism gets in the way.  Men don't admire women.  They don't emulate them.  They love them, and they save them.  Re-directing his feelings for her into romantic love protects Touga.  It protects him from truly recognizing the things in himself that he lacks, from the idea that a woman has changed and helped him by putting her and him in to the much more familiar and socially acceptable princess and prince dynamic.  He wants to stop Utena from winning in order to protect her because he loves her, when in reality he wants to stop her so he can save the things about her he desires that Akio will surely finally take away.

He loves the IDEA of her, or to be more specific HIS IDEA of her.  So to say.  And the series and Utena makes a point of saying that in doing this he completely looses sight of who she really is, which ironically enough kind of means his desire to make her his princess instead of his prince makes her into more of his rosebride

But even he knows deep down on some level that an actual relationship between the two wouldn't work for either side, and would harm them both, but still, ever the duelist, he denies this. Saionji, ever the good friend, chides him for it.

People say that Touga's Akio Arc duel episodes showcase him really changing as a character, and in a way, this is true, but I also think they reveal the depths of Touga's immaturity as well, and how more so than any other duelist he still has the farthest to go.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (04-21-2013 03:54:44 AM)

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#3 | Back to Top11-07-2009 03:08:57 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2346

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

I don't know about that. First he's shocked that anyone could beat him, and then he falls for her once he realizes she's not gonna fall all over him like most women. In short, I think he loves her because he admires her first. Furthermore, he doesn't try to do anything lecherous when he confesses to her and lets her go when he's defeated for the last time. If Akio had not tempted him with power I think he could have been a better person much sooner in the series. Of course, that's just my opinion.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#4 | Back to Top11-07-2009 05:16:47 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Riri-kins wrote:

I don't know about that. First he's shocked that anyone could beat him, and then he falls for her once he realizes she's not gonna fall all over him like most women. In short, I think he loves her because he admires her first. Furthermore, he doesn't try to do anything lecherous when he confesses to her and lets her go when he's defeated for the last time. If Akio had not tempted him with power I think he could have been a better person much sooner in the series. Of course, that's just my opinion.

emot-confused

Exactly, he gives up right after losing to her.   Touga realizes beforehand that he doesn't want to pretend to be chivalrous, he wants to be a real prince.  He'll say all the same things he has been saying, but this time it won't be a ploy for sex.  What he doesn't realize is that the ideal he had been manipulating for his own benefit wasn't even real in the first place.  His duel with Utena shows him that his perception of what a prince is was wrong from the start.  He goes from purposefully pretending and failing to be a prince to unwittingly doing the exact same thing. 

After he looses, he gives one half-assed attempt to disway her with Saionji before the forest.

If he had really, truly, unselfishly loved Utena for who she was and not for what she symbolized, he would not have stopped after losing the duel.  Damned not understanding what was going on, and accepting that he does not wholly 'get' Utena, he would maybe put in a tad bit more effort into convincing her not to go.

I dunno.   Maybe by revealing EOTW's identity to her.

Instead, I think the loss shattered his shell.  His final absolute philosophy concerning how the world works is destroyed.  I mean, he went in playing an honest prince and still lost.  WTF.  This forces him to finally look inside himself and start doing the really tough thinkings.  I mean, if Utena isn't his princess....then what is she?  What is he?  His safety net of romantic love and being a dashing knight are lost, and he truly comes to terms with what Utena really meant to him, and just how lacking he still is emotionally.


Of course, granted, there is a lot of interpretation squiggle room in here concerning what is love.  We can love a person without really understanding them, for instance.  I just feel that Touga was so far off the mark here that it wasn't a romantic love he was feeling, it was platonic.   It was admiration, which is a form of love, and it does change him for the better, but only once he truly learns what it is.

One of the only things I like about the Utena Manga is some Manga Touga states, which sums up series Touga's feelings for Utena after and before his duel accurately and honestly.


So not a direct quote:

"Yes, I loved her.  Not as a man or as a woman.  But for her honesty, and her noble grace, I loved her."


Because, well, think about it.  What is it other than these things that would attract him to her other than looks?  Do they share the same interests?  Does she make him laugh in a not totally fucking condescending way?  Does he know anything about her outside the context of the duels?  No.  He puts her on a pedestal, and loves that.


/repetitive GAH I'm outta practice.

