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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top06-27-2009 06:55:09 PM

YostinAust
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From: Tallahassee, Florida
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Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Now, this comes from the idea that nothing in the series actually happened. What if what we're watcdhing is the overdramatized personal narratives of the lives of a group of unpopular, messed up teens? Now think about this. I know/used to sit at lunch with a bunch of fucked up kids who had few ties to people outside their group and a tendedncy to see themselves as much more powerful than they really were (sorry, I know "powerful makes it sound like DBZ, but I mean pretty, athletic, artistic, musical, etc.). In the movie, when the student council remarks that it's because of Utena's hang-ups and insecurities that she can participate in the duels, I thought "wow, that does not sound like the qualifications necessary to be in the Ohtori Super Secret Cool Rich Kids club". Now, I know its inspiring to think that art and granduer are born out of pain and neurosis, but that ideal is about as real as the ideal of the magnificent "starving artist". What if all the shananuigans of the series are really just built up in their minds? I don't know, it's been bugging me for awhile.


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#2 | Back to Top06-27-2009 07:13:09 PM

spoon-san
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

I can see it like that, but I more can see it as reflecting the dramatic lives of popular people who over-dramatize everything in the first place and have delusions that people look up to them and want to be special just like them when in reality, no one cares (at least I never did and I recall rejecting a hot jock back in HS emot-dance mostly because it didn't seem genuine.).  So yeah.  Though I see Anthy as the true power of the little people who have to clean up after everyone's shit but who win in the end, nonetheless.  But yeah, even Akio represents someone who impresses people with his sham-artistery.  It's really funny and it makes me feel sad to watch a cool, down to earth (minus the prince obsession), nice girl get strung along by a regular playboy sham-artist.  So yeah.

Last edited by spoon-san (06-27-2009 07:13:57 PM)

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#3 | Back to Top06-27-2009 07:24:42 PM

YostinAust
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Although I like the Eddie Izzard reference, I'm guessing your high school experience differs from mine. You're probaly living in a Nashville (my own terminology for any backwards hellhole where high school kids act like middle school posers). Or pehaps we're talking about different concepts of cool kids (old school skanks & jocks versus preps & hipsters).


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#4 | Back to Top06-27-2009 08:06:45 PM

spoon-san
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

I live in a pretty suburban/urban area (and never saw the film mentioned edit: Oh, comedian, nvm...I don't get out much.) but I was basically mentioning people who think they are some god in their social sphere (it doesn't just have to be school preps or w/e) and think those out of their crowd of prominence wishes they were just like them.  I actually see more of these people on online games and internet forums (not here, I don't think, but elsewhere). 

What you were talking about, I thought, was unpopular people versus popular people.  I mean, I can see both fitting but personally I see the main cast as mostly being of the popular crowd (minus Anthy, the resident creep/weirdo) who over-dramatize their lives.

However, to go with the original idea, yeah, I could also see the student council representing people who really are ignored/neglected but who desire power and desire to be worshiped by those in their social sphere and who act all godlike and stuff (which makes sense if you see the deity allegory in SKU concerning the student council and how those involved in the duels are more reflecting demi-gods and super humans.).

But I think we may be talking about the same kind of people.  The people you were referencing sound a lot like those whom I sort of hung around in my high school days...the outcasts who literally hung out in a sort of 'island' away from the others but there existed a lot of those who were the big cats and were surrounded by the other 'weird outcast kids.'  So in other words, those who are like 'anti-prep' but think they are really great despite them really not in terms of reality, or at least being no better than the 'cool kids' whom they snub.

Having said that, I could see where 'those' sort of people envision themselves as something super special and elite despite being totally not in terms of reality.  And to interpret SKU in that sense is novel and would cause for a very interesting spin on how most people perceive SKU if they take it more at face value.  But even if you don't interpret it that way, you can say that most of the cast, if not all, involve teenagers who think they are special but aren't because they are just kids fighting for something pretend anyways.  And again, it's like watching elitists on online games.  The same or similar principle, just not nearly as epic.

