You are not logged in.

Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#26 | Back to Top07-13-2008 08:57:31 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I still say that a big part of Anthy's motivation is to see if Utena will catch her. According to Dios, who I think is a fairly trustworthy source (maaaaybe?), what Anthy truly needs is a Prince she can believe in. But Anthy is fucked up, and she knows that. So why would any true Prince save her? She's the Witch, after all, the monster that the Prince should be fighting against. I think it's safe to say that Anthy doesn't like herself very much, so she has a hard time trusting Utena, who seems to have no idea what she's doing or what she's talking about. To Anthy, it would probably appear (and correctly for the most part), that Utena was standing up for a shadow, a pretend-Anthy in Utena's own head, not the real, complicated Anthy we all know and love. But towards the end, she starts to actually buy that Utena could love and protect her, even knowing what she knows. And that more than anything else is probably what pushes her over the edge. OK, so I just totally changed my mind about why she jumped as I was writing this.

Seems to me now that she jumped out of pure despair, as an act of violence against herself, the hated Witch. It may be the only thing we see her do in the entire show without an ulterior motive. Well, I don't mean without really, just that the surface motive may be the strongest one, which is pretty rare for Anthy. Is it possible that Anthy was genuinely surprised when Utena caught her?


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
Honorary Hat Mafia Member

Offline

 

#27 | Back to Top07-13-2008 11:21:45 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

On a gut level, I have absolutely no doubt that Anthy's jump was sincere.  Ironically, I think I'm so certain of this precisely because it's so out of character for her.  Anthy just... doesn't manipulate that way.  She'll manipulate untraceably, like when she plays with Nanami during the filler episodes.  She'll manipulate more overtly with her fake cheerfulness, as she does to control Miki, or with her fake fake indifference, as she does to control Utena.  But does she ever manipulate by pretending to be miserable and desperate?  Not even when she's controlling Utena, who's predisposed to believe that Anthy is miserable, does Anthy put on a facade of misery.

I understand this reluctance on Anthy's part thus: Anthy is miserable, and Anthy, unlike her brother, is uncomfortable manipulating people with the truth.  That's understandable.  Anthy has had to bottle up her own misery to keep herself sane.  The power of that bottled misery is such that it changes the outcome of a duel when she realizes that Utena reminds her of Dios, which momentarily uncorks that inner bottle.  And since Anthy will never voluntarily use her misery to manipulate, any expression of misery we see from her in the series must be absolutely genuine.  That includes her attempted suicide and her sword-reinforced line to Utena a few episodes later regarding how girls can't be princes.

Offline

 

#28 | Back to Top07-13-2008 06:05:57 PM

Duelist Megu
Ruthless Deflorist
From: Calgary, AB
Registered: 12-07-2007
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I really agree with Satyreyes here.  While I don't think we can know precisely what would have been the result of a successful jump, I don't think Anthy would manipulate that way, because she remains functional through all these manipulations and charades by ignoring her real feelings of misery.  That pain is too powerful to be wielded the way she'd wield the customer-service false smile she operates with every day.  Therefore, such a dramatic show of pain has to be real.

Offline

 

#29 | Back to Top07-14-2008 12:22:08 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Hmm...if we assume she's making an honest effort to kill herself, we have to account for how she fits that into her role as the rose bride, yes? But what if she's been in the coffin so long she's forgotten it's a coffin? The swords are apart from death, they draw no blood, so they wouldn't count, but perhaps if she spilled blood...the problem is she might have forgotten after all these years that it's not just the swords with no fatal potency, it's everything around her. Her inability to die is not something the flaunts in the series, and it strikes me as entirely possible she's forgotten all about it, since her brother certainly never flaunts this fact in front of her, though he does seem more aware of it. (Jumping out of a moving vehicle or balancing a large platform on a single car are not things a person does if they sense their own mortality.)

But that difference would make sense, wouldn't it? It's so often Anthy's job to appear weak, breakable, mortal. Maybe she's forgotten she's not. A failed suicide attempt, regardless of how it failed, would be a strong reminder, and no doubt something to fuel the string of confessions that comes shortly after.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

Offline

 

#30 | Back to Top07-14-2008 04:36:52 AM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I'm going to respectfully disagree with satyreyes and interpret it from a more pessimistic standpoint. The way I look at it, everything that Anthy says and does is a calculated move towards one ultimate purpose, from the very beginning of the series until Utena opens her coffin in the last episode. I'm pretty certain Anthy can't die and I'm pretty certain she knows it, so attempting "suicide" here can't even be considered a cry for help much less an attempt to end her own suffering. She knew Utena would catch her, despite the conflict and betrayal she was feeling. Anthy probably knows Utena better than she knows herself.