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#5 | Back to Top11-07-2009 09:29:31 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

I think maybe he loved the idea of her rather than Utena as a person. But I think the way he tries to ambush her in the last arc isn't really a loving action, he is just trying one last ditch effort to hold on to his ideals, to be the one to save her, when she really doesn't want him to. I don't think he really takes the time to love her as a person, because if he did, he wouldn't have gone into the last duel with her in the way he did.

I think maybe by the end he is starting to wish he could be a better person, to be someone who could love her. But I think he realizes at that point what an ass he'd been, and that he admires that she is the real deal.

....I think Manga Touga may have loved her more. He does go and tell her who Akio is, and I always sort of thought that Anime Touga did not have the balls to actually tell her who the end of the world was. If he had done that, risking his own relationship with Akio to help her, then maybe I could believe Anime Touga may have loved her. That would have been a sacrifice. As it is, Anime Touga risks very little of his own skin to save her.

As it was I don't think he had enough time left in the series to grow enough into the kind of person who could love her.


20 threads dead so far.

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#6 | Back to Top11-08-2009 04:53:14 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

No, not at all.

Basically, what he's doing most of the time is fucking with her head to make her think that he's the "prince" she's looking for, which he probably knew of since Episode 1.  This was probably a ploy, in the beginning at least, to figure out how exactly she came across the rose crest ring.  Eventually, in my opinion, this whole thing was probably just to get in her pants.

Sure, he may show some signs of real passion and love for her, but in the end, it's all another part of Akio's game.

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#7 | Back to Top11-09-2009 05:32:19 PM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Touga admires Utena.   Respects her.  Wants to be more like her, both for the innocence she holds that he once had, and for her strength and honesty, all things he finds lacking in himself.  In a way,  Utena is Touga's Prince.  But Touga's chauvinism gets in the way.  Men don't admire women.  They don't emulate them.  They love them, and they save them.  Re-directing his feelings for her into romantic love protects Touga.  It protects him from truly recognizing the things in himself that he lacks, from the idea that a woman has changed and helped him by putting her and him in to the much more familiar and socially acceptable princess and prince dynamic.  He wants to stop Utena from winning in order to protect her because he loves her, when in reality he wants to stop her so he can save the things about her he desires that Akio will surely finally take away.

I think you have a point, OITL. It's really interesting to watch Touga and Utena's relationship evolve through the series. It seems like it changes when Utena wins against him, after she loses. At first he just considered her "another girl" to conquer, but as the series progresses, she fails to fit into any category,

When Touga says "You're my only princess," I think he's revealing something very telling. Princes aren't expected to have just one princess, are they? Especially not Touga, who is such a playboy as we see. I think what he's saying is that Utena is the one girl, or the one person, who he really admires, perhaps the only person he respects besides Akio (who he might not respect all that much). Except he has to sublimate that through romantic love which probably he doesn't really feel.

Saionji can see something's happened to him:

Touga:  Oh really?! You sound so smart, Saionji.
Touga:  You know that much about me?
Saionji:  Hell yes. You're arrogant and haughty, and full of confident ambition.
Touga:  Hey now, that's not a nice thing to say.
Saionji:  That's the kind of guy you are. You play the gentleman, but you've never really loved anyone, and you see everyone else only as pawns to be controlled. That was your strength. But can that sword of yours defeat her now?

Note "That was your strength." I also wonder if Touga didn't tell her who ends of the world was because he thought it might throw her off, and make her lose. Read this scene between him and Akio, from the previous episode:

Akio:  Looks like I won the game.
Touga:  Nope. It's a draw.
Touga:  She didn't like the present after all. Just like I thought.
Akio:  She was bewildered. Maybe you didn't pick a good gift-
Touga:  There was no mistake in the choice of gift. Besides, they suited her very well.
Akio:  I'd love to see that. She's supposed to become an attractive princess after all. Not a Prince, but a princess. I'm sure you agree.
Touga:  Well now. Who knows.

Akio, despite his greater experience, is too petrified (in both senses of the word) to believe that someone could get the better of him, or be his equal. Especially a 14-year-old girl. Whereas Touga is young enough that, although he can't acknowledge a woman could be better than him, he's at least open to the possibility in some way.

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#8 | Back to Top11-10-2009 10:28:30 PM

Charuru
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 06-05-2009
Posts: 90

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

I agree with Riri-kins completely. Saying that Touga is incapable of really falling in love, is just too mean. Yes, Utena inspired in him admiration, but why can't that be a source of real love?

In the interactions between Touga and Utena, I see a man who's already lost all power in a relationship but is trying to use his words to try to keep himself in control. We know that he can't, he probably knows that he can't, he is totally powerless, and he's not used to the lesser position. He doesn't find it easy to accept, but that he's still chasing her regardless means that he has really fallen for her.