To a degree, though, I would exempt Anthy from being another mundane teenager since she is 'the witch' and there's little question that everyone hates her and is out to get her (minus Utena, perhaps)...but that's a different discussion altogether so bypass that idea.

If I don't make sense, just ignore my input.  I'm not sure what I write half the time.

Last edited by spoon-san (06-27-2009 08:26:51 PM)

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#5 | Back to Top06-27-2009 08:22:53 PM

YostinAust
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

That was great. But what film reference? I referenced a comedian and a city... oh, and I see what you mean. I meant anyone who takes the group they are in and themselves too seriously, and I did not describe my point well at all thanks for doing it for me. I brought up uncool kids because i thought it would be more interesting (spastic utena! pimply Touga! bad fanfic writing Saionji!).

Last edited by YostinAust (06-27-2009 08:23:07 PM)


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#6 | Back to Top06-27-2009 08:36:35 PM

Razara
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

High school... "losers"? Is that a bad thing? emot-frown

*Hugs the Black Rose duelists*

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#7 | Back to Top06-27-2009 09:04:37 PM

YostinAust
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

But htier the worst! Or best, if you think the non student council members are the actual good people. But they're just good people who took too big a whiff of Schopenhauer and went over the edge. And I love them too. And I wish i wasn't crippled by horrible anxiety every time i try and write something that's not required for school, I would be writing Tsuwabuki 007, my dream fusion of SKU, Bond, existentialism, and blond on blonde leading romance.


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#8 | Back to Top06-27-2009 10:47:47 PM

spoon-san
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Yes, the Black Rose Duelists need a serious group-therapy session, Though I don't think Mikage or Akio should lead it.

As for anxiety, well, just write!  It's easy for me to say, but really, that's the way to go.  You don't have to share it right away either, if you don't want to (I write a lot of non-fiction SKU stuff that I don't post.).  It's like having anxiety about getting on stage...the more you do it, the better, and it lessens a little each time (I don't like being on a stage but I have to do it like at least thirty some times in a year, so yeah.).

Last edited by spoon-san (06-27-2009 10:48:12 PM)

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#9 | Back to Top06-28-2009 04:08:14 PM

Giovanna
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

You know, from the opposite angle, if I understand you correctly, it works just as well. I remember high school being very, very segregated. Cool kids, not cool kids, and the cool kids had this larger than life celebrity about them. Truly, it looked a lot like Ohtori Academy, except without all the hot people. (Trust me, I ran into my principal a few times and he did not look like Akio. emot-gonk)

The joke is on them though, just like on the students of Ohtori. You can be a celebrity in your school, and amount to nothing later on. Your status in school really doesn't have as much bearing as people think on who you become--as evidenced by high school reunions. No wonder they're hesitant to leave that garden, where they're something...and may end up nothing. We never assume the normal students have the same problem, and...why would they? Case in point, Tokiko and Nemuro. One of them was fairly ordinary, and moved on. One was 'special', and couldn't.

It could definitely be a bunch of students just living it up in their own heads, with these hugely overdramatized senses of themselves. After all it's the most miserable students that have the most active fantasy lives. I'm not sure I go by the theory, if only because it kinda guts any further relevance in the 'message' of the show and that would make me sadpants.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#10 | Back to Top06-28-2009 07:47:08 PM

Hiraku
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

There's a scene in Utena that might support what you've been thinking about Yostin,

Remember the episode immediately after Ruka's duel? The duel ended with Ruka breaking off with Shiori and told her that the sword she's been polishing was never his in the first place. And the next episode began with Shiori pulling on Ruka, surrounded by students.

Maybe, really, this was what the duel looked like to the "ordinary" students who are outside of the dueling circle.

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#11 | Back to Top06-28-2009 09:06:36 PM

YostinAust
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Wow, hiraku, hadn't thought of that...

