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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top03-06-2009 06:49:57 PM

gsilver
New Student
Registered: 02-28-2009
Posts: 7

Did Ruka really die?

The shadow girls talk about his death quite explicitly, yet aside from that scene, they never say anything that clearly. Even the story of the Witch was allegorical.

An interpretation of his 'death' is merely leaving the school, graduating and not returning. A metaphor for his 'graduation' could easily be 'death'.


A wizard did it.

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#2 | Back to Top03-06-2009 08:57:16 PM

NajiMinkin
Hacker Ringleader
From: The Incredible Edible Egg
Registered: 06-23-2007
Posts: 2537

Re: Did Ruka really die?

In the last episode, they were talking about how they couldn't remember if Utena had died, graduated or transferred. Intentionally, I would assume, Ikuhara left it up to us to decide what that means. I mean, he seems to do that with most everything in the series.

My interpretation is along the lines of SKU being allegorical for transforming from a child to an adult and coming to terms with who oneself is. So I kind of take graduating/death/etc. as meaning they "grew up" or "moved on" or "recovered from whatever crazy complex they might have had." But in Ruka's case, I really don't know. It didn't quite seem to me like he reached any healthy conclusions before he "died" in either the manga or the anime. Although what he did was along the lines of Utena; he tried to save the person he loved from the other person who was having a notably adverse effect on them. In Utena's case, she succeeded; in Ruka's, it didn't seem to me like he did quite enough.

Eh, really, your guess is as good as anyone else's, I would posit.


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#3 | Back to Top03-06-2009 11:08:47 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: Did Ruka really die?

I think you could probably interpret it either way. Although the shadow girls play is pretty ominous, but they are supposedly metaphorical. It is disturbing that this story of theirs is the most literal of all their stories.


20 threads dead so far.

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#4 | Back to Top03-07-2009 02:16:56 PM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Did Ruka really die?

Naji made a good point, it's really up to the viewer.

Personally, I like to think he really did die. Didn't his episodes have the comet metaphor in it? It was something along the lines of only being able to shine for a short time and then disappearing; much like Ruka's comeback to Ohtori and the subsequent leave. I guess you can take his "death" in many ways but he really was sick and sometimes people don't make it. Even in anime.


The Saionji Support Squad:
Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

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#5 | Back to Top03-07-2009 04:22:13 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Did Ruka really die?

NajiMinkin wrote:

In the last episode, they were talking about how they couldn't remember if Utena had died, graduated or transferred. Intentionally, I would assume, Ikuhara left it up to us to decide what that means. I mean, he seems to do that with most everything in the series.

This comment, funnily enough, leans me towards the assumption Ruka died. To be frank I tended to think he had died anyway, given the comments made by the SPG, but the thing is, Mikage/Nemuro was explicitly stated to have graduated earlier in the series. Very few people leave Ohtori that we are aware of (and Saionji seems to be an example of how students can't leave without dispensation, no matter events in their life), and the only two we really see before the end are Mikage (graduates) and Ruka (dies). We then end with Anthy and Utena. Utena, we don't know if she's died, graduated or transferred. With the other two examples filled, we can perhaps assume she has simply left the school...which then gives us hope, because that is what Anthy chooses to do. And perhaps this means that one day, they will be able to meet again.

...wow, that totally rambled off the point. I think Ruka died. I probably should write an essay telling you why I think that. emot-gonk


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#6 | Back to Top03-08-2009 01:44:47 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Did Ruka really die?

I never thought he died until I came to this site/forum. And then I suddenly realized a whole heap of people thought he did. emot-biggrin

They make a VERY good case...

I guess I'm on the fence. I support interpretations of going to the outside world and trying (and prob miserably failing) to "get his shit together".
I also support the idea he turns to ash like a vampire, cos he's so darn old. And ash is dead.
But hang on Tokiko is around...whatsup with that? Hehehe.