At that point Utena was completely fed up with the duels and everything, so Anthy does what she always does and plays with her emotions and ideals. Utena wants to be a prince who saves people, so Anthy puts herself in danger; nothing new there. Utena values values sincerity and compassion, so Anthy "comes clean" and admits how she supposedly really feels (after many nights of buidling up to it with, "Miss Utena, the truth is I..."). Lo and behold, it's super effective, and Utena plays one more round of the game.

I'm not saying that the Rose Bride is a single-minded automaton with no heart or soul, though that argument can defintiely be made. Maybe she's just forgotten who and what she is like Giovanna said. But until the moment she's freed, Anthy consistently demonstrates one thing, and that's her devotion to Akio. I just think everything makes more sense (and is generally creepier) if she's doing it all for him.

Offline

 

#31 | Back to Top07-14-2008 06:36:57 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Creepier yes, but also...smaller somehow. In your interpretation...if Akio and Anthy basically have one driving will, Akio's...then is Akio surprised at the end when she leaves? How would he be surprised if he's been controlling everything all along? Where does the surprise come in? Is it just that Utena is so amazing that she bends Anthy to her own will and compels her to become "real"?


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
Honorary Hat Mafia Member

Offline

 

#32 | Back to Top07-14-2008 08:31:08 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

OnionPrince wrote:

At that point Utena was completely fed up with the duels and everything, so Anthy does what she always does and plays with her emotions and ideals. Utena wants to be a prince who saves people, so Anthy puts herself in danger; nothing new there. Utena values values sincerity and compassion, so Anthy "comes clean" and admits how she supposedly really feels (after many nights of buidling up to it with, "Miss Utena, the truth is I..."). Lo and behold, it's super effective, and Utena plays one more round of the game.

I have to disagree with this. By this point (well more like since episode 33), Utena has been doubting herself and her aspiration to become a prince. This has been going on throughout the story arc, including Utena changing her clothes (when she goes on a date with Akio; compare it to her wearing the girl's uniform in episode 12), thinking that the ring she got from the prince didn't suit her etc. Notice how she gives Akio more attention than to Anthy and by doing that she puts herself in the role of a girl in love and not that of the prince that she had been aspiring to become. Also note that Anthy is torn about who is playing her prince: on one hand there is Akio who she has as her own (since there is nothing to tear them apart, until this is what Anthy does in the end on her own) and on the  other hand there is Utena who she can't have because Utena has fallen for Akio (and because she's a girl, as Anthy put it herself later on. Though this didn't matter in the end either.). The following scene after what happens on the roof (or wherever that was), is where Utena is wearing her ring again and goes to the duelling arena and as Touga points out, for Anthy's sake. Anthy offers her the letter and says it's still possible to turn back but Utena refuses because she has chosen a role to play (a friend/prince). The very first scene of this episode was of little Utena saying she would become a prince, and the following scene shows Utena taking off her ring - by the end, things have come in full circle.

TL;DR Point being, I think we are shown tiny fragments of Anthy's true self during the series (most notably ep 12 duel, ep 25 duel, this scene in ep 37 being the most significant up to this point of the series) which is why I believe Anthy wasn't manipulating Utena in that scene.

PS. Also note that we are shown the full flashback of that scene in the penultimate episode and this is what triggers Utena to do something about Anthy's situation - she knows that Anthy is not merely the Rose Bride and that she doesn't have to suffer for all eternity.


The Saionji Support Squad:
Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

Offline

 

#33 | Back to Top07-14-2008 11:29:37 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I'm actually agnostic on the question of what exactly Anthy thought would happen when she jumped.  I wouldn't rule out the possibility that she knew Utena would catch her.  Even if she didn't know, I can't say whether she expected to die, or to be injured, or to land unharmed on her feet.  I don't think any of these possibilities is inconsistent with my belief that she jumped out of despair, though the jump becomes more or less symbolic depending on what she thought would happen.

OnionPrince, you make a strong argument.  If I can paraphrase you, I understand you as saying, "since everything played out exactly as Akio and Anthy wanted right up until the end, it's as likely as anything that everything Akio and Anthy did was conscious manipulation to achieve this end."  This argument relies on the assumption that Anthy wanted all of this, at least for Akio's sake if not for her own.  That's possible, but let me suggest an alternative.