Well, it could be any closed in group. My high school is actually surprisingly integrated - even though there are different levels of superiority, most people still hang out with whoever they feel like. I just noticed a disturbing trend and thought maybe SKU could be this taken to its extreme. And perhaps Akio need not be the principle. He could just be a scummy older man who seeks to razzle and dazzle some high school kids because that's all he can do at his level of maturity. But the ordinary=good extraordinary=bad thing seems like wishful or happy-to-be-provacative thinking to me. Nemuro was about as important as Tokiko (less even, wasn't she his boss?). And Tokiko didn't necessarily move on to greener pastures. Akio seemed to be gloating that in his little world he got to be king while in the real world Tokiko was just a housewife. when Utena and Anthy leave it seems that their specialness will aid in their future success. Not to say successes can't fail and failures can't succeed, it just doesn't seem to be the usual course of events.


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#12 | Back to Top06-28-2009 09:46:48 PM

Hiraku
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Individuals' own successes and failures, other than a dab of luck, are usually up to what they do with the things they have, Yostin. But, looking at things from the point of view of those who are going through these life changing events, we can't really say Tokiko's life get worse because she ended up a housewife. Maybe she likes the life she has now, and that's more important. Utena and Anthy, they're still kids. They're gonna go through a shitload of hell and a shitload of things they don't want to do along with the things they want to do before entering adulthood where they'll be getting jobs, getting income, paying bills, all that stuff.

I digress.

I think the reason why Utena and Anthy's "specialness" will aid them because knowing them, they'd definitely make good use of what they've got. But, until Utena meets Anthy again, though, hard to say what she'll do with her princely personality. For the time being, she might be like Tokiko, kind of resigned with what life takes her. Anthy on the other hand...

[/end rant]

In any case, Yostin, just want to put it out there, you just made Akio sound like some kind of sick child molester emot-rofl

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#13 | Back to Top06-28-2009 10:06:14 PM

spoon-san
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

you just made Akio sound like some kind of sick child molester

Technically he is a sick child molester.  I mean, he abducts kids in an Akio Mobile, commits incest, lies, cheats, plays a part in adulterous relationships.  Let's face it, when Dios split, he really went off the deep end.

Last edited by spoon-san (06-28-2009 10:06:38 PM)

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#14 | Back to Top06-29-2009 04:24:20 AM

Bluesky
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

spoon-san wrote:

you just made Akio sound like some kind of sick child molester

Technically he is a sick child molester.  I mean, he abducts kids in an Akio Mobile, commits incest, lies, cheats, plays a part in adulterous relationships.  Let's face it, when Dios split, he really went off the deep end.

Exactly the reason I found it very difficult to warm to him as a character. I wonder how well he'd cope outside of Ohtori?


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#15 | Back to Top06-29-2009 06:35:32 AM

Hiraku
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

spoon-san wrote:

you just made Akio sound like some kind of sick child molester

Technically he is a sick child molester.  I mean, he abducts kids in an Akio Mobile, commits incest, lies, cheats, plays a part in adulterous relationships.  Let's face it, when Dios split, he really went off the deep end.

Well... yeah, but I was referring to... the more UN-sexy child molester you see on the news. The kind who might have spent their lives in trailer park, doing nothing but surfing online looking at CP. Really shaggy hair and flabby gut and all that UN-sexy stuff

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#16 | Back to Top06-29-2009 07:24:18 AM

YostinAust
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

But that's the point. I know a lot of teens who think that any adults who will associate will them and come down to their level are cool and desirable. Case in point, I was at a friends birthday party recently and there was this 22-year-old named Nick. Nick was hairy and grooss, but he freely associated with the girls my age, who in return thought of him as cute. He did not associate with people his own age, probably because he was an immature douche. But the girls didn't keep this in mind. Now I was thinking Akio could be similar. The students ignore his balding and his flab because OMG he has a car and a house and a beer!