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#9 | Back to Top12-07-2009 11:57:53 AM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Le necro.

I so need some Utena discussion as a breather from finals, yes yes.

Charuru wrote:

I agree with Riri-kins completely. Saying that Touga is incapable of really falling in love, is just too mean. Yes, Utena inspired in him admiration, but why can't that be a source of real love?

I'm not saying Touga is incapable of feeling love, not at all, but that at this point in the series, whatever feelings he does have are muddled by his own chauvinism and deeply hidden, in fact, almost untouched, insecurities and concerning Utena are misinterpreted and redirected into something they are not.  Love can grow from admiration, or the admiration itself can be a part of love - but the point I was trying to make is that this admiration of Touga's has only grown into a platonic love, which Touga doesn't really understand. And can you blame him?  I mean, look as his parents and how attractive he was even when little... love as something other than a method for achieving one's desire is almost unheard of for him.  Nanami truly does, in a very strange way, love him, but even this he sees as her loving him for own selfish reasons.  He sees no actual merit in it, which is why he's so false in his affections for her. 

Romantic love, however,  is described in great detail in all the stories, so he knows all the steps to take and moves to make, and has the nice added bonus of putting him in a dominant, and thus emotionally protected position.  Platonic/Romantic love are not the same thing. 

Besides, there are plenty of people who admire Utena in Ohtori.  You can admire a person without knowing anything about them, or admire them for select things.   What separates love from simple admiration is loving that person in their totality -truly accepting and even loving their flaws, their talents, and even those mundane things inbetween such as how they lick their thumbs before turning a page.  Touga doesn't know any of Utena's little idiosyncrasies as well as he believes himself to.  He can admire her easily enough, in his mind, love her from afar, but as a couple....how was it Gio put it?  All would be well until she walked across the living room carpet in her muddied cleats. 

Take it in contrast to Utena and Anthy.  By the end of the last episode, Utena knows Anthy's flaws, and they are none too small and cannot in any sane way be passed off as endearing....and loves her anyway.  There is something about Anthy, flaws and all, that makes Utena happy beyond what they both feared was simply a case of being a princess to her prince. 

And I still stand by that Touga's love for Utena was selfish (to an extent, all love is, but his in particular).  The reason he loved the things Utena represented moreso than all the other living,  breathing people that came across her was because those are all the same things he lacks.  Saving her symbolically saves himself, in his eyes.  But once he fails to do so (once again, from his own perspective, and not Utena's) he doesn't really try all that hard.  He takes her loss of innocence and nobility at the hands of Akio and Anthy as a sure thing, just like it was for him, because deep down he is a pessimist of the highest caliber.  He doesn't hit on her any further because there is nothing to gain from doing so. 

If his love had truly been romantic and unselfish, had been based on something more than simply admiration and a desire to complete himself, then he would have sacrificed for her.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (12-08-2009 08:34:07 PM)

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#10 | Back to Top12-07-2009 01:03:02 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
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Re: Does Touga love Utena?

I agree, OiTL, but you know...I've always wondered about his last duel.

We tend to pick apart his choice, and his motivations, and rightly so for they're so questionable. But at the same time..consider what a damn awkward position Akio put him in. I've often made the mistake of acting like Akio was taking a nap or something during Touga's last duel, but really, why would he start teasing chance that late in things? Realistically...what could Touga have done? He makes the decision we expect him to, a fairly selfish one, even if it is motivated by some amount of genuine feeling and wanting to save her. But was there anything selfless he could have done at that point? I think part of the reason he falls into line so easily is that he realizes ultimately what Saionji knew all along--that he's completely powerless to change the course of events laid out in front of him. Why not be selfish? What other option was there? Short of killing Akio or Utena, I really doubt anything he could have done would have mattered. Telling Utena the truth? Good luck getting her to listen. Calling the cops to report statutory rape and get Akio kicked out? Rofl. Burning down the duel arena? Arson's proved real useful in the past, eh? We always accuse him of being unwilling to make a sacrifice for Utena's sake, but really I don't think we can make that judgment call based on what happens. I doubt he would have anyway, but still--in his position, what would you have done that was oh so noble and selfless that was really going to matter in the end?

Because I can't think of anything.

I think that's what's so tragic about Touga. We argue degrees, but I think most of us will agree there's a reflective change in him, maybe a potential there at the end to actually truly love someone. But really...it wouldn't have mattered either which way. Even if it was True Love, it'd be true love for an unstoppable force. He could never have saved Utena from her fate.