Akio needs Utena to pursue the duels even after he's destroyed her nobility in his mind and hers.  This requires her to feel she's protecting something, and Anthy is It.  The problem is that Anthy actually likes Utena and wants to protect her from this bullshit if she can do so without directly betraying her brother.  (We know Anthy likes Utena from evidence in episode 12 -- remember Anthy's vision of Utena smiling across Touga's abandoned lunch table at her.)  At first Akio is a bit worried, as his reaction to the disappearance of the Sword of Dios early in the third arc betokens, but then he remembers that he's a fricking awesome puppetmaster and starts playing Anthy the same way he's playing Utena.  With carefully titrated levels of psychological abuse, he drives her to all the "the truth is I..." stuff, and eventually to the jump from the balcony.  All these sentiments are completely genuine on Anthy's part, just as Akio intended them to be.

Offline

 

#34 | Back to Top07-15-2008 01:31:05 AM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Stormcrow wrote:

In your interpretation...if Akio and Anthy basically have one driving will, Akio's...then is Akio surprised at the end when she leaves? How would he be surprised if he's been controlling everything all along?

I think Akio would be all the more surprised that Anthy left him if she had been so absolutely devoted to him until then. Akio had assumed that Anthy was still in her coffin and she was still going to help further his ultimately futile quest, because she'd never given him a reason to expect otherwise before.

I'm not saying that their wills are as one; Anthy made her bed (coffin?) and she made it a point to lie in it. There are no doubt at least a few instances where Anthy's true self comes through, and it seems like Anthy fenuinely likes Utena sometimes, but I don't think she ever let such feelings get in the way of Akio's game. Not until the very end, of course.

Offline

 

#35 | Back to Top10-01-2008 02:38:54 PM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 506

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Ah yes, always very very late with all the fun stuff....


First off: most of your points are awesome and i enjoyed reading every one of them emot-biggrin

school-eng101

Just going to throw a few more out there..

In the final episodes we see that Akio has been there done that... As by his body language... (well hey there, my sister is getting stabbed to death.. i'm sipping on a drink.. and i think i'm cool.. whatever) emot-mad (ass)

So this Final duel called revolution is nothing new to him... he still has yet to break the barrier and move on...

SO in saying THAT...

I believe Anthy expected Akio to "take control" and somehow hurt/kill utena... Knowing what was to come she felt throwing herself from the building would be a way to prevent this struggle... It was her "choice" to either stay and play the games with Akio... or Help Utena... And at that moment she felt she couldn't decide...

Of course... After the series is all done with.. this is the FIRST time Anthy breaks the norm and leaves the academy, the games, her brother, and the duels behind.

The dress represents her ties to the game... to her brother.. and to everything the rose bride stands for... Then, when she is attacked by swords, she is naked... showing this is who she really is. She puts on the facade' of being a witch whilst inside the rose bride outfit... however, when she is bare... it is her true self.

So when Utena finds her within the coffin and attempts to rescue her... this was the first time Anthy had seen such "nobility" and Love/Friendship/What have you... from any previous duelist... It showed dedication... And i think that if Utena wouldn't have stumbled her way to the coffin, the cycle would have continued... and there would have been no impact at all..

SO seeing as Utena DID put forth the effort EVEN though she was betrayed (by the shell? or even anthy herself) It showed Anthy.. "truth."

In saying all of that..

Basically, the Suicide attempt... was anthy's way of saying... I cant choose between brother or friend...

(i mean shit, if i knew i had to kill someone who cared so much for me... i wouldnt exactly be up for it regardless of how 'evil' i might be...)

I'll get back to this one later.. I'll let yall chew on it for a while emot-biggrin

Offline

 

#36 | Back to Top10-01-2008 06:53:26 PM

Hedgehogey
Framed Landscaper
Registered: 01-30-2008
Posts: 430

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I think she would liquidly reform like the Terminator.

Offline

 

#37 | Back to Top10-01-2008 07:08:38 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Hedgehogey wrote:

I think she would liquidly reform like the Terminator.