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#17 | Back to Top06-29-2009 08:32:57 AM

Hiraku
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

YostinAust wrote:

But that's the point. I know a lot of teens who think that any adults who will associate will them and come down to their level are cool and desirable. Case in point, I was at a friends birthday party recently and there was this 22-year-old named Nick. Nick was hairy and grooss, but he freely associated with the girls my age, who in return thought of him as cute. He did not associate with people his own age, probably because he was an immature douche. But the girls didn't keep this in mind. Now I was thinking Akio could be similar. The students ignore his balding and his flab because OMG he has a car and a house and a beer!

That's one of the most amazing thing I will remember. I hope when Akio steps out of the campus, he won't "magically" turn into a hairy, flabby gross blob of a man

Last edited by Hiraku (06-29-2009 08:33:31 AM)

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#18 | Back to Top06-29-2009 01:56:45 PM

Riri-kins
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Are they messed up? Yes. Are they melodramatic? With the exception of Nanami, no.

I think the Student Council always suspected there was something more to Ohtori then everyone else before they formed. Yet because they were either power-hungry, unable to let go of the past, or just plain obsessive they fell just short of seeing that they were End of the World's puppets.

Their problems and goals are much deeper then average high school drama. Few students I knew talked about eternity or miracles on a daily basis.  That's why they're special.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#19 | Back to Top06-29-2009 02:12:51 PM

Syora
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Riri-kins wrote:

Their problems and goals are much deeper then average high school drama. Few students I knew talked about eternity or miracles on a daily basis.  That's why they're special.

I agree with this. They accumulated power because they wanted eternity and miracles. Their goals and dreams exist within Ohtori, so I think that until they resolve their issues at school, the future will not start for them. Completely different from high school losers whose life will not start after the crappy cesspool that is high school.

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#20 | Back to Top06-29-2009 02:13:59 PM

Hiraku
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Riri-kins wrote:

Their problems and goals are much deeper then average high school drama. Few students I knew talked about eternity or miracles on a daily basis.  That's why they're special.

Hm...true. But, the reason behind their desires is nonetheless high-school teen-oriented. Saionji wanted his friend back. Shiori wants to beat Juri's "awesomeness". Juri wants Shiori to know her "secret" feelings, etc.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it "stupid" or "loser". The way they handled their problems is far from mature, but I think what makes them seem less "loser"-like is... actually, I'm not sure

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#21 | Back to Top06-29-2009 02:17:20 PM

Syora
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

I don't think they're high school teen oriented in that they are people oriented. Everyone suffers from loneliness and abandonment like Saionji. Everyone wants to measure up like Shiori, it doesn't matter if you're 5 years old and want to play better softball or if you're 45 and your mother still thinks you're inadequate compared to your brother. This is why so many of us can relate to Utena. If it were about a bunch of high school loser it'd be more like the Breakfast Club and not like Utena.

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#22 | Back to Top06-29-2009 02:25:42 PM

Riri-kins
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Hiraku wrote:

Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it "stupid" or "loser". The way they handled their problems is far from mature, but I think what makes them seem less "loser"-like is... actually, I'm not sure

I think it's because they tried to solve their problems through dueling instead of just going to pieces. Granted it wasn't the right way to do it, but that's more than somebody like Keiko would have done.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#23 | Back to Top06-29-2009 03:07:44 PM

Melancholic_Soul
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Riri-kins wrote:

Hiraku wrote:

Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it "stupid" or "loser". The way they handled their problems is far from mature, but I think what makes them seem less "loser"-like is... actually, I'm not sure

I think it's because they tried to solve their problems through dueling instead of just going to pieces. Granted it wasn't the right way to do it, but that's more than somebody like Keiko would have done.

That reminds me of the person looking for a way out that doesn't involve loosing his or her sanity, but ends up going insane anyway....

Or people trying to avoid war, but create one in the process...