Like I said, I don't think it was True Love...far be it for the show to send such a mixed message. But I can't help but wonder from a distance if the show didn't corner itself that way anyway. Would True Love have mattered for him?


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#11 | Back to Top12-07-2009 01:20:07 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Interesting point.  I can't say what I would do that would work, but that's the thing.  Touga is right about his chances of success, but he won't even try?  Imagine if it were Utena... she would have no concern for whether or not it would work, she would relentlessly and misguidedly plow forward to try and help....she's a fool.  Touga's ability to calculate outcomes and act accordingly is both his strength and his weakness, because he may be able to help those or himself in situations, but he won't ever be able to understand the sake of doing something or standing up or believing in something for the sake of itself. 

But I will retract the whole thing about sacrifice, since there really isn't anything he could sacrifice, except for maybe his pride...?

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#12 | Back to Top12-07-2009 01:40:08 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
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Re: Does Touga love Utena?

There is of course, the other option. Which is so obvious I think we all ignore it. emot-keke

Touga's not going to come out and say to Utena 'Hey I'm gonna beat you so I'm served up to the slaughter instead.' It would create too many questions that it wouldn't matter if he answered, and it would make her try to stop him...on the off chance she believed him. We hear him challenge her and assume he's doing it for his usual reasons...but he does seem to know far better than we're giving him credit for at that point what the victor actually will become. He warns her after she wins. He knows what's coming...and he knows it ain't got a thing to do with miracles, power, or shiny shit.

In other words, Touga is doing the most noble, self-sacrificing thing he could do. He's trying to take her place...but he can only do that by playing by Akio's rules, in the hopes that Akio will stay constrained within them should Touga win. (Which would be an astute assumption even if it were wrong.) A selfless act should have been rewarded with success, so perhaps it wasn't purely selfless...but had Touga won, he assumes he would have to take on whatever fate Akio had chosen for Utena, or if he does buy all this shit about a princess (I don't think he does, and I don't think Akio expects him to) he ruins the game by not being able to fill that role.

Of course, he might also have expected failure, making it a largely empty gesture. So we still don't know if he was acting out of love or not. emot-gonk

Touga's a jerk for being so complicated.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#13 | Back to Top12-07-2009 10:04:09 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Taking what you say into account, it could totally be love he is acting out of, just... like I still believe, a platonic love, not a romantic one like he thinks.



AND DO U MEAN HIS BODY GIO???  8D

You know what...someone...and I dun know who, should write a fic in which Touga tries to use his money and his family's status, among other assets, to sway Mrs. Ohtori into rethinking Akio's position as Chairman....and call it "Small Pond."

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#14 | Back to Top12-07-2009 11:59:06 PM

Katzenklavier
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

I fully agree with OiTL on most points here. I don't think Touga was truly capable of selfless love for Utena, so much as he was inspired by the ideal of her. That said, I do believe he underwent a significant transformation that was inspired by her influence - much like all the other duelists. He discovered he was in a coffin. At one point, he notes how his chauvinistic princely facade is old-fashioned. Not simply the ideal, but I interpret that he comes to realize that his old ways basically constrict and constrain him, and no longer define who he really is. But, much like Juri and her locket, he can't fully detach from everything he wants. Utena's princehood inspires him to a different image; that of altruism and sacrifice. Much like she dueled him before to regain herself, he is trying to do the same in the final duel.

Thus, I feel his reasons are quite selfish, but not meaningless. His admiration (I'd use that word rather than love) for Utena has inspired him to try and develop into a more fitting role. It's been noted that he takes Utena's loss of innocence for granted, being as he's so deeply pessimistic. I see it as that he perceived her as being the only thing pure enough to break his belief pattern that the strong by force. As Gio pointed out, however, he couldn't exactly do much except try to take the swords for her in the end.

Your whole dissection, Gio, has made me wonder what a finale would look like with Touga there instead. Just gotta picture it...

"And you will be mine for all eternity...now I will retrieve the sword that will lead us to our destiny. Bend over."
"Yessir! Do you mind if I lick your princely boots while I'm down here?"
"Well, only because you asked nicely. Be sure to use extra saliva around those scuff marks, princess."