I think the juxtaposition between KissFromARose's post and this one is the funniest thing I've seen all day.

emot-rofl

Offline

 

#38 | Back to Top10-01-2008 07:56:59 PM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Some fun extra points:
Just because Anthy can't "be murdered" doesn't mean she can't kill herself. emot-aaa 2 dif things in SKU logic.
Also she doesn't have to be aiming for the end result of "dying", to feel the need and engage in the cathartic act of leaping off a tall building.
Suicide for suicide's sake perchance? (the desire to escape? self-punishment? wanted to fly like Mike?)

Offline

 

#39 | Back to Top10-02-2008 11:25:57 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 506

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I'd have to say self punishment...

It might've been her way of "cutting" cause.. people cut to "feel a pain that they can't feel"...

Although i dont know that jumping from a building would allow you to feel much, but if she liquify reforms.. like ..some believe o.O thenmaybe she would feel a tingling sensation!

I still stick to my guns though!

Offline

 

#40 | Back to Top10-02-2008 02:33:13 PM

End of the Tour
Ballgoer
From: The Nowhere Islands
Registered: 09-11-2008
Posts: 143

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

It's also possible that, while Anthy wouldn't really die from a successful suicide attempt, she might be out of commission for a while, leading the current round of duels might still be declared a mistrial of sorts.  Ohtori Academy may mess with people's memories, but I don't know if this could happen with such a fine granularity as to erase only the memory of her suicide while keeping the rest of Utena's mental state roughly the same, and on the other hand it seems like direct evidence of the supernatural outside of the dueling arena (or things closely related to dueling, like Nemuro Memorial Hall) would... break some key illusion that makes the whole thing run smoothly, perhaps?


Sometimes life is about making difficult sandwiches.

Offline

 

#41 | Back to Top10-02-2008 07:57:33 PM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1107

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

brian wrote:

Anthy is a supernatural being who cannot die. She is also a 14-year who can die. She also appears to be a traumatized and nearly catatonic 7-year old who is beyond death. There is no contradiction oddly enough.

That is so zen and so like what Ikuhara would say..... and I can't really argue with it either.


I subscribe to the Personal cannon bit- suicide as a reset button. I think she had done it before, too.


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

Offline

 

#42 | Back to Top10-03-2008 12:30:26 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Anthiena wrote: I subscribe to the Personal cannon bit- suicide as a reset button. I think she had done it before, too.

Ooh I'd never thought of this being part of Anthy's personal canon behavior...but I like it. I think it's her!
I think I might try and work that into a fanfic... emot-tongue

Offline

 

#43 | Back to Top10-03-2008 08:05:52 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

sharnii wrote:

Anthiena wrote: I subscribe to the Personal cannon bit- suicide as a reset button. I think she had done it before, too.

Ooh I'd never thought of this being part of Anthy's personal canon behavior...but I like it. I think it's her!
I think I might try and work that into a fanfic... emot-tongue

Please include the will of the universe rolling past and apologizing whenever Anthy has to be resurrected...


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
Honorary Hat Mafia Member

Offline

 

#44 | Back to Top10-03-2008 08:22:14 AM

End of the Tour
Ballgoer
From: The Nowhere Islands
Registered: 09-11-2008
Posts: 143

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Stormcrow wrote:

Please include the will of the universe rolling past and apologizing whenever Anthy has to be resurrected...

...aaah, the crazy crossover thoughts, they burn.  Chu-Chu is not emergency rations!


Sometimes life is about making difficult sandwiches.

Offline

 

#45 | Back to Top10-04-2008 04:48:25 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

Stormcrow wrote: Please include the will of the universe rolling past and apologizing whenever Anthy has to be resurrected...

ROFL emot-rofl emot-rofl
Another great fanfic idea!

Offline

 

#46 | Back to Top08-11-2011 08:07:51 AM

Louchan
Rose Bride
Registered: 11-08-2006
Posts: 100

Re: Anthy takes the plunge?

I don't know if anyone else will agree with me on this, but this has always been my impression:

Anthy has a main body, and also one (or even more!) moving around in the "real world".
The real body of Anthy is locked up in a coffin. The body that we see through out most of the show is just one of many. If that body would die, a new one would spawn.
Had Anthy jumped off that building, that body would have died but a new one would appear shortly afterwards. I believe the same goes for each time she's stabbed by the million swords of hatred. They destroy and kill that body, but a new one will appear.
The reason why I think Anthy might even be able to have more than one body present at the same time is mainly because of this scene: http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/10770-2/Series_ep26_093.jpg

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB 1.2.23
© Copyright 2002–2008 PunBB
Forum styled and maintained by Giovanna and Yasha
Return to Empty Movement