Er regardless, he could be dead. Which is great in the sense that it's really depressing. *loves angst*
I also support (and love) the idea of Mamiya running into Anthy in the outside world and finally figuring out that Mamiya is still around, although he's er...devolved...

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#7 | Back to Top03-08-2009 01:52:55 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
Website

Re: Did Ruka really die?

sharnii wrote:

I guess I'm on the fence. I support interpretations of going to the outside world and trying (and prob miserably failing) to "get his shit together".
I also support the idea he turns to ash like a vampire, cos he's so darn old. And ash is dead.
But hang on Tokiko is around...whatsup with that? Hehehe.

Er regardless, he could be dead. Which is great in the sense that it's really depressing. *loves angst*
I also support (and love) the idea of Mamiya running into Anthy in the outside world and finally figuring out that Mamiya is still around, although he's er...devolved...

Ha ha, you remind me of a fic I wrote years ago, in which Nemuro graduated only to discover that although he'd been alive in the outside world the whole time, his body had been in a coma. So he woke up with the mind of his twenty-something self in the body of a sixty-something man who'd been in a deep coma for forty-odd years. Utena came to visit him. HE WASN'T HAPPY. Oddly enough. emot-gonk

And you know, you remind me that I always want more Mikage/Mamiya in the real world fic. But I haven't got the time to write it. [shakes fist at the sky]


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#8 | Back to Top03-14-2009 09:08:00 AM

Aika_san21
New Student
From: Lakeland, FL
Registered: 12-05-2006
Posts: 8

Re: Did Ruka really die?

Yes... yes he did.

LOL Well, thats my opinion at least. I don't I never questioned his dead-ness. I suppose you could definitly see it as allegorical and that he didnt really die, but I suppose I was just so damn happy he left that I never second guessed it. ^_~ Totally what he gets for molesting Juri, good intentioned or no. LOL emot-keke

Aika

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#9 | Back to Top03-14-2009 11:47:08 AM

Katzenklavier
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: Did Ruka really die?

I have but one thing to add to this discourse, and it's by far my most comprehensive analysis yet...

DING DONG, THE WITCH IS DEAD! WHICH OLD WITCH? THE WICKED WITCH! DING DONG, THE WICKED WITCH IS DEAD! *frolics around on Ruka's grave*


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#10 | Back to Top03-14-2009 07:52:24 PM

Aika_san21
New Student
From: Lakeland, FL
Registered: 12-05-2006
Posts: 8

Re: Did Ruka really die?

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

High Five Katvenklavier, high five. emot-keke

Aika

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#11 | Back to Top04-23-2009 08:28:52 PM

KillerxXxQueen
Snowdrop Lover
From: North Augusta, SC
Registered: 04-22-2009
Posts: 1760

Re: Did Ruka really die?

Yarp. He's dead. Fo sho. He definitely died in the manga, anyway. I suppose he could still be stalking around anime world with that crazed look in his eye...you know the one.

Actually, his character is a LOT different in the books. I suggest reading the story if you haven't--it's a bonus chapter at the end of the fifth volume.


"Reason I know is only a drug and, as such, its effects are never permanent."
                                                         --Hope Mirrlees, Lud-in-the-Mist

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#12 | Back to Top04-24-2009 12:15:15 PM

Soukougnan
Black Rosarian
From: home. sort of.
Registered: 01-02-2009
Posts: 373

Re: Did Ruka really die?

maybe i'm being romantic, but i like to think that he didn't die at all...
D;

that he, like Utena, had the strength to leave, though maybe he didn't quite resolve his "unfinished business" before then.
i don't even like Ruka, but it just seems to terribly lonely to think that he recovered just enough from a hospital to come back and try to win eternity for Juri, only to fail. AND DIE. emot-gonk

Last edited by Soukougnan (04-24-2009 12:15:54 PM)


what-- where did i go?

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#13 | Back to Top04-24-2009 02:07:22 PM

PrinceoftheLostEternity
Rose Assignee
From: Castle of Eternal Dark
Registered: 04-06-2009
Posts: 1720

Re: Did Ruka really die?