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#15 | Back to Top12-08-2009 12:24:28 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Giovanna wrote:

Of course, he might also have expected failure, making it a largely empty gesture. So we still don't know if he was acting out of love or not. emot-gonk

He could have been acting out of love but still expected to fail, a la Kierkegaard's knight of infinite resignation. Or perhaps he's a knight of faith, and believes they will be together in another life...

which means I have to start another thread...

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#16 | Back to Top12-09-2009 02:21:35 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

The trajectory of his feelings for Utena parallel Utena's evolving feelings for Anthy: most especially the resolution to rescue someone without thinking through all the implications of what rescue actually means; of giving condescending love; not realizing how it feels to be loved in a condescending way; and not realizing the depth of their feelings until after it is (almost) too late.

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#17 | Back to Top12-10-2009 09:31:34 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

For me, it's very hard to see Touga's failure to inform Utena of EOTW's identity as anything other than petulance. Which proves nothing really about whether he "loved" her. In fact, I find the question to be largely semantic in nature. If you think that love requires you to put the needs and desires of your love object above your own, then I can't accept that he loved her. I don't think he was ever really willing to give anything up for Utena, or even seriously considered the possibility that he should. Granted he didn't have the power to stop Akio, if he had any balls, he could have at least made him find another tool.

On the other hand, if love means very strong affection, admiration even, desire... he may well experience all of those. It might not even be entirely selfish, but I don't think Touga has the emotional maturity to recognize that he was being selfish. In fact, he may have thought he was being generous by pursuing Utena. Didn't all women want him? I imagine for a while he even thought her refusal was just playing hard-to-get, and that she was secretly into him the whole time (to be fair, she maybe was a little). I think that part at least has disappeared at the end, and he may recognize that Utena is something different from all the other girls. I think he really didn't get that until then.

So whether that adds up to love depends on your definition. emot-tongue


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
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#18 | Back to Top12-11-2009 12:07:51 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

It would be interesting to get a Japanese speaker in this thread. When Touga says "I love you" in Episode 36 (if that's indeed what he says), what words are he using? How serious are they in Japanese? Are they what you say to, for example, a sister, or a lover, or a friend?

Last edited by minervana (12-11-2009 12:08:05 AM)

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#19 | Back to Top12-11-2009 10:47:45 PM

Frau Eva
Voodoo Queen
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 803

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

minervana wrote:

It would be interesting to get a Japanese speaker in this thread. When Touga says "I love you" in Episode 36 (if that's indeed what he says), what words are he using? How serious are they in Japanese? Are they what you say to, for example, a sister, or a lover, or a friend?

Ah, I might totally be making it up in my brain, but I'm pretty sure he used "aishiteru," which is pretty hardcore(now I want to go back and watch that episode to make sure). Most people use "tsuki" when they love each other(including people who are dating), but can also be used for your favorite ice cream. Given how reserved the Japanese tend to be, him using anything farther up from "tsuki" is really damn serious.

The thing that has REALLY got to me is the whole "If I win, you become my woman" thing. Because it's Touga. He knows his way around the ladies, and he knows exactly how disgusting that's going to make him look. Even in the beginning of the series, he was never THAT much of an asshole; it's not the words of a playboy who wins women through sweet words, and even his body language and facial expressions are far harsher and meaner than he ever was with her. He simply has way too much social know-how to do something like that and mean it, expecting to get it. And even then, Touga's a douche, but he doesn't want an unwilling fuckdoll. He doesn't want to come home and have sex with a woman who despises him for putting her in this position and thus make her hate him even more. It's an insane proposition all around if it were true.

It's a diversion. If he came out and said he was going to try and win in order to sacrifice himself, she would resist and he would almost undoubtedly lose. If he can throw her off the path, make her think that he's doing it for completely selfish reasons, make her HATE him, then she's not going to examine it. He knows Utena isn't the brightest when it comes to people's motivations and intentions. She's going to fight, and if she loses, won't feel bad if she thinks he's just getting what he deserves in the end, and move on with life after the duels. I think that Ruka and Touga's similar character design and council position was intentional. I mean, it's a pretty similar gambit. And if you think of it in the context of the night before, of him accepting that night as the last time he can be with her and it being "enough"...and then pulling that dick move the VERY NEXT DAY? He knew what he was planning would destroy that possibility utterly(whatever little of it was there in the first place). And while Touga may be very rusty on being good and unselfish, I think what he's basically attempting to do here is just that.

And really, if everyone else is transformed so much by the end of the series, why should Touga be any less? Because him just being nice to Saionji isn't the main crux behind his issues, that just takes care of Saionji. Everyone tends to assume that he just keeps on being a womanizing jerk, and while he may need more polishing, he had to have made a great personal change towards happiness like everyone else.