I think the duelists were evading one problem, beause they forsaw bad results, but didn't have the experience to realize the road they chose was even more dangerous. Just like many of us who were in highschool and decided to try escaping a problem and ended up making it worse. Like trying to be more popular than you were, and losing the only friends you had and gaining people you couldn't even call friend. Or even trying to disguise a bad hair day with some oddity or other, but it only serves to accentuate it. Or even trying to date someone because they're the cutest guy/girl at school, only to find out that person is a total jerk.

Although if they were losers I'd put them in the following categories...

Anthy- The Shy Kid, unable to say no to the person pretending to be nice to her no matter if she knows they have bad intentions...

Saionji- The Awkward Kid, no one wants to sit by him...EVER.... he may be good at a few things, but social interaction is not one of them...

Touga- The Horny Dog, girls hate him, as he's always hitting on them with his horrible pick up lines...also he brags about sex, but everyone knows he's a virgin...

Miki- The Mental Prodigy, Miki *thinks* he's a prodigy, but honestly he's just good at making everyone else feel bad when they seem less smart them him...he's the kid that get's C's but thinks he's better than his class....

Juri- The Unintentional Loner... scary... but not in an admiral way... May not be a bully, but can be exceptionally mean...and people would rather avoid that... possibly a bitch too...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/anthy_utena/rukasan.gif Believing in the power of Love and Justice since 1999
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#24 | Back to Top06-29-2009 04:05:27 PM

Giovanna
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

Hiraku wrote:

That's one of the most amazing thing I will remember. I hope when Akio steps out of the campus, he won't "magically" turn into a hairy, flabby gross blob of a man

I hate you. emot-frown

But it's a valid point. Akio clearly 'relates' or at least prefers to interact with younger people. For better or worse because he's mentally still one himself. Either he's that pathetic, or we can do the cynic's route (which he certainly would) and propose that except for having given up on larger goals, adults are just as absurd, self-important, and petty anyway. The few examples of adults in the show, aside from Tokiko, would definitely reinforce this.

Melancholic--that's making me think of how in high school once in a while one of the super popular kids would crumple under the weight of their fame and then piss and moan about HOW HARD BEING A CHEERLEADER IS or OH GOD IT'S SO HARD BEING POPULAR and the rest of us thought 'Cry me a fucking river.' Except now, as adults, a lot of people follow the lives of celebrities with the same wondering awe and far less of the cynicism. I know grown adult women who feel for Spears and her ilk because oh god it's so hard being rich and famous. emot-frown emot-frown emot-frown

Actually it's also as hard to pay a mortgage on an income half what the mortgage was taken under, feed your children, and get by month to month. But that's much less glamorous. The school metaphor here seems to me very similar--it doesn't really matter whether they truly were popular or whether this was all blown up in their heads, everyone, but everyone's life seems to them a dramatic epic.

Another direction we could take there is that your descriptions, the awkward kid, the horny dog, were at some point exactly what these kids were. There are plenty of reasons why they're what they are in the show instead. Akio sniffing out potential and hoisting them to the Seitokai couldn't have hurt, but more likely, if Ohtori is the garden where no one ever ages or dies...what if these kids have lived dozens of high school lives without ever noticing it? They'd have developed their perverted set of skills and lack of skills to work for them within the small frame of their current environment. The Awkward middle school Saionji had more than two or three years of high school to develop into the cold and distant vicious thing he presents to hide that awkwardness--but it's still there. Touga the horny dog? It's still true--all that's changed with the passage of time is technique. So in the end you have what you have in the older characters, Akio and Anthy and Nemuro/Mikage--these creatures trapped between being adolescents and being adults, having learns bits and pieces of the latter without growing into it.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#25 | Back to Top06-29-2009 04:27:30 PM

Melancholic_Soul
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Re: Could the cast of Utena really just be a bunch of high school losers?

That definitely makes sense. A sort of graduation in age without proper maturity. Although that's so much the case these days, but on a smaller scale...


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