I seem to be agreeing with killerqueen a lot lately...But totally read the story. In the anime it's more implied by the Shadow Girls when they put on their little performace while Shiori and Juri are both still angsting about Ruka. They talk about someone die-ing and talking about how he was leaving ehind a girl he loved and some stuff. Basically, he was in love with Juri, and then he kicked it, leaving her behind. That's my verdict on the matter, anyway.


I want your love and I want your revenge, you and me can write a bad romance.

The profile formerly known as Prince... oftheLostEternity... was a shared profile, one of whose users hasn't been around for a while.  The other one is now posting as DiddlyPanda.  Wewt!  emot-biggrin

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#14 | Back to Top04-24-2009 03:39:50 PM

Bluesky
Chpn Dlst
From: Your window
Registered: 10-25-2008
Posts: 1939
Website

Re: Did Ruka really die?

My gut feeling was that he just moved on from Ohtori, making him as good as dead for them, if not literally so. For the shadow girls, since they only seem to exist inside that world, it would probably be the same thing.


/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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#15 | Back to Top04-24-2009 07:47:35 PM

Aine Silveria
Pumpkin Bride
From: Allegan, MI
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 2098

Re: Did Ruka really die?

It's not that black and white in the manga, to be honest. I always read it as that there was a slim chance he'd survived.


http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m526/aines_pixels/mikageirgsig02-2012.png

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#16 | Back to Top04-25-2009 08:36:13 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Did Ruka really die?

I come down on the dead side. Mind you, I'm actually a Ruka fan, and I don't care who knows it. emot-tongue But it seems like a bit of a stretch to assume that he's alive. The Shadow Girls as well as say that he's dead, he's been sick, and there's no evidence anywhere in the show that he DIDN'T die. Besides, it would diminish his horribly horribly angsty story otherwise.

Aaaaaaand. As others have suggested, it doesn't look like Ruka moved on. It looks a lot more like he gave up. Or just plain failed. The idea that he graduated and moved into the outside world, for me, would need some kind of...epiphany. I mean, maybe he realized that "freeing" Juri isn't for him to do, I guess you could call that some kind of enlightenment, but...nah, I think he's dead.


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
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#17 | Back to Top04-26-2009 12:34:46 PM

Aine Silveria
Pumpkin Bride
From: Allegan, MI
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 2098

Re: Did Ruka really die?

Okay, let's put it this way. I don't think Akio let Ruka die. I would think he kept him in reserve for the next round of duels. He could influence people all over again, be manipulated just as Mikage was. Depending on who he wanted to mess with, Ruka could be essential. (i.e. after Anthy's departure, he could make Shiori into the Rose Bride, using him.

Ruka is a potential tool. Akio never lets his tools leave his land unless they are completely worthless (i.e Mikage, and even then, I'm not sure if Mikage would be gone), and Ruka has potential still.


http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m526/aines_pixels/mikageirgsig02-2012.png

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#18 | Back to Top05-07-2009 09:49:07 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Did Ruka really die?

Clarice: And you know, you remind me that I always want more Mikage/Mamiya in the real world fic. But I haven't got the time to write it. [shakes fist at the sky]

Please please please get the time. I love that combo in the real world. poptart

Katz: DING DONG, THE WITCH IS DEAD!

Not quite the reaction I had seeing Juri stand outside the hospital room door but...hilarious nonetheless. emot-rofl

Chani: Ruka is a potential tool. Akio never lets his tools leave his land unless they are completely worthless (i.e Mikage, and even then, I'm not sure if Mikage would be gone), and Ruka has potential still.

A good point. And in line with this point...that means that Mikage could have "lived" before. He could potentially be as old as Anthy (yeah, you heard me, a gazillion years old) and have been the master of hundreds of cycles of black rose duels.