TOUGA YOUR SUFFERING IS DELICIOUS. etc-love He's accepted that he is not a prince, but perhaps a knight...to put himself in danger for the courtly lady he cannot have.

Last edited by Frau Eva (12-11-2009 10:54:37 PM)


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#20 | Back to Top12-12-2009 11:56:28 PM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

I re-watched the scene; it sounds like he uses the word "tsuki." However, he uses the word "aishteru" when asking Utena about Akio. Interesting.

Here's the scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCAM_PNkTvM

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#21 | Back to Top05-09-2011 06:35:48 AM

Gainel
Rose Bride
Registered: 07-08-2010
Posts: 116

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

I agree with Frau Eva.

I think Touga does love Utena. Some people may say he's fooling himself, but it doesn't seem like it to me.

Anyway, it IS at least clear that he is very attracted to her, and it's also very probable that the feeling is mutual. Not just when she thought he was her prince - only before Akio overshadowed everyone else. She's almost always become flustered when Touga involves her in something.

I think Akio made her sort of forget about everyone, even Anthy, but especially Touga.

Saying the relationship would never work isn't entirely true, I don't think... you'd just have to get Utena to admit that she likes Touga, which would take some doing.


Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing not to put it on a fruit salad.

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#22 | Back to Top05-10-2011 07:33:54 AM

TougaxAnthy
New Student
From: your closet
Registered: 05-10-2011
Posts: 3

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

No, Touga loves Anthy. school-eng101


Your prince was a guy like me, wasn't he?

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#23 | Back to Top05-10-2011 08:18:34 AM

Chrome Homura
Poor Saionji :(
From: Oregon, USA
Registered: 06-07-2010
Posts: 517

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Katzenklavier wrote:

"And you will be mine for all eternity...now I will retrieve the sword that will lead us to our destiny. Bend over."
"Yessir! Do you mind if I lick your princely boots while I'm down here?"
"Well, only because you asked nicely. Be sure to use extra saliva around those scuff marks, princess."

I lol'd.

TougaxAnthy wrote:

No, Touga loves Anthy. school-eng101

Again, I lol'd. So many lolz!


Sorry I don't have anything else to add to the analysis/discussion... but reading this thread did make me look at Touga's final duel in a way I hadn't considered before. Thanks, IRG!


"My blood is steel, my heart is glass... I have emerged unvanquished from many battles... Never have I been put to flight, but neither have I stood victorious... This bearer stands here alone, forging steel atop a hill of blades... for that reason, my life has never needed meaning. My body has always...

been made of infinite swords!"

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#24 | Back to Top05-10-2011 10:13:18 AM

Absolute Apocalypse
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 08-24-2010
Posts: 25

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Unfortunately, Touga is one of the least explained characters in the student council when it comes to his intentions.

And it didn't help that the voice actor was on vacations during the whole second season.


"Challenging the sword of dios with a simple bamboo practice sword?" etc-saiowank

Always do things the saionji way.

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#25 | Back to Top05-27-2011 01:36:47 AM

CausalityStar
Caretaker
From: Idaho
Registered: 09-12-2010
Posts: 215

Re: Does Touga love Utena?

Katzenklavier wrote:

Your whole dissection, Gio, has made me wonder what a finale would look like with Touga there instead. Just gotta picture it...

"And you will be mine for all eternity...now I will retrieve the sword that will lead us to our destiny. Bend over."
"Yessir! Do you mind if I lick your princely boots while I'm down here?"
"Well, only because you asked nicely. Be sure to use extra saliva around those scuff marks, princess."

That was awesome. We need fanfics and fanarts of this now!

I think the person I agree with most on this thread is OnlyInThisLight. I think Touga might love Utena, but in a really messed up convoluted sort of way. He definitely doesn't love her at the beginning of this series; he loves the Power of Dios. Most of his interactions with Utena consist of screwing with her head and making her think that he's her prince so he can win his duel.

Later on it seems that he admires her and that her influence has changed his life, but he still puts her on a pedestal as a princess. He doesn't truly love Utena, but rather he loves an idealization of her as a princess. I think it's possible that his love for her is more platonic than romantic like OITL said but he convinced himself that his love is more romantic because his chauvinism says that men are supposed to love and save women, not admire and be influenced by them. I think the idea of Utena as Touga's prince is very interesting. She does influence and help a lot of people so maybe Utena is everyone's prince.

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