Only I suppose he can't be older than whatever style of clothing those hundred boys who die-by-burning are wearing. Is Professor Nemuro a professor in the 70s? *scratches head* SKU actually tells us when the fire tragedy happens doesn't it? Approximately?

So in that sense he is a future tool, not a past tool. Hmm. *chews thoughtfully on idea*
At any rate more good fodder for Mikage-centric fanfics right here. Get writing authors!

But with Ruka...does Ruka really have potential still? Once Juri has been milked for all the Shiori-manipulation she can be milked for? And presumably Akio is planning on raising up a new generation of duelists, from a new student council, and has done that many times before. Thus Juri's usefulness is outlived (she wasn't the victor). So Ruka is not needed. So Ruka can die. emot-gonk

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#19 | Back to Top05-07-2009 01:28:08 PM

Aine Silveria
Pumpkin Bride
From: Allegan, MI
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 2098

Re: Did Ruka really die?

sharnii wrote:

But with Ruka...does Ruka really have potential still? Once Juri has been milked for all the Shiori-manipulation she can be milked for? And presumably Akio is planning on raising up a new generation of duelists, from a new student council, and has done that many times before. Thus Juri's usefulness is outlived (she wasn't the victor). So Ruka is not needed. So Ruka can die. emot-gonk

As I mentioned, it's not for Juri that Ruka could be kept, but for others, the newer generation. Potentially any of the nameless fencing admirers could become centered on Ruka and become something else.

And, perhaps, Ruka may end up as stuck as Mikage once was (still is?), and will end up being the leader of the next Black Rose Circle.


http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m526/aines_pixels/mikageirgsig02-2012.png

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#20 | Back to Top05-07-2009 04:06:38 PM

Bluesky
Chpn Dlst
From: Your window
Registered: 10-25-2008
Posts: 1939
Website

Re: Did Ruka really die?

Lady Chani wrote:

sharnii wrote:

But with Ruka...does Ruka really have potential still? Once Juri has been milked for all the Shiori-manipulation she can be milked for? And presumably Akio is planning on raising up a new generation of duelists, from a new student council, and has done that many times before. Thus Juri's usefulness is outlived (she wasn't the victor). So Ruka is not needed. So Ruka can die. emot-gonk

As I mentioned, it's not for Juri that Ruka could be kept, but for others, the newer generation. Potentially any of the nameless fencing admirers could become centered on Ruka and become something else.

And, perhaps, Ruka may end up as stuck as Mikage once was (still is?), and will end up being the leader of the next Black Rose Circle.

This is an interesting theory, and I like it. emot-smile So following on from this, I'd like to ask 'what would Ruka's reason for coming back be'?


/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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#21 | Back to Top05-07-2009 08:06:21 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: Did Ruka really die?

Lady Chani wrote:

sharnii wrote:

But with Ruka...does Ruka really have potential still? Once Juri has been milked for all the Shiori-manipulation she can be milked for? And presumably Akio is planning on raising up a new generation of duelists, from a new student council, and has done that many times before. Thus Juri's usefulness is outlived (she wasn't the victor). So Ruka is not needed. So Ruka can die. emot-gonk

As I mentioned, it's not for Juri that Ruka could be kept, but for others, the newer generation. Potentially any of the nameless fencing admirers could become centered on Ruka and become something else.

And, perhaps, Ruka may end up as stuck as Mikage once was (still is?), and will end up being the leader of the next Black Rose Circle.

....that black rose idea is very good. I might have to write fic for that now.


20 threads dead so far.

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#22 | Back to Top05-12-2009 03:21:53 AM

Soukougnan
Black Rosarian
From: home. sort of.
Registered: 01-02-2009
Posts: 373

Re: Did Ruka really die?

do it.


what-- where did i go?

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#23 | Back to Top05-12-2009 03:46:59 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: Did Ruka really die?

Soukougnan wrote:

do it.

I have a previous project I'm working on but once I get that squared away I think I might have to. It's a good premise.


20 threads dead so far.

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